RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
At 16:49 12/24/03, Dr. Donald J. Weinshank wrote: Well, I would be interested in knowing more about that. What do you mean by reconstruction? I know of some efforts which take the argument, If this text sounds like this in Greek, what would it sound like in Hebrew, assuming that it was originally in Hebrew. In the introduction Kahana explains his methodology. He used many sources and his knowledge of Hebrew and Judaism to reconstruct the text. DS Daniel Stuhlman Chicago, IL 60645 ddstuhlman @ earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/liblob.htm === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
Thanks. I will look into this. A group of us from the shul got together at a friend's house for dinner tonight, a wonderful way to mark the occasion on our own terms. I described this makhloket for our Rabbi, and he instantly mentioned the Kahana work as well. I will have to try to find a copy to answer my original question. ...snip... I have a copy of Ha-sefarim ha-hitzonim (The hidden books i.e. Apocrypha) in Hebrew. This is a reconstruction of the original Hebrew and not a translation of the Greek. Abraham Kahana is the editor and Makor Publishing, Jerusalem was the publisher of the 1978 ed. I drew a blank at www.alljudaica.com but got a couple of hits AbeBooks http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=231368918 Nothing at Amazon. Got a hit at http://www.hollanderbooks.com/cat10.htm But no hits at MSU, Midwest Libraries, etc. Now I am intrigued and wonder how he justified his reconstruction. Thanks for the information. === Enjoy the rest of the chag. -- Daniel Stuhlman Chicago, IL 60645 ddstuhlman @ earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/liblob.htm _ Dr. Don Weinshank Professor Emeritus Comp. Sci. Eng. 1520 Sherwood Ave., East Lansing MI 48823-1885 Ph. 517.337.1545 FAX 517.337.2539 http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weinshan === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
I have read some of the Apocrypha and also books from the DSS in Hebrew at the Hebrew University library (the main library on Mt. Scopus - Har Hatzofim: as you well know there are many other libraries within the HUJ in their main campus as well as branches). They have one of the best collection I have ever seen. By the way, some of you may be able to help me with a research I am doing on the canonization of the Tanakh's books. Within all the books I have read I did not find any list of criteria used by the Rabbis who concluded which books to recognize orwhich books to set aside for further studies, or to reject. Rabbi Arye Kaplan has some details on inspiration but he does not give a list of criteria neither. Does anyone know of a book (s) that may include an accurate criteria used by the actual Rabbis who closed the canon? The Mishna and the Gemara use some figure of speech in relation to some of the books and the way they quoted these books may give an idea of how they view their inspiration, but never give a concise criteria. My understanding is that such criteria is no longer available. If any of you can help me with any information, please contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It can be in Hebrew, Aramaic, Spanish, Judaeo-Arabic, Greek, Russian, French, German, Ladino, or any Romance language. It can also be in English. Hag sameach! Frantz === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
I don't remember where I read it, but I read that it's easy to see that I Maccabees was translated into Greek from Hebrew, since the text is full of Hebraicisms, Hebrew idioms that were translated very literally (sp.?) into Greek. I think there are also some problems in the Greek text that can be deduced to come from problems in the translation process. At JTS, I once came across a book that had a Hebrew translation of the first 4 chapters of I Maccabees (up to the purification of the Temple), as part of a special Hanukkah Evening Service. The Hebrew for some of the poetical parts had blank lines for some of the verses, indicating someone's judgment that the text of the poem had become corrupted and was missing parts of some verses, according to the understanding of the poetic structure. Chodesh Tov, Happy Chanukah, Shabbat Shalom, and Shavua Tov! -Stanley Nachamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
Sid Z Leiman's *The Canonization of Hebrew Scripture: the Talmudic and Midrashic Evidence* is the definitive study. === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
So far as I know, the text exists ONLY in Greek. The standard Rabbinic gloss In the days of Mattathias, son of Yohanan, the heroic Hasmonean Kohen, and in the days of his sons, a cruel power arose... (See Reuven Hammer: OHR HADASH, Rabbinical Assembly and United Synagogue, 2003, p. 160) is just that, a gloss. It is NOT source text. The Rabbis clearly wanted to preserve the miracle of the oil and, equally clearly, did NOT want to preserve the military history. The Goldwurm, Zlotowitz, Scherman, CHANUKAH--ITS HISTORY, OBSERVANCE AND SIGNIFICANCE, ArtScroll Mesorah Publications, 1981...1998 see the matter somewhat differently (p. 13). = As outlined in 'A History of the Chanukah Period' s later in this volume, the famous 'miracle of the lights,' when a one-day supply of pure olive oil burned for eight days, took place three years after the beginning of the Hasmonean revolt. That is the only miracle that the Talmud (Shabbos 21b) mentions in its brief description of the Chanukah events. The Al