[Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
Oops, forgot hit hit reply-all the first time, well spotted by Niklas... -- Forwarded message -- From: Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com Date: 5 May 2013 14:22 Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility To: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me The fact that it doesn't build and that the last change is from 2007 the *is* the warning that it is completely unmaintained and not the way to do things today. (One could even say that by making it build on 7.6, I have removed this warning and given the illusion that everything is fine.) That only makes sense if you assume everybody is familiar with Haskell and its culture. But that neglects trying to make it attractive to people who aren't. Of course I agree that it would be better if there were warnings on their web sites that said sorry guys, this project is dead now. I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. Something like that would make a lot of sense to me. Still I'd say that in this case, the fact that it did not build, hasn't had a single change in the last half decade, and that you cannot find any recent discussion about it anywhere on the Internet, make it pretty clear what is going on here, even for non-technical people. Half a decade is nothing to most programming cultures. A newbie looks for sample code and blames himself if he can't get it working. Please don't say that it's my culture's fault. From your story it sounds like you have a problem with developer simplemindedness and management wars idiocy. Nobody is forcing you to be part of that. There are a lot of places ... Perhaps I'd rather help those who need it than preach to the converted. You summed it up nicely as two problems: (1) bitchy managers and (2) untrained programmers. I'd like to use Haskell to help with (2) but I still have to work around (1). My plan is to start by winning the hearts and minds of the developers before sticking my neck out far enough to get it severed. There's another plan where I'm pitching VCs about a start up, in which case I'd have a lot more control, but I'd still have to prove that my elite imperative squad were willing and able to learn a new trick before committing myself. I've actually learned quite a lot from this discussion and that largely enables me to preempt any Rails-day problems. But that's only me. Lots of people might be flirting with Haskell just out of curiosity and bouncing off it for these reasons. There have been a lot of good ideas suggested about how to minimise that, and I'd also throw in that it would be cool if people could tell the compiler to behave as it did half a decade ago when the code was written so people could prove to themselves that the code works in principle, then they could clock the compiler forward little by little, reading its release notes along the way. That's a lot friendlier than being confronted with an apparently endless series of error messages when you've barely learned to read them, and not even knowing if you're making things better or worse. If the desired compiler/modules version was in the makefile, that, I think, would be a general solution. The FPComplete thing also looks helpful. I could use that to sell the language to newbies. The mercenaries would come later though. Thanks to everybody for helping out with this. Adrian. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
On 05/05/2013 11:41 AM, Adrian May wrote: Half a decade is nothing to most programming cultures. A newbie looks for sample code and blames himself if he can't get it working. I ran into this kind of trouble when I was starting to learn Haskell. I had error messages like that : test.hs:1:8: Could not find module `List' It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. Use -v to see a list of the files searched for. I then proceeded to figure how to include this haskell98 package, and later ran into other problems. Perhaps this message could be hard coded to tell the user that this is deprecated code, and he should use Data.List instead. This certainly would be friendlier, but I am unsure it would change anything about adoption: * all major tutorials are up to date * almost everyone understands the concept of bit rot, and, as it has been demonstrated, it is much more manageable than with other production ready languages * google works fairly well Everything changes all the time in the javascript and ruby world, but this doesn't seem to reduce adoption. There have been several people pointing out the case of PHP. I would say that with an ageing codebase, you can't upgrade your distribution because the little things that change will break your code in places you don't even imagine. With a 10 years old Haskell program, you can choose to upgrade the codebase, or you can stick with your old binary. it would be cool if people could tell the compiler to behave as it did half a decade ago when the code was written so people could prove to themselves that the code works in principle, then they could clock the compiler forward little by little, reading its release notes along the way. But how would that work ? You would need some archaeologist to tell you how old the code is so that you could give the proper flags to the compiler. But if you know how to do that, then you know exactly how to fix the code. But you already can do this all by yourself : just install every compilers. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 8:25 PM, Simon Marechal si...@banquise.net wrote: I ran into this kind of trouble when I was starting to learn Haskell. I had error messages like that : test.hs:1:8: Could not find module `List' It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. Use -v to see a list of the files searched for. I then proceeded to figure how to include this haskell98 package, and later ran into other problems. Perhaps this message could be hard coded to tell the user that this is deprecated code, and he should use Data.List instead. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I've seen such suggestions in GHC errors before. If so, does that mean there's some sort of mechanism in the compiler already in place for such error recognition? Like some simple pattern stuff? If not, I think that it might not be bad to consider this stuff (misused packaged, changed semantics that create compiler errors), and to put something into place for future modifications. This could make it a lot easier to deal with unmaintained code. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Follow up on type error diagnosis for DSLs in Haskell
