Re: [hlds] An open letter to Valve about MOTDs

[Robert Paulson]

This would never work. It is impossible to automatically tell if a webpage
isn't a rules listing or a backpack page. Anyone who ran 32 slots knows any
sort of penalty practically removes you from quickplay because there are
too many servers. Since you ran ProTF2 until being banned for fake players
3 times, you should know better than this.

There is one solution already suggested before that would've solved the
reloading ads in the background without completely crippling the MOTD.
Simply block the webpage usermessage if it exceeds a rate limit such as 2
times per 10 minutes.

Speaking to the TF2 devs this would literally only take 5 extra minutes of
coding. There is already code in place for rate limiting inside A2SINFO
handling, so you could copy and paste that. Then insert an if statement
inside the usermessage handling function and remove the VGUIMenu url if the
rate limit is exceeded.



On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Supreet  wrote:

> Agreed with the Doctor. Quickplay does not promote community building.
>
> Also, another great point mentioned by another individual:
>
> Ever since free to play, people don't want to donate to community servers.
> They would rather spend on items.
>
> So, we need ads and full liberty to do whatever we want on the expensive
> server hardware we're running.
>
> There's a simple solution.
>
> Valve, tweak the engine to use less resources (we know you won't, too much
> effort, loss of quality) so it would lessen the cost of renting hardware.
>
> OR
>
> A very plausible solution (up to the developers) - Figure out a way to
> give ad enabled servers some quick play penalty.
>
> In the long run, this is a very viable solution that does not require
> custom change.
>
> Also, how about the CVAR people use to connect using console to avoid ads.
>
> connect IP matchmaking
>
> Please Valve, are you really going to try to convince us you put it out
> there for testing and debugging?
>
> You gave all the whiny kids about ads a free get out of ads pass!
>
> If you are not going to change anything, at least please remove that CVAR.
>
> What do you guys think about the CVAR and quickplay penalty idea?
>
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] An open letter to Valve about MOTDs

[Alteran Ancient]

He's been doing this for a while now. Whether it's because he's just lazy,
misunderstands the principle of a mailing list, or doesn't want Valve to
see him insulting anyone who doesn't agree with him, I can't really be sure.

I myself received a direct abusive email from him the other day because he
didn't agree with my message. Liquid Source is not a pleasant individual
and should probably be stricken from the mailing list.

I, like most of you, subscribed to this mailing list because I want to stay
informed of HLDS news and to discuss ideas with others. Not to have abuse
hurled at others or myself because someone cannot have their own way.

Now, with that unpleasant interlude out of the way, back to business?
On 9 Nov 2013 01:30, "Hutch"  wrote:

> I approve of this post as far as the two middle paragraphs go, although
> could have been worded a bit less aggressive. Had it been so, it would have
> hammered home a good conveyance of what I feel. But I think you feel the
> way I do about the ads. It drops the communal sense of what the game should
> not lose sight of.
>
> Liquid, you realize you are not mailing the list, rather our individual
> email accounts right?
> Hutch
>
> On 2013-11-08 16:39, Liquid Source wrote:
>
>> @Dr.McKay - You are such an ignorant, why would you agree with double
>> talk? He didn't "SAY" anything, he proposed a few half assed
>> hypothetical questions in a thinly veiled attempt to hide his support
>> for hijacking people game experience and running ad servers. You say
>> "Couldn't have said it better myself", HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING OF VALID
>> CONTRIBUTION TO THE TOPIC.
>>
>> Just because some asshat decided to change the model doesn't make it
>> right. The current model is destined for failure, those that support
>> it only support it by reflex and acceptence of the fact that they
>> can't do anything about it. There are more profitable companies still
>> following the old model (Make something, Sell something) without all
>> the sneaky handed force feeding of garbage that does nothing to
>> improve the gaming communities experience. Those of you that support
>> this test model are only screwing yourselves and those of us that
>> truly "know" into a corner, for now. Grow up and move on or contribute
>> something that actually moves gaming forward.
>>
>> Ad servers are yet another form of scum-baggery perpetrated by the
>> lowest forms of life to take advantage of those that don't know they
>> have a choice. There should be a option box that allows users to block
>> ad servers all together by the people that game, then you would see
>> how popular that option really is. People that endeavor to get
>> something for nothing (ad server ops) are the ones that that need to
>> be weeded out and brought into the sun light. To say you are serving
>> "your" community only tells us that it's not a community at all,
>> communities aren't owned like an asset they are a shared resource and
>> should be treated as such.
>>
>> Has anyone noticed how none of the Valve guys ever offer any
>> thoughts? That's because they don't have a plan, a plan other than
>> doing as little as possible so they can thieve as much as they can
>> from the people that buy their crappy games and hats.
>>
>> Face it kids, after the game has been paid for Valve doesn't give a
>> shit about you, the communities or people in general.
>>
>
> --
> Hutch
>
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Re: [hlds] An open letter to Valve about MOTDs

[Paul]

Personally I think it's a good idea you have. Whether or not Valve listen
to us is another question, so far the people involved in doing the recent
update have kept quiet since the update. I guess it's just a matter of us
being persistent until a fair compromise can be established and implemented.


