Re: [Haskell-cafe] OOP'er with (hopefully) trivial questions.....
On 12/17/07, Evan Laforge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oops, nevermind, I just saw the other thread and link to > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Newtype. Ok, so that seems like a > pretty subtle diffenence... I'm assuming the rationale behind > differentiating between a single constructor data and newtype is so > that data types don't suddenly change their behaviour around undefined > when they have only one constructor. I would find example y3 > surprising if I came across it in real code! It's not that subtle if you think about what newtype is for. Newtype is like "type", except that you're not just declaring a type synonym, but asking the typechecker to check that you don't use the synonym interchangeably with the type it's standing in for. Types declared with newtype and with type are supposed to act exactly the same way at runtime. In order to act exactly the same way at runtime, if you write newtype X = X A, X _|_ has to be indistinguishable from _|_ at runtime. In other words, the data constructor X has to be strict. In types declared with "data", constructors are lazy -- if they weren't, you wouldn't be programming in Haskell. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * catamorphism.org * Often in error, never in doubt "People. Can't live with 'em, can't legally set fire to 'em." -- Sheree Schrager ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] OOP'er with (hopefully) trivial questions.....
On 12/17/07, Wolfgang Jeltsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is not a generalization of what you talked about. Why should the tuple > type be unboxed? Tuple types are boxed, meaning there is a difference > between _|_ and (_|_,…,_|_). If you write > > newtype X = X (A, B, C) > > then X doesn't add another level of indirection but the level of indirection > introduced by the tuple constructor remains, of course. So you could write > the above newtype declaration instead of > > data X = X A B C. > I interpreted Evan's question as "why can't you have newtypes with multiple fields?" -- i.e., newtype X = X A B C -- and that's the question I was answering. But maybe I misunderstood. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * catamorphism.org * Often in error, never in doubt "After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless." -- James Geoffrey ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: #haskell works
On 12/20/07, Simon Marlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That's not entirely true - there is a fairly decent linear-scan register > allocator in GHC > > http://darcs.haskell.org/ghc/compiler/nativeGen/RegAllocLinear.hs > > the main bottleneck is not the quality of the register allocation (at > least, not yet). > > The first problem is that in order to get good performance when compiling > via C we've had to lock various global variables into registers (the heap > pointer, stack pointer etc.), which leaves too few registers free for > argument passing on x86, so the stack is used too much. This is probably > why people often say that the register allocator sucks - in fact it is > really the calling convention that sucks. There is some other stupidness > such as reloading values from the stack, though. > [snipped further reasons] Thanks for enlightening me. (I had been opting to believe the various rumor and hearsay floating around rather than actually reading the source :-) One reason why I care about this is that over the summer I was trying to do some performance measurements for House. One of the experiments I did was measuring how long it took to run a loop of Haskell code that just did a no-op FFI call. This was still ten times slower than a loop in C that called the same no-op function. I looked at the generated code (with the native-code backend), noticed the issues you mentioned above (reloading values from the stack, and so on), and concluded that there was probably a good reason why the backend was being worked on actively. The -fvia-C code wasn't much better. However, this was with GHC 6.2, so obviously this suggests that porting House to a newer GHC version might be worthwhile for us to do :-) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * catamorphism.org * Often in error, never in doubt "Dare to be naive."--R. Buckminster Fuller ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Wikipedia on first-class object
On 12/29/07, Bulat Ziganshin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > just imagine compiling of this program without pencil and paper and > you will draw conclusion that computers have power of deduction that > humans definitely doesn't have. and it's only one aspect which doesn't > take into account duration of human life (of course if we want to > say about *real humans* and not abstract mathematical model of immortals), > difference between people's abilities (it's common mistake to compare > abilities of one concrete computer with MAXIMUM of abilities of all > people, including whose in all future generations), don't take into > account that human by itself, at the moment of birth doesn't know > anything about mathematics and even can't speak - he is programmed by > society to acquire these skills > I haven't been following this thread, but anyone interested in this question might want to read Daniel Dennett's essay "Fast Thinking", in his book _The Intentional Stance_. > so, computers are definitely more advanced devices - they was created > to. we (humanity) just don't yet finished development of the program > which at some moment will make them able to further develop itself > without our help. if you believe that human is superior to computer > you should also believe that bacterium is superior to human > The only thing that computers can do that humans can't is to work without getting bored. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "It's mad to be in love with someone else / When you're in love with him, she's in love with me / But you know as well as I do I can never think of anyone but you" -- Pet Shop Boys ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Wikipedia on first-class object