Dear all (and in particular Alberto G. Corona and Stephen Tetley), First of all, thanks Stephen for pointing out our work to Alberto. Second, you may be interested to know that I just (as in two weeks ago) obtained a grant to hire a PhD student to scale the work of the ICFP '03 paper (as mentioned by Stephen) up to Haskell 2011 (or whatever variant will be appropriate). The plan is to first prototype this work in the UHC compiler, and, if succesful, build it into the GHC. I shall surely send out a job vancancy on some of the Haskell mailing lists. best, Jurriaan Hage ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
+1 Tom El May 5, 2013, a las 7:55 AM, Raphael Gaschignard dasur...@gmail.com escribió: On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 8:25 PM, Simon Marechal si...@banquise.net wrote: I ran into this kind of trouble when I was starting to learn Haskell. I had error messages like that : test.hs:1:8: Could not find module `List' It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. Use -v to see a list of the files searched for. I then proceeded to figure how to include this haskell98 package, and later ran into other problems. Perhaps this message could be hard coded to tell the user that this is deprecated code, and he should use Data.List instead. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I've seen such suggestions in GHC errors before. If so, does that mean there's some sort of mechanism in the compiler already in place for such error recognition? Like some simple pattern stuff? If not, I think that it might not be bad to consider this stuff (misused packaged, changed semantics that create compiler errors), and to put something into place for future modifications. This could make it a lot easier to deal with unmaintained code. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
I'd say: - If a package has UNMAINTAINED (perhaps also DEPRECATED?) somewhere in its title/description, don't do anything. - Otherwise if the package hasn't been updated for past 3 months, send a quarterly reminder (including the information under what conditions the reminder is sent). 2013/5/5 Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Raphael Gaschignard dasur...@gmail.comwrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I've seen such suggestions in GHC errors before. If so, does that mean there's some sort of mechanism in the compiler already in place for such error recognition? Like some simple pattern stuff? If not, I think that it might not be bad to consider this stuff (misused packaged, changed semantics that create compiler errors), and to put something into place for future modifications. This could make it a lot easier to deal with unmaintained code. There's some very limited capability now; the GHC folks are tossing around ideas for something more general like that. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
The case of WASH is a pity. Architecturally It was more advanced that many recent haskell web frameworks. The package would have been a success with little changes in the DSL syntax. I suspect that there are many outstanding packages with great ideas abandoned, like WASH 2013/5/5 Brandon Allbery allber...@gmail.com On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Raphael Gaschignard dasur...@gmail.comwrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I've seen such suggestions in GHC errors before. If so, does that mean there's some sort of mechanism in the compiler already in place for such error recognition? Like some simple pattern stuff? If not, I think that it might not be bad to consider this stuff (misused packaged, changed semantics that create compiler errors), and to put something into place for future modifications. This could make it a lot easier to deal with unmaintained code. There's some very limited capability now; the GHC folks are tossing around ideas for something more general like that. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad http://sinenomine.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Alberto. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
And we can have something on hackage that does this check automatically! And we can put unmaintained in the description! And then we can leave it unmaintained! Unmaintained should have its own flag, I think... On 5/5/2013 2:28 PM, Petr Pudlák wrote: I'd say: - If a package has UNMAINTAINED (perhaps also DEPRECATED?) somewhere in its title/description, don't do anything. - Otherwise if the package hasn't been updated for past 3 months, send a quarterly reminder (including the information under what conditions the reminder is sent). 2013/5/5 Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com mailto:dburke...@gmail.com On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com mailto:petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me mailto:m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Follow up on type error diagnosis for DSLs in Haskell
Jurriaan: That is very good news for the people that create DSLs for industry, for haskell teaching and in general for the Haskell comunity. For a context, I add here the ticket http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7870 and the discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/haskell-cafe/PrPtjw5GsHI Thanks Alberto 2013/5/5 Jurriaan Hage j.h...@uu.nl Dear all (and in particular Alberto G. Corona and Stephen Tetley), First of all, thanks Stephen for pointing out our work to Alberto. Second, you may be interested to know that I just (as in two weeks ago) obtained a grant to hire a PhD student to scale the work of the ICFP '03 paper (as mentioned by Stephen) up to Haskell 2011 (or whatever variant will be appropriate). The plan is to first prototype this work in the UHC compiler, and, if succesful, build it into the GHC. I shall surely send out a job vancancy on some of the Haskell mailing lists. best, Jurriaan Hage -- Alberto. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] help understanding zlib space leak
Dear haskellers,
I'd like assistance figuring out a strange space leak using zlib
package.
