Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

Hi Steve,

Hum. I see at least 1/ and 3/ as being annoying. I personally like to have
the JIRA/GitHub/Jenkins notifications on HipChat.

What would be the advantages of migrating so soon?

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Steve Ebersole  wrote:

> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat
> to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms
> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration.  However, they are
> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway.
> The list of missing features they sent me are:
>
>
>1. Guest access
>2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
>3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is
>currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations.
> See
>all available Stride integrations
> 454855738b8db6340974f28f3c2e1e6aa7c674a6314ad5df11014e5e2ee3
> 9bd3d4326606d2826b241a>
>.
>4. User management via API
>5. Dark mode
>
> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2).  (3) is nice-to-have,
> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point.
>
> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning.  Though TBH for myself
> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal.
>
> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our
> migration to Stride.
> ___
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> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Sanne Grinovero]

lol, I was writing about the same to the team list.

+1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked
it's easier to self-register.

+1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if
this doesn't work out we'll see.

Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions.

Thanks,
Sanne


On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat
> to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms
> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration.  However, they are
> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway.
> The list of missing features they sent me are:
>
>
>1. Guest access
>2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
>3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is
>currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. See
>all available Stride integrations
>
> 
>.
>4. User management via API
>5. Dark mode
>
> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2).  (3) is nice-to-have,
> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point.
>
> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning.  Though TBH for myself
> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal.
>
> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our
> migration to Stride.
> ___
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> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Sanne Grinovero]

On 17 May 2018 at 19:11, Guillaume Smet  wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> Hum. I see at least 1/ and 3/ as being annoying. I personally like to have
> the JIRA/GitHub/Jenkins notifications on HipChat.

JIRA and GitHub integrations are available already.

I'm confident Jenkins won't take long:
 - https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/STRIDE-1973

> What would be the advantages of migrating so soon?

We'll know sooner if we like it :)
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

Well, can we at least wait for the Jenkins integration then?

If as you say "it won't take long", we won't have long to wait.

Frankly, I don't see why we would want to rush into this migration...
especially since Stride is not ready yet. We will be part of the first
users to migrate and I'm not sure it's a good idea.

We also need someone with the time to configure correctly all the
integrations.

If we don't have all the features we use now (not talking about the ones we
don't use), I'm pretty sure it won't be better.

A chat system that works is essential to our work.

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 8:20 PM, Sanne Grinovero 
wrote:

> On 17 May 2018 at 19:11, Guillaume Smet  wrote:
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > Hum. I see at least 1/ and 3/ as being annoying. I personally like to
> have
> > the JIRA/GitHub/Jenkins notifications on HipChat.
>
> JIRA and GitHub integrations are available already.
>
> I'm confident Jenkins won't take long:
>  - https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/STRIDE-1973
>
> > What would be the advantages of migrating so soon?
>
> We'll know sooner if we like it :)
>
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat. 

When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it. 

For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good chance 
Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems that make a 
migration so urgent?

> Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero  a écrit :
> 
> lol, I was writing about the same to the team list.
> 
> +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked
> it's easier to self-register.
> 
> +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if
> this doesn't work out we'll see.
> 
> Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions.
> 
> Thanks,
> Sanne
> 
> 
>> On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
>> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat
>> to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms
>> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration.  However, they are
>> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway.
>> The list of missing features they sent me are:
>> 
>> 
>>   1. Guest access
>>   2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
>>   3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is
>>   currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. See
>>   all available Stride integrations
>>   
>> 
>>   .
>>   4. User management via API
>>   5. Dark mode
>> 
>> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2).  (3) is nice-to-have,
>> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point.
>> 
>> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning.  Though TBH for myself
>> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal.
>> 
>> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our
>> migration to Stride.
>> ___
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>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> ___
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> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Sanne Grinovero]

On 17 May 2018 at 20:32, Guillaume Smet  wrote:
> By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat.
>
> When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it.

I didn't say it was decided, but I think we're working on that since
Steve asked about it today. To which I agree *because* it seems clear
to me that we don't want to stay on it - a notion I inferred from
multiple previous discussions.

Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging
broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us
know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can
choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it
certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone
migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.

I for one gave up as well installing the native client and have been
using the web client since setting up my new workstation, as I was
expecting Stride to arrive soon.

The other day some people tried to join and gave up because of login
complexity - that's IMO a very bad sign: not welcoming community
people means it's failing its primary requirements.

And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that
I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to
multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully
it is!?).

Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay
or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?

Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily
without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.

Thanks,
Sanne


>
> For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good chance 
> Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems that make a 
> migration so urgent?
>
>> Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero  a écrit :
>>
>> lol, I was writing about the same to the team list.
>>
>> +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked
>> it's easier to self-register.
>>
>> +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if
>> this doesn't work out we'll see.
>>
>> Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sanne
>>
>>
>>> On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
>>> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat
>>> to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms
>>> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration.  However, they are
>>> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway.
>>> The list of missing features they sent me are:
>>>
>>>
>>>   1. Guest access
>>>   2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
>>>   3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is
>>>   currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. 
>>> See
>>>   all available Stride integrations
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   .
>>>   4. User management via API
>>>   5. Dark mode
>>>
>>> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2).  (3) is nice-to-have,
>>> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point.
>>>
>>> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning.  Though TBH for myself
>>> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal.
>>>
>>> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our
>>> migration to Stride.
>>> ___
>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>> ___
>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Radim Vansa]

Just out of curiosity, when choosing a replacement for HipChat, have you 
considered Zulip?

Infinispan uses that for about a month now and besides being too 
colourful (similar to HipChat) there's been positive feedback, 
especially due to the threading feature.

Radim [trying to lure everyone to the same client]

On 05/18/2018 12:16 AM, Sanne Grinovero wrote:
> On 17 May 2018 at 20:32, Guillaume Smet  wrote:
>> By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat.
>>
>> When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it.
> I didn't say it was decided, but I think we're working on that since
> Steve asked about it today. To which I agree *because* it seems clear
> to me that we don't want to stay on it - a notion I inferred from
> multiple previous discussions.
>
> Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging
> broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us
> know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can
> choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it
> certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone
> migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.
>
> I for one gave up as well installing the native client and have been
> using the web client since setting up my new workstation, as I was
> expecting Stride to arrive soon.
>
> The other day some people tried to join and gave up because of login
> complexity - that's IMO a very bad sign: not welcoming community
> people means it's failing its primary requirements.
>
> And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that
> I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to
> multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully
> it is!?).
>
> Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay
> or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?
>
> Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily
> without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Sanne
>
>
>> For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good chance 
>> Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems that make a 
>> migration so urgent?
>>
>>> Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero  a écrit :
>>>
>>> lol, I was writing about the same to the team list.
>>>
>>> +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked
>>> it's easier to self-register.
>>>
>>> +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if
>>> this doesn't work out we'll see.
>>>
>>> Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sanne
>>>
>>>
 On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
 I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat
 to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms
 of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration.  However, they are
 reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway.
 The list of missing features they sent me are:


1. Guest access
2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is
currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. 
 See
all available Stride integrations

 
.
4. User management via API
5. Dark mode

 I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2).  (3) is nice-to-have,
 but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point.