HaNissim liturgy, however, which recounts ... the festival's origin and which is inserted into the Chanukah prayers, tells a different tale. There, the eight-day miracle of the oil is not even mentioned. There, the emphasis is on the miracles of the military triumph. Al HaNissim tells how the Syrian-Greeks conquered the Jews and sought to wrest them from the Torah and commandments and how God came to Israel's defense, enabling them to overcome' the strong, the many, the impure, the wicked, and the wanton,' bringing about' a great victory and salvation. = I have attached JPG of a longer section from p. 34 of the ArtScroll book. This argues that the texts were written originally in Hebrew (I think most scholars would agree.) but were not canonized because the canon had already been closed by that point (I think most scholars would DISAGREE sharply with this assumption. There are some who argue that the canon was finally sealed in response to the fact that the emerging Christian church had essentially closed its canon. Most scholars would agree that the Tanakh was closed around the years 90-100 CE in Yavneh. If that is so, there would be some other reason why Maccabees I and II were not included.) Chag sameach. P.S. I sent the following Chanukah greeting to a number of friends and want to share it. Happy Chanukah, Chanukah, Chanukka, Channukah, Hanukah, Hannukah...whatever. For a holiday which has no Hebrew texts and only a few Talmudic references, this is great! Here is the Gemara on the Rabbi Anon's mishnah: They (Seleucid Greeks) tried to kill us. We won (at least through Shimon, circa 140 B.C.E.). Let's eat (latkes and sufganiot kosherdelight.com/Sufganiot.htm). Chag sameach!! _ Dr. Don Weinshank Professor Emeritus Comp. Sci. Eng. 1520 Sherwood Ave., East Lansing MI 48823-1885 Ph. 517.337.1545 FAX 517.337.2539 http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weinshan == HaSafran - The Electronic Forum of the Association of Jewish Libraries Submissions for HaSafran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listserver at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org/
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
Dear Dr. Weinshank, Thank you. I realize the original Hebrew text no longer exists, but I thought there might be some modern Hebrew translations of the extant Greek text. Chanuaka sameach. Shmuel Ben-Gad, Gelman Library, George Washington University. == HaSafran - The Electronic Forum of the Association of Jewish Libraries Submissions for HaSafran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listserver at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org/
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
I know that there are translations of I Maccabees from the Greek back into Hebrew (some stand-alone editions, some within a Hebrew translation of other books of the Apocrypha). I don't know, however, what editions are currently in print. The Tanakh canon may have been closed in 90-100 C.E., but that doesn't mean that any book written before that date was eligible for canonization. For books to be eligible, they had to have be written (or thought to have been written, some may say) before the cessation of prophecy, placed in Ezra's time (ca. 444 B.C.E.). The ArtScroll Chanukah is an interesting book. The first sections of the book paraphrase an English translation of parts of I and II Maccabees (interpolating some additional material from traditional sources). It also discusses and examines the apocryphal book of Judith (and Hebrew sources of that story), Megilat Antiochus, and the story of the martyred mother and her seven sons, among other things. A big section of it establishes a chronology of the Second Temple period, managing to place the establishment of Chanukah in 165 B.C.E., agreeing with secular historians (though some place it in 164 B.C.E.), as opposed to other Jewish sources which date Chanukah to about 143 B.C.E. In the Jewish Timeline Book (I don't remember the exact title, but it has a chronology of Jewish history providing the context of world history), also from an Orthodox viewpoint, there is harsh criticism on the way ArtScroll went about establishing its chronology; e.g., saying they misinterpreted sources. Happy Chanukah to everyone! -Stanley Nachamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Authority Control Librarian (currently on leave) City University of New York __ == HaSafran - The Electronic Forum of the Association of Jewish Libraries Submissions for HaSafran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listserver at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org/
RE: [ha-Safran]: I Maccabees in Hebrew
At 08:35 12/24/03, you wrote: Dear Dr. Weinshank, Thank you. I realize the original Hebrew text no longer exists, but I thought there might be some modern Hebrew translations of the extant Greek text. I have a copy of Ha-sefarim ha-hitzonim (The hidden books i.e. Apocrypha) in Hebrew. This is a reconstruction of the original Hebrew and not a translation of the Greek. Abraham Kahana is the editor and Makor Publishing, Jerusalem was the publisher of the 1978 ed. Daniel Stuhlman Chicago, IL 60645 ddstuhlman @ earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/liblob.htm == HaSafran - The Electronic Forum of the Association of Jewish Libraries Submissions for HaSafran, send to: Hasafran at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listserver at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 at osu.edu AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org/
