Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-10-30 03:04]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I am calling those who have integrity to resign from GNU project, that
>   > is different as it is not a requirement.
> 
> We need people of integrity in the GNU Project.  I hope people who
> have integrity will remain, not resign.

If I use Wordnet definitions, it is enough to clarify "integrity".

* Overview of noun integrity

The noun integrity has 2 senses (first 2 from tagged texts)
1. (3) integrity, unity, wholeness -- (an undivided or unbroken completeness or 
totality with nothing wanting; "the integrity of the nervous system is required 
for normal development"; "he took measures to insure the territorial unity of 
Croatia")
2. (1) integrity -- (moral soundness; "he expects to find in us the common 
honesty and integrity of men of business"; "they admired his scrupulous 
professional integrity")

Now, how is it morally sound to be supported by GNU Project, by its
founder who created everything for the Guix project to be supported by
GNU Project, and to be supported by the FSF, and then to enjoy
donations of US $100,000 and then for Guix leader to publish
defamatory statements on its own website?

And then to call others to join him in his "Oh, I don't like your
joke" direction, let us "cancel Stallman". What? That is hate movement
within GNU project.

Integrity would mean, for example, to verify the facts, to verify if
the "MIT Episode", as Ludovic mentioned to me, is based on facts or is
it based on rumors, and then to apologize. Integrity means being
friend to GNU project, free software philosophy and friendship that is
established in the project. Not dividing the community.

That somebody got "offended" is not same to "offensive", there was
nothing offensive in the jokes neither in the "MIT episode".

Integrity means being either fully friend or fully enemy.

Integrity would mean to either fully abide by the own Code of Conduct
of Guix and stop with the harassment, or to recognize that one is
enemy of the Guix project, and GNU project, and RMS, and abandon such.

I am not saying what is better, in my opinion, best is to be friends,
and to solve issues by communication, best would be to solve issue
with facts. Obviously one group of people in Guix rows does not
understand any facts, they react overly emotional and think that their
social cause is just and they can destroy what they want.

Or integrity would mean, for example, to take a stance , not
apologize, but then also not pretend to be friend to GNU project and
its core values, as one of its core values was not to introduce other
politics but free software in the project.

I am myself loving Guix and Guile, and would not like seeing
developers go out of the project.

But I have got very bad impression of their ideals and goals, and I
would not like GNU project be run by that type of a group. In my
opinion they are in serious doubt. At one point of time in future,
they may get to senses, but now they are not.

Really good talk on "why everyone is getting so offended". Why Is
Everyone Getting So Offended?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kGBQSXX_GU

Jean

P.S. It wasn't the abort joke, it was a "Federal Censorship" joke.


25.7.4 Aborting a Program

Future Change Warning: Proposed Federal censorship regulations may
prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of
calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an
acceptable way of terminating a program.

The above is more humor then a simple joke, it is not "hate speech",
it is a joke. If one does not live in the USA, may take it out of the
context. But that is certainly not a reason for defamation. It's joke.

Finally, Stallman did not say what Ludovic is claiming to be the
problem with the "MIT episode":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU

Integrity means: to verify the facts and tell what is truth even if it
is not comfortable.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-10 22:52]:
> P,
> > And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
> get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
> So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
> would happen in before, not now.

GNU project is apolitical. No politics other but free software
please. Guix people, stop with the feminism movement in GNU projects,
open up your feminists websites and speak what you want. But use your
money please, not FSF's please.

I did not pay much money, but I did pay for Guix. Would I know they
are to try to hurt GNU community by introducing their political views,
I would never. 

> > Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.

Stallman will always lead GNU, be it alive or dead, because he has
established free software philosophy by which FSF acts, and by which
free software exists.

He is now doing important actions such as planning or influencing
decision makers, something that simple programmers sitting behind
their keyboards cannot understand. See:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

> I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
> needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
> be removed because he is not perfect, right?

GNU project is not about being perfect but about efficiency in
providing free software.

GNU is functional in itself, it need no feminism or anti fascists or
nazis to help, no politics is welcome in GNU project as GNU software
is for everybody. See freedom zero at
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html and promote freedom zero
also in the behavior of developers.

> Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement,
> there is a vote of all the members to do that?

There is no vote, they are dictators. It is not democracy.

> p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW
> speech.

Sorry I am getting old to understand SJW:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior

"Social justice warrior" (SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual
who promotes socially progressive views, including feminism, civil
rights, and multiculturalism,[1][2] as well as identity politics.[3]
The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they
are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated
conviction,[4] and engaging in disingenuous arguments.[5]

OK fine, now I get it, that is exactly what GNU project is not for!

GNU project is for everybody, it is not a platform to be abused by
feminists or any kind of political activists!

> p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.

Exactly!

Jean Louis

P.S. Please don't make abort() jokes or you are not welcome in Guix.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear P,

See my comments below.

* P  [2019-10-10 22:33]:
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:
> 
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > I don't mind.
> >
> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix 
> > pages.
> 
> This is what they actually said: GNU is not fulfilling its mission
> when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we
> want to reach out to.

That is incorrect. GNU is free operating system, and by writing this
from a Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre system it is a simple fact that it is
fullfiling its mission.

Let us be specific and speak of specific facts, concrete, and let us
avoid generalizations. Ludovic Courtès and the succession company by
conducting fears, uncertainty and doubts[1] and by publishing
generalized, fact-less defamation of Dr. Richard Stallman are simply
trying to take over the authority and powers in GNU project.

However, the effect they got is quite opposite, people don't trust
them.

Even people outside of GNU project and those not being supporters of
free software are expressing their opinions on Internet calling them
"traitors" and other bad names that shall not be mentioned at this
place. 

That is the mob's reaction on their libelous statement, based on
emotions, again not on facts. Their libelous statement itself was
based also on emotions and fears of Ludovic Courtès and the succession
company that they will lose their own reputation in their own lives
due to connection to GNU project itself run by Dr. Richard Stallman.

I say this, if my friend is my friend, I stay loyal to my friend,
despite the rumors in background. Rumors are not facts, and there is
no public figure in the world of last 30 years that has not been
attacked by rumors one way or the other.

But rumor is not a fact.

> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own
> admission as well.

It is not true.

It is very easy to say "it is true" and accuse RMS and further inflate
accusations.

It is very hard to provide facts.

The fact is that Ludovic Courtès is not a free software activist. He
cannot represent what he said. He is hacker, he is free software
developer, but not activist in the sense that he pushes free software
forward. Do you see the difference in what I am talking about?

Why I am saying this? Because as of now, on his websites I do not see
mentioning of "free software" and any ideas related to free software.

Do you see here on his website any mentioning of the specific term
"free software"?
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Try searching for this term:

site:hpc.guix.info "free software" on search engines and you will see
his other website https://hpc.guix.info is not mentioning any
advancement of free software. He is hacker, programmer, developer of
free software, but it looks it just happens by chance, he found ground
to do it, which is all good and fine, but he is not public or loud
proponent of free software.

Nowhere on his personal pages he has mentioned important of the GNU
Project and free software and importance of Dr. Richard Stallman.

He likes free software, he develops it, all is fine, there are many
developers like that, and nobody asks him to be proponend or public
proponent for free software, he is free to do what he wish.

However, the fact that Ludovic Courtès is not a public proponent of
free software and that he never mentioned free software movements and
importances of it, that I know, does not qualify him, does not make
him trusted to say what he said on:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

It is my opinion and impression that many GNU developers joined the
GNU project, without being truly aware of free software ideas and
politics.

What did Ludovic Courtès do for free software in last month, or weeks
other but programming? He has just ruined the image of Guix, GNU, FSF
and Richard Stallman, and himself.

What did Richard Stallman do for free software in last 30 days? He
went to Microsoft Research and did a talk on free software. See this
article:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

That was September 4th 2019.

Did Ludovic Courtès ever did talk on free software?

Or just on Guix, Guile, and other technical stuff that he likes?

Now back to subject of this email, you said that Ludovic Courtès and
his succession company is right and that "GNU is not fullfiling its
mission" due to rumors about RMS, and I have given you my short
research of websites of Ludovic Courtès and have shown you and given
you short r

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Quiliro Ordóñez  [2019-10-11 01:27]:
> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> > lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> 
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
> information, on the basis that such material is considered
> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient.

Their censorship is for their very expressed support to feminism
movement. They are introducing politics into GNU project.

GNU project is apolitical to anything but free software.

They have broken their own deeds to be apolitical, and are abusing
GNU.org domain and Guix free system distribution to spread their
feminist views.

Reasons have been given to me by Ludovic Courtès, where he said it is
abort() joke and Emacs Virgin joke, see:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log

By the way Ludovic Courtès does not have any promotion of free
software politics on his website, so he never even mentioned the four
freedoms, he is not really proponent, he is programmer, but that is
not same. He is rather opportunist pushing himself and his own goals
forward. One cannot expect more but what he does now.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Vasya Boytsov  [2019-10-10 23:03]:
> I kindly ask to remove this statement from the Guix site. It's
> inappropriate, it's poisonous for the community (you can see this
> clearly now). Anyone can have their own opinion in this discussion,
> but _PLEASE_ can we divide OS development and politics?
> There are more appropriate places to post such statements. Having this
> post on a _Guix_ website is very bad for community health.
> I want to continue using Guix and contribute some packages, but with
> such a political involvement I can't.

See my answer here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2019-10/msg00037.html

That is exactly the problem and the problem was solved but just not
respected by those few who are taking stance on their politics, in
this case feminism movement, Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
supporters of the pro-feminist politics have published their
pro-feminist statement here:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ and
have not openly said what it is, neither stated the fact, but tried to
bring GNU community down for reasons of Thoughtcrime[1].

Ludovic Courtès said to me that reasons are of feminist nature:

- abort() joke, see the IRC log where he said to me it is about abort
  joke and "MIT episode": http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log
  search for "abort".

