Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
I didn't say you can only see 24fps - that'd be the Electronic Engineers that make that claim. If you want to read between lines, please do it with other peoples writings. No, you can react alot faster, but there are many important conditions which will take a significant time to cover here. The point merely is, that in order to epxloit this bug accurately, you will require as much, and possibly more skill than not using it. You gain in one area and loose massively in another. - Have a think about why we haven't (often) moved from static crosshairs for example. Clayton Macleod wrote: yes, let's all just pull numbers out of our asses and tout them as fact...I have a request for the next one...please tell us all how we can only see 24fps! Sheesh. On 8/12/05, James Tucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben - please don't start new subject threads by hitting reply to other mailing list messages - whilst your mail program may not be dynamic enough to present data in a non-linear form, mine is - and the meta data (There is an in-reply-to: messageid header in your mail) keeps this new topic under old threads. - This is not a bug in my software, you aren't attepting to continue a topic, so don't reply to a topic. Just a minor gripe. Thanks. With regard to these settings - I've seen this mentioned a while back too. Whilst it's a problem, the advantage is not real - you only gain the ability to inaccurately shoot at something which you cannot see. The advantage through areas such as double doors is a misnomer because - the reason you cant react to it straight is because the visibility time is very low. This time frame doesn't change length as a result of this bug, you simply remove all triggers except human timing. Now, the human brain operates at around about 17Hz, it is capable of appearing faster as a product of associativity and connectivity aswell as a continuous and asynchronous network layout. The point merely is, that humans are not very goot at replicating individual 10hz triggers - thus I think it's unlikely that a significant number of kills is going to be gained by this. If this is as far as a player is willing to cheat (seems a bit odd to go so far, and no further, except in fear of vac maybe) then it's not unlikely they have some reasonable skill to play the average masses anyway, and in this regard, any annoyance they generate is likely more attributable to general CS anger. Try the reaction time test on asciitable.com - see if you can get 0.1s regularly. -- Clayton Macleod get ye flask You cannot get ye flask. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
It's not outlooks fault either. Here's the header that was created that is the offender: X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thread-Index: AcWeq+K0e0wALzL7T2KnLlJT231tWgARJ6HQABYa2uA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As you can see, the messages in this thread have been replied to, and as such, the mailer has added in reply to headers with a message ID. This is RFC compliant and at no point have any of the applications involved done anything wrong. The user clicked reply, when in fact they didn't want to reply, they wanted a fresh message :) Ben wrote: Oh well, I thought there was only outlook or pine. And I know which I'd rather use out of those too :P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of m0gely Sent: 12 August 2005 23:44 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Ben wrote: Apologies, I wasn't aware that other mail clients had a problem with it and it's a convenient way of doing it. It's not that other mail clients have a problem, it's that Outlook merely groups by the subject rather than viewing the messages in threaded fashion. Similar to this: http://www.iml.uts.edu.au/images/utsonline/messages/6.gif You can see who is replying to who. So your message appears in this view as a reply to someone else, that in until it's read and is obviously a new thread. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
I disagree, it would be simple to tweak the interp value you use in your exploit to match your average reaction time, so that you just aim your crosshair at the double doors, then shoot normally when someone crosses and score a hit. And don't forget that when you're not using it you can just toggle back to your desired not-exploit interp settings. - No, you can react alot faster, but there are many important conditions which will take a significant time to cover here. The point merely is, that in order to epxloit this bug accurately, you will require as much, and possibly more skill than not using it. You gain in one area and loose massively in another. - Have a think about why we haven't (often) moved from static crosshairs for example. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Thank you very much for email this to hundreds of counter strike source players when you could have easily just emailed Alfred. Shall I put this on the myg0t forums now or is there there already... Graham On 8/12/05, Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Graham, this isn't breaking news guy - playing around with cl_interp and cl_interpolate values with source has been around almost as long as the game has been out (read: over a year). CAL took steps to keep everyone on a level playing field with their latest version of the CSP plugin (wish there were a public version of that that didn't spam console chat msgs) but Valve needs to lock those cvars down so no one can manipulate them at all. There's no real need to do so. If your ping/connection is so bad that you feel the need to adjust those cvars, then you have other problems that need addressing first. Cl_interpolate 1 and cl_interp 0.01 is where those values should be locked to. Even the CPL enforced those last month during their summer tourney. Whatcha think Alfred, can these cvars finally be locked down? - K2 http://www.hardfought.