Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Heidi G Lerner via Heb-naco]

This is an interesting discussion:


Her is my take:

Jamsin, the examples you listed are “constructs” of two nouns connected 
together, and when the first word of the construct ends with a long vowel, the 
following  letter, (in this case, the first letter of the second word), loses 
its dagesh, like it would within a single word.  I’m not one hundred percent 
sure if this happens consistently; there may be exceptions, but I believe this 
is the answer.
Unfortuantely, I could not find this documented anywhere. Cliff, or our other 
noted grammarians, could you please weigh in on my theory or take it one step 
further.

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica Emerita, Stanford University 
Libraries





From: Heb-naco  on behalf 
of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco 
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2023 1:51 PM
To: Cliff Miller ; heb-naco ; Rose 
Shoshanah Seidman 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Hi, Cliff. Yes, technically and ideally, you are correct. But expecting 
catalogers to know when a second word should aspirated would be expecting a 
knowledge of Hebrew grammar that is unrealistic for almost all of us. We 
suffice with knowledge

Hi, Cliff.



Yes, technically and ideally, you are correct. But expecting catalogers to know 
when a second word should aspirated would be expecting a knowledge of Hebrew 
grammar that is unrealistic for almost all of us. We suffice with knowledge of 
prefixes/little words and their impact on בג"ד כפ"ת/beged kefet, i.e., that it 
is correctly romanized bi-Vene.



Exceptions areמראה כהן  and שפתי כהן, Marʼeh Khohen and Śifte Khohen, 
respectively, which are from a piyut and a pasuk, respectively, so we try to 
follow the sources. But there are still plenty of records with Marʼeh/Śifte 
K/kohen…





From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Cliff Miller via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2023 10:14 AM
To: Rose Shoshanah Seidman ; Hebrew Name Authority 
Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון



Did I overlook an obvious answer? I do not recall seeing anyone who suggested 
Bi-Vene Verak Ki-Vene Verak Li-Vene Verak Mi-Bene Verak Shouldn’t this be the 
accepted form? Rabbi Clifford B Miller, MLS, DD Home: [973] 228-3139 Library of 
the

Did I overlook an obvious answer?

I do not recall seeing anyone who suggested

Bi-Vene Verak

Ki-Vene Verak

Li-Vene Verak

Mi-Bene Verak



Shouldn’t this be the accepted form?



Rabbi Clifford B Miller, MLS, DD   Home: [973] 228-3139

Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary


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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

Hi, Cliff.

Yes, technically and ideally, you are correct. But expecting catalogers to know 
when a second word should aspirated would be expecting a knowledge of Hebrew 
grammar that is unrealistic for almost all of us. We suffice with knowledge of 
prefixes/little words and their impact on בג"ד כפ"ת/beged kefet, i.e., that it 
is correctly romanized bi-Vene.

Exceptions areמראה כהן  and שפתי כהן, Marʼeh Khohen and Śifte Khohen, 
respectively, which are from a piyut and a pasuk, respectively, so we try to 
follow the sources. But there are still plenty of records with Marʼeh/Śifte 
K/kohen…


From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Cliff Miller via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2023 10:14 AM
To: Rose Shoshanah Seidman ; Hebrew Name Authority 
Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Did I overlook an obvious answer? I do not recall seeing anyone who suggested 
Bi-Vene Verak Ki-Vene Verak Li-Vene Verak Mi-Bene Verak Shouldn’t this be the 
accepted form? Rabbi Clifford B Miller, MLS, DD Home: [973] 228-3139 Library of 
the
Did I overlook an obvious answer?
I do not recall seeing anyone who suggested
Bi-Vene Verak
Ki-Vene Verak
Li-Vene Verak
Mi-Bene Verak

Shouldn’t this be the accepted form?

Rabbi Clifford B Miller, MLS, DD   Home: [973] 228-3139
Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary


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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Cliff Miller via Heb-naco]

Did I overlook an obvious answer?
I do not recall seeing anyone who suggested
Bi-Vene Verak
Ki-Vene Verak
Li-Vene Verak
Mi-Bene Verak

Shouldn’t this be the accepted form?

Rabbi Clifford B Miller, MLS, DD   Home: [973] 228-3139
Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Rose Shoshanah Seidman via Heb-naco]

Thanks Yossi. Such a cute story!  Loved it and was laughing out loud all by 
myself after my volunteer shift
Be well
Shoshanah

Get Outlook for 
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 >

From: Heb-naco  on 
behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 11:04:44 AM
To: Gottschalk, Haim ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
; Freedman, Vanessa 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון


Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew 
names according to the rules of the Hebrew language.

A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there 
are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of 
those there are 2 records from LC).

Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed 
according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, 
etc.)