- see another evidence here where he introduces feminism stances on
  Emacs Virgin jokes: http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

Basically RMS is guilty of Thoughtcrime[1] and they (those proponent
of feminism movement) would like GNU without people who think different.

GNU project was always a apolitical and independent. That is why there
is freedom zero that anybody can use software for whatever purposes
they wish.

For example somebody could use free software, GPL licensed, to abort()
or prevent-abortion(), or to spy, create wars or prevent wars, publish
nazi propaganda or anti-fascist propaganda.

By introducing politics other but free software into GNU project
pages, those pro-feminist group of GNU maintainers have tried to make
GNU project political.

Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-11 13:53]:
> Le jeudi 10 octobre 2019 12:24:35 CEST, vous avez écrit :
> > * Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-10 11:55]:
> > > > I don't know how to defend anybody in public by silencing talk.
> > > 
> > > Answering whenever appropriate, currently only when asked to, and keep
> > > going this way.
> > 
> > I have no such mentality.
> > 
> > I am doing for RMS what I would like that other people do for
> > me. Stand up and raise the voice. Not wait. That is not me.
> 
> Maybe if you were in the position of rms you would think differently, better 
> acknowledging the different tensions et pressions out there.

Dear Alexandre,

I am sorry, I will take this to the mailing list, not let it be
private.

I do not know what RMS thinks, what I know is that GNU project shall
remain apolitical. The only politics that GNU project shall support is
"(1) that users should have control of their own computing (for
instance, through free software) and (2) supporting basic human rights
in computing. We don't require you as a contributor to agree with
these two points, but you do need to accept that our decisions will be
based on them." See:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

RMS has upheld the above points, and was always apolitical in regards
to free software. He knows well that free software can be used to
prevent abortions, and to make abortions. For example it could be
possible to make an automatic robotic hand that does abortion()
function without presence of doctors, and such could be done with free
software.

I know it because I have read freedom zero: "The freedom to run the
program as you wish" -- so it means AS YOU WISH. To kill, or prevent
killing, to abort or not about() I don't care. I am distributing free
software and truly giving that freedom to others.

GNU project shall remain apolitical for anything but free
software.

Thus feminist views of Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
feminists that have published their defaming and libelous statement
on: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
are not welcome on GNU project.

They are preventing contra-feminists to join the Guix project, GNU
project, due to their political views.

GNU project is welcoming feminists, and contra-feminists, but for as
long as the GNU project is not abused to spread out their propaganda.

And nobody is preventing them to publish their opinions outside of GNU
project. If they have balls for that.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear Ludovic,

Hello, how are you? I was on long travel, could not answer you earlier.

* Ludovic Courtès  [2019-10-10 16:29]:
> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
> Jean Louis  skribis:
> 
> > * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> >> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> >> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> >> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> >
> > I cannot expect anything else from you.
> 
> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.

I am sorry for your experience. I have not "setup the web page to
collect hatred messages against you". That you think that is my
purpose, that is your own opinion, but it is not.

I have set the page to show that there are people who think different
than you.

You have made your statement in public, and your statement introduces
other politics but free software politics into the GNU free software
spaces.

Guix is part of GNU project, and you are promoting your whatever other
politics. I do not know what exactly it is named, I think it is
feminism. Call it as you wish, because I am not interested in that
other politics. If I am interested I will read it.

GNU Project is not political. It is apolitical.

Did I ask you to tell me your facts to publish such opinions on GNU
Guix pages guix.gnu.org subdomain on GNU.ORG project?

Did you answer to me that it is because of abort() joke?

Here is the log proving so:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

"you've probably seen a number of events, like the "glibc abort joke"
episode, the latest episode with MIT, and more"

So you are the one introducing thought-frames and you are organizing
Thougtpolice Squad and introducing other politics into GNU Project but
free software politics.

I don't care of your feminism, or contra-feminism issues. I simply
don't. I am supporting GNU project for reasons of
non-discrimination. For reasons that it is for everybody, regardless
of their opinions.

You mentioned "the recent MIT episode", but did you read the
rebuttals?

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Is your opinion and statement going to change after reading facts and
rebuttals? Are you going to change your Guix statement due to
disagreements to your  feminism politics in Guix which is in the GNU
Project?

Could you have some balls and simply take out your feminism politics
out of GNU Project?

Was there not enough people telling you on Guix chat that for reasons
of your politics that they do not want to support Guix neither use
Guix?

Why are you imposing other directions in Guix system distribution,
others but "Freedom Zero" policies that Guix remains for everybody,
and not just for those who are on side of feminism?

> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if
> you don’t stop by yourself.

For as long is that statement on Guix website, and I live, I will not
stop.

For as long as you are bringing fear, uncertainty and doubt into what
was friendly GNU community of people of various opinions but agreeing
to provide GNU free software systems, I will not stop.

For as long as Guix as such and you keep pushing other politics into
GNU Project but politics of free software, I will not stop.

You can put me under your censorship, isn't that what you were doing
since the moment I tried asking you about facts?

Your own website does not speak of free software politics, it speaks
of software as such. But you never mentioned Dr. Richard Stallman or
ideals of free software on your personal website:
http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludo-3.html
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Your speeches are technical not ideological.

And who are you then to say that Richard Stallman does not qualify as
GNU project leader? You are hacker, programmer, but ideologically,
your only stance is in feminism, even that is in covert manner.

> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.

That you don't like people's opinion is already clear. But one thing
you cannot do nothing about is the snow ball that is going on those
political issues that you introduced in Guix, the distribution that
received over US $100,000 from FSF and third parties.

> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.
> :-(

"Guix people" are not all people, many disagree with you and they told
you on IRC chat, and on many web pages. And you know it.

Please take your political shit out of Guix pages. Or go out of GNU as
being political enough to bring separation in community

Re: ‘censorship’

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-10-12 11:36]:
> David  wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 21:11:51 +0300 Dmitry
> > Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You replied privately, offlist.  Was it intentional?  If yes, why: I see 
> >> nothing secret there?
> >
> > Absolutely yes, and I did so as your mail to me was private.
> 
> I’m sure it was not.  :-)

Then maybe I forgot to press "g" in mutt.

> >> If no, may I resent it back to the list?
> >
> > If someone sends me a private mail I follow suit but I've nothing whatever 
> > to hide on this topic.
> 
> I am interpreting this as ‘yes’.

My opinion related to GNU Project is public.

In my opinion, what happened is very same thing that Dr. Richard
Stallman already tried to say to somebody else:

Look here:
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

"The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault"
is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation:
taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as
Y, which is much worse than X."

What happened is this:

Dr. Richard Stallman had some opinion not relevant to GNU Project free
operating system, and not relevant to FSF, and not relevant to free
software movement.

Somebody (probably on medium.com) has facilitated accusation inflation
by taking claims that RMS did X and have been leading people to think
of it as Y which is much worse than X.

Media has picked it up.

Few of purely technical and not free software movement ideological
members such as Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo have further
facilitated accusation inflation by taking claims that RMS did X and
are now loading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than
X.

In my opinion those people who signed the defamatory and libelous
generalizations here
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
shall basically either remove their feminist politics that they are
trying to introduce to GNU Project and Guix operating system, or they
shall be removed from GNU Project.

Why I say so?

It impacts freedom zero "The freedom to run the program as you wish"
in the sense that indirectly calls for users to either agree to this
or that other viewpoint but free software viewpoint.

We have free software community build around GNU for reason that GNU
Project was always politically independent.

Dr. Richard Stallman installed "The freedom to run the program as you
wish" with the full knowledge that such software can be run by anyone
for whatever purposes, which also implies: for purposes of genetical
engineering of babies, for purposes of wars, making wars and
preventing wars, for purposes of sex or elimination of sex, for
purposes of slander, defamation, or social betterment projects, free
software may be used as you wish, for purposes of helping people and
purposes of killing people.

Thus the GNU Project and GNU website was always apolitical in any
sense.

We got now few people like Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo, and few
others, be it 25 I do not know, who think that other social agenda,
beyond free software is more important for GNU project but free
software being apolitical and independent of those views.

That is what really happened.

It requires some clarity to be issued or enforced by GNU project, as
simple as that. The matter can be cleaned.

I don't care what people think of RMS beyond the GNU.ORG website, but
I do care if GNU.ORG and GNU Projects become platform for their
whatever political views others but free software politics.

Stallman keeps his blog on www.stallman.org that is why it is personal
blog and not GNU.ORG or FSF.ORG neither any of their subdomains.

Ludovic Courtès is afraid to publish his opinion on his personal
pages, because that would impact him so much, that is why he asked for
"collective" support. He would otherwise lose ground for whatever he
was doing in Guix, Guile and so on, everything comes back to him. Same
for Andy Wingo who knows nothing but to whine about Stallman without
mentioning even one fact.

People are speaking out in defense of GNU Project and defense of
Richard Stallman:

My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

MIT scientist Richard Stallman taken down by vicious media smears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU

There are thousands comments supporting GNU and also being afraid of
GNU project future without RMS.

Few "GNU maintainers" such as Ludovic Courtès and his Andy Wingo
friend, who are friends in France, country known for historical
censorship[1], are forming a Thoughtpolice Squad[2] for
thoughtcrime[3] of RMS.

GNU project and any of GNU project pages, shall not push forward ANY
KIND OF POLITICS other but free software. GNU Project was always
apolitical and will remain so, and if it does not, I will take over
all writings and policies of RMS and continue with it being
independent of any politics other but free software.

Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo an

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Kete via Discussions about the development of the GNU system 
 [2019-10-12 03:28]:
> On 10/11/2019 04:43 PM, Alexander Vdolainen wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 10/11/19 11:16 PM, Kete via Discussions about the development of the
> > GNU system wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2019 05:02 PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> > ... skipped ...
> >>> Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought 
> >>> police punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought 
> >>> crime. See the book 1984
> >>>
> >> I think there's more to it than thoughts. I think RMS said something
> >> offensive and has made MIT a toxic environment for women for many years.
> >>
> > Where did you get this bullshit ?
> >
> https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794

There are already numerous refutals and analyzes on that.

