Re: [Haskell-community] Haskell language API copyright status?
See the (very open) license of the Haskell Report https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/ On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 11:16 AM Nicholas Papadonis < nick.papadonis...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > You may be aware of Oracle vs. Google in regards to the Java API being > copyrighted. The case is still in progress. > > When the Haskell language was created, including any books on it, the > authors became the copyright holder for the language API that one uses to > code with. Is anyone aware of any license which grants people free use of > this API. I saw various licenses for compilers, but was concerned that was > only for the code implementing the compiler/interpreter. If so, what is it? > > There could be an interpretation that a derivative work of the compiler / > interpreter implementation is indeed the language itself. Therefore if the > compiler / interpreter and it’s derivative is freely licensed, then the > language API is as well. > > I ask because it’s my understanding C/C++ language API was licensed > through ISO, which grants a free license to anyone implementing or using > the language API. > > Appreciate your guidance. > > Thank you, > Nick > ___ > Haskell-community mailing list > Haskell-community@haskell.org > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community > ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] Creating a new @haskell.org mailing list?
Ok, education@ should now be created, and chris should be list admin. Feel free to reach out to me if there are any issues. Cheers, Gershom On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 8:00 PM Chris Smith wrote: > > Any news on this? Would love to help any way I can, but I am not sure what > to do next. > > Thanks, > Chris > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:12 PM Gershom B wrote: >> >> Sounds good. Ccing Sandy, who has volunteered to start helping with >> mail stuff. Sandy -- do you need any further details in setting this >> up, or do you think it should be straightforward? >> >> -g >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:18 AM Chris Smith wrote: >> > >> > Good point, Simon. education@ sounds like a good choice, with the >> > understanding that we mean education for the general population, not >> > classes in type theory or category theory! >> > >> > Is this a possibility? Anything else I can do to move this forward? >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:32 AM Simon Peyton Jones >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Good idea. “k12” is rather USA specific. What about >> >> educat...@haskell.org? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Simon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Haskell-community On Behalf >> >> Of Chris Smith >> >> Sent: 22 October 2018 15:32 >> >> To: Haskell-community >> >> Subject: [Haskell-community] Creating a new @haskell.org mailing list? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hey, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Is there a process to request a new mailing list on the haskell.org >> >> domain? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Here's my use case. About 25 Haskell programmers met at ICFP to discuss >> >> uses of Haskell in K-12 education (for non-US readers, that means before >> >> university). I'm also in touch with another half-dozen people who either >> >> have done, or are doing, something pre-university with Haskell, but could >> >> not be at ICFP. The main result of our conversation was that we wanted a >> >> common place to discuss, report on our experiences, look for productive >> >> collaborations and common threads, etc. There are already a few >> >> project-specific places, e.g. the codeworld-discuss mailing list for my >> >> own project, but we were explicitly looking for something general-purpose >> >> and universal. It would be great if this could be, say, >> >> "k...@haskell.org" or something like that. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm pretty open in terms of how we'd administer the list. I'm willing to >> >> do the work of handling obvious spam bots and things like that. If >> >> there's a feeling we'd need something more than that, then let's have >> >> that discussion. We explicitly don't want a strict topicality >> >> enforcement, though. For example, several people who attended the dinner >> >> at ICFP were also interested in functional programming for non-majors at >> >> the university level, or were using Elm and other Haskell-like languages >> >> - even a few people from the Racket community. I'd hope to rely on the >> >> name of the mailing list to keep things a bit focused, but not really >> >> police it at all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thoughts? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Chris Smith >> > >> > ___ >> > Haskell-community mailing list >> > Haskell-community@haskell.org >> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey results
