Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-07 Thread C K Kashyap
Thanks Don!

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Don Stewart  wrote:
> That's a separate module, based on System.Process --
>
>    http://code.haskell.org/~dons/code/cpuperf/Process.hs
>
> ckkashyap:
>> Hi Dan,
>> This presentation is really nice.
>> I went over it a couple of times and I think this ppt will help me try
>> to use Haskell for things that I usually use Perl for :)
>>
>> A quick question - import Process bombs on my GHCI(The Glorious
>> Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.12.3) -what do I need to
>> do for that?
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Don Stewart  wrote:
>> > Gaius:
>> >> My usual rhetoric is that one-off, throwaway scripts never are, and
>> >> not only do they tend to stay around but they take on a life of their
>> >> own. Today's 10-line file munger is tomorrow's thousand-line ETL batch
>> >> job on which the business depends for some crucial data - yet the
>> >> original author is long gone and no-one dares modify in case it
>> >> breaks. So it is just good sense to use sound practices from the very
>> >> beginning.
>> >
>> > I gave a tech talk recently on using Haskell for scripting -- and it is
>> > built on the idea that today's throw away script is tomorrow's key piece
>> > of infrastructure -- so you better get the maintainance and safety story
>> > right:
>> >
>> >    http://donsbot.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/practical-haskell/
>> > ___
>> > Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> > Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Kashyap
>>
>



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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-07 Thread Don Stewart
That's a separate module, based on System.Process -- 

http://code.haskell.org/~dons/code/cpuperf/Process.hs

ckkashyap:
> Hi Dan,
> This presentation is really nice.
> I went over it a couple of times and I think this ppt will help me try
> to use Haskell for things that I usually use Perl for :)
> 
> A quick question - import Process bombs on my GHCI(The Glorious
> Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.12.3) -what do I need to
> do for that?
> 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Don Stewart  wrote:
> > Gaius:
> >> My usual rhetoric is that one-off, throwaway scripts never are, and
> >> not only do they tend to stay around but they take on a life of their
> >> own. Today's 10-line file munger is tomorrow's thousand-line ETL batch
> >> job on which the business depends for some crucial data - yet the
> >> original author is long gone and no-one dares modify in case it
> >> breaks. So it is just good sense to use sound practices from the very
> >> beginning.
> >
> > I gave a tech talk recently on using Haskell for scripting -- and it is
> > built on the idea that today's throw away script is tomorrow's key piece
> > of infrastructure -- so you better get the maintainance and safety story
> > right:
> >
> >    http://donsbot.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/practical-haskell/
> > ___
> > Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> > Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Kashyap
> 
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-07 Thread C K Kashyap
Hi Dan,
This presentation is really nice.
I went over it a couple of times and I think this ppt will help me try
to use Haskell for things that I usually use Perl for :)

A quick question - import Process bombs on my GHCI(The Glorious
Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.12.3) -what do I need to
do for that?


On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Don Stewart  wrote:
> Gaius:
>> My usual rhetoric is that one-off, throwaway scripts never are, and
>> not only do they tend to stay around but they take on a life of their
>> own. Today's 10-line file munger is tomorrow's thousand-line ETL batch
>> job on which the business depends for some crucial data - yet the
>> original author is long gone and no-one dares modify in case it
>> breaks. So it is just good sense to use sound practices from the very
>> beginning.
>
> I gave a tech talk recently on using Haskell for scripting -- and it is
> built on the idea that today's throw away script is tomorrow's key piece
> of infrastructure -- so you better get the maintainance and safety story
> right:
>
>    http://donsbot.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/practical-haskell/
> ___
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>



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Kashyap
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-06 Thread edgar klerks
Hi All,

Not a complete guide, but just something, which can help:

Perl6 is inspired by haskell. That was, how I end up by haskell. And I
believe a lot of people of the perl community got interested in haskell that
way. Maybe this works for some of collegues too. I still like perl, but
haskell is in many cases more productive. On the other hand perl has more
libs.

Greets,

Edgar
On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Mathew de Detrich wrote:

> I Think you misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say you should tell the
> programmers how to code, I said you should show the perl coders how Haskell
> has advantages over pearls without much cost
>
> On 06/09/2010 5:21 PM, "Stephen Tetley"  wrote:
>
> On 6 September 2010 03:46, Mathew de Detrich  wrote:
> > If they are perl programme...
> Now that's going to go down well...
>
> Maybe the original poster might want to soak up the company culture
> for a while before than telling co-workers how to do things.
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-06 Thread Mathew de Detrich
I Think you misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say you should tell the
programmers how to code, I said you should show the perl coders how Haskell
has advantages over pearls without much cost

On 06/09/2010 5:21 PM, "Stephen Tetley"  wrote:

On 6 September 2010 03:46, Mathew de Detrich  wrote:
> If they are perl programme...
Now that's going to go down well...