 I think (1) is the only one that is concerning.  Though TBH for myself
 personally, I do not think registering is a big deal.

 Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our
 migration to Stride.
 ___
 hibernate-dev mailing list
 hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
 https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>>> ___
>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> ___
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> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev


-- 
Radim Vansa 
JBoss Performance Team

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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

Hi,

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 12:16 AM, Sanne Grinovero 
wrote:

> Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging
> broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us
> know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can
> choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it
> certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone
> migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.
>

Well, "multiple flaws" is AFAIK:
1/ the packaging of the native client (well, native is a big word, it's
just a packaged webapp);
2/ the guest access/registration.

For 1/, did someone install the Stride client to be sure it's better?

2/ We don't have any guest access on Stride for now, WDYM by self
registration is better? IMHO, it would be nice to have GitHub/Google
authentication integration. I expect most people won't want to create an
account just to ask a quick question.

And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that
> I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to
> multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully
> it is!?).
>

Will it be better? Shouldn't we coordinate with WildFly to see where they
want to go?

If they don't go with Stride, it won't solve your issue.

The only way to fix this issue is to coordinate with all the projects you
have an interest in and choose the same tool (and check that the tool
allows authentication on several instances at once or has a centralized
instance).

AFAICS from Radim's email, Infinispan has already chosen another tool...


> Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay
> or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?
>

I say that we know HipChat sort of works for us as a daily coordination
tool (not talking about discussions with external people). We have no idea
Stride will.

And this recent comment
https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/STRIDE-1973?focusedCommentId=1796169&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-1796169
makes me think it's still half baked. It's only one comment but I don't
think there are lots of people already migrated there.

Frankly, the fact that moving to Stride is a one way street and we will
lose our coordination tool if it doesn't work well makes me feel
uncomfortable.


> Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily
> without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.
>

I just want to be able to do my job. That's basically my only requirement.

>From my point of view, it seems like a rushed decision that won't solve the
issues we have, and will potentially create others as we will be migrating
to beta software.

-- 
Guillaume
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Steve Ebersole]

You can't "do your job" without yet another way to get notified of CI job
status?  I'm confused - did Jenkins remove all of its other forms of
notification?  ;)  Seriously though,  I've never understood this desire to
have yet another communications "inbox" spammed by automated notifications
- and its even worse in Hip Cat because I can never hide them.  So it is
hard for me to incorporate this into the argument against moving.

Y'all really wanted to move to Hip Chat in the first place even though to
me it always felt (and feels) half-baked itself.  When you have a
communications client that does not even have a working install for the OS
well over half the team using it uses... well, to me that is far bigger
problem than not having a 13th way to see Jenkins notifications ;)  And if
the web client is as good as the native client, I assume you use the web
client instead?

So to me it really comes down to what are the blockers to not making this
move now.  So far I hear:

   1. No Jenkins notifications - see above
   2. Guest access - meh - If having to have an account to join the
   discussion is bad then we should immediately make our forums
   guest-accessible again as well ;)
   3. There may be better options out there - at some point can we just
   pick one and use it?  Is one "inbox" really that much better than another
   "inbox"?  And clearly I am not even tied to Hip Chat - I was one of the
   people wanting to not move there.  Radim, what makes Zulip so amazing?
   4. "Coordination tool"?  Not really sure what this one is about.  Is
   this back to Jenkins notifications?  If you mean a communications tool, of
   course it works.  They are largely the same.  Andrea, Sanne and I have
   played with it, so we in fact do have some idea if it will (spoiler: it
   does)
   5. We should go where WildFly goes (?).

The bottom line is that this is the way Atlassian is going.  Hip Chat is
beyond deprecated - to the point where they won't even fix the smallest of
bugs like the RPM package even though Red Hat employees spent hours doing
all the work for them in terms of investigation and solution.  They
literally just need to add the suggested RPM metadata changes.  But they
wont.  That tells you all you need to know.



On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 4:23 AM Guillaume Smet 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 12:16 AM, Sanne Grinovero 
> wrote:
>
>> Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging
>> broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us
>> know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can
>> choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it
>> certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone
>> migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.
>>
>
> Well, "multiple flaws" is AFAIK:
> 1/ the packaging of the native client (well, native is a big word, it's
> just a packaged webapp);
> 2/ the guest access/registration.
>
> For 1/, did someone install the Stride client to be sure it's better?
>
> 2/ We don't have any guest access on Stride for now, WDYM by self
> registration is better? IMHO, it would be nice to have GitHub/Google
> authentication integration. I expect most people won't want to create an
> account just to ask a quick question.
>
> And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that
>> I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to
>> multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully
>> it is!?).
>>
>
> Will it be better? Shouldn't we coordinate with WildFly to see where they
> want to go?
>
> If they don't go with Stride, it won't solve your issue.
>
> The only way to fix this issue is to coordinate with all the projects you
> have an interest in and choose the same tool (and check that the tool
> allows authentication on several instances at once or has a centralized
> instance).
>
> AFAICS from Radim's email, Infinispan has already chosen another tool...
>
>
>> Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay
>> or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?
>>
>
> I say that we know HipChat sort of works for us as a daily coordination
> tool (not talking about discussions with external people). We have no idea
> Stride will.
>
> And this recent comment
> https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/STRIDE-1973?focusedCommentId=1796169&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-1796169
> makes me think it's still half baked. It's only one comment but I don't
> think there are lots of people already migrated there.
>
> Frankly, the fact that moving to Stride is a one way street and we will
> lose our coordination tool if it doesn't work well makes me feel
> uncomfortable.
>
>
>> Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily
>> without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.
>>
>
> I just want to be able to do my job. That's basicall

Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Scott Marlow]

Does Zulip have a Fedora (native) client that can be installed by Fedora 
dnf tool?

I've been using Zulip in a browser [1] (as I do with hipchat) and it 
seems at least as good as hipchat.

Has anyone looked at the Zulip multiple organization (team) support [2]?