That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in 
the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party  complained that the 
government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical rules, especially a 
case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are 
at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, 
and that ended the discussion.



Yossi





From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM
To: Freedman, Vanessa ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון



Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant. yun. It 
is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for 
בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that 
said I also

Hi Vanessa,



Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign 
loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in 
Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also 
search for בבני ברק and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to have 
the B instead of a V, for the sake of searching, similar to the idea of how we 
Romanize בירושלים as bi-Yerushalayim instead of birushalayim.



My 3.37 cents.



Best,

Haim

__

Haim A. Gottschalk

Hebraica and Judaica Cataloging Librarian

Asian and Middle Eastern Division, Israel and Judaica Section

Onsite Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and alternate Fridays



The Library of Congress

101 Independence Ave, SE, LM-537

Washington, DC 20540-4222



Direct: 202-707-2498

h...@loc.gov<mailto:h...@loc.gov>



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From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:02 AM
To: Heb-NACO (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון



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How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison 
Librarian: 

How would you Romanise  בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word?



Thanks



Vanessa



Vanessa Freedman

Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies



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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco]

Thank you for your detailed and well explained response, Jasmin.

Haim

From: Shinohara, Jasmin 
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 2:15 PM
To: Galron, Joseph ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
; Gottschalk, Haim ; Freedman, Vanessa 

Subject: RE: Romanisation of בביזנטיון


CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external source. Please 
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Hi, all. Thank you, Vanessa, for your question. I think a few different aspects 
of romanization have gotten mixed together.


  1.  Per HCM-RDA, p. 19, the standard romanized forms of place names are based 
on the form found in E-Sh. and, if not found there, the form in Entsiklopedyah 
ha-‘Ivrit (E. ha-‘I.). E-Sh. has an entry for בִּיזַנְטִי and within the 
definition gives the form בִּיזַנְטוֹן, but there is no entry or usage of 
ביזנטיון in E-Sh. The entry for ביזנטיון is in v.8 of E. ha-‘I.; unfortunately, 
the Internet Archive 
scan<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://archive.org/details/2_20200322_20200322_1243/Encyclopaedia_Hebraica_Vol8/page/n179/mode/2up__;!!KGKeukY!wX_oX9zCy64r5wWQ-_jjruyMKN56987jlWiC7dcbJvg5M0a-Ua5pITVXPaG3jOgSwpZSRHtf0rSAgi8YDw$
 > is a bit blurry and it’s not clear what, if any, vocalization is present 
under the letters ב and ט. I’ve requested the hard copy from our off-site 
storage. The ṿaṿ has a ḥolam, so it’s definitely Biz…on not Biz…un.



  1.  The examples given of בני ברק and בבל are both of Hebrew names/words; as 
such, rules of aspiration apply, yielding the forms be-Vavel and bi-Vene Berak, 
along with bi-Verit ha-Mo’atsot as Yossi explained. Hebrew grammar rules 
applied to Hebrew names cannot be used to infer treatment of non-Hebrew/foreign 
names. (I.e., be-Vavel =/=> be-Viz…on)


  1.  ביזנטיון is a foreign word/name, as is ברלין. Searching LC for forms of 
בברלין yields the expected be-Berlin. The same treatment would follow for 
בביזנטיון à be-Bizanṭyon/be-Bizanṭiyon (pending what’s found in E. ha-‘I.). 
For בברוקלין, LC has a mix of be- and bi-Bruḳlin. Notably, there is no 
bX-Vruḳlin. Per HCM-RDA, p. 17, “These initial clusters retain the effect of 
vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a 
ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.” Bi-Bruḳlin is correct.


  1.  בירושלים is romanized as bi-Yerushalayim for separate, unrelated reasons, 
and has no relation to the romanization of other place names that either do or 
do not follow Hebrew grammar rules of aspiration and vowel-heightening 
(depending on their origin).


  1.  HCM-RDA, p. 18, specifically states that the correct form is be-Polin, 
not be-Folin. I’m sure all our catalogs have wrong forms, not just LC. 

Regarding the instruction “A few loan words are also treated as though exempt 
from the rules governing the aspiration/non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f 
when preceded by an open syllable”, I agree that it could be more helpful. I 
think most loan words are treated as exempt from the rules of 
aspiration/non-aspiration; exceptions are indicated in the Romanization 
FAQ<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization*20FAQ__;JQ!!KGKeukY!wX_oX9zCy64r5wWQ-_jjruyMKN56987jlWiC7dcbJvg5M0a-Ua5pITVXPaG3jOgSwpZSRHtf0rQN-cRoRA$
 > (see entries under ב and פ). I noted that this section needs revision.