The language extensions section doesn’t appear to be sorted properly. Outside of that, I think that these results are looking much better and any effort to find any additional outliers is probably not worth it for the moment. Thanks for your work on this, and I appreciate you being responsive and attentive when problems with the data were pointed out. There’s certainly some interesting and helpful information to be gleaned from this data. Cheers, Gershom On November 18, 2018 at 2:55:10 PM, Taylor Fausak (tay...@fausak.me) wrote: Ok, I updated the function that checks for bad responses, re-ran the script, and updated the announcement along with all the assets (charts, tables, and CSV). Hopefully it's the last time, as I can't justify spending much more time on this. https://github.com/tfausak/tfausak.github.io/blob/6f9991758ffeed085c45dd97e4ce6a82a8b1a73f/_posts/2018-11-18-2018-state-of-haskell-survey-results.markdown On Sun, Nov 18, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Michael Snoyman wrote: Just wanted to add in: good catch Gershom on identifying the problem, and thank you Taylor for working to remove them from the report. On 18 Nov 2018, at 21:17, Taylor Fausak wrote: Great catch, Gershom! There are indeed about 300 responses that tick all the boxes except for disliking the new GHC release schedule. The main thing the attacker seemed to be interested in was over-representing Stack and Stackage. Also, bizarrely, Java. That brings the number of bogus responses up to 3,735, which puts the number of legitimate responses at 1,361. For context, last year's survey asked far fewer questions and had 1,335 responses. On Sun, Nov 18, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Imants Cekusins wrote: What if the announcement mentioned a large number of potentially bogus responses, explained the grounds for this conclusion, with a new survey conducted early next year? The next survey would then need to be done differently from this one somehow. To improve the reliability, some authentication may be necessary. Maybe Stack, Cabal questions could be grouped as separate distinct surveys, conducted by their maintainers through own channels? Not sure how much value is in exact numbers of users of Stack or Cabal. Both groups are large enough. The maintainers of both groups are aware about usage stats. Is either library likely to be influenced by this survey? *___* Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey results
Hi Taylor. I think we're closer to the real results here, but I'm still pretty sure that there are a fair number of phony responses. In particular, looking at your filter function, I don't think that _all_ bogus responses said "I dislike it" with regards to the ghc release schedule. A fair number that hit all the other criteria also seem to have left it blank. I suspect this will be enough to do the trick, but can't be sure... This attempted sabotage of the survey is really frustrating and disappointing. -g On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 10:58 AM Taylor Fausak wrote: > > I have filtered out the bogus responses and re-generated all the charts and > tables. You can see the updated results here: > https://github.com/tfausak/tfausak.github.io/blob/ee29da5bd8389c19763ac2b4dbe27ff5204161f5/_posts/2018-11-16-2018-state-of-haskell-survey-results.markdown > > Note that until I post the results on my blog, they are not published. Please > don't share the preliminary results on social media! > > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018, at 8:11 AM, Taylor Fausak wrote: > > Thanks for finding those anomalies, Gershom! I'm disappointed that someone > submitted bogus responses, apparently to tip the scales of Cabal versus > Stack. I intend to identify those responses and exclude them from the > results. The work you've done so far will help a great deal in finding them. > > You said that there are about 1,200 responses with demographic information. > That makes sense considering the number of submissions I got last year. Also, > there are 1,185 responses that included an answer to at least one of the > free-response questions. So perhaps whoever wrote the script didn't bother to > put an answer for those types of questions. > > Unfortunately I do not have precise submission times or IP address > information about submissions. Beyond what's in the CSV, the only other thing > I have is (some) email addresses. > > Fortunately I wrote a script to output all the charts and tables from the > survey responses. Once I've identified the problematic responses, I should be > able to update the script to ignore them and regenerate all the output. > > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018, at 3:40 AM, Chris Smith wrote: > > Sadly, it looks like a Cabal/Stack thing. Of the responses with a country > provided, 618 of 1226 claim to use Cabal, and 948 of 1226 claim to use Stack. > Of the responses with no country, only 35 of 3868 claim to use Cabal, while > 3781 of the 3868 claim to use Stack. Assuming independence, you'd expect > that last number to be about 50, meaning there are probably around 3700 fake > responses generated just to answer "Stack". > > To partially answer Simon's question, the flood of no-demographics responses > started on November 2, around the 750-response point, and continued unabated > through the close of the survey. And, indeed, looking at just the first 750 > responses gives similar distributions to what we get by ignoring the > no-demographic responses. For example, of the first 750 responses, 359 claim > to use Cabal, and 568 claim to use Stack. > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 2:31 AM Simon Marlow wrote: > > Good spot Gershom. Maybe it would be revealing to look at the times that > responses were received for the no-demographics group? > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 07:17 Gershom B > I also noticed a number of other bizarre statistical anomolies when looking > at the full results. I know this is a bit much to ask — but if you could > rerun the statistics filtering out people that did not give demographic > information (i.e. country of origin or education, etc) I think the results > will change drastically. By all statistical logic, this should _not_ be the > case, and points to a serious problem. > > In particular, this drops the results by a huge amount — only 1,200 or so > remain. However, the remaining results tend to make a lot more sense. For > example — of the “no demographics” group, there are 713 users who claim to > develop with notepad++ but all of these say they develop on mac and linux, > and none on windows — which is impossible, as notepad++ is a windows program. > Further if you drop the “no demographics” group, then you find that almost > everyone uses at least ghc 8.0.2, while in the “no demographics” group, a > stunning number of people claim to be on 7.8.3. Even more bizarrely, people > claim to be using the 7.8 series while only having used Haskell for less than > one year. And people claim to have used haskell for “one week to one month” > and also to be advanced and expert users! > > The differences continue and defy all probability. Of the “no demographics” > group, almost everyone dislikes the new release schedule. Of the > “demographi
Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey results
I also noticed a number of other bizarre statistical anomolies when looking at the full results. I know this is a bit much to ask — but if you could rerun the statistics filtering out people that did not give demographic information (i.e. country of origin or education, etc) I think the results will change drastically. By all statistical logic, this should _not_ be the case, and points to a serious problem. In particular, this drops the results by a huge amount — only 1,200 or so remain. However, the remaining results tend to make a lot more sense. For example — of the “no demographics” group, there are 713 users who claim to develop with notepad++ but all of these say they develop on mac and linux, and none on windows — which is impossible, as notepad++ is a windows program. Further if you drop the “no demographics” group, then you find that almost everyone uses at least ghc 8.0.2, while in the “no demographics” group, a stunning number of people claim to be on 7.8.3. Even more bizarrely, people claim to be using the 7.8 series while only having used Haskell for less than one year. And people claim to have used haskell for “one week to one month” and also to be advanced and expert users! The differences continue and defy all probability. Of the “no demographics” group, almost everyone dislikes the new release schedule. Of the “demographics” group there are answers that like it, were not aware of it, or are indifferent, but almost nobody dislikes it. There is naturally a difference in proportions of cabal/stack and hackage/stackage responses as well. There are a lot of other things I could point to as well. But, bluntly put, I think that some disaffected party or parties wrote a crude script and submitted over 3,000 fake responses. Luckily for us, they were not very smart, and made some obvious errors, so in this case we can weed out the bad responses (although, sadly, losing at least a few real ones as well). However, assuming this party isn’t entirely stupid, it doesn’t bode well for future surveys as they may get at least slightly less dumb in the future if they decide to keep it up :-/ —Gershom On November 18, 2018 at 1:10:31 AM, Gershom B (gersh...@gmail.com) wrote: This is interesting, but I’m thoroughly confused. Over 2500 people said they took last year’s survey, but it only had roughly 1,300 respondants? On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 9:56 PM Taylor Fausak wrote: > Hello! It took a little longer than I expected, but I am nearly ready to > announce the 2018 state of Haskell survey results. Some community members > have expressed interest in seeing the announcement post before it's > published. If you are one of those people, you can see the results here: > https://github.com/tfausak/tfausak.github.io/blob/7e4937e284a3068add9e9af6b585c8d0215ff360/_posts/2018-11-16-2018-state-of-haskell-survey-results.markdown > > If you would like to suggest changes to the announcement post, please > respond to this email, send me an email directly, or reply to this pull > request on GitHub: https://github.com/tfausak/tfausak.github.io/pull/148 > > I plan on publishing the results tomorrow. Once the results are published, > the post is by no means set in stone. I will happily accept suggestions > from anyone at any time. > > Thank you! > ___ > Haskell-community mailing list > Haskell-community@haskell.org > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community > ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] Creating a new @haskell.org mailing list?