Scott

[1] https://infinispan.zulipchat.com/
[2] https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/1.7.1/prod-multiple-organizations.html

On 05/18/2018 02:57 AM, Radim Vansa wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, when choosing a replacement for HipChat, have you
> considered Zulip?
> 
> Infinispan uses that for about a month now and besides being too
> colourful (similar to HipChat) there's been positive feedback,
> especially due to the threading feature.
> 
> Radim [trying to lure everyone to the same client]
> 
> On 05/18/2018 12:16 AM, Sanne Grinovero wrote:
>> On 17 May 2018 at 20:32, Guillaume Smet  wrote:
>>> By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat.
>>>
>>> When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it.
>> I didn't say it was decided, but I think we're working on that since
>> Steve asked about it today. To which I agree *because* it seems clear
>> to me that we don't want to stay on it - a notion I inferred from
>> multiple previous discussions.
>>
>> Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging
>> broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us
>> know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can
>> choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it
>> certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone
>> migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.
>>
>> I for one gave up as well installing the native client and have been
>> using the web client since setting up my new workstation, as I was
>> expecting Stride to arrive soon.
>>
>> The other day some people tried to join and gave up because of login
>> complexity - that's IMO a very bad sign: not welcoming community
>> people means it's failing its primary requirements.
>>
>> And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that
>> I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to
>> multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully
>> it is!?).
>>
>> Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay
>> or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?
>>
>> Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily
>> without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sanne
>>
>>
>>> For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good chance 
>>> Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems that make a 
>>> migration so urgent?
>>>
 Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero  a écrit :

 lol, I was writing about the same to the team list.

 +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked
 it's easier to self-register.

 +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if
 this doesn't work out we'll see.

 Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions.

 Thanks,
 Sanne


> On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from 
> HipChat
> to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in 
> terms
> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration.  However, they are
> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway.
> The list of missing features they sent me are:
>
>
> 1. Guest access
> 2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
> 3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is
> currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular 
> integrations. See
> all available Stride integrations
> 
> 
> .
> 4. User management via API
> 5. Dark mode
>
> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2).  (3) is 
> nice-to-have,
> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point.
>
> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning.  Though TBH for myself
> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal.
>
> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our
> migration to Stride.
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Radim Vansa]

On 05/18/2018 03:56 PM, Scott Marlow wrote:
> Does Zulip have a Fedora (native) client that can be installed by 
> Fedora dnf tool?

No, they don't have RPM, I use the provided AppImage. Yes, nuisance 
(updates are not automatic). Issue [1] from 2015 looks stale.

htop tells me that it's consuming 114 MB of RES memory and 12% CPU (!) 
when idle, though - I was hoping for better.

[1] https://github.com/zulip/zulip/issues/41

> I've been using Zulip in a browser [1] (as I do with hipchat) and it 
> seems at least as good as hipchat.
>
> Has anyone looked at the Zulip multiple organization (team) support [2]?

Client supporting multiple organizations was among the key requirements; 
noone likes the situation around isolated WF & Hibernate HipChats.

R.

>
> Scott
>
> [1] https://infinispan.zulipchat.com/
> [2] 
> https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/1.7.1/prod-multiple-organizations.html
>
> On 05/18/2018 02:57 AM, Radim Vansa wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, when choosing a replacement for HipChat, have you
>> considered Zulip?
>>
>> Infinispan uses that for about a month now and besides being too
>> colourful (similar to HipChat) there's been positive feedback,
>> especially due to the threading feature.
>>
>> Radim [trying to lure everyone to the same client]
>>
>> On 05/18/2018 12:16 AM, Sanne Grinovero wrote:
>>> On 17 May 2018 at 20:32, Guillaume Smet  
>>> wrote:
 By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat.

 When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it.
>>> I didn't say it was decided, but I think we're working on that since
>>> Steve asked about it today. To which I agree *because* it seems clear
>>> to me that we don't want to stay on it - a notion I inferred from
>>> multiple previous discussions.
>>>
>>> Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging
>>> broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us
>>> know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can
>>> choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it
>>> certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone
>>> migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.
>>>
>>> I for one gave up as well installing the native client and have been
>>> using the web client since setting up my new workstation, as I was
>>> expecting Stride to arrive soon.
>>>
>>> The other day some people tried to join and gave up because of login
>>> complexity - that's IMO a very bad sign: not welcoming community
>>> people means it's failing its primary requirements.
>>>
>>> And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that
>>> I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to
>>> multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully
>>> it is!?).
>>>
>>> Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay
>>> or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily
>>> without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sanne
>>>
>>>
 For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good 
 chance Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems 
 that make a migration so urgent?

> Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero  a 
> écrit :
>
> lol, I was writing about the same to the team list.
>
> +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked
> it's easier to self-register.
>
> +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on 
> HipChat, if
> this doesn't work out we'll see.
>
> Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions.
>
> Thanks,
> Sanne
>
>
>> On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
>> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration 
>> from HipChat
>> to Stride.  Basically they have not gotten Stride 
>> feature-complete in terms
>> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration. However, 
>> they are
>> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate 
>> anyway.
>> The list of missing features they sent me are:
>>
>>
>>     1. Guest access
>>     2. Some admin controls and compliance settings
>>     3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira 
>> Server app is
>>     currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular 
>> integrations. See
>>     all available Stride integrations
>> 
>>     .
>>     4. User management via API
>>     5. Dark mode
>>
>> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2). (3) is 
>> nice-to-have,
>> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at s

Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

Hi,

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Steve Ebersole  wrote:

> You can't "do your job" without yet another way to get notified of CI job
> status?  I'm confused - did Jenkins remove all of its other forms of
> notification?  ;)  Seriously though,  I've never understood this desire to
> have yet another communications "inbox" spammed by automated notifications
> - and its even worse in Hip Cat because I can never hide them.  So it is
> hard for me to incorporate this into the argument against moving.
>

Typically, for the websites builds, I like to have the notifications on
HipChat. Not vital but it's something I appreciate.


> Y'all really wanted to move to Hip Chat in the first place even though to
> me it always felt (and feels) half-baked itself.
>

I wasn't part of the team at that point.


> And if the web client is as good as the native client, I assume you use
> the web client instead?
>

Yes. I have a pinned tab for it. Desktop notifications from the browser are
well integrated now.


> So to me it really comes down to what are the blockers to not making this
> move now.  So far I hear:
>
>1. No Jenkins notifications - see above
>2. Guest access - meh - If having to have an account to join the
>discussion is bad then we should immediately make our forums
>guest-accessible again as well ;)
>
> As mentioned in my email, I don't mind not having guest access if we have
some sort of external auth integration (Github/Twitter/Google). This way,
it avoids creating yet another account. That's what we have on our new
forums.