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Try to watch YouTube videos by using hypervideo or youtube
downloaders.

That is biased articles and even if all that is true, GNU project
shall be socially and politically independent of all of the opinions
of their leader or developers.

Because if we would join the GNU project for reason of what their
individual members are thinking, then it is not GNU project any more.

That we agree on GNU as free operating system, that is what we share
in common and any other opinion outside of GNU as Free Operating
System shall be discussed outside of the GNU websites.

I don't mind if such opinions are discussed on mailing lists supported
by GNU, as such allow two-way communication and responses.

What I am protesting is that rumor mongering is ruining the Guix
project of being politically independent, they are taking their side
to feminists politics, or call it how you want, I don't even know,
but that they are taking their side to certain political movements
others than free software movement, is what is damaging the GNU as
politically independent (other politics but free software).

RMS is not require to remain politically independent but he does not
share his political viewpoints on GNU project, not others but free
software movement. That is why he has non-GNU www.stallman.org
website.

Same shall be done by everybody who is supporting GNU project but has
political stances on other politics but free software, they shall
publish such opinions on their websites not related to GNU projects.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell  [2019-10-10 22:23]:
> On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +0000, Jean Louis wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
> > > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
> > > is the appropriate mailing list.
> > 
> > I don't mind.
> 
> Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
> already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
> But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
> to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
> wars.

Dear Svante,

I do not "require" anyone to step down as I cannot do that.

I am calling those who have integrity to resign from GNU project, that
is different as it is not a requirement.

They are disgracefully abusing Dr. Richard Stallman, Guix operating
system, GNU project and FSF. Funded by the FSF and third parties
through the FSF with way more than US $100,000, it is disgrace that
their defamatory and libelous statement is published on GNU project
websites, as Guix website is GNU project's website.

They expressed to want to build a different free software project, I
am total supporter of that, but if one does not want to support GNU
project, then I suggest they call it different, software can be
forked, names can be changed, and need not be changed at all. 

It is very very funny, that it started with RMS's statement, as
described here: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ where
Dr. Richard Stallman wrote, and I am cutting out the context:

"The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault"
is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation:
taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as
Y, which is much worse than X."

But Ludovic Courtès and the sucession company of his supporters, even
being hackers, cannot understand it at all and continue facilitating
accusation inflation by taking claims that RMS did X and leading
people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X.

The Thoughtpolice[1] Squad of Ludovic Courtès is accusing Dr. Richard
Stallman of thoughtcrime[2] in a manner that is not even appropriate
for criminal offenders. And Richard Stallmen is not a criminal.

I am saddened to see that European born person such as Ludovic Courtès
does not uphold European values such as "nobody is guilty unless
proven" and that for reasons of abort() joke he has decided to defame
and slander on RMS on Guix web pages.

His own website http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ does not speak of
anything related to Dr. Richard Stallman. Like his activity does not
matter alone. I have not seen even mentioning of "free software". I
can just see his own ego and PhD thesis on software and
technicalities, and nothing ideological that I have expected to
see. This speaks of his lack of awareness of importance of free
software and full awareness of technicalities. His ability lies in
hacking, not in leading a GNU project. Without seeing what RMS
continually does for free software, how can he speak to take RMS down
from GNU leadership... it is even not consistent and totally
contradictory with the fact that Guix is supported by RMS, and FSF,
and that huge donation have been sent to Guix by the FSF and third
parties.

The Ludovic Courtès and the succession company have been asked to
provide facts that will justify their statemetn, and they have
none.

They have not allowed comments on their pages, and are just practising
censorship.

It is my opinion that their statements are truly a hostile takeover of
GNU organization and not for reasons of free software and further
development of the GNU project, but for reasons of Ludovic Courtès and
the succession company's desire for authority, powers and funds from
foundations.

Jean

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

[2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] ---> RMS : ?? if you are going to use acronyms unknown to many in the audience, footnote them ! + FUD

[Jean Louis]

* Mancini  [2019-10-11 17:31]:
> --->  "RMS" :  ??   if you are going to use acronyms unknown to
> many in the audience, footnote them !   +  "FUD"

You are right, yes, all text shall be clear.

For FUD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (often shortened to FUD) is a
disinformation strategy used in sales, marketing, public relations,
politics, cults, and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategy to
influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false
information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear.

Jean

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

On October 10, 2019 8:29:06 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> How are you?
>
>Ehm...  Fine.  What is the occasion to ask?

We are then from different cultures simply. At my side it is always used 
similarly as hand shaking.

>> I [] see absolutely no problem there.
>
>I’m afraid, Dr. Stallman would see.

My protest is not to align all my thoughts with Dr. Stallman, my protest is 
that defamation and harassment of RMS is taking place on Guix.GNU.org website.

It is the code of good conduct of Guix itself where they promised harass-free 
space with respect to other people's opinions. See: 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT

Writing policies while abusing them themselves is hypocrisy and this time it is 
bad enough that caused international online protests.

>> What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers
>but FUD.
>
>To get rid of him, of course.  Why to ask for obvious answer?

Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought police 
punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought crime. See the 
book 1984

>Many of your letters contain a footer with a call for lead developers
>of Guix, Guile and GnuPG to leave GNU. 

Exactly. That is my opinion. If myself cannot agree with my own community's 
published  coffee of conduct and the founder and if I am to abuse the platform 
given to me by founder and his work to abuse his image and defame him, then I 
would never do that, I would step down.

Reason that they don't have guts is all the comfort they got from FSF and GNU 
which is, was and is being caused by RMS.

Comfort like this 
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2018/gnu-guix-receives-donation-from-the-handshake-project/
 is hard to resist to get their things straight.

>> They have no respect for RMS.
>
>I hope, that you have, though.  And thus will stop to tear down the
>project he founded.

I have never protested against the GNU project as in itself it cannot cause 
actions. My protest is not against Ludovic Courtès's opinion neither their free 
speech, despite all of their efforts to silence every protestors' voice. See 
their logs for evidences of the plot.

My protest is against defamation of founder of the GNU project and on the GNU 
project's domain!

If Ludovic Courtès would publish it on his website I could probably comment on 
his own website. But he did not. By the way I did not find one mention of Dr. 
Stallman on his pages. Think about that and proper crediting.

Ludovic Courtès published it on Guix website hosted on GNU domain. I am 
objecting to that. And I am not alone, there are already hundreds supporting 
comments from all over the world, podcast and defenses, I am not alone thinker 
and please don't turn my words to something what I have not stated. Same 
strategy was used to defame Stallman. And same was used by Ludovic Courtès on 
their disrespectful statement.

Jean 

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Problem is that such statements shall be valid all including for those who 
created defamatory statements on Guix.GNU.org

Guix shall be hartass-free, but it is not, it is outrageous!

Jean

https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

On October 10, 2019 8:23:11 PM UTC, Svante Signell  
wrote:
>On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +0000, Jean Louis wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
>> > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
>> > is the appropriate mailing list.
>> 
>> I don't mind.
>
>Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
>already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
>But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
>to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
>wars.
>
>Thanks!

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

How are you?

On October 10, 2019 12:39:00 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?

Me for sure not intentionally and Guix managers are anyway conducting 
censorship... So no big deal.

You can resend what you wish. I am not forbidding two-way free speech.

>>>Wow!  Ease off a bit!

No need. I am not feeling fear when I state something. So they did not ease 
with thru FUD and defamation on Guix pages on GNU.org domain, so why MD or 
others should be silenced? No need.

>>>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>>>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage
>to
>>>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave. 

I don't see absolutely no problem there. And they also not. Their strategy is 
clear that they want their own community where thought police is to punish 
thought crime. So I let them be. 

Their behavior does not fit into GNU kind communication guidelines.

And free software can be freely used? So what is the loss? Their only loss is 
for them to lose other 10 dollars donation, that is possible reason for 
their hostile take over attempt.


>>>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>>>ended in Guix out of GNU.  

I am last person to convince on that as I am aware of their FUD and harm they 
do to Guix, GNU and RMS. Convince others.

>What the point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package
>nowadays? 

What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers but FUD.

>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are
>also urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.

No, not at all. I am asking people to behave according to GNU kind 
communication guidelines. And if they don't like it to step down and make their 
own platform for their FUD. But using GNU.org domain to defame and harass RMS 
is disaster for future.

>Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU
>and RMS heritage not to follow you strong advice.

They have no respect for RMS. 

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

It is not harmful if Guix remains free software, how it can be?

It is only harmful for Guix.

It was not my decision, it is theirs.


On October 10, 2019 11:39:42 AM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
>> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
>people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
>them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
>statement. They are behaving against established implicit and explicit
>GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy
>against them. They are danger to GNU project.
>>
>> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
>GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>>
>> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
>
>Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
>believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
>do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
>leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
>sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

>Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
>don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
>appropriate mailing list.

I don't mind.

Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix pages. 
I have told my concerns to them privately and on chat before sending it to 
mailing list. Would they provide facts, I would refrain.

Obviously the thought police is afraid and must silence defenders of RMS and 
his works.

So why is it problem to address the same on the Guix making list?

Is it maybe double standard?

Jean Louis
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

I have no hate against you and never had. Observe the log. You stated with 
defamation and FUD, not me.

Your censorship policy is already well known. So block, I don't mind.

You are not answering with facts but bringing more and more fear, uncertainty, 
and doubts into your own space and destroying GNU project, exactly what you 
said in the statement. Media has picked you up and perverted your statements 
due you too man generalizations and lack of facts and specifics. 

My pagd is not against your free speech but your disrespect and defamation on 
GNU.org domain. I would not care that much if you would have been doing it 
outside if GNU.org website on your private page. 