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graham Robinson Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 5:46 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Thank you very much for email this to hundreds of counter strike source players when you could have easily just emailed Alfred. Shall I put this on the myg0t forums now or is there there already... Graham On 8/12/05, Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Ben - please don't start new subject threads by hitting reply to other mailing list messages - whilst your mail program may not be dynamic enough to present data in a non-linear form, mine is - and the meta data (There is an in-reply-to: messageid header in your mail) keeps this new topic under old threads. - This is not a bug in my software, you aren't attepting to continue a topic, so don't reply to a topic. Just a minor gripe. Thanks. With regard to these settings - I've seen this mentioned a while back too. Whilst it's a problem, the advantage is not real - you only gain the ability to inaccurately shoot at something which you cannot see. The advantage through areas such as double doors is a misnomer because - the reason you cant react to it straight is because the visibility time is very low. This time frame doesn't change length as a result of this bug, you simply remove all triggers except human timing. Now, the human brain operates at around about 17Hz, it is capable of appearing faster as a product of associativity and connectivity aswell as a continuous and asynchronous network layout. The point merely is, that humans are not very goot at replicating individual 10hz triggers - thus I think it's unlikely that a significant number of kills is going to be gained by this. If this is as far as a player is willing to cheat (seems a bit odd to go so far, and no further, except in fear of vac maybe) then it's not unlikely they have some reasonable skill to play the average masses anyway, and in this regard, any annoyance they generate is likely more attributable to general CS anger. Try the reaction time test on asciitable.com - see if you can get 0.1s regularly. Ben wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant *** This relates to cl_interp cl_interpolate settings. When the lag compensation system in the source engine calculates how much to roll back object positions by for hit detection it takes a number of things into consideration, and one of them is the value of cl_interp that is set on the client. cl_interp sets the number of seconds in the past that your client looks for updates to use for interpolation and adds an additional latency, hence why the lag compensation takes it into account. If you start a server with a bot and set sv_cheats 1, sv_showhitboxes 2 (make sure you have the default interpolation settings) you will see the difference between the client side position of the bot (the model) and the server side (the multicoloured hitbox). When you fire a shot near the bot, you will see that hitbox snap back fairly precisely onto the position of the model. That is the lag compensation rolling back the bots position to compensate for your latency. The hack works because of a bug in the lag compensation that does not check whether the client is *actually* using interpolation. Therefore you can set cl_interpolate 0, cl_interp 0.1, and during hit detection the lag compensation will roll back the target's position to BEHIND where it was on your screen. This means you can shoot people after they have disappeared, i.e. through narrow gaps like the double doors on d2 even if you do not have the superhuman reactions to do it legitimately. Combine this hack with a toggle script so that you can turn it on and off as needed, and you will have a very powerful and very unfair advantage over your enemy. To see it, set cl_interpolate 0 and keep cl_interp at 0.1 You will see that when you shoot near the bot that the server rolls back the position to *behind* where you see it, and to register hits you need to shoot at the position that the hitbox snaps back to. The lag compensation thinks that that position is where you see the model on your screen due to your cl_interp value, but your client is not actually using it because cl_interpolate is set to 0. ** I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Whats the point in having a cvar if its just going to be locked? Clamp it to a certain range of values maybe, but don't lock it at a specific value. K2 wrote: Graham, this isn't breaking news guy - playing around with cl_interp and cl_interpolate values with source has been around almost as long as the game has been out (read: over a year). CAL took steps to keep everyone on a level playing field with their latest version of the CSP plugin (wish there were a public version of that that didn't spam console chat msgs) but Valve needs to lock those cvars down so no one can manipulate them at all. There's no real need to do so. If your ping/connection is so bad that you feel the need to adjust those cvars, then you have other problems that need addressing first. Cl_interpolate 1 and cl_interp 0.01 is where those values should be locked to. Even the CPL enforced those last month during their summer tourney. Whatcha think Alfred, can these cvars finally be locked down? - K2 http://www.hardfought.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graham Robinson Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 5:46 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Thank you very much for email this to hundreds of counter strike source players when you could have easily just emailed Alfred. Shall I put this on the myg0t forums now or is there there already... Graham On 8/12/05, Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