On 12/29/07, Bulat Ziganshin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Tim, > > Saturday, December 29, 2007, 9:42:48 PM, you wrote: > > > The only thing that computers can do that humans can't is to work > > without getting bored. > > ok, please compute 2^2^30 before continuing discussion. it seems that > you just use "i'm too bored" and "i can't" as synonyms. if computer > will answer "i'm too bored" to any question he can't answer - will it > be enough to give him human rights? > Well, that's why I recommended the Dennett essay. The difference between "I'm too bored" and "I can't" is actually an interesting philosophical question, and people have written about it in detail before. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Instant gratification takes too long."--Carrie Fisher ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[4]: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Wikipedia on first-class object
On 12/29/07, Bulat Ziganshin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > oh, Dennett isn't only source of wisdom. i proposed you this task > because i've my own understanding of it. as i've said in other letter, > both computers and humans may be described using mathematics and > therefore equivalent - as far as we say about theoretical immortal > man and Turing machine He's not the only source of wisdom, but as a rule, it does tend to be good to be as familiar as possible with what has been written before on a subject that you're talking about. Isn't that one of the reasons this mailing list exists, after all? :-) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "...It's wonderful that I can trust you not to spit in my milk, but what's the point if you're going to drink from the bottle?" -- Sarah Barton ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Why functional programming matters
On 1/23/08, Peter Hercek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Other things did not seem that great for me from the beginning. For > example: referential transparency - just enforces what you can take care > not to do yourself ...if you never make mistakes, that is. > (e.g. in C# you just cannot be sure some function is > referentially transparent even when comment claims so - which of course > sucks because programmers are not disciplined). But if that's the point you're trying to make, I agree that a lot of programmers seem to think they don't make mistakes, and thus might not be receptive to the siren song of referential transparency :-) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "You never have to aspire to difficulty, darling. It arrives, uninvited. Then it stays for dinner."--Sue Miller ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Internships at GHC HQ
On 1/25/08, Dan Licata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A further plug: > > I did an internship with Simon PJ last summer (implementing view > patterns in GHC, among other things), and this is a great opportunity if > you're interested in PL research. There is a lot of interesting work > going on at MSR Cambridge, the atmosphere is very friendly, and > Cambridge is a lovely place to spend a summer. > > If anyone wants an "intern's-eye" view of the experience, feel free to > e-mail me! > I second most parts of this (including the "feel free to email me part"). I hear that the summer is busiest with respect to interns, but those who can arrange it with their graduate programs ought to consider applying for an internship during the school year. I don't know what things are like now, but I found that there were plenty of other interns around to keep me company even during the fall, and Cambridge is a lovely place to spend an autumn as well. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "The more you talk, the more I get / a sense of something that hasn't happened yet / The more you talk, the more I want to know / the way I'll remember you when I go." -- Ani DiFranco ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: The programming language market (was Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why functional programming matters
On 1/26/08, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Say "computers are cheap but programmers are expensive" whenever > explaining a correctness or productivity feature. This is true only if talking to people in high-income nations. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "We should not be simply fighting evil in the name of good, but struggling against the certainties of people who claim always to know where good and evil are to be found." -- Tzvetan Todorov ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: The programming language market (was Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why functional programming matters
On 1/26/08, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tim Chevalier wrote: > > This is true only if talking to people in high-income nations. > > > Even in low-income nations, its only false in the short term. If you > have skilled programmers with computers and Internet connections then > their wages inflate to the world norm. IIRC India is seeing 20%/year > wage inflation for comp-sci graduates. And thats without the impact of > H1-B and related programmes around the world. > It's true that India seems to be going in that direction, but personally I don't feel I have the background or temerity to suggest that it will definitely happen for the rest of the world. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "We're born, we live for a brief instant, and we die. Technology is not changing it much, if at all."--Steve Jobs ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: The programming language market (was Re: Why functional programming matters