Sounds good. Ccing Sandy, who has volunteered to start helping with mail stuff. Sandy -- do you need any further details in setting this up, or do you think it should be straightforward? -g On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:18 AM Chris Smith wrote: > > Good point, Simon. education@ sounds like a good choice, with the > understanding that we mean education for the general population, not classes > in type theory or category theory! > > Is this a possibility? Anything else I can do to move this forward? > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:32 AM Simon Peyton Jones > wrote: >> >> Good idea. “k12” is rather USA specific. What about educat...@haskell.org? >> >> >> >> Simon >> >> >> >> From: Haskell-community On Behalf Of >> Chris Smith >> Sent: 22 October 2018 15:32 >> To: Haskell-community >> Subject: [Haskell-community] Creating a new @haskell.org mailing list? >> >> >> >> Hey, >> >> >> >> Is there a process to request a new mailing list on the haskell.org domain? >> >> >> >> Here's my use case. About 25 Haskell programmers met at ICFP to discuss >> uses of Haskell in K-12 education (for non-US readers, that means before >> university). I'm also in touch with another half-dozen people who either >> have done, or are doing, something pre-university with Haskell, but could >> not be at ICFP. The main result of our conversation was that we wanted a >> common place to discuss, report on our experiences, look for productive >> collaborations and common threads, etc. There are already a few >> project-specific places, e.g. the codeworld-discuss mailing list for my own >> project, but we were explicitly looking for something general-purpose and >> universal. It would be great if this could be, say, "k...@haskell.org" or >> something like that. >> >> >> >> I'm pretty open in terms of how we'd administer the list. I'm willing to do >> the work of handling obvious spam bots and things like that. If there's a >> feeling we'd need something more than that, then let's have that discussion. >> We explicitly don't want a strict topicality enforcement, though. For >> example, several people who attended the dinner at ICFP were also interested >> in functional programming for non-majors at the university level, or were >> using Elm and other Haskell-like languages - even a few people from the >> Racket community. I'd hope to rely on the name of the mailing list to keep >> things a bit focused, but not really police it at all. >> >> >> >> Thoughts? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Chris Smith > > ___ > Haskell-community mailing list > Haskell-community@haskell.org > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey
ng in only 6 months.) > > > > Incidentally, I for one think that it's a Good Thing that you included > > FP Complete's survey in the HWN, Taylor. First, I think it's a > > substantial and interesting piece of work -- and /any/ survey is > > vulnerable to response bias. Second, I don’t think anyone should expect > > you as HWN editor to play a role as community censor. Third, > > deliberately excluding it would in itself be a divisive act in a > > community that needs less division and more love. > > > > You do a fantastic job with HWN. Please keep doing it! > > > > Thanks > > > > Simon > > > > | -Original Message- > > | From: Haskell-community On > > | Behalf Of Gershom B > > | Sent: 15 October 2018 01:56 > > | To: tay...@fausak.me; Mathieu Boespflug ; Ben Gamari > > | > > | Cc: haskell-community@haskell.org > > | Subject: Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey > > | > > | (cc mathieu boespflug, ben gamari) > > | > > | One more thought: > > | > > | mathieu, ben -- do you think you would be interested in any questions > > | on the frequency of ghc releases -- if people appreciate more > > | frequent, smaller releases, or not, etc? > > | > > | I wonder if there are any other questions as well about core libraries > > | vs. performance vs. "big features" (like type system things) vs. small > > | ergonomic features etc. that the core ghc team might be interested in > > | sounding out people on, bearing in mind the necessary limitations of > > | survey derived data. > > | > > | --g > > | On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 8:36 PM Gershom B wrote: > > | > > > | > Hi Taylor. > > | > > > | > We're discussing this in the committee. I agree that to the extent > > | > they can accurately reflect something, language surveys are useful, > > | > and appreciate that you want to run a useful survey, and certainly > > | > want to encourage and help you in making it as broad and useful as > > | > possible. That said, I don't know if slapping a "haskell.org" label on > > | > the survey will help manage the biggest drivers of selection bias -- > > | > which is not only about who chooses to respond, but about who is > > | > reached through what mechanisms. (I don't know the relative importance > > | > of response-bias vs. outreach-bias in general, and would be curious if > > | > somebody has some good research on that to point to). I honestly don't > > | > know if we have enough channels _in general_ to do a good survey, no > > | > matter who runs it or how at all! Regardless of the decision we come > > | > to, here are a few of my personal thoughts on the questions you have > > | > thus far, and what could be added: > > | > > > | > 