Guix got a donation of 100,000 dollars from FSF and that is RMS and RMS 
supporters creation. That you use the same GNU project which finances and 
supports Guix to defame and slander RMS without facts is lack of integrity, and 
it was not me who started it

Next time think before you do. So whinning will not bring you anywher but 
having balls. What you did to RMS is something you are experiencing right now. 
I am sorry for you, but you asked for it. 

Numerous people have published their pages yoo, I have not asked them anything, 
so please you arr getting what you asked for. You started with FUD, face what 
is happening.

 I have no intention to disturb Guix mailing list. I would support Guix even if 
it left in its own space of creation of free software and humanitarian rights 
in that subject. That is what I would do while having such string emotional 
impressions like statement signers got about RMS. 

And that what you did and how you harmed RMS by using his support is unspoken. 

I am protesting for space that you used for your personal grievances, obviously 
something you allow only to you and few companions who are defaming RMS without 
facts.

You don't allow me to use Guix resources to ask you for facts, right? But you 
like using Guix blog for defamation of RMS? Mamma mia.

You never answered my private email and chat to you, right? Would you, I would 
not ask you in public. Just have balls, as RMS has got the balls, endure it and 
be happy.

Wish you good night,
Jean Louis

On October 10, 2019 2:29:08 PM UTC, "Ludovic Courtès"  wrote:
>Hi Jean-Louis,
>
>Jean Louis  skribis:
>
>> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep
>disrupting
>>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> I cannot expect anything else from you.
>
>You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
>collect hatred messages against me.
>
>I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
>propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
>don’t stop by yourself.
>
>Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
>
>My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this. 
>:-(
>
>Thanks,
>Ludo’.

Re: Matt, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-09 17:41]:
> Jean Luis,
> Seems they don't want to reply, probably because they don't have argument.
> Also, the project signs without as anyone to do it, they just did it.
> There is not a vote to say 'The project is agree with this issue'.
> 
> At least everyone now they don't want to discuss this.
> Don't waste your energy on them ;)

Thank you, that is right.

No, I am not wasting any energy, I just wish them to move out and form
their stuff elsewhere out of GNU.

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* František Kučera  [2019-10-07 17:14]:
> > Hello Guix!
> > 
> > We, a group of GNU maintainers sharing a vision for a stronger GNU
> > Project, are publishing this statement today:
> > 
> >https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
> > 
> > We are somewhat abusing the Guix blog here, for lack of a better place,
> > but OTOH the future of GNU is obviously relevant to Guix.  (Ricardo and
> > I started this initiative before Tobias, Maxim, and Marius were
> > on-board.)
> > 
> > This mailing list is maybe not the best place to discuss this in detail
> > but your local GNU maintainers will surely be happy to answer any
> > questions you may have.  :-)
> 
> Hello,
> 
> you speak about „behavior“ in that blog post. But what is more important is
> whether there are any essential, factual differences. What would you do
> differently? What is your program, your goals? Could you declare it clearly
> and honestly? Could you guarantee, that you will be faithful to it for
> decades?

They have no facts. I have and still I am asking them each
individually to provide facts, they have none.

One fact that Ludovic Courtès told me is the abort() joke, so he
thinks that is so important to defame and harass RMS. Ludovic
expressed his concerns to one other person about the Emacs Virgin joke
and something else.

Facts are here:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/

Ludovic Courtès is punishing RMS for the thoughtcrime. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Let us face the fact that it is a hostile attempt of take over of the
GNU project.

They asked in the statement that they want to have GNU project to
which everybody can trust.

While that is absolutely impossible for any type of organization, I
cannot trust those people.

GNU project belongs to RMS. You are in his house.

Thus, me, who is nobody in GNU but free software user, I am asking
those people who are pretending to represent all of the GNU project
and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down and resign, do
your software hacking somewhere else, you do not deserve funding that
RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas
Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez
Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor, Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno,
Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen, John Wiegley, Tom
Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian Jackson, Tobias
Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John W. Eaton, RESIGN
and step down from GNU projects, disassociate yourself, find another
house for your excessive and uncrontollable fear of free speech.

Make your "GNG" or "GNU is NOT GNU" system elsewhere. Nobody is
forbidding you.

But please don't by hypocrite!

You are using money of the FSF to destroy GNU project on GNU project
websites! You are using money of the FSF and free software supporters
who are also supporters in the first place of the RMS who is fighting
for human rights to defame and slander RMS.

Please step down, resign, remove yourself from GNU projects, that the
disgrace finds its ends. You don't deserve GNU, make your own project
elsewhere. 

> Recently I wrote an article about the future of the FSF:
> . Please read it and say whether you agree
> with particular items or not.

Your article is totally fine and good and FSF has already those
principles and policies in mind in general all what you have
written. What I cannot yet see is the enforcement of policies.

Jean


Footnotes:
[1]  https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

Facts are here:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/

Re: Matt, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-09 23:42]:
> Jean Luis,

> Seems they don't want to reply, probably because they don't have
> argument.  Also, the project signs without as anyone to do it, they
> just did it.  There is not a vote to say 'The project is agree with
> this issue'.
> 
> At least everyone now they don't want to discuss this.
> Don't waste your energy on them ;)

Yes, I agree with you.

However, those generalized statements are now damaging the image of
Guix then GNU project, and it is giving impression that "all GNU
maintainers" are doing it.

Best thing for those 24 signers to do is to resign from GNU project,
as if they don't like RMS for abort() joke like Ludovic Courtès told
me it was a reason for him to defame RMS, or if they don't like some
of others of his opinions, and that shall be reason for them, then I
propose to Ludovic Courtès to resign and remove the Guix and his
project from the GNU project, including others.

FSF can fork the projects, and has license over majority of GNU
projects. So if any GNU maintainer does not like somebody's face, or
whatever opinions to which everybody is entitled including the RMS,
then they better not be in the GNU Project.

That is like coming to somebody's house and expelling the owner out of
the house because I don't like their wallpapers.

I am asking all those people who have signed the discgraceful
statement to resign from GNU, and find other platform for political
separations and hatred.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.

I cannot expect anything else from you.

Jean

Re: Matt, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS - that statement caused this discussion

[Jean Louis]

* František Kučera  [2019-10-09 16:39]:
> Dne 09. 10. 19 v 19:06 P napsal(a):
> > Stop spamming the list. Thanks.
> > 
> If you did not want to start this discussion, you should not have posted
> that statement on the official Guix blog. You could expect what it would do.
> 
> Franta

Exactly, that is why I am disturbed, that they are destroying the
community as they are using kind RMS to provide them with the project,
with GNU.ORG and GUIX.GNU.ORG subdomain, mailing lists, hosting space,
people who are supporting FSF they are supporting for reason they are
supporting RMS's ideals, goals and purposes for human rights in free
software.

And they are abusing larger part of that community, donators, using
their funds for criminal acts.

But there is a solution, to let them build their own split community
elsewhere and make it right for the world.

They wish to say that none of those 24 will ever have any opinions
that public will not consider socially not acceptable, they must be 24
new Jesuses, free of sin.

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Dimakakos Dimos  [2019-10-08 12:38]:
> On the subject, I think that the discussion of rms's position in GNU is
> valid but that at the same time such an announcment should be made after
> a careful consideration and research.

There was no public discussion. I am not against their opinion, and
any discussion, I don't mind for hackers, guix, script kiddies, or
wannabes to discuss anything, I don't mind for millions of rumor
mongers in this world.

What I do mind is that they are using funds of the FSF to defame and
harass RMS. The one who gave them GUIX.GNU.ORG website and domain, web
space, and one who has created GNU Project.

> Do we have evidence that rms has caused harm to GNU's projects?

There is no evidence.

He is entitled to his opinion.

For any project in the world, Mother Theresa even, there will be
thoughtless people who are complaining for something.

You can pour cash onto people, you will find people
complaining. Always. It is social phenomena.

> Even in the aspect of diversity and community building, do we have
> evidence that rms is block or is it that we just play along with a
> media campaign, that was in a fact a full on personality attack on
> rms, by going as far as misquoting him.

Facts (even if you know them):
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

> I would like to hear you expand on ways that the empowerment of all
> computer users was undermined by rms. I write all these in good
> faith. On one hand I can accept that if there is concrete evidence,
> on the other hand I see in the web media, people, associated with
> companies that would like the software freedom fronts to collapse,
> bash and drive out a person that offered his life to create and
> support the movement.

I have tried asking Ludovick Courtès to tell me facts. I was genuinely
interested, he has no facts. He is basing that opinion on rumour,
there is no fact that RMS ever hurt "core values of GNU project over
years" that is nonsense.

Everybody is entitled to opinion and so is RMS.

When that Media article came out, instead to show some loyalty and
research the statements, which one could easily find not to be true,
they started bashing on RMS.

> In my opinion the timing is a bit off. By trying to solve whatever issue
> the community has with rms at this particular point,

Let us not generalize, "community" is generalization. Ludovick Courtès
did not allow comments on his page, but there are comments on that on
various other pages, there are hundreds contrary comments already, and
just 2-3 people are joining their "statement" in the sense. Obviously
that is "small group within larger group of GNU maintainers".

It is not community that has a problem. It is them, right now 24, and
I would like to see their integrity to fork the GNU project elsewhere
and call it their own name, as GNU is a trademark.

> is like validating the misinformation that has spread this last
> month about his name. It's like the whole character assasination
> that happens on web is valid so we need to cancel rms. I think this
> is totally unfair. At the same time it's also important to move our
> community forward in ways that include every person and also enable
> people of all kinds of background to take part in GNU and this way
> realize the software freedom ideals.

It is more than unfair, it also shows that RMS has not enacted enough
enforcing of policies. He is probably waiting for people to speak out,
because he is wy to kind for this mob.

>  2. How does rms with his afformentioned role undermine diversity
>  and inclusivity of people working in GNU projects?