On 1/26/08, Stefan Monnier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> * Say "computers are cheap but programmers are expensive" whenever > >> explaining a correctness or productivity feature. > > This is true only if talking to people in high-income nations. > > Is it? Maybe you're right. > Yes -- consider the OLPC project (and its competitors). In some developing nations, $200 for a laptop is still a *lot* to pay (the laptop I'm typing this on cost $1400, purchased on a government grant, and that purchase was treated as nothing.) Labor is a lot cheaper in those places. And there's not much in the way of big government funding (whether for universities or companies) to pay for any of it. > But historically, computers have been available at all kinds of price > ranges, so people chose the price point that fit them. So, for the last > 15 years or so already computers have been chosen (in the wealthy > countries) to be cheaper than programmers. > > Is there any reason to think that the same forces aren't at play in > lower-income nations? After all, cheap (typically second hand) > computers are easy to come by. Not with the same amount of computing power that computers that run modern application tend to have; a lot of places don't even have reliable *electricity* (so in that case, lots of people and limited machines could be *good*, if the machines aren't working all the time), etc. I don't really know enough to give a more complete answer to your question. But my original point is that saying labor is always expensive and hardware is always cheap by comparison is a culturally biased statement, at least right now, on January 26, 2008. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "I eat too much / I laugh too long / I like too much of you when I'm gone." -- Ani DiFranco ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: The programming language market (was Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why functional programming matters
opted -- if you think that it's elegant but will never be practical -- it's going to be hard for you to sell it to a 300-person hall full of undergrads, most of whom are likely to start checking email the moment you say something that bores them. Disclaimer: This entire message consists of my personal opinions and does not represent the opinions of anybody else, and probably won't represent my opinions either in another day or two. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "don't you understand / in the day to day / in the face to face / i have to act just as strong as i can / just to preserve a place where i can be who i am" -- Ani DiFranco ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to organize code
On 1/27/08, L.Guo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> How do you organize code ?
>
> Here is a sample.
> Acturally, I am thinking about using this plan.
>
> Any suggestions ?
>
> > -- BasicalType.hs
> > type Position = (Int,Int)
> > data Box = Box { pos :: Position }
> > data Chain = Chain { pos :: [Position] }
>
> > -- Object.hs
> > import BasicalType
> > class Object o where
> > pos :: o -> [Position]
>
> > -- Type.hs
> > import BasicalType
> > import Object
> > instance Object Box where
> > pos = return . BasicalType.pos
> > instance Object Chain where
> > pos = BasicalType.pos
>
> > -- Main.hs
> > import Type
> > ...
>
Be careful not to confuse Haskell's type class system with the idea of
a "class" in object-oriented programming. I suggest you read this
article:
http://trevion.blogspot.com/2007/02/snowball-chance.html
Cheers,
Tim
--
Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt
"...It's a thin line between amateur and professional, a line mostly
emphasized by insecure professionals." -- Bob Franke
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
"Haskell", stress on the first syllable; the first syllable is like the word "has" and the second syllable is pronounced with a schwa where the "e" is written. Sometimes you will hear people stress the second syllable, but that is not Preferred. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "They say the world is just a stage you're on...or going through." --Jim Infantino ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/28/08, Jeremy Apthorp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 29/01/2008, Tim Chevalier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Haskell", stress on the first syllable; the first syllable is like > > the word "has" and the second syllable is pronounced with a schwa > > where the "e" is written. > > > > Sometimes you will hear people stress the second syllable, but that is > > not Preferred. > > > > "Hass" (like in "hassle") "kell" (to rhyme with "fell") > That is not correct. The second syllable does not rhyme with "fell". In fact, the correct pronunciation sounds like "hassle" with a 'k' inserted between the two syllables of that word. (And when I say it's not correct, I'm comparing to the speech of a few People Who Should Know.) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "pointing out ridiculous attitudes about every actual thing in the world ever is not a crime" -- Tony Gies ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/28/08, Jeremy Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > If my sources are to be believed, the following clip contains Simon > Peyton Jones saying 'Haskell' several times. > > http://www.n-heptane.com/nhlab/spj-haskell.wav > I have listened to Simon (and other equally sage folks) say "Haskell" on a few occasions and I believe that it's more like what I tried to render in text. Perhaps you've listened equally carefully but disagree; perhaps neither of us is wrong. the English language is weird that way. I suppose you would really want to ask Haskell Curry how *he* pronounced his name, but it's a bit late for that. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Work is there when love is gone" -- Greg Brown ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/28/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, unless you are French. Then you don't pronounce "H". The remaining > letters are pronounced according to the Règlements de l'Académie. Fair enough. I wouldn't want to be culturally insensitive, and should have said that my statement was only directed at people who were speaking some dialect of English. > On the other hand, the name "Chevalier" is pronounced as it should be. > I can pronounce my own name better than more or less any other American, but -- sadly -- quite a bit worse than anyone who actually grew up speaking French. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Now I'm trying to get back to what I know that I should be / hoping to God that I was just a temporary absentee" -- Gerard McHugh ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/28/08, Tim Chevalier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 1/28/08, Jeremy Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > If my sources are to be believed, the following clip contains Simon > > Peyton Jones saying 'Haskell' several times. > > > > http://www.n-heptane.com/nhlab/spj-haskell.wav > > > > I have listened to Simon (and other equally sage folks) say "Haskell" > on a few occasions and I believe that it's more like what I tried to > render in text. Perhaps you've listened equally carefully but > disagree; perhaps neither of us is wrong. the English language is > weird that way. > > I suppose you would really want to ask Haskell Curry how *he* > pronounced his name, but it's a bit late for that. > I should really read more carefully -- I see now that you weren't trying to disagree with me by posting that clip, but the person who *did* disagree with me was also named "Jeremy". How confusing. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "People. Can't live with 'em, can't legally set fire to 'em." -- Sheree Schrager ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/28/08, Dan Weston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jeremy Shaw wrote: > > I would say the best description of how I pronounce it (which may or > > may not be right): is like 'rascal' but with an h. Though, perhaps > > different people pronounce rascal differently than I do. > > I think to ease the acceptance of Haskell in the broader world we should > spell it "Hascal" and stress the second syllable. :) > I think to ease the acceptance of Haskell in the broader world, we should just change the name to Schönfinkel. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "If you live in a society that wishes you didn't exist, anything you do to make yourself happy disrupts its attempts to wipe you out, or at the very least, make you invisible." -- Patrick Califia ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/28/08, Anton van Straaten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tim Chevalier wrote: > > I suppose you would really want to ask Haskell Curry how *he* > > pronounced his name, but it's a bit late for that. > > Someone could ask Alonzo Church, Jr. how his one-time date pronounced > her father's name: > > http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/haskell-curry-yes-i-dated-his-daughter/ > That is an excellent blog post, but according to one of the comments, Alonzo Church, Jr. is also no longer with us. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "It's never too early to start drilling holes in your car." -- Tom Magliozzi ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Why isn't there a FAQ? (was: Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?)
I thought that the .wav file that Jeremy linked to should go in the Haskell FAQ, if there was one, but it doesn't seem to exist. There's a comp.lang.functional FAQ (that isn't maintained anymore) with a section on Haskell, and a GHC FAQ, but no general Haskell FAQ. A google search for "haskell faq" turns up this as one of the first ten hits: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg01153.html which is hardly current. So somebody should write one. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "What you call 'lying', other people would call 'abstraction'." -- Alex Aiken ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Why isn't there a FAQ? (was: Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?)
On 1/28/08, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Jan 28, 2008, at 21:54 , Tim Chevalier wrote: > > > I thought that the .wav file that Jeremy linked to should go in the > > Haskell FAQ, if there was one, but it doesn't seem to exist. > > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Category:FAQ > > but it took me too much effort to find it, and it needs a fair amount > of work besides IMO. > Yes, the usual convention for FAQs is for them to be structured as a list of questions, possibly including answers. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Relax. I'm weird, not violent."--Brad Boesen, _Disturbed_ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/29/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On the other hand, is better not to try Curry, since the French pronounce > it: Queue-rhrhrh. This is for me absolutely inacceptable and scandalous, > since thus, they confuse him with Madame Curie, who was Polish, and I am > a patriot. And after a few years, people from some Other Respectable > Cultures will think that Haskell discovered Radium (for French: Hhhhudiomm). > Not to mention that there's already a programming language called "Curry". > Thank you for this inspiring and awfully useful discussion. > I live to serve. > Some more messages on this subject, and I will have really to call an > ambulance so they can take me away, far from Internet... > Have them stop at my place next... Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Basically, swingers meet ISO 9000." -- DF, on cuddle parties ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/29/08, PR Stanley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I didn't know Haskell was an English name. Haskell Curry was an American, and I think the usual convention is to pronounce names in the manner of the language that the person who has the name speaks. (Preferably just to pronounce people's names the way they say them.) (The first convention doesn't work with my last name, though the second one does.) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Living with depression is like trying to keep your balance while you dance with a goat -- it is perfectly sane to prefer a partner with a better sense of balance." -- Andrew Solomon ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] anybody can tell me the pronuncation of "haskell"?