To make it easier to reproduce I've come up with the following snippet
that pretty much resumes up the problem I'm trying to solve:
-- omitting imports and function signatures
encode = compress . L.fromChunks
main = do { hSetBinaryMode stdout True
; hSetBinaryMode stdin True
; hSetBuffering stdin NoBuffering
; hSetBuffering stdout NoBuffering
; loop []
}
where loop buff
| length buff == 64 = L.hPut stdout (encode buff) loop []
| otherwise = do { eof - hIsEOF stdin
; when (not eof) (fmap (: buff) (B.hGetSome
stdin 512) = loop)
}
N.B.: Removing the `compress' function from the above code also removes the
space leak.
Now, feeding the above program with ~8GB worth of binary data:
$ uname -a
Linux mephisto.localhost.localdomain 3.8.7-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Apr 13
09:01:47 CEST 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
$ ghc --version
The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.3
$ ghc -W -Wall -rtsopts --make -O2 test.hs
$ sudo dd if=/dev/sda bs=4K count=2048K | ./test +RTS -M1M -s /dev/null
...
8589934592 bytes (8.6 GB) copied, 277.263 s, 31.0 MB/s
...
2 MB total memory in use (0 MB lost due to fragmentation)
...
Which is fine. However, monitoring the RSS size is a different story:
$ while pidof test; do ps -o rss= -p $(pidof test); done | tail
16967
25620
16967
25628
16967
25628
16967
25628
16967 # ~16M
0
I know the RSS usually overestimates the memory consumption but the
problem is that it is forever growing.
The following I found very intriguing:
* `+RTS -hc` gives me no hint about whats wrong [at least I couldn't see one];
* `+RTS -M1M` doesn't produce an error;
* removing the `compress' functions makes the problem disappear;
I couldn't figure these out and I don't think this is matter of
strictness, though. Has anyone seen this before?
Thanks in advance,
~dsouza
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
Just to be clear, is WASH beyond redemption, or would it be worth reviving again? If so, why? Cheers, Darren On 2013-05-05 1:48 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: The case of WASH is a pity. Architecturally It was more advanced that many recent haskell web frameworks. The package would have been a success with little changes in the DSL syntax. I suspect that there are many outstanding packages with great ideas abandoned, like WASH 2013/5/5 Brandon Allbery allber...@gmail.com On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Raphael Gaschignard dasur...@gmail.comwrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I've seen such suggestions in GHC errors before. If so, does that mean there's some sort of mechanism in the compiler already in place for such error recognition? Like some simple pattern stuff? If not, I think that it might not be bad to consider this stuff (misused packaged, changed semantics that create compiler errors), and to put something into place for future modifications. This could make it a lot easier to deal with unmaintained code. There's some very limited capability now; the GHC folks are tossing around ideas for something more general like that. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad http://sinenomine.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Alberto. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 10:46:23PM +0200, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The case of WASH is a pity. Architecturally It was more advanced that many recent haskell web frameworks. The package would have been a success with little changes in the DSL syntax. Could you briefly summarise the difference between WASH's approach and that of the more recent frameworks? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] help understanding zlib space leak
Sorry, I should've removed the pid number from the output. The following should be correct: $ sudo dd if=/dev/sda bs=4K count=2048K | ./test +RTS -M1M -s /dev/null ... 8589934592 bytes (8.6 GB) copied, 243.525 s, 35.3 MB/s 41,942,119,192 bytes allocated in the heap 228,827,904 bytes copied during GC 104,048 bytes maximum residency (6 sample(s)) 24,408 bytes maximum slop 2 MB total memory in use (0 MB lost due to fragmentation) ... $ while pidof test /dev/null; do ps -o rss= -p $(pidof test); sleep 1; done | tail 32056 32408 32832 33264 33684 34100 34560 34900 35384 35816 # ~ 35MB Thanks! ~dsouza ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: Backward compatibility
Well, the main one is that is in the group of continuation based frameworks, like other advanced web frameworks such are seaside (smalltalk) ocsigen (ocaml) or coccoon (JavaScript) . That means that it is not based on the event model, and the flow is in a single procedure. This makes the navigation much more readable, as a console application. But WASH is not continuation based, but log based, and the log was stored in the client, that means that it was also restful to a certain level. That approach solved the big problems of memory usage and serialization of continuation based frameworks. It also solved the problem of form safety before the development of formlets and the widespread of applicative functors. But I do not pretend to resucitate WASH. I just miss a continuation of this line of work , but this was not the case. I took a deeper look at WASH after developping MFlow, years after the discontinuation of WASH. MFlow coincidentally, is log based in a different way. I supposed that it was based on continuations, and I didn't like them, but it was not. If the project would have been prosecuted, who knows...It had a edge over other web developments in other languages, but it was hard to understand, just because the approach was original and unique. I consider MFlow as a continuation of WASH in philosophical terms. 2013/5/6 Tom Ellis tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2...@jaguarpaw.co.uk On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 10:46:23PM +0200, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The case of WASH is a pity. Architecturally It was more advanced that many recent haskell web frameworks. The package would have been a success with little changes in the DSL syntax. Could you briefly summarise the difference between WASH's approach and that of the more recent frameworks? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Alberto. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