1) A question "how did you hear about this survey" -- this could at > > | > least help to disentangle outreach-bias, or notice it, depending on if > > | > it induces any correlations. > > | > > > | > 2) A question on how long after a new GHC release users upgrade -- > > | > both personally, and at work. > > | > > > | > 3) Distinguishing between personal and work build-systems in the > > | > relevant question. > > | > > > | > 4) I think the sorts of questions that make sense to ask in this early > > | > part can resemble those in the first part of the Go survey: > > | > > > | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.go > > | lang.org%2Fsurvey2017- > > | resultsdata=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2 > > | 008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6367516175958 > > | 02229sdata=2wB5Ph5%2Be6wZm0CWP7Yzx%2Fxe4dOlKHqNPKZReiJmE50%3Dr > > | eserved=0 (I especially like the > > | > questions about the area of development and server vs cli apps vs > > | > libraries). I also like their questions about what environments teams > > | > deploy programs to. It would also be worth asking if the apps > > | > developed are customer-facing or internal. > > | > > > | > 5) I think an interesting question would be what preferred js > > | > solution, if any, teams adopt -- i.e. ghcjs, typescript, purescript, > > | > raw js, etc. > > | > > > | > 6) for the "why did you stop" question, there are a good range of > > | > potential multi-choice answers that can be drawn from with the rust > > | > user survey: > > | https://na01.safelinks.protection
Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey
(cc mathieu boespflug, ben gamari) One more thought: mathieu, ben -- do you think you would be interested in any questions on the frequency of ghc releases -- if people appreciate more frequent, smaller releases, or not, etc? I wonder if there are any other questions as well about core libraries vs. performance vs. "big features" (like type system things) vs. small ergonomic features etc. that the core ghc team might be interested in sounding out people on, bearing in mind the necessary limitations of survey derived data. --g On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 8:36 PM Gershom B wrote: > > Hi Taylor. > > We're discussing this in the committee. I agree that to the extent > they can accurately reflect something, language surveys are useful, > and appreciate that you want to run a useful survey, and certainly > want to encourage and help you in making it as broad and useful as > possible. That said, I don't know if slapping a "haskell.org" label on > the survey will help manage the biggest drivers of selection bias -- > which is not only about who chooses to respond, but about who is > reached through what mechanisms. (I don't know the relative importance > of response-bias vs. outreach-bias in general, and would be curious if > somebody has some good research on that to point to). I honestly don't > know if we have enough channels _in general_ to do a good survey, no > matter who runs it or how at all! Regardless of the decision we come > to, here are a few of my personal thoughts on the questions you have > thus far, and what could be added: > > 1) A question "how did you hear about this survey" -- this could at > least help to disentangle outreach-bias, or notice it, depending on if > it induces any correlations. > > 2) A question on how long after a new GHC release users upgrade -- > both personally, and at work. > > 3) Distinguishing between personal and work build-systems in the > relevant question. > > 4) I think the sorts of questions that make sense to ask in this early > part can resemble those in the first part of the Go survey: > https://blog.golang.org/survey2017-results (I especially like the > questions about the area of development and server vs cli apps vs > libraries). I also like their questions about what environments teams > deploy programs to. It would also be worth asking if the apps > developed are customer-facing or internal. > > 5) I think an interesting question would be what preferred js > solution, if any, teams adopt -- i.e. ghcjs, typescript, purescript, > raw js, etc. > > 6) for the "why did you stop" question, there are a good range of > potential multi-choice answers that can be drawn from with the rust > user survey: > https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/09/05/Rust-2017-Survey-Results.html > > Cheers, > Gershom > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 3:32 PM Taylor Fausak wrote: > > > > I'm not entirely sure what official support would look like. A few things > > come to mind: > > > > 1. Simply putting "official" somewhere in the title, such as: Official 2018 > > state of Haskell survey. > > > > 2. Putting something about Haskell.org in the description of the survey, > > such as: Sponsored by Haskell.org. > > > > 3. Announcing the survey through channels that I may not be aware of. Or > > helping me announce the survey through various channels (mailing lists, > > Reddit, and so on) by mentioning Haskell.org. > > > > I'm sure there are more ways that I'm not thinking of. > > > > Perhaps it would be better to state my goal and see what, if anything, can > > be to achieve that goal? My goal is for this survey to be *the* > > authoritative Haskell survey and for the community to broadly