Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
But we have a vast source of original music for or with our instrument employed. I protest only against recommendations of all this baroque literature. Why ? O.k., is higher & a multitude of notes of advantage for our instrument, as too many people just struggle with the most simple musical text, playing three out of two notes as split-splash Shouldn´t we take more advantage of the sound qualities of the horn, the lyrical potentials, the power if played in a group ? - Nothing to say about some operatic (thus lyrical & choir) or movie (powerful) music adapted for ensemble of horn. Greetings from Xi´an mid in China Hans ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Hand in Telemann
I'm currently playing the Telemann 2 horn concerto from Tafelmusik. All the notes are "natural" notes, with the exception of one (written) F natural, top of the staff. It comes right after an F# so Telemann must have expected a distinction. However, since that F# (11th harmonic) is actually in between F and F#, players could probably bend it either way. We will consider F natural an available harmonic series note. Thus, since there is not a single chromatic note in this concerto, Telemann probably wrote it thinking the horns only had access to the harmonic series. Otherwise, for example, when the 1st mvt modulates to minor iii, he might have given the horns a leading tone (written D#, requiring hand stopping). Hope this is an informative data point. Regards, Marc Gelfo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
Not to mention Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition. To invoke one of the 20th century's great composers, Duke Ellington, "If it sounds good, it is good." John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Greene Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:10 AM To: Horn-List Subject: [Hornlist] Transcriptions Don't look down *too* much on transcriptions. Remember that without playing transcriptions, orchestras would have no Ravel Pavane, no Mozart orchestration of Messiah, and no Debussy Children's Corner. Pianists would not have a boatload of Liszt. That isn't to say that we should not explore to find original literature for our instrument, but let's not be unnecessarily snobby about transcription playing either. Would you rather play Henry van Stumpen's original Triumphal March for Horn, Bass Clarinet and Tuba with an optional Contrabassoon and Occarina descant or a transcription of a Debussy Arabesque for woodwind quintet? Offered as food for thought. Gary Greene ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
This thread came up after I recommended various pieces that hornists can play with other instruments, in their original form. Only one of the suggestions was a transcription. The differences between playing a transcription v. playing an original part for an alien instrument are perhaps not important, but there are some: 1) The transcription presumably has been selected and massaged in favor of playability for at least the hornist. What comes out of this sausage machine might not resemble the original sound as closely as when the horn simply substitutes for X. 2) When we play an original part, we likely have to transpose. A stunning exception comes to mind - the original Beethoven trio op.87 for 2 oboes & English horn - the E.H.part, already in F, is even more monstrous than the 1st horn part in the transcription for three horns. There was a time in music history when 2 oboes and E.H. was a popular combination, so there is some music already in F for us. The others that I have seen are much more tame than the Beethoven trio. You can get this trio arranged for 3 clarinets at free-scores.com - careful - don't hurt yourself. Note that english horn literature is even more scarce than french horn literature. 3) To play an original part means that you take it upon yourself to muscle into someone else's territory without permission - as from the arranger whose name is printed on the transcription. This might seem trivial, but it isn't. Permission granted or not granted to behave in various musical ways flavors how musicians behave generally; it is a subtle thread that runs through much of what we discuss here, and it's the lead actor in this discussion. Part of what teachers do is grant and withhold permissions; a sign of musical maturity is when one begins to dish it out as well as take it. Of course, a crackpot can do that too, so sometimes it's hard to tell. David G ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
In spite of all that has been written on the subject, there is still no hard evidence that Mozart ever got around to arrangeing Entfuehrung for winds. Eric James - Original Message From: Richard V. West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:28:01 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions Jonathan: I'm not a musicologist, but I believe that the string quintet version of the C minor wind serenade was created subsequent to the original (wind) version we all know and love. Probably for the same reasons that Mozart tried to create wind versions of excerpts from his operas (I believe the only one thought to be by Mozart that still exists is from "The Abduction from the Seraglio") before they were pirated by others: money. Richard (also a West) in Seattle Jonathan West wrote: > snip>>...and the C minor Serenade for wind octet seems to have been recycled > more or less whole as one of his string quintets.<< ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/eric_d_james%40yahoo.com Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hand in Telemann