Just checking the repo wouldn't work. It may still have some activity but not be maintained and vice-versa. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com wrote: On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
On 6 May 2013 09:42, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: Just checking the repo wouldn't work. It may still have some activity but not be maintained and vice-versa. ok, how about this: if the maintainer feels that their repo and maintenance activities are non-injective they can additionally provide an http-accessible URL for the maintenance activity. Hackage can then do an HTTP HEAD request on that URL and use the Last-Modified response header as an indication of the last time of maintenance activity. I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but actually this would allow you to point hackage to a blog as evidence of maintenance activity. I like the idea of just pinging the code repo. Conrad. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com wrote: On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
But what if the package is already perfect? Jokes aside, I think that activity alone wouldn't be a good indicator. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Conrad Parker con...@metadecks.org wrote: On 6 May 2013 09:42, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: Just checking the repo wouldn't work. It may still have some activity but not be maintained and vice-versa. ok, how about this: if the maintainer feels that their repo and maintenance activities are non-injective they can additionally provide an http-accessible URL for the maintenance activity. Hackage can then do an HTTP HEAD request on that URL and use the Last-Modified response header as an indication of the last time of maintenance activity. I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but actually this would allow you to point hackage to a blog as evidence of maintenance activity. I like the idea of just pinging the code repo. Conrad. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com wrote: On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
If there's a github link in the package url, it could check the last update to the default branch. If it's more than 6 months ago, an email to the maintainer of is this package maintained? can be sent. If there's no reply in 3 months, the package is marked as unmaintained. If the email is ever responded to or a new version is uploaded, the package can be un-marked. - Clark On Sunday, May 5, 2013, Lyndon Maydwell wrote: I've got it! The answer was staring us in the face all along... We can just introduce backwards-compatibility breaking changes into GHC-head and see if the project fails to compile for x-time! That way we're SURE it's unmaintained. I'll stop sending emails now. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Clark Gaebel cgae...@uwaterloo.cawrote: If there's a github link in the package url, it could check the last update to the default branch. If it's more than 6 months ago, an email to the maintainer of is this package maintained? can be sent. If there's no reply in 3 months, the package is marked as unmaintained. If the email is ever responded to or a new version is uploaded, the package can be un-marked. - Clark On Sunday, May 5, 2013, Lyndon Maydwell wrote: But what if the package is already perfect? Jokes aside, I think that activity alone wouldn't be a good indicator. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Conrad Parker con...@metadecks.orgwrote: On 6 May 2013 09:42, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: Just checking the repo wouldn't work. It may still have some activity but not be maintained and vice-versa. ok, how about this: if the maintainer feels that their repo and maintenance activities are non-injective they can additionally provide an http-accessible URL for the maintenance activity. Hackage can then do an HTTP HEAD request on that URL and use the Last-Modified response header as an indication of the last time of maintenance activity. I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but actually this would allow you to point hackage to a blog as evidence of maintenance activity. I like the idea of just pinging the code repo. Conrad. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com wrote: On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
I don't think that activity in the repo has too much to do with something being maintained. Maintainance is a thing humans commit to, so the question of whether something is maintained should be a question to a human. I often push a quick build failure fix for my packages, some of which I would still in not want to call maintained. On Mon 06 May 2013 10:57:49 SGT, Clark Gaebel wrote: If there's a github link in the package url, it could check the last update to the default branch. If it's more than 6 months ago, an email to the maintainer of is this package maintained? can be sent. If there's no reply in 3 months, the package is marked as unmaintained. If the email is ever responded to or a new version is uploaded, the package can be un-marked. - Clark On Sunday, May 5, 2013, Lyndon Maydwell wrote: I've got it! The answer was staring us in the face all along... We can just introduce backwards-compatibility breaking changes into GHC-head and see if the project fails to compile for x-time! That way we're SURE it's unmaintained. I'll stop sending emails now. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Clark Gaebel cgae...@uwaterloo.ca wrote: If there's a github link in the package url, it could check the last update to the default branch. If it's more than 6 months ago, an email to the maintainer of is this package maintained? can be sent. If there's no reply in 3 months, the package is marked as unmaintained. If the email is ever responded to or a new version is uploaded, the package can be un-marked. - Clark On Sunday, May 5, 2013, Lyndon Maydwell wrote: But what if the package is already perfect? Jokes aside, I think that activity alone wouldn't be a good indicator. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Conrad Parker con...@metadecks.org wrote: On 6 May 2013 09:42, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: Just checking the repo wouldn't work. It may still have some activity but not be maintained and vice-versa. ok, how about this: if the maintainer feels that their repo and maintenance activities are non-injective they can additionally provide an http-accessible URL for the maintenance activity. Hackage can then do an HTTP HEAD request on that URL and use the Last-Modified response header as an indication of the last time of maintenance activity. I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but actually this would allow you to point hackage to a blog as evidence of maintenance activity. I like the idea of just pinging the code repo. Conrad. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com wrote: On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to be unmaintained since D.M.Y. Best regards, Petr For those packages that give a repository, a query could be done automatically to see when it was last updated. It's not the same thing as 'being maintained', but is less annoying for those people with many packages on hackage. Doug
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage checking maintainership of packages
Yes -- being maintained, and have a lot of commit activity are not the same thing. There are many simple libraries which do not require much ongoing develop. They are designed to do something of limited scope, and they only need to be updated when something breaks. I have thought that a more interesting metric might be to send the maintainer an email when their package stops building automatically on hackage. Then assign some weight based on whether or not they fix things, and how often. - jeremy On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me wrote: I don't think that activity in the repo has too much to do with something being maintained. Maintainance is a thing humans commit to, so the question of whether something is maintained should be a question to a human. I often push a quick build failure fix for my packages, some of which I would still in not want to call maintained. On Mon 06 May 2013 10:57:49 SGT, Clark Gaebel wrote: If there's a github link in the package url, it could check the last update to the default branch. If it's more than 6 months ago, an email to the maintainer of is this package maintained? can be sent. If there's no reply in 3 months, the package is marked as unmaintained. If the email is ever responded to or a new version is uploaded, the package can be un-marked. - Clark On Sunday, May 5, 2013, Lyndon Maydwell wrote: I've got it! The answer was staring us in the face all along... We can just introduce backwards-compatibility breaking changes into GHC-head and see if the project fails to compile for x-time! That way we're SURE it's unmaintained. I'll stop sending emails now. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Clark Gaebel cgae...@uwaterloo.ca wrote: If there's a github link in the package url, it could check the last update to the default branch. If it's more than 6 months ago, an email to the maintainer of is this package maintained? can be sent. If there's no reply in 3 months, the package is marked as unmaintained. If the email is ever responded to or a new version is uploaded, the package can be un-marked. - Clark On Sunday, May 5, 2013, Lyndon Maydwell wrote: But what if the package is already perfect? Jokes aside, I think that activity alone wouldn't be a good indicator. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Conrad Parker con...@metadecks.org wrote: On 6 May 2013 09:42, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: Just checking the repo wouldn't work. It may still have some activity but not be maintained and vice-versa. ok, how about this: if the maintainer feels that their repo and maintenance activities are non-injective they can additionally provide an http-accessible URL for the maintenance activity. Hackage can then do an HTTP HEAD request on that URL and use the Last-Modified response header as an indication of the last time of maintenance activity. I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but actually this would allow you to point hackage to a blog as evidence of maintenance activity. I like the idea of just pinging the code repo. Conrad. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Doug Burke dburke...@gmail.com wrote: On May 5, 2013 7:25 AM, Petr Pudlák petr@gmail.com wrote: Hi, on another thread there was a suggestion which perhaps went unnoticed by most: -- Forwarded message -- From: Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me Date: 2013/5/4 ... I would even be happy with newhackage sending every package maintainer a quarterly question Would you still call your project X 'maintained'? for each package they maintain; Hackage could really give us better indications concerning this. This sounds to me like a very good idea. It could be as simple as If you consider yourself to be the maintainer of package X please just hit reply and send. If Hackage doesn't get an answer, it'd just would display some red text like This package seems to