accept it > > results. In particular I would like to avoid reactions like these to the > > recent FP Complete survey: > > > > > I browse r/haskell all the time and follow FPco on Twitter, and I wasn't > > > aware of this survey. [1] > > > > > It should not be surprising to think that fp complete has much better > > > outreach to Stackage users than to non Stackage users. [2] > > > > > Any survey hosted by FPComplete is biased towards users of stack, for > > > reasons that should be self evident. [3] > > > > Similar sentiments have been expressed about last year's Haskell Weekly > > survey: > > > > > Haskell Weekly's reputation is tainted as it appears to be seen as > > > partisan (and I tend to agree). [4] > > > > > one of those surveys is from FP Complete and one of them is from someone > > > who I would consider very partisan in these kind of d
Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey
Hi Taylor. We're discussing this in the committee. I agree that to the extent they can accurately reflect something, language surveys are useful, and appreciate that you want to run a useful survey, and certainly want to encourage and help you in making it as broad and useful as possible. That said, I don't know if slapping a "haskell.org" label on the survey will help manage the biggest drivers of selection bias -- which is not only about who chooses to respond, but about who is reached through what mechanisms. (I don't know the relative importance of response-bias vs. outreach-bias in general, and would be curious if somebody has some good research on that to point to). I honestly don't know if we have enough channels _in general_ to do a good survey, no matter who runs it or how at all! Regardless of the decision we come to, here are a few of my personal thoughts on the questions you have thus far, and what could be added: 1) A question "how did you hear about this survey" -- this could at least help to disentangle outreach-bias, or notice it, depending on if it induces any correlations. 2) A question on how long after a new GHC release users upgrade -- both personally, and at work. 3) Distinguishing between personal and work build-systems in the relevant question. 4) I think the sorts of questions that make sense to ask in this early part can resemble those in the first part of the Go survey: https://blog.golang.org/survey2017-results (I especially like the questions about the area of development and server vs cli apps vs libraries). I also like their questions about what environments teams deploy programs to. It would also be worth asking if the apps developed are customer-facing or internal. 5) I think an interesting question would be what preferred js solution, if any, teams adopt -- i.e. ghcjs, typescript, purescript, raw js, etc. 6) for the "why did you stop" question, there are a good range of potential multi-choice answers that can be drawn from with the rust user survey: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/09/05/Rust-2017-Survey-Results.html Cheers, Gershom On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 3:32 PM Taylor Fausak wrote: > > I'm not entirely sure what official support would look like. A few things > come to mind: > > 1. Simply putting "official" somewhere in the title, such as: Official 2018 > state of Haskell survey. > > 2. Putting something about Haskell.org in the description of the survey, such > as: Sponsored by Haskell.org. > > 3. Announcing the survey through channels that I may not be aware of. Or > helping me announce the survey through various channels (mailing lists, > Reddit, and so on) by mentioning Haskell.org. > > I'm sure there are more ways that I'm not thinking of. > > Perhaps it would be better to state my goal and see what, if anything, can be > to achieve that goal? My goal is for this survey to be *the* authoritative > Haskell survey and for the community to broadly accept it results. In > particular I would like to avoid reactions like these to the recent FP > Complete survey: > > > I browse r/haskell all the time and follow FPco on Twitter, and I wasn't > > aware of this survey. [1] > > > It should not be surprising to think that fp complete has much better > > outreach to Stackage users than to non Stackage users. [2] > > > Any survey hosted by FPComplete is biased towards users of stack, for > > reasons that should be self evident. [3] > > Similar sentiments have been expressed about last year's Haskell Weekly > survey: > > > Haskell Weekly's reputation is tainted as it appears to be seen as partisan > > (and I tend to agree). [4] > > > one of those surveys is from FP Complete and one of them is from someone > > who I would consider very partisan in these kind of discussions. [5] > > > For the love of god stop posting those surveys. They're not convincing and > > obviously flawed. [6] > > I don't expect to be able to make everyone happy, but I think that presenting > this year's survey as sponsored by both Haskell Weekly and Haskell.org would > go a long way toward making it acceptable to a broad range of the Haskell > community. > > I hope that helps! > > [1]: > https://np.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9mm05d/2018_haskell_survey_results/e7gplya/ > [2]: > https://np.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8tc8pr/fp_complete_launches_new_blockchain_auditing/e188ftv/?context=3 > [3]: > https://np.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9mm05d/2018_haskell_survey_results/e7gpfwe/ > [4]: > https://np.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9mm05d/2018_haskell_survey_results/e7ka8xn/ > [5]: > https://np.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8tc8pr/fp_complete_launches_new_blockchain_auditing/e187pzq/?context=1 > [6]: > https://np.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8uw9hw/psa_cabal_breaks_with_yaml0831_on_ghc_710_and/e1lfzgr/?context=1 > > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Neil Mitchell wrote: > > Hi Taylor, > > What does official support look like? I don't think there's anything above > and