Should the hand be used? Most likely not, since most evidence points clearly in the way that the instruments were played without hand in the bell, arguably even well into the classical period. The dilemma is, that the real historical way of doing it properly is lipping the out of tune notes into place. Unfortunately there are only half a dozen, or less, players in the world who can (barely) lip the out of tune overtones to such a degree that a modern audience will accept them as more or less in tune. The rest of us will have to use tricks to get there. The two ways of achieving this are 1) the use of vent holes, which are most definitely a 20th century addition to the instrument, or 2) the use of some form of hand technique, a technique which /was/ being developed in that period but almost certainly not used in that kind of parts. Playing the overtones in their natural place is a nice experiment for brass players and hardcore early music freaks, but not something which will sell a lot of CD's or tickets. Most players I see, hear or work with in mainland Europe tend to go for the slightly less anachronistic option of use of hand technique. In the UK vent holes seem to be more popular. 2008/3/12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Sorry to hassle you with this one - > > A few days ago I posted a question about the use of the hand in music by > Handel, Telemann etc and didn't receceive a single response (which > is unusual) > > Just in case it didn't go through or in case I didn't receive any replies > that were sent, could I please re-send. > > Please accept my apologies if it's just that no-one has anything to say on > the subject. > > > __ > > > "In playing the music of Handel and Telemann on natural horn should hand > horn > technique be used or not? > > My understanding is that hand horn technique did not come in until later, > but I have seen/heard several performances of, for example, the Water > Music, > > where hand horn technique was clearly being used (should the hand be in > the > bell > at all in this period?)" > > Cheers, > > Lawrence > > lawrenceyates.co.uk > > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corbasse%2Bhrm%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
Jonathan: I'm not a musicologist, but I believe that the string quintet version of the C minor wind serenade was created subsequent to the original (wind) version we all know and love. Probably for the same reasons that Mozart tried to create wind versions of excerpts from his operas (I believe the only one thought to be by Mozart that still exists is from "The Abduction from the Seraglio") before they were pirated by others: money. Richard (also a West) in Seattle Jonathan West wrote: snip>>...and the C minor Serenade for wind octet seems to have been recycled more or less whole as one of his string quintets.<< ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
I've recently been listening to quite a bit of Beethoven and Mozart chamber music. It's amazing how many of their own tunes they recycled. Take a couple of examples in Mozart, the Theme & Variations from the Gran Partita serenade pops up with entirely different instrumentation as a movement of the Flute Quartet, and the C minor Serenade for wind octet seems to have been recycled more or less whole as one of his string quintets. Tunes from Beethoven's 2nd Symphony also got recycled in a chamber work. I figure that Beethoven and Mozart themselves re-arranged their works for radically different groups, then it is OK for others sensitively to attempt the same. At the moment I'm having a go at re-arranging the Brahms D major Serenade as a wind ensemble piece (2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 4 horns, 2 bassoons & a contra, the same ensemble as the Strauss Suite & Serenade). I think it will work very well. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Transcriptions
Transcriptions While agreeable that their are many wonderful pieces available for Horn taken in context they are written, music is meant to be played and enjoyed by all. As a musician we are part of a whole, but at the same time always seeking to gain new experiences. Transcriptions are not only a great opportunity to play music you might otherwise never get to experience, but also detrimental in education facilitation, and passing the love of music along to children at a younger age. Lets face it, many musicians may never go on to play with a major symphony, but they may connect to a Brahms piece later in life because they played a transcription in their high school band many moons ago. Great music is meant to be experienced! No disrespect meant to the many Professional Hornists on the list, but for those playing in a symphony it may be easy to cling to old standards, and as a musician I do agree that Brahms is best in its original context, but as a musician you also want to keep feeding the populous of listeners on down the line so that Symphonies do not become old and antiquated like so many forgotten music gems. Many former musician who have gone on to other job but may become life long patrons of the arts because of the things they experienced in youth and an appreciation they may not have had if they only experienced Sousa =) Am not trying to stir up a Sousa Debate I happen to love him in the most exhausting and tedious of ways. And lastly as a musician, and a fond listener. I recently had the opportunity to perform a great transcription in my Chamber Group, by means of Vern Reynolds transcription of Beethoven Kreutzer Sonata. It was both a pleasure and a challenge that I would not have experienced as a performer had not Vern Reynolds seen the possibility in A Violin Sonata with Piano Accompaniment and voiced it for a Chamber Ensemble. The piece was a challenge in a beautiful way, and served many purposes in my own enlightenment and enjoyment. For those interested in context we also performed Gounod Petite Symphonie on the same program, so it is not that we find no reward in music written explicitly for this type of ensemble. Maybe the greatest validation for transcriptions, is the enjoyment of those privileged enough to know the good ones, from the not so good ones, while being given the opportunity to play outside the box =) Or maybe its and age old argument that will continue to down play the endless possibilities that come from a life enriched by music. In the end this is just one humble opinion in the balance of many. Warm Regards, Jessica Sweeney anoter comeback player **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hand in Telemann
In a message dated 3/12/2008 4:02:31 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My understanding is that hand horn technique did not come in until later, but I have seen/heard several performances of, for example, the Water Music, where hand horn technique was clearly being used (should the hand be in the bell at all in this period?)" Cheers, Lawrence Hi Lawrence, I'm not qualified to give an answer to your question, however, there is some information on topic in the Fitzpatrick book "The Horn & Horn-Playing and the Austro-Bohemian Tradition 1680-1830". I believe it's out of print but a good library might have a copy or our friends at Paxman may have a loaner. Oxford University Press 1970 SBN 19 318703 5 Printed by W. & J. Mackay & Co. Ltd., Chatham Hope this helps. Best regards,Jerry in Kansas City **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
