Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
nomeata: > Hi, > > Am Freitag, den 22.08.2008, 10:13 +0100 schrieb Magnus Therning: > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:32 AM, David Bremner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), > > > Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: > > >> I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would > > >> be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active > > >> maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a > > >> hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable > > >> and the DD responsible gets whined at. > > > > > > Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the > > > debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is > > > not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is > > > not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are > > > interested in one or two packages). > > > > > > Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, > > > compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I > > > guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian > > > perl style team. > > > > To add to this I suspect that there are more people involved in the > > perl team than there even are DDs with ghc6 installed, but maybe I'm > > just being negative. Maybe the time is ripe for a Debian haskell > > team? I know the idea has been floated before on the Debian Haskell > > list but I don't think it's ever gained any momentum. > > I had it floated to the debian-haskell mailing list once, but as you > said, there were not much responses. > > The Debian Perl Group (which was started by me some years ago) is indeed > a good example for good library package maintenance. What made it > successful was, in my opinion, people with constant devotion (that was > not me :-)) and a faible for developing tools for the team. Have a look > at http://pkg-perl.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/qareport.cgi and you see > how it was possible to maintain this number of packages with just a few > people. > > Incidentally, a few days ago Ian Lynagh was asking if someone wants to > take over his haskell packages, so if there were a group to be formed, > it could start with all the base packages. > > OTOH, this leaves the question open of who will maintain the compiler > itself. Of course, this is a totally different thing than maintaining > cabalized libraries and so far, no one has stepped up to give it a shot. Yes, the key is to find a motivated Debian maintainer who can build a coalition around them. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
Hi, Am Freitag, den 22.08.2008, 10:13 +0100 schrieb Magnus Therning: > On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:32 AM, David Bremner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), > > Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: > >> I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would > >> be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active > >> maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a > >> hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable > >> and the DD responsible gets whined at. > > > > Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the > > debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is > > not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is > > not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are > > interested in one or two packages). > > > > Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, > > compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I > > guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian > > perl style team. > > To add to this I suspect that there are more people involved in the > perl team than there even are DDs with ghc6 installed, but maybe I'm > just being negative. Maybe the time is ripe for a Debian haskell > team? I know the idea has been floated before on the Debian Haskell > list but I don't think it's ever gained any momentum. I had it floated to the debian-haskell mailing list once, but as you said, there were not much responses. The Debian Perl Group (which was started by me some years ago) is indeed a good example for good library package maintenance. What made it successful was, in my opinion, people with constant devotion (that was not me :-)) and a faible for developing tools for the team. Have a look at http://pkg-perl.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/qareport.cgi and you see how it was possible to maintain this number of packages with just a few people. Incidentally, a few days ago Ian Lynagh was asking if someone wants to take over his haskell packages, so if there were a group to be formed, it could start with all the base packages. OTOH, this leaves the question open of who will maintain the compiler itself. Of course, this is a totally different thing than maintaining cabalized libraries and so far, no one has stepped up to give it a shot. Greetings, Joachim -- Joachim "nomeata" Breitner Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://people.debian.org/~nomeata signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
Ketil Malde wrote: Christopher Lane Hinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Having a debianized cabal-install would be the biggest win in my book. If there were an unofficial debianized mirror of hackage, I probably wouldn't use it anyway. I might. I would. (I run Ubuntu at home, Debian on my personal mail/web server, and Debian at work.) I'd rather have all my software maintained by the distro's package-management system (if I can do it and still have access to the most recent versions). One of the things that made me tear my hair out when I first tried to learn Plone was that my Plone book, the Plone website, and Ubuntu all recommended different systems for installing Plone and all its dependencies, and IIRC they defaulted to different versions as well. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
magnus: > On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:32 AM, David Bremner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), > > Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: > >> > >> I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would > >> be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active > >> maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a > >> hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable > >> and the DD responsible gets whined at. > > > > Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the > > debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is > > not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is > > not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are > > interested in one or two packages). > > > > Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, > > compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I > > guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian > > perl style team. > > To add to this I suspect that there are more people involved in the > perl team than there even are DDs with ghc6 installed, but maybe I'm > just being negative. Maybe the time is ripe for a Debian haskell > team? I know the idea has been floated before on the Debian Haskell > list but I don't think it's ever gained any momentum. And good integration will only serve to increase the number of users, and build further critical mass. It has to start somewhere people! -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:32 AM, David Bremner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), > Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: >> >> I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would >> be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active >> maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a >> hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable >> and the DD responsible gets whined at. > > Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the > debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is > not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is > not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are > interested in one or two packages). > > Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, > compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I > guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian > perl style team. To add to this I suspect that there are more people involved in the perl team than there even are DDs with ghc6 installed, but maybe I'm just being negative. Maybe the time is ripe for a Debian haskell team? I know the idea has been floated before on the Debian Haskell list but I don't think it's ever gained any momentum. /M ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