Please let me know if there are any questions! Thanks, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=upenn@lists.osu.edu>>
 On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 12:05 PM
To: Gottschalk, Haim mailto:h...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority 
Funnel mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>; Freedman, 
Vanessa mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew 
names according to the rules of the Hebrew language.
A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there 
are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of 
those there are 2 records from LC).
Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed 
according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, 
etc.)

That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in 
the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party  complained that the 
government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical rules, especially a 
case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are 
at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, 
and that ended the discussion.

Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM
To: Freedman, Vanessa mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>>; 
Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Hi Vane

Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

Hi, all. Thank you, Vanessa, for your question. I think a few different aspects 
of romanization have gotten mixed together.


  1.  Per HCM-RDA, p. 19, the standard romanized forms of place names are based 
on the form found in E-Sh. and, if not found there, the form in Entsiklopedyah 
ha-‘Ivrit (E. ha-‘I.). E-Sh. has an entry for בִּיזַנְטִי and within the 
definition gives the form בִּיזַנְטוֹן, but there is no entry or usage of 
ביזנטיון in E-Sh. The entry for ביזנטיון is in v.8 of E. ha-‘I.; unfortunately, 
the Internet Archive 
scan<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://archive.org/details/2_20200322_20200322_1243/Encyclopaedia_Hebraica_Vol8/page/n179/mode/2up__;!!KGKeukY!yQyQSvbL6UjPk1AjlWh-o1QvdYKkQrtpLmkCjtlDSfeB-94F5zS8Utc76KgAQk0HZ3-z2JvM6dBtl8DxfETxfA$
 > is a bit blurry and it’s not clear what, if any, vocalization is present 
under the letters ב and ט. I’ve requested the hard copy from our off-site 
storage. The ṿaṿ has a ḥolam, so it’s definitely Biz…on not Biz…un.



  1.  The examples given of בני ברק and בבל are both of Hebrew names/words; as 
such, rules of aspiration apply, yielding the forms be-Vavel and bi-Vene Berak, 
along with bi-Verit ha-Mo’atsot as Yossi explained. Hebrew grammar rules 
applied to Hebrew names cannot be used to infer treatment of non-Hebrew/foreign 
names. (I.e., be-Vavel =/=> be-Viz…on)


  1.  ביזנטיון is a foreign word/name, as is ברלין. Searching LC for forms of 
בברלין yields the expected be-Berlin. The same treatment would follow for 
בביזנטיון --> be-Bizanṭyon/be-Bizanṭiyon (pending what’s found in E. ha-‘I.). 
For בברוקלין, LC has a mix of be- and bi-Bruḳlin. Notably, there is no 
bX-Vruḳlin. Per HCM-RDA, p. 17, “These initial clusters retain the effect of 
vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a 
ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.” Bi-Bruḳlin is correct.


  1.  בירושלים is romanized as bi-Yerushalayim for separate, unrelated reasons, 
and has no relation to the romanization of other place names that either do or 
do not follow Hebrew grammar rules of aspiration and vowel-heightening 
(depending on their origin).


  1.  HCM-RDA, p. 18, specifically states that the correct form is be-Polin, 
not be-Folin. I’m sure all our catalogs have wrong forms, not just LC. 

Regarding the instruction “A few loan words are also treated as though exempt 
from the rules governing the aspiration/non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f 
when preceded by an open syllable”, I agree that it could be more helpful. I 
think most loan words are treated as exempt from the rules of 
aspiration/non-aspiration; exceptions are indicated in the Romanization 
FAQ<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization*20FAQ__;JQ!!KGKeukY!yQyQSvbL6UjPk1AjlWh-o1QvdYKkQrtpLmkCjtlDSfeB-94F5zS8Utc76KgAQk0HZ3-z2JvM6dBtl8BN96sKZQ$
 > (see entries under ב and פ). I noted that this section needs revision.

Please let me know if there are any questions! Thanks, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of 
Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 12:05 PM
To: Gottschalk, Haim ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
; Freedman, Vanessa 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew 
names according to the rules of the Hebrew language.
A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there 
are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of 
those there are 2 records from LC).
Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed 
according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, 
etc.)

That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in 
the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party  complained that the 
government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical rules, especially a 
case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are 
at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, 
and that ended the discussion.

Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM
To: Freedman, Vanessa mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>>; 
Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant. yun. It 
is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for 
בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that 
said I also

Hi Vanessa,

Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign 
loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in 
Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also 
search for בבני ברק and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to 

Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco]

Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew 
names according to the rules of the Hebrew language.
A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there 
are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of 
those there are 2 records from LC).
Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed 
according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, 
etc.)

That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in 
the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party  complained that the 
government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical rules, especially a 
case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are 
at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, 
and that ended the discussion.

Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM
To: Freedman, Vanessa ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant. yun. It 
is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for 
בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that 
said I also

Hi Vanessa,

Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign 
loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in 
Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also 
search for בבני ברק and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to have 
the B instead of a V, for the sake of searching, similar to the idea of how we 
Romanize בירושלים as bi-Yerushalayim instead of birushalayim.

My 3.37 cents.

Best,
Haim
__
Haim A. Gottschalk
Hebraica and Judaica Cataloging Librarian
Asian and Middle Eastern Division, Israel and Judaica Section
Onsite Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and alternate Fridays

The Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave, SE, LM-537
Washington, DC 20540-4222

Direct: 202-707-2498
h...@loc.gov<mailto:h...@loc.gov>

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9BEEE.9BF922B0]

THIS EMAIL IS NOT CLASSIFIED
Expressing my views. Ideas & opinions in this email are not intended to 
represent those of the Library of Congress or its staff.
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail




From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:02 AM
To: Heb-NACO (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון


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How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison 
Librarian: 
How would you Romanise  בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word?

Thanks

Vanessa

Vanessa Freedman
Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies

Pronouns: she/her
Work pattern: Tues-Thurs 10am to 6pm

Main Library
UCL Library Services
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WC1E 6BT

Tel: 020 7679 2598
E-mail: v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>
Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Robert M. TALBOTT via Heb-naco]

Hi Vanessa:

The HCM pp.17-18 "Foreign loan words" discusses this point briefly, but the
only guidance provided is " A few loan words are also treated as though
exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v,
k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable."  There are a couple of
examples, but that's the extent of it.
For my money, I'm fine with either in the absence of a solid rule, but if I
had to pick one, "be-Vizantyon" based on the example of "be-Vavel" from the
Bible e.g. Jeremiah 51:42.

My two cents

Bob

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 6:09 AM Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think
> be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B
> after be- because it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman
> Subject Liaison Librarian:
>
> How would you Romanise  בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think
> be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B
> after be- because it’s a foreign loan word?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Vanessa
>
>
>
> Vanessa Freedman
>
> Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies
>
>
>
> Pronouns: she/her
>
> Work pattern: Tues-Thurs 10am to 6pm
>
>
>
> Main Library
>
> UCL Library Services
>
> Library, Culture, Collections & Open Science
>
> Gower Street
>
> London
>
> WC1E 6BT
>
>
>
> Tel: 020 7679 2598
>
> E-mail: v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk
>
> Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman
>
> Website: 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!2vnEP_agcte2wulEzeo91ExYv5Cmswl8evrqThq4Rhv2VBsLrgpPSiOuoqdv9Rip2ceT9GB-Qi3P2r81T4y-CTFD9OgrQq5VCQ$
>  
> 
>
>
>
> **Please remember the environment and only print this if necessary**
>
>
> ___
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-- 
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

130 Doe

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco]

Hi Vanessa,

Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign 
loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in 
Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also 
search for בבני ברק and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to have 
the B instead of a V, for the sake of searching, similar to the idea of how we 
Romanize בירושלים as bi-Yerushalayim instead of birushalayim.

My 3.37 cents.

Best,
Haim
__
Haim A. Gottschalk
Hebraica and Judaica Cataloging Librarian
Asian and Middle Eastern Division, Israel and Judaica Section
Onsite Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and alternate Fridays

The Library of Congress
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From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Freedman, Vanessa 
via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:02 AM
To: Heb-NACO (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון


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How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison 
Librarian: 
How would you Romanise  בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word?

Thanks

Vanessa

Vanessa Freedman
Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies

Pronouns: she/her
Work pattern: Tues-Thurs 10am to 6pm

Main Library
UCL Library Services
Library, Culture, Collections & Open Science
Gower Street
London
WC1E 6BT

Tel: 020 7679 2598
E-mail: v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>
Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman
Website: 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!03g9LbhSqzyH8_oUJAZ98QJlD5x5Vdc4uYmHnulyje_nHANfCo5LHxAXOfvudEZqa1TIe6YejQ56tV9Ltw$
 
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[Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

[Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco]

How would you Romanise  בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon 
but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because 
it’s a foreign loan word?

Thanks

Vanessa

Vanessa Freedman
Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies

Pronouns: she/her
Work pattern: Tues-Thurs 10am to 6pm

Main Library
UCL Library Services
Library, Culture, Collections & Open Science
Gower Street
London
WC1E 6BT

Tel: 020 7679 2598
E-mail: v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk
Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman
Website: 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!0NLGSmZCIJq7_oWDMaNiYxLaV6RJ4ntfT_nwD58UlBCk-TdFb_AShY4oAQlh3H3j88cBfRzqqTpsc-8MeYu3Yk7DjLA$
 


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