On 1/29/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oh, people! > I try hard to degenerate this discussion into a pure delirium traemens, and > you still keep its serious intellectual contents intact! I bet that you > don't even smile, writing your terrible off-topic postings! Damn, I was trying to be wacky and off-topic too. I guess I must have failed at that goal. Time to start talking about applicative functors as used to explain how to use monad comprehensions to compile Perl into Unlambda, I guess. > > If you wish so... > Tim, there cannot be any USUAL CONVENTION, unless you are conditioned by > your anglo-saxon keyboard. > I don't know what you mean by this exactly. I assume that your first name is not meant to be pronounced like the name of the isle of Jersey, even though that's what it looks like to me (an ignorant American). So if we met, I would try to pronounce it the way you said it. That's the "convention" that I see as applying. > There is no truly established way to translate non-standard diacritics. > Even without, there are pronunciation variants, look how many versions > of "Mustapha" names there are in the world. Try to transmit my family > name to a Japanese, using Katakana (which, being syllabic, gives you many > choices...) > The information world today is far from a purely oral tradition. I think > that the only sane attitude is just let people distort everything as they > wish, and don't get nervous. Those distortions are unavoidable, languages > are evolving creatures. > True, but this is more to do with text rather than speech. > ... And a good part of English has been established by those Francophone > Vikings who won the battle of Hastings in 1066, beginning their campaign > from where I usually live and work. > ... Not forgetting that before them there were Danish Vikings, coming from > the place where I sit now... Indo-European turtles all the way down. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "The geeks shall inherit the earth." -- Karl Lehenbauer ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Who started 42, and when?
To pre-empt the next couple of questions, the numbers 17 and 23 are from _The Illuminatus! Trilogy_ by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, and the number 37 is from the Jersey Trilogy of movies by Kevin Smith. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "I'm a nonbeliever, but I believe in your smile." -- Laura Nyro ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] FP and Quality
On 2/4/08, PR Stanley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi folks > I'm thinking of writing a little essay arguing the case for the > advantages of FP for producing quality software. Can the list > recommend any papers/articles which I can use as sources of my > argument? I have access to the IEEE database too although earlier I > couldn't find anything on the subject. Try: Philip Wadler. An angry half dozen. SIGPLAN Notices 33(2):25--30, February 1998. [NB. http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/article/wadler98angry.html ] Also look for the schedules for the 2007 and 2006 CUFP (Commercial Users of Functional Programming) workshops. The schedules have links to slides from talks by people using FP in industry. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Not only would I never want to belong to any club that would have me for a member -- if elected I would wear street shoes onto the squash court and set fire to the ballroom curtains."--Michael Chabon ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: [Haskell] Extensible records: Static duck typing
[redirecting to haskell-cafe] On 2/6/08, Barney Hilken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is what I was trying to do with the wiki page. I stopped because > the only other contributor decided he could no longer contribute, and > I felt I was talking to myself. If we want to be rational about the > design, we need real examples to demonstrate what is genuinely useful, > and I don't have that many of them. It's obvious that records are a language feature that people besides just you care about. And so everybody would benefit from your effort if you chose to continue adding more examples to the wiki page. Records clearly seem to be an important issue if so many people have replied to your thread, and your comment expressing frustration at "arbitrary decisions" getting made about design seems to suggest you have some passion about the issue. On the other hand, if you can't think of real examples offhand, and no one else can either, maybe it's not that important... (Examples don't have to be very complicated to be useful, by the way. Simpler is better.) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "If pots couldn't call kettles black, there'd be a lot less talking going on." -- Larissa Ranbom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] I love purity, but it's killing me.