On 10 November 2013 10:30, Supreet  wrote:

> Agreed with the Doctor. Quickplay does not promote community building.
>
> Also, another great point mentioned by another individual:
>
> Ever since free to play, people don't want to donate to community servers.
> They would rather spend on items.
>
> So, we need ads and full liberty to do whatever we want on the expensive
> server hardware we're running.
>
> There's a simple solution.
>
> Valve, tweak the engine to use less resources (we know you won't, too much
> effort, loss of quality) so it would lessen the cost of renting hardware.
>
> OR
>
> A very plausible solution (up to the developers) - Figure out a way to
> give ad enabled servers some quick play penalty.
>
> In the long run, this is a very viable solution that does not require
> custom change.
>
> Also, how about the CVAR people use to connect using console to avoid ads.
>
> connect IP matchmaking
>
> Please Valve, are you really going to try to convince us you put it out
> there for testing and debugging?
>
> You gave all the whiny kids about ads a free get out of ads pass!
>
> If you are not going to change anything, at least please remove that CVAR.
>
> What do you guys think about the CVAR and quickplay penalty idea?
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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Re: [hlds] An open letter to Valve about MOTDs

[Supreet]

Agreed with the Doctor. Quickplay does not promote community building.

Also, another great point mentioned by another individual:

Ever since free to play, people don't want to donate to community servers.
They would rather spend on items.

So, we need ads and full liberty to do whatever we want on the expensive
server hardware we're running.

There's a simple solution.

Valve, tweak the engine to use less resources (we know you won't, too much
effort, loss of quality) so it would lessen the cost of renting hardware.

OR

A very plausible solution (up to the developers) - Figure out a way to give
ad enabled servers some quick play penalty.

In the long run, this is a very viable solution that does not require
custom change.

Also, how about the CVAR people use to connect using console to avoid ads.

connect IP matchmaking

Please Valve, are you really going to try to convince us you put it out
there for testing and debugging?

You gave all the whiny kids about ads a free get out of ads pass!

If you are not going to change anything, at least please remove that CVAR.

What do you guys think about the CVAR and quickplay penalty idea?
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Re: [hlds] An open letter to Valve about MOTDs

[Doctor McKay]

Unfortunately, Quickplay seems to make users scared of the server browser.
Or newbies won't even know that the server browser exists.

Even if the game prompts them to add the server to their favorites, they
can't come back if they don't know how to pull up their favorites.


Dr. McKay
www.doctormckay.com


On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Jesse Oak  wrote:

> >Not if they can mash 'quickplay' again next time and get an identical
> experience on any number of other servers.
>
> Then provide an experience that sets your community apart from the rest.
> Prior to quickplay you were still competing with other servers and had to
> provide a way to convince them that yours was better. I know when I first
> started playing CSS, TF2, and ZPS I stuck to the servers that tried new
> community maps one day a week it was a lot of fun to try out these new maps
> and it got the custom mappers to get involved with the community and take
> feedback.
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 6:46 AM, ics  wrote:
>
>> That has been always the main thing that i do what i do to have my own
>> servers and control over them but they seem to take that away bit by bit.
>> In CSGO, your server is basically open for any map unless you yourself
>> restrict it. L4D based games, you couldn't even force certain map to be on
>> 24/7. Right now on TF2 you are required to register your server to even get
>> quickplay traffic and run it with 24 slots to get optimum count. Also you
>> are required to run only Valve approved maps to get max benefits. Your
>> benefits that were set on the go are slipping away and you haven't even
>> noticed.
>>
>> Quickplay while it is good, it also killed a lot of servers and there
>> isn't barely any maps that run anything else than official maps.
>>
>> -ics
>>
>> Dill Bates kirjoitti:
>>
>>  The benefit I get from running my own server is that I have admin
>>> rights, and make make my own rules. That's good enough for me. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 8, 2013, at 10:38 PM, ics  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Good and valid points. Registering server for benefits seems to be only
 perk for us running servers and receiving players from quickplay. Basically
 everyone else have a shot of getting something back except us. I don't like
 advertisements in general and i don't use them or donations but i'm all in
 for some sort of model that gets some other benefits for running a server
 that is usefull to the game as a whole. But i guess there are too many
 idiots among us and little time for Valve to check who is good and who is
 bad.

 -ics

 Doctor McKay kirjoitti:

> I really couldn't have said it better myself.
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com 
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Robert Paulson 
>  thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Servers don't need ads much like TF2 didn't need to become
> free-to-play. It is just a different model of revenue, one that
> server owners should be free to choose.
>
> Once TF2 became F2P, a larger portion of donation money went to
> the Mann Co Store instead. It also filled slots full of kids who
> aren't able to pay anything because if they had any money they
> would have moved to new games like COD. When a game is brand new,
> there are plenty of people willing to shell out +100€ on servers
> and donations without a second thought. But that time is long past
> for TF2 now. For those who want more than the cheapest servers or
> colocation, donations aren't enough.
>
> If you want to see what a donation only game as old as TF2 looks
> like, all you have to do is look at COD4. The top servers there
> are dominated by the cheapest servers. If you are donation only be
> honest with yourself:
>
> - How much are you paying out of your own pocket? Why is it
> immoral to just break even when modelers used to release free on
> Gamebanana are now making tens of thousands a month on the Mann Co
> Store?
>
> - Do you really have the best server that can be offered to
> players? The answer is most undoubtedly no. Even the fastest
> servers choke on 32 players at times and Valve's own servers
> couldn't even handle 24 players until they restricted FPS to 66.
>
> - How long have you been around? When you first start a community
> you will get a lot of money, but this does not last as communities
> like Firepowered have figured out.
>
> Most of the people here wouldn't be so excited about killing off
> ad supported servers if they didn't think they would get more
> players from it. Really why would you care about ads to the point
> you are excited about removing functionality from your own
> servers? If we're going to have a real conver