Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
OK, there's the option of replacing working tools with hype. It worked for C++, and it worked for Java. Pity I don't have the slightest idea how to work up a hype for Haskell. Who would want such a hype? Why not simply start picking up fruits before the mainstream notices? ;-) Actually, many do. ;) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Hello Joachim, Friday, December 15, 2006, 10:31:35 PM, you wrote: Because a mainstream language has more tools, more libraries, and an easier job search. once i've got job offer just because i know Haskell. although the job was nothing common with FP, he searched programmers on this maillist :) -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
John Meacham schrieb: I think we need some sort of signal, to show that one means I understand why haskell doesn't allow this in general, but am interested in a compiler specific trick or some theoretical background on the issue rather than I am learning haskell and am somewhat confused due to preconcieved notions fostered by my experience with other languages, can someone help me? The usual answer to this kind of problem is splitting up the forums. E.g. a haskell-learners list for those who should be saying I'm learning Haskell, a haskell-tricks one for the more esoteric (high-level, whatyanameit) stuff. Possibly haskell-libraries for library announcements and questions of the form where do I find the library for doing foobar. Just my 2c. There may be better courses of action (or non-action). Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 10:40:10PM +0100, Joachim Durchholz wrote: John Meacham schrieb: I think we need some sort of signal, to show that one means I understand why haskell doesn't allow this in general, but am interested in a compiler specific trick or some theoretical background on the issue rather than I am learning haskell and am somewhat confused due to preconcieved notions fostered by my experience with other languages, can someone help me? The usual answer to this kind of problem is splitting up the forums. E.g. a haskell-learners list for those who should be saying I'm learning Haskell, a haskell-tricks one for the more esoteric (high-level, whatyanameit) stuff. Possibly haskell-libraries for library announcements and questions of the form where do I find the library for doing foobar. But part of the fun of haskell-cafe is that it's where all the cool people hang out, so you can sit there and be dazzled by their arcane knowledge, and yet also find help for your more mundane problems. I don't think it hurts for a newbie to get a mixture of answers, including the simple ones that benefit them, along with a few to stretch their mind. -- David Roundy Department of Physics Oregon State University ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Hello Tomasz, Thursday, December 14, 2006, 11:32:33 PM, you wrote: complete compilers. Two years ago the only full compiler for C++ was Comeau, probably unknown to most C++ programmers. I am not sure about today, but I wouldn't bet that things improved. just because they don't know what sits at back of their compiler? :) someone tells me, that only 2.5 front-ends remain - comeau, gcc and probably MS. all other compilers use comeau, which is not full compiler but just front-end there is old joke that camel is a horse created by committee. Algol-68, Pl/1, Ada and now C++ becomes such large languages that no one can master them in full details -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Tomasz Zielonka schrieb: On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 09:56:57PM +0100, Joachim Durchholz wrote: OK, there's the option of replacing working tools with hype. It worked for C++, and it worked for Java. Pity I don't have the slightest idea how to work up a hype for Haskell. Who would want such a hype? Why not simply start picking up fruits before the mainstream notices? ;-) Because a mainstream language has more tools, more libraries, and an easier job search. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Steve Downey schrieb: The STL, however, brings a very applicative programming model into an otherwise imperative language. And, it turns out that the template language is a turing complete pure functional language, making possible some very interesting type based metaprogramming. AFAIK there's some limitation built into the template language (nesting depth or something) that makes the template language Turing-incomplete. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Brian Hulley wrote:
Yet I'm sure most people who did a computer science degree some decades ago
remember the old joke about passing things by name or value for what it's
Wirth... :-)
Wikipedia says:
“Whereas Europeans generally pronounce my name the right way ('Ni-klows Wirt'),
Americans invariably mangle it into 'Nick-les Worth'. This is to say that
Europeans call me by name, but Americans call me by value.”