On 2/8/08, Matthew Naylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > it in for an efficient program. However, to my knowledge, it is an > unwritten rule of Haskell compilers that sharing *is* preserved, and > that they do perform *graph* reduction. Clean, a similar language to I'm not sure that programmers ought to be relying on this rule. Sure, all Haskell compilers I know of preserve sharing and do graph reduction. But conventional wisdom is not the same thing as an unwritten rule. Someday, someone might come along and write a Haskell compiler that isn't based on graph reduction and doesn't preserve sharing at the implementation level (while still preserving the informal semantics of Haskell). A programmer who had written code that failed to compile correctly under this hypothetical compiler would be a very naughty Haskell programmer indeed. > Haskell, indeed has a semantics based on graphs. So I don't believe Haskell doesn't have a semantics, graph-based or not... or at least not a formal one, and if not a formal one, I don't know what you mean :-) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "There are no sexist decisions to be made. There are antisexist decisions to be made. And they require tremendous energy and self-scrutiny, as well as moral stamina..." -- Samuel R. Delany ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Parody of Darcs patch theory from 1981
On 3/2/08, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was looking through my old copy of "The Devil's DP Dictionary" by Stan > Kelly-Bootle, and came across the entry for Stepwise Refinement. I > thought "I've seen this before: this is a parody of Darcs patch > theory". It included the Null patch, chains of patches, inverse > patches, and pseudo-inverse patches. But the book was published in 1981. > > I've got the pages scanned, but I can't upload them to Wikimedia because > they are still in copyright. However I'm quite sure that limited > distribution would fall into "fair use" (non-commercial, small part of > work, no impact on market, academic relevance). The total file size is > about 520kBytes. Assuming people would like to see them, does anyone > have any ideas beyond "email to requestors"? I would be entertained, but perhaps this might be more on-topic on the darcs-users mailing list (and interested parties might be more likely to see it there, since not everyone can keep up with haskell-cafe) :-) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jeff Raskin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] An offer to any haskell projects out there.
On 3/12/08, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One of the best things you could do would be to submit patches against > the core library set where documentation is missing. Starting > with things in base, array, containers, directory, filepath, pretty, > time etc. > > That would likely help the largest number of users. > > Patches to these libraries can be submitted to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] > list. > To elaborate ever so slightly on what Don said: A lot of libraries only have type signatures for functions in the libraries as "documentation". What's missing is English descriptions of what the functions really do. You yourself may not know what the functions do, but you can learn by experimenting with the libraries (writing little programs that use the functions) and by asking on this mailing list (and reading old posts in the archive), if necessary. It would be really useful if you decided to put time into this. Thanks in advance! Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "You never have to aspire to difficulty, darling. It arrives, uninvited. Then it stays for dinner."--Sue Miller ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] intersection of sets
On 3/18/08, Walt Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All, > We're running out of space when we intersect two large sets. We've > imported Data.Set. > Any suggestions? > What optimization and other compiler flags (heap size, etc.) are you using? Have you tried profiling? Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Live fast, love hard, and wear corrective lenses if you need them." --Webb Wilder ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] intersection of sets
[ccing to list] On 3/18/08, Walt Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tim, > > We're using -O2 to optimize, but not changing the heap size. We're > trying to get the profiling running on our file. > The sets have about 25 million elements each. Each element is a sequence > of length 16. > > We'll want to compute larger examples! > > I do not know how intersection works in Data.Set. I'm worried that we're > having problems with stack overflow due to recursion. We'll try to > remove the lazy stuff. > Run profiling before you "try to remove the lazy stuff". There's no point in trying to optimize code until you know what's actually taking up space. If you have problems with profiling, then ask on the glasgow-haskell-users mailing list. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Aw, honey, you can keep what's in my pockets, but send me back my pants." --Greg Brown ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] ANN: The Disciplined Disciple Compiler - alpha 1
On 3/20/08, Ben Lippmeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Wolfgang, > Rest assured it really is a Haskell project. Apart from the way it > does field projections, DDC will compile a significant number of > Haskell programs with no modifications. > Can you elaborate on "a significant number of Haskell programs"? Do you expect that DDC can compile any Haskell (98?) program except some weird corner cases, or are you aware of a particular class of Haskell programs it currently can't compile? (I'm asking in order to find out whether DDC would potentially be useful for my work, not so as to question whether it should be on haskell.org (I don't care about that :-)) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "It's easy to consider women more emotional than men when you don't consider rage to be an emotion." -- Brenda Fine ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] FFI C Structs
On 7/18/08, Aleš Bizjak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > PS: An example of a haskell binding like this would be even more useful, if > anyone knows of such. I don't know that it's good for much else besides serving as an example of an FFI binding that uses structs (and possibly as an example of what not to do), but you could look at my half-finished GraphicsMagick binding: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/hsmagick Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Good memories make me feel bad / Bad memories make me feel small" --Dom Leone ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Best book/tutorial on category theory and its applications
I've only read the beginning, but I recommend _Conceptual Mathematics_ by Lawvere and Schanuel for a *very* gentle introduction (seriously, you could probably teach category theory to ten-year-olds out of this book.) Nothing about applications there, though. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "I haven't got the slightest idea how to change people, but still I keep a long list of prospective candidates just in case I should ever figure it out." --David Sedaris ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