[Haskell-community] New Videos for Haskell.org Homepage
I wanted to call people's attention to this PR: https://github.com/haskell-infra/hl/pull/229 The videos are overdue for updating, and the suggestions look good to me, but a bit more feedback (even if just a flood of thumbs ups :-)) wouldn't hurt before pulling the trigger. -g ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
[Haskell-community] hackage redesign discussions
If people want to participate there are now a space of design and ux-tickets on the hackage tracker. I've tried to tag them all with "discussion". https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues Hopefully I can collect small changes and make style-only update compound update proposal, that will be followed by a small style-only update to the main server. This is important because we want everything to be largely settled for the haddock release, to ensure that the final design of it meshes with what we iterate to on hackage: https://github.com/haskell/haddock/pull/721 -g ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
[Haskell-community] new governance page on wiki
I created this page to help further factor out and centralize information about he profusion of bodies we now have, and help direct people where they may want to go to report issues: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_Governance It should be a useful place to direct people to when they want to know "who do I talk to about X issue”. --Gershom ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
[Haskell-community] ANN: New Haskell.org Committee Members
Following the self-nomination period and discussion, the Haskell.org committee has selected the following members for a new three-year term, expiring 2020: * Tikhon Jelvis * Ryan Trinkle (reappointment) * George Wilson As per the rules of the committee, this discussion was held among the current members of the committee, and the outgoing members of the committee who were not seeking reappointment. Thank you to all the many candidates who submitted a self-nomination. We received a number of strong nominations. We would encourage all those who nominated themselves to consider self-nominating again in the future. The outgoing members are: John Wiegley and Alan Zimmerman. Thanks both for your service! Regards, Gershom ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
As an update, the "getting started" section has not been worked on sufficiently as of yet. However, we have an upcoming platform and ghc release again, and as the os x and windows minimal installers remain out-of-date (and increasingly broken) I've taken the "minimal" (pardon the pun) step of trying to leave nearly everything as is but pointing the downloads there to minimal "via the platform" rather than via the outdated methods. I know this is not where we hoped to be yet, but its a small stopgap step that i hope people can be ok with while other things get sorted out. Thanks everyone for their patience and understanding. Best, Gershom On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 5:20 AM, Friedrich Wiemer <friedrichwie...@gmail.com> wrote: > +1 from me, too. > > On 01.09.2016 09:41, John Wiegley wrote: >>>>>>> "GB" == Gershom B <gersh...@gmail.com> writes: >> >> GB> I think this is a very good point being made. We should disengangle the >> GB> installer question from the “getting started” question. Someone on >> reddit >> GB> even proposed having two seperate pages entirely. >> >> GB> (Again, I give the caveat I’m speaking just for myself here, and thinking >> GB> this through as an idea I’d like to hear others’ thoughts on). >> >> Yes, I also think this is a great idea! +1 >> > > > ___ > Haskell-community mailing list > Haskell-community@haskell.org > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community > ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
[Haskell-community] Haskell Wiki and Infra