Maybe the original poster might want to soak up the company culture
for a while before than telling co-workers how to do things.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-06 Thread Stephen Tetley
On 6 September 2010 03:46, Mathew de Detrich  wrote:
> If they are perl programmers, they (should) understand perl very well. I
> would suggest to try explaining to them the obvious disadvantages of perl
> and the way that Haskell can cover those disadvantages without (much) of a
> compromise.

Now that's going to go down well...

Maybe the original poster might want to soak up the company culture
for a while before than telling co-workers how to do things.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Alexander Solla


On Sep 5, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Mathew de Detrich wrote:

Another thing you can say is that Perl is a very extreme language in  
design where as Haskell is more "general". This means the one thing  
Perl does, it does very well (expressing programming problems in the  
most concise/short possible way) but it has to sacrifice for it  
massively in other areas which end up costing much more in the long  
run. Most 'real' world problems do not require that amount of  
brevity, considering the massive cost that Perl brings for such a  
thing.


That doesn't sound right to me.  Perl's biggest weaknesses are  
traditionally:  (i) the syntax:  but those $'s and @'s are actually  
type annotations;  and (ii) "There's More Then One Way to Do It":  the  
existence of multiple approaches to solving a problem, instead of an  
"official" obvious choice.  This means that every programmer on the  
team either has to KNOW all the possible ways to solve a problem with  
Perl, or the programming team has to CHOOSE one and make it "policy"  
-- effectively picking out the nicest bits and sticking to that sub- 
language.


Depending on your point of view, Haskell does not compare particularly  
favorably with respect to "TMTOWTDI".  The whole Control.* hierarchy  
is the construction of custom control structures.  That's the whole  
point of "glue" languages.  You write custom control structures to  
support the chosen normal forms for expressing data and computations.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Mathew de Detrich
If they are perl programmers, they (should) understand perl very well. I
would suggest to try explaining to them the obvious disadvantages of perl
and the way that Haskell can cover those disadvantages without (much) of a
compromise.

Perl programs are either ones that are ridiculously short/concise, these are
one off scripts that become impossible to maintain (and even to read apart
from whoever coded the script). These perl scripts are typically shorter
then the equivalent Haskell ones. The other type of Perl scripts are the
ones that are fairly concise, and at least more maintainable/scalable. These
perl scripts tend to be the same size as the Haskell ones, except the
Haskell ones are type safe, have error checking and are much more
maintainable/scalable (the slideshow earlier with DonS shows this). Odds are
that the company probably has the latter of Perl scripts, so if you can show
them how Haskell can be just as excise (but not as extremely concise)
however have a lot more other benefits that will help a lot.

Another thing you can say is that Perl is a very extreme language in design
where as Haskell is more "general". This means the one thing Perl does, it
does very well (expressing programming problems in the most concise/short
possible way) but it has to sacrifice for it massively in other areas which
end up costing much more in the long run. Most 'real' world problems do not
require that amount of brevity, considering the massive cost that Perl
brings for such a thing.

Also show them quickcheck as well

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Michael Litchard wrote:

> I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
> perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
> to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
> to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
> for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
> lanugages.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Andrew Coppin

Michael Litchard wrote:

I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
lanugages


Rather than "how can I convince them to use Haskell for everything?", 
how about just convincing them to use it on a case-by-case basis. It's 
plausible there are scenarios where Haskell is *not* the best thing to 
use. And if you just tirelessly "evangelize" Haskell, them one has to 
wonder who's the bigot. ;-)


(That said, I really hate Perl...)

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Don Stewart
Gaius:
> My usual rhetoric is that one-off, throwaway scripts never are, and
> not only do they tend to stay around but they take on a life of their
> own. Today's 10-line file munger is tomorrow's thousand-line ETL batch
> job on which the business depends for some crucial data - yet the
> original author is long gone and no-one dares modify in case it
> breaks. So it is just good sense to use sound practices from the very
> beginning. 

I gave a tech talk recently on using Haskell for scripting -- and it is
built on the idea that today's throw away script is tomorrow's key piece
of infrastructure -- so you better get the maintainance and safety story
right:

http://donsbot.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/practical-haskell/
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Donn Cave
Quoth Ben Lippmeier ,
...
> Grandiose, hand-wavy assertions like "strong typing leads to
> shorter development times and more reliable software" don't work
> on people that haven't already been there and done that. When you
> try to ram something down someone's throat they tend to resist.

Though, I think those sentiments can be appreciated when expressed 
properly.  I mean, I can talk about how nice it is when my programs
work the first time I run them, without necessarily being grandiose
or trying to ram something down anyone's throat.

I guess everyone's different - some Perl programmers might really
respond to a nice Haskell program, if it isn't gratuitously
incomprehensible.  Others may be more interested in the rationale
behind the language's features, and only from there find any motivation
to try to understand the syntax.

Of course it's a good idea to feign interest in their views on
software engineering, etc., but mostly it comes down to your charisma.
Never worked for me, but good luck!