Maybe Stride has it, I don't know, but I would like our next chat system to
have that.

I took a look at several accounts we have on our forums and most of them
are from GitHub or Google (I took seven randomly and 1 had an account
specific to our forums - no better statistics sorry).

>
>1. There may be better options out there - at some point can we just
>pick one and use it?  Is one "inbox" really that much better than another
>"inbox"?  And clearly I am not even tied to Hip Chat - I was one of the
>people wanting to not move there.  Radim, what makes Zulip so amazing?
>2. "Coordination tool"?  Not really sure what this one is about.  Is
>this back to Jenkins notifications?  If you mean a communications tool, of
>course it works.  They are largely the same.  Andrea, Sanne and I have
>played with it, so we in fact do have some idea if it will (spoiler: it
>does)
>3. We should go where WildFly goes (?).
>
> My main point is that we have no idea if Stride is stable at the moment.
They definitely don't want to massively migrate the HipChat users and I
found at least one comment of a person who has migrated there and is not
happy at all (not saying it makes all the migrated users unhappy, just
saying that it might be a bad move if we do it now).

So again, what problem are we trying to solve by migrating to Stride while
it's still a work in progress? Because you reversed the question but it is
the correct question.

- If it is the client issue, is the Stride client better integrated? And is
it enough to trigger the migration?
- If it's the access difficulty, does Stride allow external
authentications? Because that's what external users want.
- If it's the "it's a pain to be logged in to multiple instances", are we
all moving to Stride and will it solve the issue - meaning is it easier to
be connected to multiple instances?
- Other issues I'm not aware of?

When you want to migrate to something new, you ponder the risks with the
benefits. For now, noone has stated any clear benefit, apart from "it's
new" and "HipChat has issues but we don't know if they will be solved by
Stride".

Note that my position is not "we should stay on HipChat forever" because we
can't as they will close the service at some point. My position is:
- I'm not sure the risk of moving to a half-baked system is worth it if
there are no clear benefits (I would wait a bit)
- is Stride gonna solve our issues or do we need to move to another system?
(because if it's the case, let's avoid the Stride square).

-- 
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Yoann Rodiere]

I think the problem here is about how we're choosing to migrate to another
tool. We are basically moving to Stride because Atlassian is being
uncooperative with updating HipChat, even though Stride is still not fully
functional.
Atlassian made HipChat, and we're not happy with HipChat. Atlassian made
Stride too, so let's not trust them blindly? Sure, we can always move to
another platform after moving to Stride, but it'll be a waste of time for
everyone. Let's see what our options really are, first!

I don't think we have many needs, and frankly I don't care which tool we'll
be using. I'd rather it be open source, but I'll just use whatever we pick
in the end, as long as I can write messages and receive messages. But I
want people to be on this platform: both the team, and ideally community
members. So let's just make sure everyone is at least comfortable with our
choice.
Sure some features are not useful to everybody, but in the end it's a
matter of taste and personal workflow, and we can't argue about that
without enforcing a standardized workflow. I think it would be more useful
to just list what we want, then see which platforms fit best, then pick
one, compromising as needed.

I started a document to compare various solutions, feel free to add
anything you think is relevant:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oiI_SO4O5OwTx7Fd8_lvhOvVcIIYLbnSY1MAqemz-JI/edit?usp=sharing

... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not
provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes
OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team
has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
instance?

Of course if we could host it ourselves it would be another story, but I
doubt anyone wants to add that to the list of tools we currently maintain.


On Mon, 21 May 2018 at 14:02 Guillaume Smet 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Steve Ebersole 
> wrote:
>
> > You can't "do your job" without yet another way to get notified of CI job
> > status?  I'm confused - did Jenkins remove all of its other forms of
> > notification?  ;)  Seriously though,  I've never understood this desire
> to
> > have yet another communications "inbox" spammed by automated
> notifications
> > - and its even worse in Hip Cat because I can never hide them.  So it is
> > hard for me to incorporate this into the argument against moving.
> >
>
> Typically, for the websites builds, I like to have the notifications on
> HipChat. Not vital but it's something I appreciate.
>
>
> > Y'all really wanted to move to Hip Chat in the first place even though to
> > me it always felt (and feels) half-baked itself.
> >
>
> I wasn't part of the team at that point.
>
>
> > And if the web client is as good as the native client, I assume you use
> > the web client instead?
> >
>
> Yes. I have a pinned tab for it. Desktop notifications from the browser are
> well integrated now.
>
>
> > So to me it really comes down to what are the blockers to not making this
> > move now.  So far I hear:
> >
> >1. No Jenkins notifications - see above
> >2. Guest access - meh - If having to have an account to join the
> >discussion is bad then we should immediately make our forums
> >guest-accessible again as well ;)
> >
> > As mentioned in my email, I don't mind not having guest access if we have
> some sort of external auth integration (Github/Twitter/Google). This way,
> it avoids creating yet another account. That's what we have on our new
> forums.
>
> Maybe Stride has it, I don't know, but I would like our next chat system to
> have that.
>
> I took a look at several accounts we have on our forums and most of them
> are from GitHub or Google (I took seven randomly and 1 had an account
> specific to our forums - no better statistics sorry).
>
> >
> >1. There may be better options out there - at some point can we just
> >pick one and use it?  Is one "inbox" really that much better than
> another
> >"inbox"?  And clearly I am not even tied to Hip Chat - I was one of
> the
> >people wanting to not move there.  Radim, what makes Zulip so amazing?
> >2. "Coordination tool"?  Not really sure what this one is about.  Is
> >this back to Jenkins notifications?  If you mean a communications
> tool, of
> >course it works.  They are largely the same.  Andrea, Sanne and I have
> >played with it, so we in fact do have some idea if it will (spoiler:
> it
> >does)
> >3. We should go where WildFly goes (?).
> >
> > My main point is that we have no idea if Stride is stable at the moment.
> They definitely don't want to massively migrate the HipChat users and I
> found at least one comment of a person who has migrated there and is not
> happy at all (not saying it makes all the migrated users unhappy, just
> saying that it might be a bad move if we do it now).
>
> So again,

Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Sanne Grinovero]

I see it much simpler.

We're moving to Stride because that's how HipChat evolved.