IMHO cl_interp could be locked to a server cvar - the reason being that interp should be set with a knowledge of sv_minupdaterate and any ping kickers / tickrate changes, aswell as desired client type. The game feels nicer in situations when cl_interp can be set to 0.05 or below, providing all clients and the server are providing suitable rates. K2 wrote: Graham, this isn't breaking news guy - playing around with cl_interp and cl_interpolate values with source has been around almost as long as the game has been out (read: over a year). CAL took steps to keep everyone on a level playing field with their latest version of the CSP plugin (wish there were a public version of that that didn't spam console chat msgs) but Valve needs to lock those cvars down so no one can manipulate them at all. There's no real need to do so. If your ping/connection is so bad that you feel the need to adjust those cvars, then you have other problems that need addressing first. Cl_interpolate 1 and cl_interp 0.01 is where those values should be locked to. Even the CPL enforced those last month during their summer tourney. Whatcha think Alfred, can these cvars finally be locked down? - K2 http://www.hardfought.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graham Robinson Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 5:46 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Thank you very much for email this to hundreds of counter strike source players when you could have easily just emailed Alfred. Shall I put this on the myg0t forums now or is there there already... Graham On 8/12/05, Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
yes, let's all just pull numbers out of our asses and tout them as fact...I have a request for the next one...please tell us all how we can only see 24fps! Sheesh. On 8/12/05, James Tucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben - please don't start new subject threads by hitting reply to other mailing list messages - whilst your mail program may not be dynamic enough to present data in a non-linear form, mine is - and the meta data (There is an in-reply-to: messageid header in your mail) keeps this new topic under old threads. - This is not a bug in my software, you aren't attepting to continue a topic, so don't reply to a topic. Just a minor gripe. Thanks. With regard to these settings - I've seen this mentioned a while back too. Whilst it's a problem, the advantage is not real - you only gain the ability to inaccurately shoot at something which you cannot see. The advantage through areas such as double doors is a misnomer because - the reason you cant react to it straight is because the visibility time is very low. This time frame doesn't change length as a result of this bug, you simply remove all triggers except human timing. Now, the human brain operates at around about 17Hz, it is capable of appearing faster as a product of associativity and connectivity aswell as a continuous and asynchronous network layout. The point merely is, that humans are not very goot at replicating individual 10hz triggers - thus I think it's unlikely that a significant number of kills is going to be gained by this. If this is as far as a player is willing to cheat (seems a bit odd to go so far, and no further, except in fear of vac maybe) then it's not unlikely they have some reasonable skill to play the average masses anyway, and in this regard, any annoyance they generate is likely more attributable to general CS anger. Try the reaction time test on asciitable.com - see if you can get 0.1s regularly. -- Clayton Macleod get ye flask You cannot get ye flask. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Apologies, I wasn't aware that other mail clients had a problem with it and it's a convenient way of doing it. The advantage is real. With my normal ping, which is about 50ms I could set a cl_interp time of up to 0.5, which is plenty of time to see someone cross, have a fag and beer, and then headshot them. I could even tweak it so that the timing matched my average reaction time. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Tucker Sent: 12 August 2005 18:26 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Ben - please don't start new subject threads by hitting reply to other mailing list messages - whilst your mail program may not be dynamic enough to present data in a non-linear form, mine is - and the meta data (There is an in-reply-to: messageid header in your mail) keeps this new topic under old threads. - This is not a bug in my software, you aren't attepting to continue a topic, so don't reply to a topic. Just a minor gripe. Thanks. With regard to these settings - I've seen this mentioned a while back too. Whilst it's a problem, the advantage is not real - you only gain the ability to inaccurately shoot at something which you cannot see. The advantage through areas such as double doors is a misnomer because - the reason you cant react to it straight is because the visibility time is very low. This time frame doesn't change length as a result of this bug, you simply remove all triggers except human timing. Now, the human brain operates at around about 17Hz, it is capable of appearing faster as a product of associativity and connectivity aswell as a continuous and asynchronous network layout. The point merely is, that humans are not very goot at replicating individual 10hz triggers - thus I think it's unlikely that a significant number of kills is going to be gained by this. If this is as far as a player is willing to cheat (seems a bit odd to go so far, and no further, except in fear of vac maybe) then it's not unlikely they have some reasonable skill to play the average masses anyway, and in this regard, any annoyance they generate is likely more attributable to general CS anger. Try the reaction time test on asciitable.com - see if you can get 0.1s regularly. Ben wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant *** This relates to cl_interp cl_interpolate settings. When the lag compensation system in the source engine calculates how much to roll back object positions by for