I hope to see the facts, but now I know they have none.

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Re: Matt, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Jean Louis]

* František Kučera  [2019-10-09 18:11]:
> Dne 09. 10. 19 v 23:41 Wilson Bustos napsal(a):
> > Seems they don't want to reply, probably because they don't have argument.
> > Also, the project signs without as anyone to do it, they just did it.
> > There is not a vote to say 'The project is agree with this issue'.
> > 
> > At least everyone now they don't want to discuss this.
> > Don't waste your energy on them ;)
> 
> We saw the same behavior on the FSF Member Forum - those people who started
> the which hunt was then unable or unwilling to discuss and bring arguments.
> They rather misused the flag feature in Discourse software as a „dislike
> button“ to hide comments, they do not liked (if three users flag a post, it
> became automatically hidden).
> 
> Franta

Well, policies on communication can be established better, if you have
any improvement suggestion, why not write to FSF and those who
maintain that forum?

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Andy Wingo  [2019-10-09 11:49]:
> For what it is worth, I have some personal answers to some of these
> questions here:
> 
>   https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu

I am appreciating that you are publishing your opinions beyond the
GUIX.GNU.ORG and GNU.ORG domains. That is how it shall be done.

> For many years now, I have not considered Richard Stallman (RMS) to
> be the head of the GNU project. Yes, he created GNU, speaking it
> into existence via prophetic narrative and via code; yes, he
> inspired many people, myself included, to make the vision of a GNU
> system into a reality; and yes, he should be recognized for these
> things. But accomplishing difficult and important tasks for GNU in
> the past does not grant RMS perpetual sovereignty over GNU in the
> future.

All of his works in past do grant him all of the rights to continue
with it as he wish. And for the case that he is not any more around,
he has formed the FSF. Everything clear.

> More on the motivations for the non serviam in a minute. But first,
> a meta-point: the GNU project does not exist, at least not in the
> sense that many people think it does. It is not a legal entity. It
> is not a charity. You cannot give money to the GNU project. Besides
> the manifesto, GNU has no by-laws or constitution or founding
> document.

It does exist, and it need not exist in your own legal framework, and
there is something known as freedom of associations, so GNU project
never had to exist as registered entity. FSF came somewhat later.

That does not invalidate GNU project. I am not sure from which country
you are, but if you are saying that "project" or "organization" need
to be legally registered then maybe you come from some limited or
under developed country with fascist restrictions.

Even if some project is not registered, one can give money to it, I
don't know which jurisdiction you are speaking about. If one wish to
remain tax-free on donations, one can register a non-profit in the
USA but simple registration does not make it tax-free, one has to
prove the tax-free status by doing application to the IRS.

But that anybody in the world can receive donations that is a fact,
and you cannot dispute it, you can tell it from your view point, but
man I guess you are lacking some legal information.

> One could describe GNU as a set of software packages that have been
> designated by RMS as forming part, in some way, of GNU. But this
> artifact-centered description does not capture movement: software
> does not, by itself, change the world; it lacks agency. It is the
> people that maintain, grow, adapt, and build the software that are
> the heart of the GNU project -- the maintainers of and contributors
> to the GNU packages. They are the GNU of whom I speak and of whom I
> form a part.

It is good if you express yourself as "GNU software supporters,
programmers", something like that. Don't use GNU ot say "people", it
is not quite adequate, try to express yourself as specifics as
possible to avoid generalization.

> Richard Stallman describes himself as the leader of the GNU project
> -- the "chief GNUisance", he calls it -- but this position only
> exists in any real sense by consent of the people that make GNU. So
> what is he doing with this role? Does he deserve it? Should we
> consent?

He is policy maker, chief planner. Without him, you would not have the
GPL, copyleft, free software freedoms, books and articles, speeches on
free software.

You maybe consider leader only if leader does what you think it is
right to do. That is not how leadership works.

> To me it has been clear for many years that to a first
> approximation, the answer is that RMS does nothing for GNU.

Then you are totally misinformed. If you think it is so, why not
simply resign?

> RMS does not write software. He does not design software, or
> systems. He does hold a role of accepting new projects into GNU;
> there, his primary criteria is not "does this make a better GNU
> system"; it is, rather, "does the new project meet the minimum
> requirements".

That is lie, nonsense. Everybody is free to decide when to write
software or to organize the community to write it. You lack basic
senses of observation. GNU, FSF, and majority of free software,
including Linux kernel are free because it was incentive and original
creation of Richard Stallman. Linus would never make it free, he said
so, and he did not publish it as free. Many software pieces became
free because of Richard Stallman.

If you cannot see his work, I would ask you to find other community to
spread misinformation.

> By itself, this seems to me to be a failure of leadership for a
> software project like GNU.

Absolutely not, but if you have serious disagreements, how about
organizing your own project and forwarding free software?

To cut the story short, none of your opinions are the fact that prove
"that Stallman’s behavior over the years has undermined a core value
of the GNU proj

Re: Ricardo, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-09 23:54]:
> I think even more important,

> When I read that statement I thought every Guix collaborator is in
> favor of that statement, or at least a major number of them.

And that is exactly what is not being spread on Internet.

I would like to ask those "GNU maintainers" who are pretending to
represent "all of GNU" to step down from the GNU project, and move
their activities out.

Software that is usable can be forked and continued without worries.

I recommend this reading to everybody who has logical sense and will
to research what has been said and why all that came:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/

> But I get surprise to not find any mail to ask to anyone about this,
> There is not a vote.

In my opinion, projects that are driven by intention, authority for
reasons of being right like RMS, such projects need no democracy
voting. A group will always vote out sooner or later the one who is in
authority with the hidden hopes to get their own positions.

Positions in GNU shall be given by their loyalty to GNU principles,
one of those principles was to be friendly in community and forward
free software.

How such biased and generalized defamation againt RMS can be
considered friendly? It is not, it is hatred and that is not the
community envisioned by GNU manifesto.

I am asking thus Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas
Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez
Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor, Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno,
Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen, John Wiegley, Tom
Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian Jackson, Tobias
Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg and John W. Eaton who
issued their disgraceful defamation and slander on RMS to step down,
resign from GNU project and when I say "GNU" I mean exclusively that
on GNU.ORG and sponsored by GNU.ORG and not the broader group of fans,
free software supporters or similar.

Person with the integrity would never do that damage what they have
done with their statement on:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

So please people, RESIGN, and get your opinions straight but OUTSIDE
of the GNU.ORG domain.

> Someone just think in that way and use the site to show the Guix
> community is against Stallman as a representation of GNU.  The fact
> in here is there is not public discussion about this.  And seems it
> will never gonna happen.

That is exactly what is now going on. Various websites are reflecting
their statement in the sense that all GNU maintainers are defaming and
slandering RMS, which is not true. In the sense that those few people
are representing "all of the GNU".

> Why? Maybe the person who do this is afraid of not being able to
> impose his point of view to the community.  I hope be wrong and I
> hope we can get an answer.

Exactly.


Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Ludovic Courtès  [2019-10-07 17:41]:
> Hi František, and welcome,
> 
> (I’m willing to answer questions like I wrote, but if we are to have a
> more in-depth conversation, I think we should not abuse guix-devel for
> that.)

Now is too late, you are the one who abused Guix, and you should step
down and resign from Guix. You are the one who is bringing hatred and
separation in community.

GNU project is RMS's project.

Step down, resign, make your own project.

Stop destroying GNU project with money that GNU project is providing
for the Guix infrastructure.

> František Kučera  skribis:
> 
> > you speak about „behavior“ in that blog post. But what is more
> > important is whether there are any essential, factual
> > differences. What would you do differently? What is your program, your
> > goals? Could you declare it clearly and honestly? Could you guarantee,
> > that you will be faithful to it for decades?
> >
> > Recently I wrote an article about the future of the FSF:
> > . Please read it and say whether you
> > agree with particular items or not.
> 
> Note that the FSF and GNU are two different things.  GNU is not a formal
> organization (like US 501(c) or similar), whereas the FSF is.  The FSF
> is primarily concerned with activism, whereas GNU is concerned with
> making those ideas practical.

I see you have some legal knowledge. You should better review the
legality of the criminal act of defamation that you committed.

Your statements are pure ignorance on what you have done to GNU
project, and you are trying to change the subject. 

> Not surprisingly, I agree with all the goals you propose for the FSF,
> except perhaps one: to not ‘mix our ideas with general politics’.  I
> think free software is a social movement that doesn’t exist in a vacuum,
> it’s politic in nature, and thus it’s part of ‘general politics’.

You please RESIGN from GNU project. Move your stuff elsewhere.

Jean


I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:

> I'm nobody (yep, I'm using GNU Guile, GNU Emacs and GUIX and a lot
> of other GNU projects (make, gcc, binutils etc ...), but I'm not a
> great contributor yet). However those events are going to look like
> a decision point to move on from GNU community sw.

I feel disgusted by Ludovic Courtès not for reasons of him having an
opinion, but for reason that he is using GNU platform to bring hatred
into GNU community. Would he be using facts, I would not be that much
upsate. Would he answer on my questions to provide me facts, I would
not be that upset.

He did answered to me, he said the fact is that RMS used abort() joke.

So one joke for which he has no sense of humor is just enough to say
how RMS has undermined core values of GNU project "over years".

Ludovic Courtès is hypocrat that is using GNU platform to destroy both
Guix and GNU project. He is probably unaware of that, as good behavior
is something one gets from parents. He does not know what is he
doing. That is why the FSF need to have policy makers and policy
enforcers to remove such hatred from GNU Project website (Guix).

> > to oppose free software, and there are numerous facts of his good
> > deeds for free software, for haven's sake he is the founder of the
> > GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation, such wishy-washy
> > statements have no place on GNU.ORG domain.

> Agreed. And again it all looks like a personal war.

I would be immature to accuse RMS, but anybody, without verifying the
facts and without trying to speak to that person first. Isn't that
most humane and friendly?