:)
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 12:17:08AM +0100, Joachim Durchholz wrote: Haskell needs... bullet-proof compilers, all of this working right out of the box. (I see that this all is being worked on.) Come on, C++ got popular in spite of having NO bullet-proof, let alone complete compilers. Two years ago the only full compiler for C++ was Comeau, probably unknown to most C++ programmers. I am not sure about today, but I wouldn't bet that things improved. Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Tomasz Zielonka schrieb: On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 12:17:08AM +0100, Joachim Durchholz wrote: Haskell needs... bullet-proof compilers, all of this working right out of the box. (I see that this all is being worked on.) Come on, C++ got popular in spite of having NO bullet-proof, let alone complete compilers. OK, there's the option of replacing working tools with hype. It worked for C++, and it worked for Java. Pity I don't have the slightest idea how to work up a hype for Haskell. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 09:56:57PM +0100, Joachim Durchholz wrote: OK, there's the option of replacing working tools with hype. It worked for C++, and it worked for Java. Pity I don't have the slightest idea how to work up a hype for Haskell. Who would want such a hype? Why not simply start picking up fruits before the mainstream notices? ;-) Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Hi, Am Donnerstag, den 14.12.2006, 21:56 +0100 schrieb Joachim Durchholz: OK, there's the option of replacing working tools with hype. It worked for C++, and it worked for Java. Pity I don't have the slightest idea how to work up a hype for Haskell. IMHO, three is already a haskell hype, considering the increase of activity in the last two years or so. It’s just not a mainstream hype, but so far the hype target group has been very pleasant :-) Greetings, Joachim -- Joachim Breitner e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de ICQ#: 74513189 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Hello Joachim, Wednesday, December 13, 2006, 2:17:08 AM, you wrote: Actually, it's quite simple: following the ideology de jour and teaching-relevant support. are you remember title of Wirth's book? algorithms + data structures = programs. i think that Haskell is ideal language for teaching programming now (like Pascal was in 80's), because it teaches how to develop algorithms instead of focusing on implementation details. of course, you are right that fashion and availability drives actual teachers selection -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
On 12/13/06, Bulat Ziganshin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Joachim, Wednesday, December 13, 2006, 2:17:08 AM, you wrote: Actually, it's quite simple: following the ideology de jour and teaching-relevant support. are you remember title of Wirth's book? algorithms + data structures = programs. i think that Haskell is ideal language for teaching programming now (like Pascal was in 80's), because it teaches how to develop algorithms instead of focusing on implementation details. of course, you are right that fashion and availability drives actual teachers selection That's a good point too. Actually, though, my original comment about understanding the reasons for programming language adoption was not just meant to refer to adoption in an educational context, but also to the reasons why people adopt the languages they do for commercial (or research or free software) projects, as well; so, I don't think it's quite *that* simple, although I should have been more clear. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Base eight is just like base ten, really... if you're missing two fingers. -- Tom Lehrer ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Neil Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Talking to professional programmers, if I tell anyone I program in Haskell they nearly always say oh, Pascal, that's cool. You need to say askell... No one knows what functional programming is, Scheme/Lisp are the closest. Maybe we should try and hijack the phrase functional programming I think we should call it Abstraction Oriented Programming. It's got the oriented buzzword in it, and we don't need to tell folk that abstraction means more than one thing to us until we're sure they're OK. -- Jón Fairbairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Haskell is just too similar to Pascal. This makes me wonder how people pronounce Pascal. It's probably because I'm from Europe, but I put the stress on the second syllable. Pronouncing it like rascal is, well, funny :-). Greetings, Arie -- making someone not survive must surely count as non-verbal communication -- bring ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Arie Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haskell is just too similar to Pascal. This makes me wonder how people pronounce Pascal. It's probably because I'm from Europe, but I put the stress on the second syllable. Pronouncing it like rascal is, well, funny :-). For whatever it's worth, I'm American and have mainly heard Americans pronounce it with the stress on the second syllable -- however, when I mention programming in Haskell to other Americans, I get the oh, you mean Pascal? response sometimes too, even though I pronounce Haskell with the stress on the first syllable. I'm not sure why, since it's not as if anyone programs in Pascal anymore. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Never wear shorts with the name of your town across the ass if you live in Needham. -- Beth Murphy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Kirsten Chevalier wrote: since it's not as if anyone programs in Pascal anymore. Yet I'm sure most people who did a computer science degree some decades ago remember the old joke about passing things by name or value for what it's Wirth... :-) Brian. -- http://www.metamilk.