hit detection it takes a number of things into consideration, and one of them is the value of cl_interp that is set on the client. cl_interp sets the number of seconds in the past that your client looks for updates to use for interpolation and adds an additional latency, hence why the lag compensation takes it into account. If you start a server with a bot and set sv_cheats 1, sv_showhitboxes 2 (make sure you have the default interpolation settings) you will see the difference between the client side position of the bot (the model) and the server side (the multicoloured hitbox). When you fire a shot near the bot, you will see that hitbox snap back fairly precisely onto the position of the model. That is the lag compensation rolling back the bots position to compensate for your latency. The hack works because of a bug in the lag compensation that does not check whether the client is *actually* using interpolation. Therefore you can set cl_interpolate 0, cl_interp 0.1, and during hit detection the lag compensation will roll back the target's position to BEHIND where it was on your screen. This means you can shoot people after they have disappeared, i.e. through narrow gaps like the double doors on d2 even if you do not have the superhuman reactions to do it legitimately. Combine this hack with a toggle script so that you can turn it on and off as needed, and you will have a very powerful and very unfair advantage over your enemy. To see it, set cl_interpolate 0 and keep cl_interp at 0.1 You will see that when you shoot near the bot that the server rolls back the position to *behind* where you see it, and to register hits you need to shoot at the position that the hitbox snaps back to. The lag compensation thinks that that position is where you see the model on your screen due to your cl_interp value, but your client is not actually using it because cl_interpolate is set to 0. ** I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
The problem is with competitive players exploiting it. If a myg0t member reads this and goes into your sever then you'll bigger problems than them sniping you through doors. The reason I posted here is because there are people who will understand the problem and it's severity who will put pressure on valve to fix it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graham Robinson Sent: 12 August 2005 16:46 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Thank you very much for email this to hundreds of counter strike source players when you could have easily just emailed Alfred. Shall I put this on the myg0t forums now or is there there already... Graham On 8/12/05, Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am posting this here because it's important and I don't trust that it won't get filtered out if submitted through the bug report tool - the bug exists on the source server anyway so it's vaguely relevant I think this needs to be urgently urgently fixed! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
and please trim posts, thanks On 8/12/05, Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies, I wasn't aware that other mail clients had a problem with it and it's a convenient way of doing it. The advantage is real. With my normal ping, which is about 50ms I could set a cl_interp time of up to 0.5, which is plenty of time to see someone cross, have a fag and beer, and then headshot them. I could even tweak it so that the timing matched my average reaction time. -- Clayton Macleod get ye flask You cannot get ye flask. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Ben wrote: Apologies, I wasn't aware that other mail clients had a problem with it and it's a convenient way of doing it. It's not that other mail clients have a problem, it's that Outlook merely groups by the subject rather than viewing the messages in threaded fashion. Similar to this: http://www.iml.uts.edu.au/images/utsonline/messages/6.gif You can see who is replying to who. So your message appears in this view as a reply to someone else, that in until it's read and is obviously a new thread. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Oh well, I thought there was only outlook or pine. And I know which I'd rather use out of those too :P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of m0gely Sent: 12 August 2005 23:44 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Ben wrote: Apologies, I wasn't aware that other mail clients had a problem with it and it's a convenient way of doing it. It's not that other mail clients have a problem, it's that Outlook merely groups by the subject rather than viewing the messages in threaded fashion. Similar to this: http://www.iml.uts.edu.au/images/utsonline/messages/6.gif You can see who is replying to who. So your message appears in this view as a reply to someone else, that in until it's read and is obviously a new thread. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug
Outlook, right? ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 1:19 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: RE: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Oh well, I thought there was only outlook or pine. And I know which I'd rather use out of those too :P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of m0gely Sent: 12 August 2005 23:44 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Serious Config Hack - Lag Comp bug Ben wrote: Apologies, I wasn't aware that other mail clients had a problem with it and it's a convenient way of doing it. It's not that other mail clients have a problem, it's that Outlook merely groups by the subject rather than viewing the messages in threaded fashion. Similar to this: http://www.iml.uts.edu.au/images/utsonline/messages/6.gif You can see who is replying to who. So your message appears in this view as a reply to someone else, that in until it's read and is obviously a new thread. - m0gely ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