Christopher Lane Hinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Having a debianized cabal-install would be the biggest win in my book. If > there were an unofficial debianized mirror of hackage, I probably wouldn't > use it anyway. I might. I generally want to use newer versions of development stuff (i.e. Haskell libraries etc) than is available in official repos. Were there an unofficial, cutting edge repo at hackage, I could just add it to my sources.list, instead of compiling stuff myself from darcs repos or hackage tarballs. Even if we only get a handful of users, this would be an important testing stage for packages before submitting them to official Debian (and Ubuntu) repos. I'm all for it. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: > > I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would > be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active > maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a > hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable > and the DD responsible gets whined at. Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are interested in one or two packages). Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian perl style team. One of the main tools that makes this possible is dh-make-perl, which is the moral equivalent of cabal-debian, I guess. Just as important is the shared version control setup and team procedures. David ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: > > I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would > be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active > maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a > hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable > and the DD responsible gets whined at. Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are interested in one or two packages). Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian perl style team. One of the main tools that makes this possible is dh-make-perl, which is the moral equivalent of cabal-debian, I guess. Just as important is the shared version control setup and team procedures. David ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:52:00 -0400 (EDT), Christopher Lane Hinson wrote: > > I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would > be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active > maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a > hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable > and the DD responsible gets whined at. Fundamentally I think Lane is correct, but it is worth noting that the debian perl team maintains 938 CPAN modules. The effort involved is not trivial, but the number of consistently active people involved is not so huge (maybe 5 core people, and lots of people who are interested in one or two packages). Now, there are only 1217 registered installs of ghc6 on debian, compared to 74000+ perl installs (essentially everyone installs perl I guess), so it is not clear that the critical mass exists for a debian perl style team. David ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
Can the Debian/Haskell interest parties say something about who's doing what in this area? Is there hope for a concrete effort to import large numbers of hackage apps and tools into Debian? -- Don I'm not a DD, but I think uploading ~500 hackage packages to debian would be a bit of a no-no. Debian packages are expected to have active maintainers both upstream and on the debian side, and to build without a hitch on ten different architectures, or they don't make it into stable and the DD responsible gets whined at. Having a debianized cabal-install would be the biggest win in my book. If there were an unofficial debianized mirror of hackage, I probably wouldn't use it anyway. --Lane ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:19 AM, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote > > > > Can the Debian/Haskell interest parties say something about > who's doing what in this area? Is there hope for a concrete > effort to import large numbers of hackage apps and tools into Debian? I made a stab at it, but ran into issues with build dependencies that I didn't have the time to solve, so I switched to just importing the packages I needed. Currently, we at SeeReason are building packages for our own use based on Ubuntu Hardy Heron. People are welcome to use them at their own risk. If it breaks your computer, you get to keep both halves. People are also welcome to use our autobuilder, which we use to build the packages. All packages can be found at deb.seereason.com. We are trying to limit the amount of time we spend on these tools, but would be happy to provide pointers to self-starters and/or discuss options for other people to work on them. Cliff ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
At Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:10:08 +0300, Kari Pahula wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 02:28:36PM -0700, Jeremy Shaw wrote: > > - the cdbs extension for supporting haskell (the one posted on > >debian-haskell mailing list a while ago) > > I keep the newest version of that at > http://people.debian.org/~kaol/repos/hlibrary/ > > One thing that it doesn't do yet is to register the -doc packages. Cool. We made some modifications including some patches for the -doc stuff I believe. I'll try to do a merge and get some patches back to you. j. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
kaol: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 02:28:36PM -0700, Jeremy Shaw wrote: > > - the cdbs extension for supporting haskell (the one posted on > >debian-haskell mailing list a while ago) > > I keep the newest version of that at > http://people.debian.org/~kaol/repos/hlibrary/ > > One thing that it doesn't do yet is to register the -doc packages. Can the Debian/Haskell interest parties say something about who's doing what in this area? Is there hope for a concrete effort to import large numbers of hackage apps and tools into Debian? -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 02:28:36PM -0700, Jeremy Shaw wrote: > - the cdbs extension for supporting haskell (the one posted on >debian-haskell mailing list a while ago) I keep the newest version of that at http://people.debian.org/~kaol/repos/hlibrary/ One thing that it doesn't do yet is to register the -doc packages. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] PRE-ANNOUNCE: cabal-debian (automatically debianize cabal packages)
At Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:06:23 +0100,
Ian Lynagh wrote:
> > Any reason the manual steps here aren't automated?