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Brian Hulley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirsten Chevalier wrote: since it's not as if anyone programs in Pascal anymore. Yet I'm sure most people who did a computer science degree some decades ago remember the old joke about passing things by name or value for what it's Wirth... :-) I was kidding slightly. My first programming language was Pascal, but I guess I should be grateful that I didn't take the same course a year later, because then my first language would have been Java. In fact, a comment from Lyn Turbak, who taught the second-semester computer science class I took at Wellesley, is in some sense or another half of the reason why I'm participating in this discussion today -- a student (not me) asked him, why are we learning Pascal if you hate the language so much? and he explained, Historical accident... and talked about the reasons why Pascal ended up being a popular teaching language. Much later, I'm amazed at how few students ask this kind of question and how few teachers talk about the answers to them. I think this relates back to the point of the original discussion. People (except people on this mailing list, and a few similar fora) don't talk much about the reasons for choosing programming languages. When they do talk about it, it's usually very prescriptively oriented rather than descriptively oriented. I think that it would serve this community well if somebody was able to achieve a better understanding of the social reasons why some programming languages are adopted and some aren't. I think all of us already know that the reason isn't because some are better than others, but it might be time for someone to go beyond that. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt THEY CAN KILL YOU, BUT THE LEGALITIES OF EATING YOU ARE QUITE A BIT DICIER --David Foster Wallace ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Claus Reinke schrieb: but on the Pascal note: is there anything in Pascal that Haskell doesn't provide, and improves on (nested procedures, procedure parameters, distinguishing in and out parameters, types, ..)? it has been too long since my Pascal days, I don't remember.. Nothing that I'm aware of. You'd have to be careful which version of Pascal you mean, there were lots of dialects around. In general, however, I'm not sure whether contrasting Haskell to Pascal is a fruitful exercise. Pascal and C are nearer to each other than Haskell is to either of them after all. (Type classes, anonymous functions, type inference, just to name the first three that occurred to me...) apart from the communication problem of understanding Haskell as Pascal: if you're talking to someone who knows Pascal, it might not be a bad idea to position Haskell as a drastically modernized version of Pascal, to get the discussion of real merits going? No, not at all. IMHO. I think that Haskell is a step ahead of OO. The connection is a bit tenuous, but if you carry the Liskov Substitution Principle to its logical consequence, you end up disallowing any semantic changes in subclasses... and that means you don't need interface subclassing at all. And to implement those inhomogenous lists and iterators and whatnot, you show how you can do that in a functional language without the subclassing baggage. ... it might be useful to show how the design patterns from the Gang-of-Four book can be done in a functional language. And with less restrictions. Such a side-by-side comparison might help convince library writers and system architects (and these are among the more important people to win over anyway). Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Andreas Rossberg schrieb: Claus Reinke wrote: but on the Pascal note: is there anything in Pascal that Haskell doesn't provide, and improves on (nested procedures, procedure parameters, distinguishing in and out parameters, types, ..)? Subrange types, maybe? But I'm sure Oleg will show us that Haskell already has them. :-) Assigning to subrange types often requires a runtime check, so they can't be that easily mapped. (Unless you wrap them in Maybe or Exception, which I'd consider cheating.) Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Kirsten Chevalier schrieb: I think that it would serve this community well if somebody was able to achieve a better understanding of the social reasons why some programming languages are adopted and some aren't. I think all of us already know that the reason isn't because some are better than others, but it might be time for someone to go beyond that. Actually, it's quite simple: following the ideology de jour and teaching-relevant support. Teachers will teach what's mainstream ideology (I'm using ideology in a strictly neutral sense here). Pascal was popular because teachers felt that structured programming should be taught to the masses, and you couldn't abuse goto in Pascal to make a program unstructured. Later, universities shifted more towards economic usefulness. Which made C (and, later, Java) much more interesting ideologically. Teaching-relevant support means: readily available tools. I.e. compilers, debuggers, editor support, and all of this with campus licenses or open sourced. I don't think that Haskell can compete on the ideological front right now. That domain is firmly in the area of C/C++/Java. Erlang isn't really winning here either, but it does have the advantage of being connected to success stories from Ericsson. To really compete, Haskell needs what people like to call industrial-strength: industrial-strength compilers, industrial-strength libraries, industrial-strength IDEs. In other words, seamless Eclipse and Visual Studio integration, heaps and heaps of libraries, and bullet-proof compilers, all of this working right out of the box. (I see that this all is being worked on.) Teaching-relevant support is already in place, I think - there are several open-source interpreters and compilers available, and Haskell doesn't place an special requirements on editors, nor does it require a specialized environment (the bane of Smalltalk and Lisp). Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Benjamin Franksen schrieb: Joachim Durchholz wrote: These activities are among the major reasons why I'm finally prepared to get my feet wet with Haskell after years of interested watching. I'll probably fire off a set of newbie questions for my project, though it might still take a few days to get them organized well enough to do that (and to find the time for setting up the text). Hi Jo! Welcome to the club. It remains to be seen what proportion of my contributions belongs to problem space and what belongs to solution space ;-P (I think I did my share, now and then, on c.l.f to keep up your interest... ;-) Actually, I found out about Haskell-cafe only after comp.lang.haskell was set up - else I might have joined far earlier. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Hi, On 13 Dec 2006, at 00:17, Joachim Durchholz wrote: Kirsten Chevalier schrieb: I think that it would serve this community well if somebody was able to achieve a better understanding of the social reasons why some programming languages are adopted and some aren't. I think all of us already know that the reason isn't because some are better than others, but it might be time for someone to go beyond that. Actually, it's quite simple: following the ideology de jour and teaching-relevant support. Teachers will teach what's mainstream ideology (I'm using ideology in a strictly neutral sense here). Pascal was popular because teachers felt that structured programming should be taught to the masses, and you couldn't abuse goto in Pascal to make a program unstructured. Later, universities shifted more towards economic usefulness. Which made C (and, later, Java) much more interesting ideologically. Since the rise of Java, our university has been teaching almost nothing else. A short course in C, the FP course is being phased out. Some teachers had an interest in having Java knowledgeable kids graduating. I guess the industry also asked for Java knowledge in general. I think it's sad for the students. A language is sometimes more than just syntax, the paradigms it uses should be known, and I've seen too many students who have no clue what a pointer is, who cannot apply simply things such as map and filter ... I'm no haskell wizard, but the very basics I do grok. Teaching-relevant support means: readily available tools. I.e. compilers, debuggers, editor support, and all of this with campus licenses or open sourced. I don't think that Haskell can compete on the ideological front right now. That domain is firmly in the area of C/C++/Java. Erlang isn't really winning here either, but it does have the advantage of being connected to success stories from Ericsson. To really compete, Haskell needs what people like to call industrial-strength: industrial-strength compilers, industrial- strength libraries, industrial-strength IDEs. In other words, seamless Eclipse and Visual Studio integration, heaps and heaps of libraries, and bullet-proof compilers, all of this working right out of the box. (I see that this all is being worked on.) Having a(n important) company backing Haskell in a platform- independent way would certainly help, IMHO. But to convince people to use it, they need to be taught before they go out to find a job. -- Andy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Andy Georges schrieb: one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world We need a 'Dive into Haskell' book. That's for later. Getting those little annoyances out of the way (like those described on defmacro) is far more important. What you need so that non-experts can get their feet wet are: * A compiler. [FIXED] * Libraries for the application programmer. [MOSTLY FIXED] * The relevant information is available. [FIXED, I think] * Things work out of the box. [MOSTLY FIXED] * It's easy to find the relevant information. [OPEN] * A Haskell for Dummies book. Haskell is already 99% there. However, a dummies book would be premature - unless you really expect that the other items will be fully fixed by the time the book is out. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Hello Joachim, Monday, December 11, 2006, 12:01:42 PM, you wrote: one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world We need a 'Dive into Haskell' book. * It's easy to find the relevant information. [OPEN] what i mean is to fix this problem. there is lot of Haskell information that is spread over the air * A Haskell for Dummies book. there are a lot (look Learning wiki page). what we need now is more advanced books specialized in various areas - such as web development of sb+gui applications -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Bulat Ziganshin schrieb: Hello Joachim, Monday, December 11, 2006, 12:01:42 PM, you wrote: one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world We need a 'Dive into Haskell' book. * It's easy to find the relevant information. [OPEN] what i mean is to fix this problem. there is lot of Haskell information that is spread over the air Actually it's an overly difficult task, and I see this being addressed. Now that the information is available - I'm under the impression that only recently the various bits and pieces have come into existence or at least got an audience. I'm seeing a *lot* of finishing touches work in progress. (MissingH reorganisation, How to write my first Haskell program wiki page.) What I find even more encouraging is that this work is welcomed. These activities are among the major reasons why I'm finally prepared to get my feet wet with Haskell after years of interested watching. I'll probably fire off a set of newbie questions for my project, though it might still take a few days to get them organized well enough to do that (and to find the time for setting up the text). Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Joachim Durchholz schrieb: Bulat Ziganshin schrieb: Hello Joachim, Monday, December 11, 2006, 12:01:42 PM, you wrote: one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world We need a 'Dive into Haskell' book. * It's easy to find the relevant information. [OPEN] what i mean is to fix this problem. there is lot of Haskell information that is spread over the air Actually it's an overly difficult task, Sorry, I meant to write it's _not_ an overly difficult task. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Aim Of Haskell
Joachim Durchholz wrote: These activities are among the major reasons why I'm finally prepared to get my feet wet with Haskell after years of interested watching. I'll probably fire off a set of newbie questions for my project, though it might still take a few days to get them organized well enough to do that (and to find the time for setting up the text). Hi Jo! Welcome to the club. (I think I did my share, now and then, on c.l.f to keep up your interest... ;-) Cheers Ben ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