On Tue, 22 May 2018, 09:34 Yoann Rodiere,  wrote:

> I think the problem here is about how we're choosing to migrate to another
> tool. We are basically moving to Stride because Atlassian is being
> uncooperative with updating HipChat, even though Stride is still not fully
> functional.
> Atlassian made HipChat, and we're not happy with HipChat. Atlassian made
> Stride too, so let's not trust them blindly? Sure, we can always move to
> another platform after moving to Stride, but it'll be a waste of time for
> everyone. Let's see what our options really are, first!
>
> I don't think we have many needs, and frankly I don't care which tool we'll
> be using. I'd rather it be open source, but I'll just use whatever we pick
> in the end, as long as I can write messages and receive messages. But I
> want people to be on this platform: both the team, and ideally community
> members. So let's just make sure everyone is at least comfortable with our
> choice.
> Sure some features are not useful to everybody, but in the end it's a
> matter of taste and personal workflow, and we can't argue about that
> without enforcing a standardized workflow. I think it would be more useful
> to just list what we want, then see which platforms fit best, then pick
> one, compromising as needed.
>
> I started a document to compare various solutions, feel free to add
> anything you think is relevant:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oiI_SO4O5OwTx7Fd8_lvhOvVcIIYLbnSY1MAqemz-JI/edit?usp=sharing
>
> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not
> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes
> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team
> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
> instance?
>
> Of course if we could host it ourselves it would be another story, but I
> doubt anyone wants to add that to the list of tools we currently maintain.
>
>
> On Mon, 21 May 2018 at 14:02 Guillaume Smet 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Steve Ebersole 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > You can't "do your job" without yet another way to get notified of CI
> job
> > > status?  I'm confused - did Jenkins remove all of its other forms of
> > > notification?  ;)  Seriously though,  I've never understood this desire
> > to
> > > have yet another communications "inbox" spammed by automated
> > notifications
> > > - and its even worse in Hip Cat because I can never hide them.  So it
> is
> > > hard for me to incorporate this into the argument against moving.
> > >
> >
> > Typically, for the websites builds, I like to have the notifications on
> > HipChat. Not vital but it's something I appreciate.
> >
> >
> > > Y'all really wanted to move to Hip Chat in the first place even though
> to
> > > me it always felt (and feels) half-baked itself.
> > >
> >
> > I wasn't part of the team at that point.
> >
> >
> > > And if the web client is as good as the native client, I assume you use
> > > the web client instead?
> > >
> >
> > Yes. I have a pinned tab for it. Desktop notifications from the browser
> are
> > well integrated now.
> >
> >
> > > So to me it really comes down to what are the blockers to not making
> this
> > > move now.  So far I hear:
> > >
> > >1. No Jenkins notifications - see above
> > >2. Guest access - meh - If having to have an account to join the
> > >discussion is bad then we should immediately make our forums
> > >guest-accessible again as well ;)
> > >
> > > As mentioned in my email, I don't mind not having guest access if we
> have
> > some sort of external auth integration (Github/Twitter/Google). This way,
> > it avoids creating yet another account. That's what we have on our new
> > forums.
> >
> > Maybe Stride has it, I don't know, but I would like our next chat system
> to
> > have that.
> >
> > I took a look at several accounts we have on our forums and most of them
> > are from GitHub or Google (I took seven randomly and 1 had an account
> > specific to our forums - no better statistics sorry).
> >
> > >
> > >1. There may be better options out there - at some point can we just
> > >pick one and use it?  Is one "inbox" really that much better than
> > another
> > >"inbox"?  And clearly I am not even tied to Hip Chat - I was one of
> > the
> > >people wanting to not move there.  Radim, what makes Zulip so
> amazing?
> > >2. "Coordination tool"?  Not really sure what this one is about.  Is
> > >this back to Jenkins notifications?  If you mean a communications
> > tool, of
> > >course it works.  They are largely the same.  Andrea, Sanne and I
> have
> > >played with it, so we in fact do have some idea if it will (spoiler:
> > it
> > >does)
> > >3. We should go where WildFly goes (?).
> > >

Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere  wrote:

> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not
> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes
> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team
> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
> instance?
>

Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide
variety of non-commercial entities"

What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer.

HipChat is doing a very similar thing.

-- 
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Yoann Rodiere]

I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a
Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google authentication
are available even in the free plan.

Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here:
https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/#

[1]
https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-organization-repo?_ga=2.132026959.1338067251.1532438591-706928748.1527601569

Yoann Rodière
Hibernate NoORM Team
yo...@hibernate.org


On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet 
wrote:

> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere 
> wrote:
>
>> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
>> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not
>> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes
>> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team
>> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
>> instance?
>>
>
> Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide
> variety of non-commercial entities"
>
> What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer.
>
> HipChat is doing a very similar thing.
>
> --
> Guillaume
>
>
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Sanne Grinovero]

+1 to test Zulip, thanks for setting it up Yoann.

Personally having used it quite a bit with other projects: it has
potential but it's not particularly polished yet; in particular the
mobile client has severe issues, and people are quite often failing to
use the "topics" correctly.

In the news today, Atlassian is killing both HipChat and Stride;
Started a partnership to move to Slack:
 - https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership

I've been forced to use Slack as well for yet another group. Sadly not
OSS and infamous for needing tons of memory, but it's working very
well and has some very thouroughly well designed features.

So this raises more question..

  - will Zulip catch up?

  - Do we prefer a half baked solution just because it's open?

  - Is the humoungous memory requirement of Slack a real problem?

Tempted to just get back to IRC :/

The Atlassian&Slack partnership however is likely just a small step
towards more interesting integrations across the products.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 21:56, Yoann Rodiere  wrote:
>
> I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a
> Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google authentication
> are available even in the free plan.
>
> Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here:
> https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/#
>
> [1]
> https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-organization-repo?_ga=2.132026959.1338067251.1532438591-706928748.1527601569
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yo...@hibernate.org
>
>
> On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet 
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
> >> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not
> >> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes
> >> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team
> >> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
> >> instance?
> >>
> >
> > Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide
> > variety of non-commercial entities"
> >
> > What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer.
> >
> > HipChat is doing a very similar thing.
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume
> >
> >
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Yoann Rodiere]

So, I guess this closes the "Stride" case: we won't use it.

I quite like Zulip, but I must admit it doesn't do much to make life easy
for new users. This choice of theirs to make topics mandatory (or at least
*seemingly* mandatory), in particular, is very likely to confuse new users,
be it Hibernate Users joining to look for help, or even people in our team.
So even though I like it, I think a lot of people won't, so they won't use
it much, which kind of defeats the purpose of a communication tool.

Slack would do the trick, I guess, and since most of our rooms are public
we don't care that they probably use the data for their own profit (with
such a trove of data, I would be surprised if they didn't).

