RE: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins/Picric acid hazzards
Yes, but why take the chance. There are also other chemicals in the lab the picric acid can interact with to make it even more volitile than it was to begin with. Dynamite other explosives have the same problem. The older it gets the more degraded and unstable it becomes. One never knows if or when. I'd like to avoid traumatically amputating my arms if possible, thank you. Claire From: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu on behalf of Geoff Sent: Mon 9/17/2012 9:26 AM To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Subject: Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins/Picric acid hazzards I am with Wayne on this one. While I have not tried to make it explode it does seem to me that the dangers are hyped beyond reason. Years ago an old bottle of picric acid would be discovered in a high school chemistry lab. Horrors! Call the bomb squad! So it was taken out to a large field, packed with explosives and BOOM! Of course it exploded, it was surrounded with explosives. Geoff On 9/14/2012 8:58 PM, E. Wayne Johnson wrote: What danger of Picric Acid are you concerned with? ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins/Picric acid hazzards
I am with Wayne on this one. While I have not tried to make it explode it does seem to me that the dangers are hyped beyond reason. Years ago an old bottle of picric acid would be discovered in a high school chemistry lab. Horrors! Call the bomb squad! So it was taken out to a large field, packed with explosives and BOOM! Of course it exploded, it was surrounded with explosives. Geoff On 9/14/2012 8:58 PM, E. Wayne Johnson wrote: What danger of Picric Acid are you concerned with? Surely its not the hyped explosion hazards. We use picric acid and as inquisitive boys we have tried very hard to ignite it thinking it would be fun. We dried some down and wrapped it in aluminum foil and with appropriate protection outdoors beat it with a hammer. So very disappointing. We only made it flat. We tried heating some. It does burn pretty good but not really dramatically. We tried purifying and recrystallizing it and it still didnt do anything spectacular. Our conclusion that as fireworks, pure picric acid is pretty much a dud. I have done some reading about picric acid and it seems that in lab conditions a picric acid explosion is very unlikely maybe impossible even if the stuff is very dry indeed. We do keep our picric acid wet in a safe spot for storage. Some metal salts of picric acid are said to be much more sensitive. We havent made any lead picrate to play with since we are worried about aerosolizing the lead when it does explode or flash. There are some youtube movies about how to make explosive derivatives of picric acid. it seems that picric acid is just not a very good explosive, and that small amounts in free open air are unlikely to explode. I have been unable to find any reference to any lab accidents with picric acid. Does anyone have any information to the contrary? On 9/15/2012 7:55 AM, Jackie O'Connor wrote: As a GLP tox lab, we have done away with using Bouin's altogether - there is literature out there (somewhere - not handy now) that indicates Modified Davidson's fixative provides the same testicular detail of bouins, without the picric acid danger. We switched about 3-4 years ago, and our testicle experts are happy. I believe most labs are getting away from Bouins. Jackie O' -Original Message- From: Frances Elizabeth Barronfbar...@stanford.edu To: histonethistonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins Hi Margaret, Our protocol for whole mouse embryos E14.5-E18.5 was to fix in Bouin's for 5-7 days at room temp (I have gone longer, but it isn't exactly recommended). Most of the length of time, however, was to compensate for the large tissue size and need for good penetration. I'm not sure how that converts to your particular tissue of interest. For long term storage, John Shelton at UT Southwestern (who did our vacuum processing for large embryos) told me that it was preferred to put them in 1% neutral buffered formalin and store them at room temp. We had previously been storing them in 70% EtOH, but John said that the long exposure to EtOH leads to excessive drying of the tissue and ultimately brittleness if used later. I'm assuming this thought could be applied to any tissue piece, but I don't have enough experience to really know. We have successfully gotten beautiful paraffin sections from 3mo-1year samples that have been stored this way. I'm hoping this will be of some help to you, and perhaps others in the list can comment. Best of luck, ~Francie *** Francie Barron, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow, Joseph Wu Lab Stanford University School of Medicine Lorry I. Lokey Stem Cell Research Building 265 Campus Drive, Room G1105 Stanford, CA 94305-5454 Phone: (650) 724-5564 or (650) 724-9240 Fax: (650) 736-0234 *** Message: 7 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:06:33 -0300 From: Margaret Hornemho...@upei.ca Subject: [Histonet] mouse testis in Bouins To:histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Message-ID:505301a902d100018...@oes-grpwise.novell.upei.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I am asking this for a friend. How long can mouse testis be kept in Bouins without distortion of cell morphology? Days? weeks? months? years? I noticed in the Archives that many people fix in Bouins , rinse, then store in 70% EtOH. This is preferable I assume. Again, how long is ok? Thanks in advance for the sharing of your accumulated wisdom, Margaret ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins
Geez - why is everyone so touchy about picric acid? To be clear - we process thousands of testes a year - we had to dispose of hundreds of gallons of Bouin's a year - as well as try to store it prior to use. Residual Bouin's fixed tissues were stored in 70% alcohol which was a pain in the keester.Residual Davidson's fixed tissues are archived with the other formalin fixed tissues. Because of disposal and storage costs, it was financially beneficial for us to find an alternative and we did. Ta da. Jackie O' -Original Message- From: Lee Peggy Wenk lpw...@sbcglobal.net To: E. Wayne Johnson e...@pigsqq.org; Jackie O'Connor b427...@aol.com Cc: histonet histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Sent: Sat, Sep 15, 2012 7:53 am Subject: Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins From CDC - not quite a lab, but in Jan. 2002, this company was melting down the plastic from around capacitors, to regain the metals inside, by putting the capacitors in a heavy metal pot with acid, and leaving it overnight. The next day, the person went to remove the metal lid from the metal pot. Picric acid had formed, and a large explosion occurred. Look at the photos of the pot, and at the remains of the concrete building with a roof. 1 person killed, 1 severely injured, 5 others also injured. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/nj/02nj003.html Peggy A. Wenk, HTL(ASCP)SLS William Beaumont Hospital Royal Oak, MI 48073 The views expressed are mine, and do not reflect on the hospital -Original Message- From: E. Wayne Johnson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:58 PM To: Jackie O'Connor Cc: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Subject: Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins What danger of Picric Acid are you concerned with? Surely its not the hyped explosion hazards. We use picric acid and as inquisitive boys we have tried very hard to ignite it thinking it would be fun. We dried some down and wrapped it in aluminum foil and with appropriate protection outdoors beat it with a hammer. So very disappointing. We only made it flat. We tried heating some. It does burn pretty good but not really dramatically. We tried purifying and recrystallizing it and it still didnt do anything spectacular. Our conclusion that as fireworks, pure picric acid is pretty much a dud. I have done some reading about picric acid and it seems that in lab conditions a picric acid explosion is very unlikely maybe impossible even if the stuff is very dry indeed. We do keep our picric acid wet in a safe spot for storage. Some metal salts of picric acid are said to be much more sensitive. We havent made any lead picrate to play with since we are worried about aerosolizing the lead when it does explode or flash. There are some youtube movies about how to make explosive derivatives of picric acid. it seems that picric acid is just not a very good explosive, and that small amounts in free open air are unlikely to explode. I have been unable to find any reference to any lab accidents with picric acid. Does anyone have any information to the contrary? On 9/15/2012 7:55 AM, Jackie O'Connor wrote: As a GLP tox lab, we have done away with using Bouin's altogether - there is literature out there (somewhere - not handy now) that indicates Modified Davidson's fixative provides the same testicular detail of bouins, without the picric acid danger. We switched about 3-4 years ago, and our testicle experts are happy. I believe most labs are getting away from Bouins. Jackie O' -Original Message- From: Frances Elizabeth Barronfbar...@stanford.edu To: histonethistonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins Hi Margaret, Our protocol for whole mouse embryos E14.5-E18.5 was to fix in Bouin's for 5-7 days at room temp (I have gone longer, but it isn't exactly recommended). Most of the length of time, however, was to compensate for the large tissue size and need for good penetration. I'm not sure how that converts to your particular tissue of interest. For long term storage, John Shelton at UT Southwestern (who did our vacuum processing for large embryos) told me that it was preferred to put them in 1% neutral buffered formalin and store them at room temp. We had previously been storing them in 70% EtOH, but John said that the long exposure to EtOH leads to excessive drying of the tissue and ultimately brittleness if used later. I'm assuming this thought could be applied to any tissue piece, but I don't have enough experience to really know. We have successfully gotten beautiful paraffin sections from 3mo-1year samples that have been stored this way. I'm hoping this will be of some help to you, and perhaps others in the list can comment. Best of luck, ~Francie *** Francie Barron, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow, Joseph Wu Lab Stanford University School
Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins
From CDC - not quite a lab, but in Jan. 2002, this company was melting down the plastic from around capacitors, to regain the metals inside, by putting the capacitors in a heavy metal pot with acid, and leaving it overnight. The next day, the person went to remove the metal lid from the metal pot. Picric acid had formed, and a large explosion occurred. Look at the photos of the pot, and at the remains of the concrete building with a roof. 1 person killed, 1 severely injured, 5 others also injured. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/nj/02nj003.html Peggy A. Wenk, HTL(ASCP)SLS William Beaumont Hospital Royal Oak, MI 48073 The views expressed are mine, and do not reflect on the hospital -Original Message- From: E. Wayne Johnson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:58 PM To: Jackie O'Connor Cc: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Subject: Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins What danger of Picric Acid are you concerned with? Surely its not the hyped explosion hazards. We use picric acid and as inquisitive boys we have tried very hard to ignite it thinking it would be fun. We dried some down and wrapped it in aluminum foil and with appropriate protection outdoors beat it with a hammer. So very disappointing. We only made it flat. We tried heating some. It does burn pretty good but not really dramatically. We tried purifying and recrystallizing it and it still didnt do anything spectacular. Our conclusion that as fireworks, pure picric acid is pretty much a dud. I have done some reading about picric acid and it seems that in lab conditions a picric acid explosion is very unlikely maybe impossible even if the stuff is very dry indeed. We do keep our picric acid wet in a safe spot for storage. Some metal salts of picric acid are said to be much more sensitive. We havent made any lead picrate to play with since we are worried about aerosolizing the lead when it does explode or flash. There are some youtube movies about how to make explosive derivatives of picric acid. it seems that picric acid is just not a very good explosive, and that small amounts in free open air are unlikely to explode. I have been unable to find any reference to any lab accidents with picric acid. Does anyone have any information to the contrary? On 9/15/2012 7:55 AM, Jackie O'Connor wrote: As a GLP tox lab, we have done away with using Bouin's altogether - there is literature out there (somewhere - not handy now) that indicates Modified Davidson's fixative provides the same testicular detail of bouins, without the picric acid danger. We switched about 3-4 years ago, and our testicle experts are happy. I believe most labs are getting away from Bouins. Jackie O' -Original Message- From: Frances Elizabeth Barronfbar...@stanford.edu To: histonethistonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins Hi Margaret, Our protocol for whole mouse embryos E14.5-E18.5 was to fix in Bouin's for 5-7 days at room temp (I have gone longer, but it isn't exactly recommended). Most of the length of time, however, was to compensate for the large tissue size and need for good penetration. I'm not sure how that converts to your particular tissue of interest. For long term storage, John Shelton at UT Southwestern (who did our vacuum processing for large embryos) told me that it was preferred to put them in 1% neutral buffered formalin and store them at room temp. We had previously been storing them in 70% EtOH, but John said that the long exposure to EtOH leads to excessive drying of the tissue and ultimately brittleness if used later. I'm assuming this thought could be applied to any tissue piece, but I don't have enough experience to really know. We have successfully gotten beautiful paraffin sections from 3mo-1year samples that have been stored this way. I'm hoping this will be of some help to you, and perhaps others in the list can comment. Best of luck, ~Francie *** Francie Barron, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow, Joseph Wu Lab Stanford University School of Medicine Lorry I. Lokey Stem Cell Research Building 265 Campus Drive, Room G1105 Stanford, CA 94305-5454 Phone: (650) 724-5564 or (650) 724-9240 Fax: (650) 736-0234 *** Message: 7 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:06:33 -0300 From: Margaret Hornemho...@upei.ca Subject: [Histonet] mouse testis in Bouins To:histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Message-ID:505301a902d100018...@oes-grpwise.novell.upei.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I am asking this for a friend. How long can mouse testis be kept in Bouins without distortion of cell morphology? Days? weeks? months? years? I noticed in the Archives that many people fix in Bouins , rinse, then store in 70% EtOH. This is preferable I assume. Again, how long is ok? Thanks in advance
Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins
As a GLP tox lab, we have done away with using Bouin's altogether - there is literature out there (somewhere - not handy now) that indicates Modified Davidson's fixative provides the same testicular detail of bouins, without the picric acid danger. We switched about 3-4 years ago, and our testicle experts are happy. I believe most labs are getting away from Bouins. Jackie O' -Original Message- From: Frances Elizabeth Barron fbar...@stanford.edu To: histonet histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins Hi Margaret, Our protocol for whole mouse embryos E14.5-E18.5 was to fix in Bouin's for 5-7 days at room temp (I have gone longer, but it isn't exactly recommended). Most of the length of time, however, was to compensate for the large tissue size and need for good penetration. I'm not sure how that converts to your particular tissue of interest. For long term storage, John Shelton at UT Southwestern (who did our vacuum processing for large embryos) told me that it was preferred to put them in 1% neutral buffered formalin and store them at room temp. We had previously been storing them in 70% EtOH, but John said that the long exposure to EtOH leads to excessive drying of the tissue and ultimately brittleness if used later. I'm assuming this thought could be applied to any tissue piece, but I don't have enough experience to really know. We have successfully gotten beautiful paraffin sections from 3mo-1year samples that have been stored this way. I'm hoping this will be of some help to you, and perhaps others in the list can comment. Best of luck, ~Francie *** Francie Barron, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow, Joseph Wu Lab Stanford University School of Medicine Lorry I. Lokey Stem Cell Research Building 265 Campus Drive, Room G1105 Stanford, CA 94305-5454 Phone: (650) 724-5564 or (650) 724-9240 Fax: (650) 736-0234 *** Message: 7 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:06:33 -0300 From: Margaret Horne mho...