Donn Cave, d...@avvanta.com
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Chris Eidhof
On 5 sep 2010, at 09:28, Ben Lippmeier wrote:

> 
> On 05/09/2010, at 2:38 AM, Michael Litchard wrote:
> 
>> I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
>> perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
>> to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
>> to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
>> for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
>> lanugages.
> 
> Try to avoid religious arguments like "by using Perl you're living in a state 
> of sin", and focus on "look how much easier it is to do X in Haskell". 
> 
> Grandiose, hand-wavy assertions like "strong typing leads to shorter 
> development times and more reliable software" don't work on people that 
> haven't already been there and done that. When you try to ram something down 
> someone's throat they tend to resist. However, if you can provide something 
> tasty and appealing they'll eat it themselves. Write a nice program, show it 
> to your Perl programmer, and if they also think it's nice -- then you've 
> already won.

I've had success in situations with tight deadlines: the only way I got it done 
quickly and without bugs is by using Haskell (as opposed to PHP). Another place 
where you might have success is by writing a small compiler or interpreter for 
an internal language. Start small (in a niche, if you will) and expand upon 
that.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-05 Thread Ben Lippmeier

On 05/09/2010, at 2:38 AM, Michael Litchard wrote:

> I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
> perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
> to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
> to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
> for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
> lanugages.

Try to avoid religious arguments like "by using Perl you're living in a state 
of sin", and focus on "look how much easier it is to do X in Haskell". 

Grandiose, hand-wavy assertions like "strong typing leads to shorter 
development times and more reliable software" don't work on people that haven't 
already been there and done that. When you try to ram something down someone's 
throat they tend to resist. However, if you can provide something tasty and 
appealing they'll eat it themselves. Write a nice program, show it to your Perl 
programmer, and if they also think it's nice -- then you've already won.

Ben.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-04 Thread Jason Dagit
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Michael Litchard  wrote:
> I will be going into a situation where there are tasks that have yet
> to be automated, so I will be going after that before re-writing
> anything. But if I can come up with "here's why", there will be less
> eyebrows raised. Thanks for all feedback so far.

Perhaps give this talk:
  http://donsbot.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/practical-haskell/

Jason
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-04 Thread Michael Litchard
I will be going into a situation where there are tasks that have yet
to be automated, so I will be going after that before re-writing
anything. But if I can come up with "here's why", there will be less
eyebrows raised. Thanks for all feedback so far.

On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 10:21 AM, Gaius Hammond  wrote:
> My usual rhetoric is that one-off, throwaway scripts never are, and not only 
> do they tend to stay around but they take on a life of their own. Today's 
> 10-line file munger is tomorrow's thousand-line ETL batch job on which the 
> business depends for some crucial data - yet the original author is long gone 
> and no-one dares modify in case it breaks. So it is just good sense to use 
> sound practices from the very beginning.
>
>
> One of the features of Perl is that it will try to work even if you make type 
> errors (e.g. give it a scalar in place of a list, or a string instead of an 
> int). One day, however, it WILL fail. Haskell finds these types of bugs 
> upfront, and not when your pager goes off at 3am...
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> G
>
> --Original Message--
> From: Michael Litchard
> Sender: haskell-cafe-boun...@haskell.org
> To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org
> Subject: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.
> Sent: Sep 4, 2010 17:38
>
> I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
> perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
> to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
> to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
> for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
> lanugages.
> ___
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>
> --
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-04 Thread Gaius Hammond
My usual rhetoric is that one-off, throwaway scripts never are, and not only do 
they tend to stay around but they take on a life of their own. Today's 10-line 
file munger is tomorrow's thousand-line ETL batch job on which the business 
depends for some crucial data - yet the original author is long gone and no-one 
dares modify in case it breaks. So it is just good sense to use sound practices 
from the very beginning. 


One of the features of Perl is that it will try to work even if you make type 
errors (e.g. give it a scalar in place of a list, or a string instead of an 
int). One day, however, it WILL fail. Haskell finds these types of bugs 
upfront, and not when your pager goes off at 3am...


Cheers,


G

--Original Message--
From: Michael Litchard
Sender: haskell-cafe-boun...@haskell.org
To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org
Subject: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.
Sent: Sep 4, 2010 17:38

I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
lanugages.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] help me evangelize haskell.

2010-09-04 Thread Vo Minh Thu
2010/9/4 Michael Litchard :
> I'll be starting a new job soon as systems tool guy. The shop is a
> perl shop as far as internal automation tasks go. But I am fortunate
> to not be working with bigots. If they see a better way, they'll take
> to it. So please give me your best arguments in favor of using haskell
> for task automation instead of perl, or awk or any of those scripting
> lanugages.

Hi,

At a talk presented during a Ghent FPG meeting, someone explained how
they brought Ocaml to the work place. Basically, they made a drop-in
replacement for a C++ (or maybe was it C) library. Less code, same or
above performance.

Maybe they had also a good reason to rewrite the library (because it
was too big, or too difficult to maintain), not just as a proof that
Ocaml was better suited.

I guess that in your case, "Perl for internal automation task", you
should find some little tool for which it would be acceptable to
dedicate some time rewriting it in Haskell.

Tell us how all this unfolds.

Cheers,
Thu
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