There are alternative solutions, though. Of course there are the clones of
Slack such Rocket Chat and Mattermost. I just created a RocketChat
instance: https://hibernate.rocket.chat/channel/general

There is also gitter, which apparently some people in our team have been
starting to use: https://gitter.im/hibernate/hibernate-orm . No JIRA
integration there, though.

I think in the end it will all come down to what people in our team are
most comfortable with. Whatever the technology and its future, what we need
most is everyone to be happy with it. We can deal with yet another switch
in the future, but in the meantime we need everyone to use whatever we
picked. And in this regard, it would help if people made their preferences
known... Anyone?

Yoann Rodière
Hibernate NoORM Team
yo...@hibernate.org



On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 08:43, Sanne Grinovero  wrote:

> +1 to test Zulip, thanks for setting it up Yoann.
>
> Personally having used it quite a bit with other projects: it has
> potential but it's not particularly polished yet; in particular the
> mobile client has severe issues, and people are quite often failing to
> use the "topics" correctly.
>
> In the news today, Atlassian is killing both HipChat and Stride;
> Started a partnership to move to Slack:
>  -
> https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership
>
> I've been forced to use Slack as well for yet another group. Sadly not
> OSS and infamous for needing tons of memory, but it's working very
> well and has some very thouroughly well designed features.
>
> So this raises more question..
>
>   - will Zulip catch up?
>
>   - Do we prefer a half baked solution just because it's open?
>
>   - Is the humoungous memory requirement of Slack a real problem?
>
> Tempted to just get back to IRC :/
>
> The Atlassian&Slack partnership however is likely just a small step
> towards more interesting integrations across the products.
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 21:56, Yoann Rodiere  wrote:
> >
> > I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a
> > Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google
> authentication
> > are available even in the free plan.
> >
> > Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here:
> > https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/#
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-organization-repo?_ga=2.132026959.1338067251.1532438591-706928748.1527601569
> >
> > Yoann Rodière
> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> > yo...@hibernate.org
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
> > >> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do
> not
> > >> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently
> removes
> > >> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan
> team
> > >> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
> > >> instance?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide
> > > variety of non-commercial entities"
> > >
> > > What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer.
> > >
> > > HipChat is doing a very similar thing.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Guillaume
> > >
> > >
> > ___
> > hibernate-dev mailing list
> > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
> ___
> hibernate-dev mailing list
> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Christian Beikov]

Slack does require more memory than other solutions, running on 200 MB 
here for 3 Organizations, but it is a really nice tool.

So my preference is Slack.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

*Christian Beikov*
Am 27.07.2018 um 09:19 schrieb Yoann Rodiere:
> So, I guess this closes the "Stride" case: we won't use it.
>
> I quite like Zulip, but I must admit it doesn't do much to make life easy
> for new users. This choice of theirs to make topics mandatory (or at least
> *seemingly* mandatory), in particular, is very likely to confuse new users,
> be it Hibernate Users joining to look for help, or even people in our team.
> So even though I like it, I think a lot of people won't, so they won't use
> it much, which kind of defeats the purpose of a communication tool.
>
> Slack would do the trick, I guess, and since most of our rooms are public
> we don't care that they probably use the data for their own profit (with
> such a trove of data, I would be surprised if they didn't).
>
> There are alternative solutions, though. Of course there are the clones of
> Slack such Rocket Chat and Mattermost. I just created a RocketChat
> instance: https://hibernate.rocket.chat/channel/general
>
> There is also gitter, which apparently some people in our team have been
> starting to use: https://gitter.im/hibernate/hibernate-orm . No JIRA
> integration there, though.
>
> I think in the end it will all come down to what people in our team are
> most comfortable with. Whatever the technology and its future, what we need
> most is everyone to be happy with it. We can deal with yet another switch
> in the future, but in the meantime we need everyone to use whatever we
> picked. And in this regard, it would help if people made their preferences
> known... Anyone?
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yo...@hibernate.org
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 08:43, Sanne Grinovero  wrote:
>
>> +1 to test Zulip, thanks for setting it up Yoann.
>>
>> Personally having used it quite a bit with other projects: it has
>> potential but it's not particularly polished yet; in particular the
>> mobile client has severe issues, and people are quite often failing to
>> use the "topics" correctly.
>>
>> In the news today, Atlassian is killing both HipChat and Stride;
>> Started a partnership to move to Slack:
>>   -
>> https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership
>>
>> I've been forced to use Slack as well for yet another group. Sadly not
>> OSS and infamous for needing tons of memory, but it's working very
>> well and has some very thouroughly well designed features.
>>
>> So this raises more question..
>>
>>- will Zulip catch up?
>>
>>- Do we prefer a half baked solution just because it's open?
>>
>>- Is the humoungous memory requirement of Slack a real problem?
>>
>> Tempted to just get back to IRC :/
>>
>> The Atlassian&Slack partnership however is likely just a small step
>> towards more interesting integrations across the products.
>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 21:56, Yoann Rodiere  wrote:
>>> I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a
>>> Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google
>> authentication
>>> are available even in the free plan.
>>>
>>> Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here:
>>> https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/#
>>>
>>> [1]
>>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-organization-repo?_ga=2.132026959.1338067251.1532438591-706928748.1527601569
>>> Yoann Rodière
>>> Hibernate NoORM Team
>>> yo...@hibernate.org
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere 
 wrote:

> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do
>> not
> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently
>> removes
> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan
>> team
> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
> instance?
>
 Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide
 variety of non-commercial entities"

 What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer.

 HipChat is doing a very similar thing.

 --
 Guillaume


>>> ___
>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>> ___
>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> ___
> hibernate-dev mailing list
> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-d

Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Emmanuel Bernard]

I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual
lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.

Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes
their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
nice.

Slack is slack, I don't particularly enjoy the UI but people seem to like
it. Their optional discussion thread model (within a channel) is a
disaster if you ask me. And, yes you need CPU and RAM in excess.