Most of all, I would not accuse anybody of thoughtcrime, for their
free speech and opinions. If somebody has bad sense of humor, I will
simply not laugh. Not so for Ludovic Courtès, he finds simple joke
good reason enough to bash on RMS who provided him webspace, domain,
platform, and community, and whole organization and funding through
the FSF. Unbelievable.

And he has not a slightest sense of integrity to recognize what harm
is he doing to RMS and GNU and Guix and the FSF and the community.

There are if not thousands of comments on Ludovic Courtès disgraceful
statement on Internet, but none of them have been re-published or
allowed on Guix pages. They are just biased. They openly said in the
Guix IRC log that they will not allow any comments on their
statements.

What RMS shall do, in my opinion, and I am not RMS, he shall enforce
policies and remove such from Guix projects, or let the Guix project
be hosted elsewhere outside of GNU.ORG domain and website. But he is I
guess wy to kind for something like that to happen, and from FSF I
never found public information that they are enforcing some good
behavior guideliness.

That is harassment, can harassment of RMS stop?

Can generalizations stop?

Can those rumors stop? Why they need to be spread on GNU.ORG website?

 > Thus I am proposing to FSF, and any reader of this message to kindly
> > ask those people to either provide facts, or to retract their
> > statements from Guix and GNU pages.
> How can I help with that ?

Write to those people who signed the disgraceful statement and tell
them your opinion. Ask them for facts. Ask them is one or few jokes
and opinions of RMS really worth to defame, slander and ruin his well
being and position in the community?

In fact, would I be RMS, I would replace those projects, fork them,
and let those rumor mongers go out of the GNU project.

GNU.ORG domain belongs to RMS, directly or indirectly.

Imagine my father gives my bed, room, food, education and money for
living, and then I go spiting in the face of my father.

I am saying no to that behavior.

But even if it would not be my father, I have respect to people who
are first older then me, and I wait with my judgments, and second, I
have great respect of people who have done social betterment actions,
like RMS did for this planet.

> > Those undersigners on the defamatory statement as published by
> > Ludovic Courtès are not representing the community neither they
> > have such authorizations. Statement is written by some amateur,
> > that is not public relation, that is hatred. That is harassment
> > and defamation.
> > 
> > Additionally it is criminal act in France.
> It's time to use a court ...

As I said, knowing RMS, he is waay too kind, he would probably never
do something like that. But I wonder how Ludovic Courtès allows
himself to commit criminal acts in France. Even I would never charge
him, for reasong that I would not like to vomit when I see him face to
face.

> I suppose people acts like the pointed 'undersigners' should go away
> and enjoy political shit they are proposing somewhere in twitter or

Exactly, they shall resign from GNU project.

That is hostile takeover attempt.

GNU.ORG belongs to RMS, I just wish he would be using more of his
authority and take over GNU project to RMS back and assign it only to
trusted people.

Those signers are not 

Re: guix installed Emacs

[Jean Louis]

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 02:52:10PM +0300, Alex Kost wrote:
> Another thing: I noticed that Guix's Emacs doesn't display some buttons
> on the tool bar.  This should probably (I'm not sure) be fixed by
> installing some icon theme in your profile, for example
> 'adwaita-icon-theme'.
> 
> -- 
> Alex


I guess that is due to wrong environment when running emacs.

Check the $XDG_DATA_DIRS to conform to Guix recommended.

Jean

Re: guix installed Emacs

[Jean Louis]

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:48:57AM +0200, Catonano wrote:
> I installed Emacs with guix.
> 
> But the experience provided by the guix provided Emacs is not on par with
> the one provided by the Fedora host rpovided Emacs

I guess that is because you miss some fonts and system settings that you
previously had with the other distribution.

Try to match the fonts, and install more fonts from Guix packages.

Jean Louis

Re: bug#22970: guix edit mutt -- not working

[Jean Louis]

Hello Alex,

I have followed your recommendation, and mutt is working modified.
However, now I get useless error messages. And I can imagine, if I have
modified 10 packages, that I would get 10x that much of error messages.

warning: collision encountered:
/gnu/store/xxzgai9khdfhk70p06vs6akrarzph9r2-my-mutt-1.5.24/share/man/man1/mutt.1.gz
/gnu/store/vh7ghk1xlrn4crshqrdygp5573aipk44-mutt-1.5.24/share/man/man1/mutt.1.gz
 

warning: arbitrarily choosing
/gnu/store/xxzgai9khdfhk70p06vs6akrarzph9r2-my-mutt-1.5.24/share/man/man5/muttrc.5.gz

warning: collision encountered:
/gnu/store/xxzgai9khdfhk70p06vs6akrarzph9r2-my-mutt-1.5.24/bin/mutt
/gnu/store/vh7ghk1xlrn4crshqrdygp5573aipk44-mutt-1.5.24/bin/mutt 

warning: arbitrarily choosing
/gnu/store/xxzgai9khdfhk70p06vs6akrarzph9r2-my-mutt-1.5.24/bin/mutt

warning: collision encountered:
/gnu/store/xxzgai9khdfhk70p06vs6akrarzph9r2-my-mutt-1.5.24/bin/flea
/gnu/store/vh7ghk1xlrn4crshqrdygp5573aipk44-mutt-1.5.24/bin/flea 

Let me stop with copy and paste, because there are many more lines like
that.

Maybe it is design of guix package manager, maybe it is my fault. 

I understood that I can change definitions for guix packages, and such
would be installed. There shall be no warnings like this.

I do intend to make about 5-10 packages for system I use, and I worry
about future warning messages, it will be like 3-4 screens, making guix
package manager not user-friendly. I would not see real errors.

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 01:48:39PM +0300, Alex Kost wrote:
> Jean Louis (2016-03-10 22:34 +0300) wrote:
> 
> > Hello Andreas,
> >
> > I have now 2 files in gnu/guix/packages/*.scm, for mutt and postgresql:
> > and now I get each time on running guix, following:
> >
> > guix package: warning: failed to load '(databases)':
> > ERROR: no code for module (databases)
> > guix package: warning: failed to load '(mutt)':
> > ERROR: no code for module (mutt)
> >
> > because 2 files are: databases.scm and mutt.scm
> >
> > I have already installed mutt, with changes, and it works. On the end of
> > file there is word "mutt". Similar for PostgreSQL, only it did not yet
> > compile.
> >
> > Now I get a feeling, if I have 20 files to change or adapt to my system,
> > I will get 20 warnings by each run of guix package manager.
> >
> > Somehow it does not feel right.
> >
> > It would be more logical to have GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH plus one separate
> > file where some modified or user related packages are listed, instead of
> > having the package name on the end of *.scm file.
> 
> I agree, using GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH is such a nice way to keep your own
> packages.  I don't understand why Andreas recommended to use "guix
> package -f".  I think it is suitable to build some development
> "guix.scm" file (not related, but see ¹).  But for user packages, I
> think keeping them in GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH directories is a much better
> solution.
> 
> I also don't recommend to use the same /gnu/packages/*.scm structure, as
> there may be problems with this.  For example, you copied
> /gnu/packages/databases.scm to your GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH dir and modified
> some package in it.  Then you have to follow the changes in this file
> made in Guix, and update your local databases.scm accordingly all the
> time.
> 
> So if you want to keep all your packages in a single file, you can make
> "/my-guix-packages.scm", add  to GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH,
> and that's it!  This "my-guix-packages.scm" file will look like this:
> 

> (define-module (my-guix-packages)
>   #:use-module (guix packages)
>   #:use-module (guix download)
>   #:use-module (guix utils)
>   #:use-module (gnu packages mail))
> 
> (define-public my-mutt
>   (package
> (inherit mutt)
> (name "my-mutt")
> (arguments
>  (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments mutt)
>((#:configure-flags cf)
> `(cons "--enable-hcache" ,cf
> (synopsis (string-append (package-synopsis mutt)
>  " (configured with --enable-hcache)"

> 
> And all guix commands will find packages in this file, for example you
> can do: "guix package -i my-mutt".  Try it!

Re: bug#22970: guix edit mutt -- not working

[Jean Louis]

Hello Alex,

Thank you much, it is working like this very good:

guix package -i my-mutt

by using this file: my-guix-packages.scm in ~/gnu/guix/packages:

 (define-module (my-guix-packages)
   #:use-module (guix packages)
   #:use-module (guix download)
   #:use-module (guix utils)
   #:use-module (gnu packages mail)
   #:use-module (gnu packages databases))

 (define-public my-mutt
   (package
 (inherit mutt)
 (name "my-mutt")
 (inputs (cons `("gdbm" ,gdbm) (package-inputs mutt)))
 (arguments
  (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments mutt)
((#:configure-flags cf)
 `(cons "--enable-hcache" ,cf
 (synopsis (string-append (package-synopsis mutt)
  " (configured with --enable-hcache)"