>
> There's not much benefit from automating them (although if someone did
> so, with a nice way to edit the description etc, then it would be
> handy). The vast majority of the time in creating Debian packages is:
We (at seereason) have a tool, cabal-debian, for automating the
process. It has the following features:
1. automatically generates a working debian directory from the .cabal
file with no user intervention (most of the time). It copies as much
information from the .cabal file to the debian directory as possible.
2. automatically calculates build-depends during initial (or
subsequent) debianization
3. checks that .cabal build-depends and debian build-depends are
in-sync during dpkg-buildpackage run.
4. automatically calculates install dependencies of binary .debs
during dpkg-buildpackage run. (by writing substvar files and
using ${haskell:Depends} in debian/control).
5. can be used to create new debian/control and debian/changelog for
an already debianized package. (Useful when information copied from
the .cabal file changes in the .cabal file).
As you state, most generated packages would need additional polish
before they could be uploaded to Debian.
The Future
--
cabal-debian seems good enough for general release. I can imagine
cabal-debian being used in three ways:
1. a way for users to quickly debianize a cabal library for local use
(because going around the debian package system often leads to pain
in the long run).
2. a way for debian/ubuntu developers to create a starting point for
a real Debian package.
3. a way to standardize on policy issues, by encapsulating them in a
tool which "Does It Right".
4. a way to create an unofficial Haskell repository with lots of
packages
In my opinion, cabal-debian is quite suitable for (1) already. (2) and
(3) require agreement from the Haskell Debian community as to what the
best practices really are, and patches to make that happen.
cabal-debian currently uses:
- haskell-devscripts
- the cdbs extension for supporting haskell (the one posted on
debian-haskell mailing list a while ago)
- haskell-utils
The basic build is done using the cdbs extension for Haskell (which
uses haskell-devscripts). But the version dependencies are updated
during the build process using a script from haskell-utils.
For (4), it should be pretty easy to use cabal-debian plus this
autobuilder:
http://src.seereason.com/autobuilder/
to easily create a repository of debian packages that not quite up to
debian standards. Whether you would *want* such a thing is obviously
an issue for debate: quantity vs quality. But the technology already
exists if the desire is there.
What's Next?
We are working on getting cabal-debian uploaded to hackage, but we
have some patches against haskell-devscripts, and a patch against
haskell-utils.
The patch against haskell-utils has not been accepted, and may
possibly be rejected due to some issue with the way Debian's
autobuilders work?
It does not make much sense to upload cabal-debian to hackage until
the supporting tools are up-to-date. So I guess we need to get our
patches accepted upstream. (modifying them if needed).
We have also started a tool that is essentially cabal-install +
cabal-debian. It has the same purpose as cabal-install, but it
debianizes the packages on-the-fly.
How You Can Help
We, (at seereason), make no claims that cabal-debian does anything the
right way, the best way, or even a sensible way.
Our primary requirements are:
1. that cabal-debian generates sane debianization with minimal pain
2. that the generated debian packages can be built by our
autobuilder. This essentially means that you should be able to build
them in three steps:
i. check out the source
ii. install the build-depends listed in debian/control
iii. run dpkg-buildpackage
I believe this is slight issue with haskell-utils based packages
which have a procedure more like:
i. check out the source
ii. run update-haskell-control
iii. install build-dependencies
iv. run dpkg-buildpackage
If update-haskell-control generated >= build-depends instead of =
build-depends, then things would work ok with our autobuilder, but
possibly not with Debian's?.
Anyway, the point is, we are wide open to suggestions and improvements
to cabal-debian. In fact, nothing would make us happier than someone
coming along and taking over the whole thing ;)
Obtaining
-
cabal-debian can be obtained (via darcs get) here:
http://src.seereason.com/cabal-debian/
but you will need other dependencies from here:
http://src.seereason.com/
and you will need a patch to haskell-devscripts from here:
http://src.seereason.com/quilt/haskell-devscripts-quilt/
and haskell-utils from here:
http://src.seereason.com/quilt/haskell-utils-quilt/
Example
---
H