On Fri 18-07-27  9:19, Yoann Rodiere wrote:
>So, I guess this closes the "Stride" case: we won't use it.
>
>I quite like Zulip, but I must admit it doesn't do much to make life easy
>for new users. This choice of theirs to make topics mandatory (or at least
>*seemingly* mandatory), in particular, is very likely to confuse new users,
>be it Hibernate Users joining to look for help, or even people in our team.
>So even though I like it, I think a lot of people won't, so they won't use
>it much, which kind of defeats the purpose of a communication tool.
>
>Slack would do the trick, I guess, and since most of our rooms are public
>we don't care that they probably use the data for their own profit (with
>such a trove of data, I would be surprised if they didn't).
>
>There are alternative solutions, though. Of course there are the clones of
>Slack such Rocket Chat and Mattermost. I just created a RocketChat
>instance: https://hibernate.rocket.chat/channel/general
>
>There is also gitter, which apparently some people in our team have been
>starting to use: https://gitter.im/hibernate/hibernate-orm . No JIRA
>integration there, though.
>
>I think in the end it will all come down to what people in our team are
>most comfortable with. Whatever the technology and its future, what we need
>most is everyone to be happy with it. We can deal with yet another switch
>in the future, but in the meantime we need everyone to use whatever we
>picked. And in this regard, it would help if people made their preferences
>known... Anyone?
>
>Yoann Rodière
>Hibernate NoORM Team
>yo...@hibernate.org
>
>
>
>On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 08:43, Sanne Grinovero  wrote:
>
>> +1 to test Zulip, thanks for setting it up Yoann.
>>
>> Personally having used it quite a bit with other projects: it has
>> potential but it's not particularly polished yet; in particular the
>> mobile client has severe issues, and people are quite often failing to
>> use the "topics" correctly.
>>
>> In the news today, Atlassian is killing both HipChat and Stride;
>> Started a partnership to move to Slack:
>>  -
>> https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership
>>
>> I've been forced to use Slack as well for yet another group. Sadly not
>> OSS and infamous for needing tons of memory, but it's working very
>> well and has some very thouroughly well designed features.
>>
>> So this raises more question..
>>
>>   - will Zulip catch up?
>>
>>   - Do we prefer a half baked solution just because it's open?
>>
>>   - Is the humoungous memory requirement of Slack a real problem?
>>
>> Tempted to just get back to IRC :/
>>
>> The Atlassian&Slack partnership however is likely just a small step
>> towards more interesting integrations across the products.
>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 21:56, Yoann Rodiere  wrote:
>> >
>> > I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a
>> > Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google
>> authentication
>> > are available even in the free plan.
>> >
>> > Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here:
>> > https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/#
>> >
>> > [1]
>> >
>> https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-organization-repo?_ga=2.132026959.1338067251.1532438591-706928748.1527601569
>> >
>> > Yoann Rodière
>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
>> > yo...@hibernate.org
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere 
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free
>> > >> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do
>> not
>> > >> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently
>> removes
>> > >> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan
>> team
>> > >> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip
>> > >> instance?
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide
>> > > variety of non-commercial entities"
>> > >
>> > > What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer.
>> > >
>> > > HipChat is doing a very similar thing.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Guillaume
>> > >
>> > >
>> > ___
>> > hibernate-dev mailing list
>> > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>> > 

Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Guillaume Smet]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard 
wrote:

> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual
> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
>
> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes
> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
> nice.
>

I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a month,
maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
there's usually only one discussion in parallel).

The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.

If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always need 2
clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a topic or
create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. For
our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.

I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad Zulip's
is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?

Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.

Never used Slack.

-- 
Guillaume
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Emmanuel Bernard]

On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard 
>wrote:
>
>> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
>> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual
>> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
>> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
>>
>> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes
>> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
>> nice.
>>
>
>I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a month,
>maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
>there's usually only one discussion in parallel).

If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up,
then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an
example.

Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good
organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
conversation happened.

>
>The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
>
>If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always need 2
>clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a topic or
>create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. For
>our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
>
>I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad Zulip's
>is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
>
>Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
>
>Never used Slack.
>
>-- 
>Guillaume
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Steve Ebersole]

In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics?


On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
wrote:

> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
> >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual
> >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
> >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
> >>
> >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes
> >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
> >> nice.
> >>
> >
> >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a month,
> >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
> >there's usually only one discussion in parallel).
>
> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up,
> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an
> example.
>
> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good
> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
> conversation happened.
>
> >
> >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
> >
> >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always need
> 2
> >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a topic
> or
> >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. For
> >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
> >
> >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad
> Zulip's
> >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
> >
> >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
> >
> >Never used Slack.
> >
> >--
> >Guillaume
> ___
> hibernate-dev mailing list
> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Emmanuel Bernard]

Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your
conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a
given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails).

On Mon 18-07-30  9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote:
>In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics?
>
>
>On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
>wrote:
>
>> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
>> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard 
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
>> >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual
>> >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
>> >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
>> >>
>> >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes
>> >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
>> >> nice.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a month,
>> >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
>> >there's usually only one discussion in parallel).
>>
>> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up,
>> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an
>> example.
>>
>> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good
>> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
>> conversation happened.
>>
>> >
>> >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
>> >
>> >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always need
>> 2
>> >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a topic
>> or
>> >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. For
>> >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
>> >
>> >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad
>> Zulip's
>> >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
>> >
>> >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
>> >
>> >Never used Slack.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Guillaume
>> ___
>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>>
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Steve Ebersole]

I am not asking about a "supart".  Think about topics that we cross post to
hibernate-dev and willdfly-dev or hibernate-dev and infinispan-dev... so
the discussion *simultaneously* spans multiple topics/audiences.

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:27 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
wrote:

> Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your
> conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a
> given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails).
>
> On Mon 18-07-30  9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote:
> >In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics?
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
> >> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard <
> emman...@hibernate.org>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
> >> >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more
> casual
> >> >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
> >> >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
> >> >>
> >> >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And
> yes
> >> >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
> >> >> nice.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a
> month,
> >> >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
> >> >there's usually only one discussion in parallel).
> >>
> >> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up,
> >> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an
> >> example.
> >>
> >> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good
> >> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
> >> conversation happened.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
> >> >
> >> >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always
> need
> >> 2
> >> >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a
> topic
> >> or
> >> >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat.
> For
> >> >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
> >> >
> >> >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad
> >> Zulip's
> >> >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
> >> >
> >> >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
> >> >
> >> >Never used Slack.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Guillaume
> >> ___
> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >>
>
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Sanne Grinovero]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 at 16:39, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
>
> I am not asking about a "supart".  Think about topics that we cross post to
> hibernate-dev and willdfly-dev or hibernate-dev and infinispan-dev... so
> the discussion *simultaneously* spans multiple topics/audiences.

In zulip what you write goes to one and only one topic.

It's similar to the "room" concept of HipChat, except you can also opt
to decide to see all streams as once (when reading), if you whish to
deactive the "per-topic filter".

You don't write in this mode but it's useful to keep an eye on general activity.

Please try it out?