@upei.ca Subject: [Histonet] mouse testis in Bouins To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Message-ID: 505301a902d100018...@oes-grpwise.novell.upei.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I am asking this for a friend. How long can mouse testis be kept in Bouins without distortion of cell morphology? Days? weeks? months? years? I noticed in the Archives that many people fix in Bouins , rinse, then store in 70% EtOH. This is preferable I assume. Again, how long is ok? Thanks in advance for the sharing of your accumulated wisdom, Margaret ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
Re: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins
What danger of Picric Acid are you concerned with? Surely its not the hyped explosion hazards. We use picric acid and as inquisitive boys we have tried very hard to ignite it thinking it would be fun. We dried some down and wrapped it in aluminum foil and with appropriate protection outdoors beat it with a hammer. So very disappointing. We only made it flat. We tried heating some. It does burn pretty good but not really dramatically. We tried purifying and recrystallizing it and it still didnt do anything spectacular. Our conclusion that as fireworks, pure picric acid is pretty much a dud. I have done some reading about picric acid and it seems that in lab conditions a picric acid explosion is very unlikely maybe impossible even if the stuff is very dry indeed. We do keep our picric acid wet in a safe spot for storage. Some metal salts of picric acid are said to be much more sensitive. We havent made any lead picrate to play with since we are worried about aerosolizing the lead when it does explode or flash. There are some youtube movies about how to make explosive derivatives of picric acid. it seems that picric acid is just not a very good explosive, and that small amounts in free open air are unlikely to explode. I have been unable to find any reference to any lab accidents with picric acid. Does anyone have any information to the contrary? On 9/15/2012 7:55 AM, Jackie O'Connor wrote: As a GLP tox lab, we have done away with using Bouin's altogether - there is literature out there (somewhere - not handy now) that indicates Modified Davidson's fixative provides the same testicular detail of bouins, without the picric acid danger. We switched about 3-4 years ago, and our testicle experts are happy. I believe most labs are getting away from Bouins. Jackie O' -Original Message- From: Frances Elizabeth Barronfbar...@stanford.edu To: histonethistonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: [Histonet] RE: mouse testis in Bouins Hi Margaret, Our protocol for whole mouse embryos E14.5-E18.5 was to fix in Bouin's for 5-7 days at room temp (I have gone longer, but it isn't exactly recommended). Most of the length of time, however, was to compensate for the large tissue size and need for good penetration. I'm not sure how that converts to your particular tissue of interest. For long term storage, John Shelton at UT Southwestern (who did our vacuum processing for large embryos) told me that it was preferred to put them in 1% neutral buffered formalin and store them at room temp. We had previously been storing them in 70% EtOH, but John said that the long exposure to EtOH leads to excessive drying of the tissue and ultimately brittleness if used later. I'm assuming this thought could be applied to any tissue piece, but I don't have enough experience to really know. We have successfully gotten beautiful paraffin sections from 3mo-1year samples that have been stored this way. I'm hoping this will be of some help to you, and perhaps others in the list can comment. Best of luck, ~Francie *** Francie Barron, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow, Joseph Wu Lab Stanford University School of Medicine Lorry I. Lokey Stem Cell Research Building 265 Campus Drive, Room G1105 Stanford, CA 94305-5454 Phone: (650) 724-5564 or (650) 724-9240 Fax: (650) 736-0234 *** Message: 7 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:06:33 -0300 From: Margaret Hornemho...@upei.ca Subject: [Histonet] mouse testis in Bouins To:histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu Message-ID:505301a902d100018...@oes-grpwise.novell.upei.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone, I am asking this for a friend. How long can mouse testis be kept in Bouins without distortion of cell morphology? Days? weeks? months? years? I noticed in the Archives that many people fix in Bouins , rinse, then store in 70% EtOH. This is preferable I assume. Again, how long is ok? Thanks in advance for the sharing of your accumulated wisdom, Margaret ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet ___ Histonet mailing list Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