(changing the subject line to reflect this thread) On September 1, 2016 at 7:48:46 PM, Patrick Pelletier (c...@funwithsoftware.org) wrote: > > In that vein, is there a place to file bugs against HaskellWiki? Or is > that one of the areas in need of a volunteer? My own personal itch I'd > like to scratch is the lack of diffs on the wiki: > > https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2016-April/123701.html > > Many thanks to the Haskell Committee, to FP Complete, and to all of the > volunteers who work on Haskell! For issues with the haskell wiki as well as all other infrastructure problems in general, the ad...@haskell.org mail alias hits a group of infra maintainers. A github tracker that’s more widely advertised as well might not be a bad idea, since its become so standard. Over the years our current infra/ops team has gotten rather busy in other arenas, so we could use volunteers nearly everywhere (anyone with any sysadmin experience, even if just on a personal box, and who feels they’ll have ongoing time to donate, please email me! and again, anyone who can help deal with mail stuff would be especially appreciated at this moment). We keep things humming, but haven’t really freed up the time to tackle much in the way of pushing things forward. But you’re correct that the wiki could absolutely use a volunteer. I made a bit of an effort last year to get things rolling, but it stalled out pretty quickly (https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2015-April/119219.html). Perhaps the call was too ambitious and people didn’t know where to start. Maybe it just needed more energy and will to drive it than any of us had in supply at the moment. We _did_ get a team of people approving new accounts instead of just one overworked individual. (Thank you to all who have done that and continue to! It irks me that we need such a manual process, but the waves of spam we got before periodically despite our capcha efforts were far worse). I can’t quite infer from your message if you are volunteering yourself. If you are, thank you so much for your offer! Please email me and we’ll coordinate how to get you the right login credentials, etc. Best, Gershom (Note, by the way, those who may be hesitant to volunteer not out of lack of time or desire to help, but out of fear you don’t have enough experience or knowledge — most admin work [to be honest like most programming] isn’t knowing what to do right away, but instead about knowing some desired end goal, and then being willing to wade through a bunch of searching and documentation to come up with a plan, talking it over with folks, perhaps experimenting a bit, and eventually finally knowing what to do. And, of course, knowing which experiments are irreversable and shouldn’t be conducted :-). And the hardest step usually isn’t in fixing any problem, but in making the mental leap from “this is a problem someone should fix” to “this is a problem I will fix”.) ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
And... before I had the chance to pull something together, someone else jumped in and made this very nice proposal on the website tracker: https://github.com/haskell-infra/hl/issues/176 That seems like a good basis for discussion :-) (Note that this presupposes is to renaming minimal to the Haskell Toolchain, as per the discussion at https://github.com/haskell/haskell-platform/issues/250) --Gershom On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Gershom B <gersh...@gmail.com> wrote: > On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlo...@gmail.com) wrote: >> > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more. > > I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page. There > are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for some settings > (especially those which may have limited ongoing network access), despite > being warned that it is not typically recommended, so I think it makes sense > to continue to provide it in some fashon, albeit less prominent, for the time > being. > > If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some text > for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying to take > this discussion into account. > > —Gershom ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
Re: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on this ML?
On August 29, 2016 at 11:15:19 AM, Paolo Giarrusso (paolo.giarru...@uni-tuebingen.de) wrote: > If the poll was announced there, there would still be extra friction. > But IIUC only the mailing list was announced there. There is no poll. There is a modest discussion kicked off by Jason Dagit (who used to serve on the committee, but has not been on it for some time now) about a modest change (at this point swapping the bitrotted minimal installers for the HP minimal installers which are current). The committee does not operate by poll, it operates on the basis of broad discussion (with this list being the preferred venue) and then making choices amongst committee members as informed by that discussion. This is laid out at https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell.org_committee > I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe > solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow > discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee > can't be expected to listen to the community”. It means that committee members should be expected to chase all over social media and sort through lots of poor signal/noise ratio to find potentially relevant discussions at all times. Rather, it is better to centralize these things to the extent possible.That’s all. —gershom ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
[Haskell-community] addition of http://www.happylearnhaskelltutorial.com/ to haskell website resources?
There’s been a pull request open to add http://www.happylearnhaskelltutorial.com/ to the website under /documentation I haven’t read it myself all the way through. It does look like it has developed a fair amount of material by now. Do people think it should be added as a tutorial? —Gershom ___ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