On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 11:13:06AM +0300, Alex Kost wrote:
> Jean Louis (2016-03-11 21:48 +0300) wrote:
> 
> > Hello Alex,
> >
> > I got your mutt file, for my-guix-packages, but now I see I
> > need to learn Guile commands, I will do this somewhat later
> > when I have working system. Please help me until then, as
> > your style to make a modified package is excellent for me.
> 
> It is not my style :-) Package inheriting is a great feature of Guix,
> it's just not documented (though "inherit" word can be met in the
> manual several times).
> 
> > I guess you forgot the dependency gdbm, where to put it?
> 
> Sorry about that, but actually I didn't forget about it because I didn't
> know it is needed (I've never used mutt, and I know nothing about it or
> gdbm).  Do you mean this dependency is needed because of --enable-hcache
> option?
> 
> If so, then it can be added by adding gdbm to the inputs of my-mutt
> package (see below).  Also (my-guix-packages) module need to use (gnu
> packages databases), because gdbm package comes from this module.
> 
> I hope the following comments clarify how my-mutt package is made:
> 
> >  (define-module (my-guix-packages)
> >#:use-module (guix packages)
> >#:use-module (guix download)
> >#:use-module (guix utils)
> 
> Don't forget to add this line here:
> 
>  #:use-module (gnu packages databases)
> 
> >#:use-module (gnu packages mail))
> >
> >  (define-public my-mutt
> >(package
> >  (inherit mutt)
> 
> Inheriting means: those package fields that are not specified, will be
> taken from mutt package.  For example, the package name is changed (to
> "my-mutt"), but the version is not, so it will be inherited.  This means
> when the version of mutt package will be updated, the version of my-mutt
> package will automatically be updated too.
> 
> >  (name "my-mutt")
> >  (arguments
> >   (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments mutt)
> > ((#:configure-flags cf)
> >  `(cons "--enable-hcache" ,cf
> 
> This means: take mutt's arguments and do some substitutions there.  In
> particular, we modify configure-flags by adding "--enable-hcache" to
> them.
> 
> To add gdbm dependency, add the following line to the package
> definition:
> 
>(inputs (cons `("gdbm" ,gdbm) (package-inputs mutt)))
> 
> >  (synopsis (string-append (package-synopsis mutt)
> >   " (configured with --enable-hcache)"
> 
> Modifying synopsis is not needed, it is just what you see in the output
> of "guix package --show=my-mutt" command.
> 
> -- 
> Alex

Re: bug#22970: guix edit mutt -- not working

[Jean Louis]

Hello Alex,

I got your mutt file, for my-guix-packages, but now I see I
need to learn Guile commands, I will do this somewhat later
when I have working system. Please help me until then, as
your style to make a modified package is excellent for me.

I guess you forgot the dependency gdbm, where to put it?


 (define-module (my-guix-packages)
   #:use-module (guix packages)
   #:use-module (guix download)
   #:use-module (guix utils)
   #:use-module (gnu packages mail))

 (define-public my-mutt
   (package
 (inherit mutt)
 (name "my-mutt")
 (arguments
  (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments mutt)
((#:configure-flags cf)
 `(cons "--enable-hcache" ,cf
 (synopsis (string-append (package-synopsis mutt)
  " (configured with --enable-hcache)"

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:21:09PM +0100, Jean Louis wrote:
> Hello Alex,
> 
> Thank you much. That looks like a solution that is valuable, and I would
> like to see that in future documentation.
> 
> The info documentation and guix package --help now provide the option to
> read the file and evaluate from file, and I guess that this solution you
> provided is better for future:
> 
> - people can learn Guile, scheme and programming
> - every user can modify the package.scm according to the needs
> 
> I will copy this to guix-devel
> 
> Louis
> 
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 01:48:39PM +0300, Alex Kost wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello Andreas,
> > >
> > > I have now 2 files in gnu/guix/packages/*.scm, for mutt and postgresql:
> > > and now I get each time on running guix, following:
> > >
> > > guix package: warning: failed to load '(databases)':
> > > ERROR: no code for module (databases)
> > > guix package: warning: failed to load '(mutt)':
> > > ERROR: no code for module (mutt)
> > >
> > > because 2 files are: databases.scm and mutt.scm
> > >
> > > I have already installed mutt, with changes, and it works. On the end of
> > > file there is word "mutt". Similar for PostgreSQL, only it did not yet
> > > compile.
> > >
> > > Now I get a feeling, if I have 20 files to change or adapt to my system,
> > > I will get 20 warnings by each run of guix package manager.
> > >
> > > Somehow it does not feel right.
> > >
> > > It would be more logical to have GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH plus one separate
> > > file where some modified or user related packages are listed, instead of
> > > having the package name on the end of *.scm file.
> > 
> > I agree, using GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH is such a nice way to keep your own
> > packages.  I don't understand why Andreas recommended to use "guix
> > package -f".  I think it is suitable to build some development
> > "guix.scm" file (not related, but see ¹).  But for user packages, I
> > think keeping them in GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH directories is a much better
> > solution.
> > 
> > I also don't recommend to use the same /gnu/packages/*.scm structure, as
> > there may be problems with this.  For example, you copied
> > /gnu/packages/databases.scm to your GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH dir and modified
> > some package in it.  Then you have to follow the changes in this file
> > made in Guix, and update your local databases.scm accordingly all the
> > time.
> > 
> > So if you want to keep all your packages in a single file, you can make
> > "/my-guix-packages.scm", add  to GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH,
> > and that's it!  This "my-guix-packages.scm" file will look like this:
> > 
> 
> > (define-module (my-guix-packages)
> >   #:use-module (guix packages)
> >   #:use-module (guix download)
> >   #:use-module (guix utils)
> >   #:use-module (gnu packages mail))
> > 
> > (define-public my-mutt
> >   (package
> > (inherit mutt)
> > (name "my-mutt")
> > (arguments
> >  (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments mutt)
> >((#:configure-flags cf)
> > `(cons "--enable-hcache" ,cf
> > (synopsis (string-append (package-synopsis mutt)
> >  " (configured with --enable-hcache)"
> 
> > 
> > And all guix commands will find packages in this file, for example you
> > can do: "guix package -i my-mutt".  Try it!
> > 
> > ¹ http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-03/msg00419.html
> > 
> > -- 
> > Alex
> 
> 

Re: bug#22970: guix edit mutt -- not working

[Jean Louis]

Hello Alex,

Thank you much. That looks like a solution that is valuable, and I would
like to see that in future documentation.

The info documentation and guix package --help now provide the option to
read the file and evaluate from file, and I guess that this solution you
provided is better for future:

- people can learn Guile, scheme and programming
- every user can modify the package.scm according to the needs

I will copy this to guix-devel

Louis

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 01:48:39PM +0300, Alex Kost wrote:
> 
> > Hello Andreas,
> >
> > I have now 2 files in gnu/guix/packages/*.scm, for mutt and postgresql:
> > and now I get each time on running guix, following:
> >
> > guix package: warning: failed to load '(databases)':
> > ERROR: no code for module (databases)
> > guix package: warning: failed to load '(mutt)':
> > ERROR: no code for module (mutt)
> >
> > because 2 files are: databases.scm and mutt.scm
> >
> > I have already installed mutt, with changes, and it works. On the end of
> > file there is word "mutt". Similar for PostgreSQL, only it did not yet
> > compile.
> >
> > Now I get a feeling, if I have 20 files to change or adapt to my system,
> > I will get 20 warnings by each run of guix package manager.
> >
> > Somehow it does not feel right.
> >
> > It would be more logical to have GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH plus one separate
> > file where some modified or user related packages are listed, instead of
> > having the package name on the end of *.scm file.
> 
> I agree, using GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH is such a nice way to keep your own
> packages.  I don't understand why Andreas recommended to use "guix
> package -f".  I think it is suitable to build some development
> "guix.scm" file (not related, but see ¹).  But for user packages, I
> think keeping them in GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH directories is a much better
> solution.
> 
> I also don't recommend to use the same /gnu/packages/*.scm structure, as
> there may be problems with this.  For example, you copied
> /gnu/packages/databases.scm to your GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH dir and modified
> some package in it.  Then you have to follow the changes in this file
> made in Guix, and update your local databases.scm accordingly all the
> time.
> 
> So if you want to keep all your packages in a single file, you can make
> "/my-guix-packages.scm", add  to GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH,
> and that's it!  This "my-guix-packages.scm" file will look like this:
> 

> (define-module (my-guix-packages)
>   #:use-module (guix packages)
>   #:use-module (guix download)
>   #:use-module (guix utils)
>   #:use-module (gnu packages mail))
> 
> (define-public my-mutt
>   (package
> (inherit mutt)
> (name "my-mutt")
> (arguments
>  (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments mutt)
>((#:configure-flags cf)
> `(cons "--enable-hcache" ,cf
> (synopsis (string-append (package-synopsis mutt)
>  " (configured with --enable-hcache)"

> 
> And all guix commands will find packages in this file, for example you
> can do: "guix package -i my-mutt".  Try it!
> 
> ¹ http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-03/msg00419.html
> 
> -- 
> Alex

Re: bug#22970: guix edit mutt -- not working

[Jean Louis]

Hello Andreas,

I have now 2 files in gnu/guix/packages/*.scm, for mutt and postgresql:
and now I get each time on running guix, following:

guix package: warning: failed to load '(databases)':
ERROR: no code for module (databases)
guix package: warning: failed to load '(mutt)':
ERROR: no code for module (mutt)

because 2 files are: databases.scm and mutt.scm

I have already installed mutt, with changes, and it works. On the end of
file there is word "mutt". Similar for PostgreSQL, only it did not yet
compile.

Now I get a feeling, if I have 20 files to change or adapt to my system,
I will get 20 warnings by each run of guix package manager.

Somehow it does not feel right.

It would be more logical to have GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH plus one separate
file where some modified or user related packages are listed, instead of
having the package name on the end of *.scm file.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 12:44:33AM +0100, Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 12:22:20AM +0100, Jean Louis wrote:
> > And I could not save the file in my home directory, and do:
> > guix package -i mutt -f mail.scm
> 
> As mentioned on IRC, modify the file mail.scm by adding a line
>mutt
> at the end. Then
>guix package -f mail.scm
> does "install the package that the code within FILE evaluates to" as
> explained by "guix package --help". mail.scm itself does not evaluate
> to anything, it just contains a number of variable definitions. By adding
> the line, it "returns" the value of the variable mutt, which is your
> package definition.
> 
> Better yet, use GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH, for instance as follows:
>export GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH=$HOME/guix
> Then create the same file layout in that directory as in the source code:
>mkdir -p $HOME/guix/gnu/packages
> Copy mail.scm there, modify mutt, then
>guix package -i mutt
> will first look for your modified package.
> 
> As this is not a bug, it would have been better to post to help-guix@gnu.org;
> let us continue the discussion there (if you are not yet subscribed, please
> do so), and I am closing this bug.
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 

Re: Guix unmounted my /home, while -i hello

[Jean Louis]

Hello Ludo,

It will certainly happen again. I have solved it for myself, but it may
happen to somebody in future by same manner.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 05:29:31PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> g...@rcdrun.com skribis:
> 
> > My personal problem is solved.
> 
> Great!
> 
> > But there is problem in the daemon or guix, that it unmounted user's
> > partition, and that should never happen on stable system.
> 
> Sorry, I still fail to understand what happened.  Let us know if that
> shows up again.
> 
> Ludo’.