>
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:27 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
> wrote:
>
> > Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your
> > conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a
> > given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails).
> >
> > On Mon 18-07-30  9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote:
> > >In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics?
> > >
> > >
> > >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
> > >> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard <
> > emman...@hibernate.org>
> > >> >wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of
> > >> >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more
> > casual
> > >> >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
> > >> >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And
> > yes
> > >> >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
> > >> >> nice.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a
> > month,
> > >> >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
> > >> >there's usually only one discussion in parallel).
> > >>
> > >> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up,
> > >> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an
> > >> example.
> > >>
> > >> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good
> > >> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
> > >> conversation happened.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
> > >> >
> > >> >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always
> > need
> > >> 2
> > >> >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a
> > topic
> > >> or
> > >> >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat.
> > For
> > >> >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
> > >> >
> > >> >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad
> > >> Zulip's
> > >> >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
> > >> >
> > >> >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
> > >> >
> > >> >Never used Slack.
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Guillaume
> > >> ___
> > >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >>
> >
> ___
> hibernate-dev mailing list
> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
___
hibernate-dev mailing list
hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Yoann Rodiere]

If we must compare Zulip to emails, cross-posting to multiple mailing lists
would be equivalent to posting to different "streams", which are the
equivalent of "rooms" in HipChat or "channels" in IRC.
Short answer is: you can't do that, you have to duplicate the conversation.
But so would you in HipChat, or IRC, or Slack, or any chat software I've
ever heard of.

If you are talking about have a single conversation inside a single
"stream"/"room"/"channel" with multiple topics (like "JPA 2.2, CDI
integration, and also cache SPIs"), well... create a topic just for that
("JPA+CDI+Caches"). Or use the default topic (called "(no topic)").

I don't think the primary reason for topics is archiving and finding older
conversation. They help doing that, but their main purpose is to enable
multiple concurrent conversation to run their course *in parallel, in a
single "stream"/"room"/"channel"*. You can just focus on one topic and
temporarily ignore all other topics. Which is nice, but not necessarily
important in our case, since it's quite rare that we have multiple
conversations going on simultaneously in a given room. Though one could
argue that it's rare precisely because we don't have topics and
understanding each other would be very difficult.

Yoann Rodière
Hibernate NoORM Team
yo...@hibernate.org



On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 at 17:45, Steve Ebersole  wrote:

> I am not asking about a "supart".  Think about topics that we cross post to
> hibernate-dev and willdfly-dev or hibernate-dev and infinispan-dev... so
> the discussion *simultaneously* spans multiple topics/audiences.
>
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:27 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
> wrote:
>
> > Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your
> > conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a
> > given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails).
> >
> > On Mon 18-07-30  9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote:
> > >In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics?
> > >
> > >
> > >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard <
> emman...@hibernate.org>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
> > >> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard <
> > emman...@hibernate.org>
> > >> >wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion
> of
> > >> >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more
> > casual
> > >> >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
> > >> >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts.
> And
> > yes
> > >> >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
> > >> >> nice.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a
> > month,
> > >> >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
> > >> >there's usually only one discussion in parallel).
> > >>
> > >> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches
> up,
> > >> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for
> an
> > >> example.
> > >>
> > >> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very
> good
> > >> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
> > >> conversation happened.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
> > >> >
> > >> >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always
> > need
> > >> 2
> > >> >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a
> > topic
> > >> or
> > >> >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat.
> > For
> > >> >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
> > >> >
> > >> >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad
> > >> Zulip's
> > >> >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
> > >> >
> > >> >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
> > >> >
> > >> >Never used Slack.
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Guillaume
> > >> ___
> > >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >>
> >
> ___
> hibernate-dev mailing list
> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
___
hibernate-dev mailing list
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Re: [hibernate-dev] Stride

[Radim Vansa]

On 07/30/2018 06:20 PM, Yoann Rodiere wrote:
> If we must compare Zulip to emails, cross-posting to multiple mailing lists
> would be equivalent to posting to different "streams", which are the
> equivalent of "rooms" in HipChat or "channels" in IRC.
> Short answer is: you can't do that, you have to duplicate the conversation.
> But so would you in HipChat, or IRC, or Slack, or any chat software I've
> ever heard of.
>
> If you are talking about have a single conversation inside a single
> "stream"/"room"/"channel" with multiple topics (like "JPA 2.2, CDI
> integration, and also cache SPIs"), well... create a topic just for that
> ("JPA+CDI+Caches"). Or use the default topic (called "(no topic)").
>
> I don't think the primary reason for topics is archiving and finding older
> conversation. They help doing that, but their main purpose is to enable
> multiple concurrent conversation to run their course *in parallel, in a
> single "stream"/"room"/"channel"*. You can just focus on one topic and
> temporarily ignore all other topics. Which is nice, but not necessarily
> important in our case, since it's quite rare that we have multiple
> conversations going on simultaneously in a given room. Though one could
> argue that it's rare precisely because we don't have topics and
> understanding each other would be very difficult.

There are often some parallel discussions on mailing list(s). The thing 
is that since Infinispan moved to Zulip the -dev list has become more of 
an announce-list, 95% of discussion moved to Zulip - just because it's 
faster to discuss it that way. Also if the discussion is not on a 
mailing list but couple of selected people, it's easier if that's just a 
topic on private stream and you can notify more people about that, 
keeping the history. (You can't add people to a strictly private 
conversation and let them see the history, though).

Radim

>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yo...@hibernate.org
>
>
>
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 at 17:45, Steve Ebersole  wrote:
>
>> I am not asking about a "supart".  Think about topics that we cross post to
>> hibernate-dev and willdfly-dev or hibernate-dev and infinispan-dev... so
>> the discussion *simultaneously* spans multiple topics/audiences.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:27 AM Emmanuel Bernard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your
>>> conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a
>>> given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails).
>>>
>>> On Mon 18-07-30  9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote:
 In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics?


 On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard <
>> emman...@hibernate.org>
 wrote:

> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard <
>>> emman...@hibernate.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion
>> of
>>> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more
>>> casual
>>> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject
>>> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack.
>>>
>>> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts.
>> And
>>> yes
>>> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really
>>> nice.
>>>
>> I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a
>>> month,
>> maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so,
>> there's usually only one discussion in parallel).
> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches
>> up,
> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for
>> an
> example.
>
> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very
>> good
> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual
> conversation happened.
>
>> The rest of the time, we just share in the channel.
>>
>> If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always
>>> need
> 2
>> clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a
>>> topic
> or
>> create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat.
>>> For
>> our usage I find it a bit suboptimal.
>>
>> I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad
> Zulip's
>> is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages?
>>
>> Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip.
>>
>> Never used Slack.
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume
> ___
> hibernate-dev mailing list
> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
>> ___
>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.o