Re: How to solve /etc/login.defs

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

Thank you much.

I have solved that by using ~/.xsession like below. And I use zsh, but
for X it was required to give PATH before Window Manager starts.

cat .xsession
PATH=/home/data1/protected/Programming/git/fgallery:/home/data1/protected/.guix-profile/bin:/home/data1/protected/.guix-profile/sbin:/home/data1/protected/bin:/home/data1/protected/bin/facebook:/home/data1/protected/bin/CRM:/home/data1/protected/bin/ses:/home/data1/protected/gnu/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games
export LANG="en_US.UTF-8"
export LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8"
export LANGUAGE="en_US.UTF-8"
export LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
exec icewm-session

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 05:09:08PM +0800, 宋文武 wrote:
> Jean Louis  writes:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am using guix on Debian. The default path for guix is:
> > $HOME/.guix-profile/bin and sbin
> >
> > And I am using login manager lightdm, so the default PATH cannot be
> > read. I guess, that /etc/login.defs have to be changed for each user to
> > include $PATH correctly.
> >
> > Otherwise, how is system supposed to know that default $PATH is
> > ~/.guix-profile/bin? among others?
> In GuixSD, this is done by `/etc/profile' which is read by sh-compatible
> login shells:
> --8<---cut here---start->8---
> if [ -f "$HOME/.guix-profile/etc/profile" ]
> then
>   # Load the user profile's settings.
>   GUIX_PROFILE="$HOME/.guix-profile" \
>   . "$HOME/.guix-profile/etc/profile"
> else
>   # At least define this one so that basic things just work
>   # when the user installs their first package.
>   export PATH="$HOME/.guix-profile/bin:$PATH"
> fi
> --8<---cut here---end--->8---

Re: guix package -i emacs, failed

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

Is there way to download binary directly? 

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 05:05:05PM +0800, 宋文武 wrote:
> Jean Louis  writes:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > Yesterday I was trying to compile emacs from guix: guix package -i
> > emacs, and it did not work, it said: gdk-pixbuf could not be done for
> > 3600 seconds, something like that.
> I think the issue is gdk-pixbuf's stress tests try to use a lot of
> memory and sometimes can run too long without any output.  There is
> an 'max-silent-time' option in guix can be used to set the 3600s limit,
> but it may be not what we need here ;-)
> >
> > However, when emacs is compiled directly, it works without problems.
> >
> > Maybe gdk-pixbuf should not be dependency for emacs. It is basic to have
> > emacs first.
> gdk-pixbuf is used by gtk+, and the default emacs is compiled with gtk+
> GUI.  There is 'emacs-no-x' with ncurses UI which don't need it.

How to solve /etc/login.defs

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

I am using guix on Debian. The default path for guix is:
$HOME/.guix-profile/bin and sbin

And I am using login manager lightdm, so the default PATH cannot be
read. I guess, that /etc/login.defs have to be changed for each user to
include $PATH correctly.

Otherwise, how is system supposed to know that default $PATH is
~/.guix-profile/bin? among others?

Jean Louis

guix package -i emacs, failed

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

Yesterday I was trying to compile emacs from guix: guix package -i
emacs, and it did not work, it said: gdk-pixbuf could not be done for
3600 seconds, something like that.

However, when emacs is compiled directly, it works without problems.

Maybe gdk-pixbuf should not be dependency for emacs. It is basic to have
emacs first.

Jean Louis

Cannot finish programs in terminal

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

I am on Debian and have following packages installed. I am using zsh,
and there was no problem yesterday, today is like this, I run some
program, and I cannot CONTROL-C neither CONTROL-Z and terminal waits for
something very very long time. This happens only 1-2 times with 1-2
commands in terminal, later it gets liberated.

--> which bash
/bin/bash





^C^C

glibc-locales   2.22out 
/gnu/store/kiwkawskr79bhvzpm7vcgbj2423jng33-glibc-locales-2.22
zsh 5.1.1   out /gnu/store/ril6fgdq0h04nkn5g6jlrzshw8rgx637-zsh-5.1.1
hello   2.10out /gnu/store/a49zfzc6xr6g20azlpjs8sikj6v5lnkp-hello-2.10
curl7.45.0  out /gnu/store/dway5hjn7ywrj7khxfpclyz8rhkq9w5d-curl-7.45.0
guile   2.0.11  out /gnu/store/5i87jzm90nw8j692y7z1j2qfx16h6ni3-guile-2.0.11
feh 2.14out /gnu/store/46sb1xrvfq8v5ag8r3d6kn2vc47s4gai-feh-2.14
gawk4.1.3   out /gnu/store/fq02781sfgdky4vws103py5id5nnmxc1-gawk-4.1.3
mcron   1.0.8   out /gnu/store/67qv6k18b5hi0wdg0rximgpaniaxbqm1-mcron-1.0.8
htop1.0.3   out /gnu/store/mml326vm8xv9m0xnklihwi9gi1fkg8zn-htop-1.0.3
lsh 2.1 out /gnu/store/bdvjfnc96c7b7n08zicdk6iiraa7bm1f-lsh-2.1
xterm   320 out /gnu/store/mpqidlrl0qcgar0i8q32zxnzalhvyx7h-xterm-320
mutt1.5.24  out /gnu/store/15g23gks3xsxgyv4mpp2r5m3hw64m1rm-mutt-1.5.24
pwgen   2.07out /gnu/store/hv9bcrs306xihkw8ib4zzhyzdyn5628g-pwgen-2.07
bash4.3.39  out /gnu/store/ibpm6n6706yimzr3967krkxi2ibxq5yh-bash-4.3.39

Re: guix edit mutt -- with new option, and dependency, how I got it working

[Jean Louis]

Hello Leo,

I was using mutt on Debian, that option was always included:
header_cache

- mutt accesses remote emails
- this speeds up everything
- GuixSD already includes gdbm and tokyocabinet
- I have chosen gdbm, but testing could show if else is better

Imagine, when you have 2000-3000 emails, one need to wait long time, for
mutt to read all the headers, seconds. This way it is 1 second. 

It should be included by default, as GuixSD does have external database
libraries.

Jean Louis



Mutt documentation:

.1. Header Caching

   Mutt provides optional support for caching message headers for the
   following types of folders: IMAP, POP, Maildir and MH. Header caching
   greatly speeds up opening large folders because for remote folders,
   headers usually only need to be downloaded once. For Maildir and MH,
   reading the headers from a single file is much faster than looking at
   possibly thousands of single files (since Maildir and MH use one file
   per message.)

   Header caching can be enabled via the configure script and the
   --enable-hcache option. It's not turned on by default because external
   database libraries are required: one of tokyocabinet, qdbm, gdbm or bdb
   must be present.

On Wed, Mar 09, 2016 at 08:45:22PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 01:44:47AM +0100, Jean Louis wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I wish to share how I got this working:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > So, I have done that with file:
> > 
> > ~/gnu/guix/packages/mutt.scm
> > 
> > which is attached.
> > 
> > And I have added, dependency "gdbm" for the option --enable-hcache to
> > have it working:
> > 
> > (inputs
> >  `(("cyrus-sasl" ,cyrus-sasl)
> >  ("gpgme" ,gpgme)
> >  ("gdbm" ,gdbm)
> > 
> > and
> > 
> >  `(#:configure-flags '("--enable-smtp"
> >"--enable-imap"
> >"--enable-pop"
> >"--enable-gpgme"
> >"--enable-hcache"
> 
> Cool, I'm glad you got that working.
> 
> Do you think this option (--enable-hcache) should be in our default mutt
> package? Would all mutt users benefit from it? Or is it something
> specific to your use case?

guix edit mutt -- with new option, and dependency, how I got it working

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

I wish to share how I got this working:

I wanted to do command:

guix edit mutt

only that one could not edit the file, so I have saved the file locally.

Andreas Enge pointed that I have to do following:

From: Andreas Enge
To: Jean Louis
Cc: 22970-d...@debbugs.gnu.org, help-guix@gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22970: guix edit mutt -- not working

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 12:22:20AM +0100, Jean Louis wrote:
> And I could not save the file in my home directory, and do:
> guix package -i mutt -f mail.scm

As mentioned on IRC, modify the file mail.scm by adding a line
   mutt
at the end. Then
   guix package -f mail.scm
does "install the package that the code within FILE evaluates to" as
explained by "guix package --help". mail.scm itself does not evaluate
to anything, it just contains a number of variable definitions. By adding
the line, it "returns" the value of the variable mutt, which is your
package definition.

Better yet, use GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH, for instance as follows:
   export GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH=$HOME/guix
Then create the same file layout in that directory as in the source code:
   mkdir -p $HOME/guix/gnu/packages
Copy mail.scm there, modify mutt, then
   guix package -i mutt
will first look for your modified package.

So, I have done that with file:

~/gnu/guix/packages/mutt.scm

which is attached.

And I have added, dependency "gdbm" for the option --enable-hcache to
have it working:

(inputs
 `(("cyrus-sasl" ,cyrus-sasl)
 ("gpgme" ,gpgme)
 ("gdbm" ,gdbm)

and

 `(#:configure-flags '("--enable-smtp"
   "--enable-imap"
   "--enable-pop"
   "--enable-gpgme"
   "--enable-hcache"


Jean Louis