At 7:37 AM -0700 3/12/08, Eric James wrote: But do you happen to know where I can find the van Stumpen piece? It does sound intriguing. This fine work may be found at http://www.figmentpubs.com. Then again, maybe not. Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Transcriptions
Gary, Point well taken, although there's probably no woodwind quintet I'd like to play (brass quintet either, for that matter). But do you happen to know where I can find the van Stumpen piece? It does sound intriguing. Eric James - Original Message From: Gary Greene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Horn-List Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:10:27 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Transcriptions Don't look down *too* much on transcriptions. Remember that without playing transcriptions, orchestras would have no Ravel Pavane, no Mozart orchestration of Messiah, and no Debussy Children's Corner. Pianists would not have a boatload of Liszt. That isn't to say that we should not explore to find original literature for our instrument, but let's not be unnecessarily snobby about transcription playing either. Would you rather play Henry van Stumpen's original Triumphal March for Horn, Bass Clarinet and Tuba with an optional Contrabassoon and Occarina descant or a transcription of a Debussy Arabesque for woodwind quintet? Offered as food for thought. Gary Greene _ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/eric_d_james%40yahoo.com Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hand in Telemann
Hi Lawrence, I read your original post but was reluctant to answer because I'm by no means an expert on the subject, however, since no one else is weighing in, I will say what I can. Handel's music of that period is of a different nature than Telemann's in regard to use of the horn. Take or instance, a Handel Opera such as Alcina. Horn is only used for 3 movements. Wherein Bohemia, the horn was already an established musical instrument in the orchestra, In Handel's orchestra, it was still only a symbol of the hunt or a color. There were even comments from English musicians traveling to mainland Europe about never having seen a crooked horn before. So, in all likelihood, the horns in Handel's orchestra were the large looped pure hunting horns. These ARE handstoppable, but not as readily as the smaller coiled crooked instruments. Also, note that much of Handel's music for horn is of a call and response character, suggesting that the "natural horn intonation" was not to get in the way of the rest of the music. I would guess from all this that Handel's horn players were NOT hand stopping. I will not go as far to say that Handel SHOULD not be hand stopped in performance, though. That is a whole different debate. As far as Telemann goes, they were already using crooked instruments with the smaller coiling in this time and area (same with Bach) and although handstopping technique wasn't codified and written down till much later (Hampel) it does not take more than 10 minutes with one of these small natural horns to figure out that you can alter the intonation with your hand. It is not difficult to assume, therefore, that Telemann, Bach, and Heinichen's hornplayers were using some sort of hand stopping technique (if only to correct the F# and A). Heinichen even has some movements written in minor keys where it would be impossible for the horns to play without handstopping. That said, Telemann seems to use the horn much more within the harmonics than either Bach, or Heinichen. Questions, comments, smart remarks? Regards from New Jersey, Aleks Ozolins On Mar 12, 2008, at 5:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to hassle you with this one - A few days ago I posted a question about the use of the hand in music by Handel, Telemann etc and didn't receceive a single response (which is unusual) Just in case it didn't go through or in case I didn't receive any replies that were sent, could I please re-send. Please accept my apologies if it's just that no-one has anything to say on the subject. __ "In playing the music of Handel and Telemann on natural horn should hand horn technique be used or not? My understanding is that hand horn technique did not come in until later, but I have seen/heard several performances of, for example, the Water Music, where hand horn technique was clearly being used (should the hand be in the bell at all in this period?)" Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/aleks%40aleksozolins.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Transcriptions
Don't look down *too* much on transcriptions. Remember that without playing transcriptions, orchestras would have no Ravel Pavane, no Mozart orchestration of Messiah, and no Debussy Children's Corner. Pianists would not have a boatload of Liszt. That isn't to say that we should not explore to find original literature for our instrument, but let's not be unnecessarily snobby about transcription playing either. Would you rather play Henry van Stumpen's original Triumphal March for Horn, Bass Clarinet and Tuba with an optional Contrabassoon and Occarina descant or a transcription of a Debussy Arabesque for woodwind quintet? Offered as food for thought. Gary Greene _ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Wah-wahs
The learned Prof C wrote Even if your horn has a conical bore, just install an Amado key or two, and you won't have to worry about wah wah any more. to which Paxmaha, ever eager for knowledge, responded: Cabbage- do you know of any valve that will help when the player has to go wah-wah at an inappropriate time? * Thanks to the skills of my urologist, I no longer have to worry about this. Luckily, the procedure did not involve the installation of any Amado keys. Don't gotta go, Cabbage Yes, but what exactly did he install? Paxmaha Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hand in Telemann
Sorry to hassle you with this one - A few days ago I posted a question about the use of the hand in music by Handel, Telemann etc and didn't receceive a single response (which is unusual) Just in case it didn't go through or in case I didn't receive any replies that were sent, could I please re-send. Please accept my apologies if it's just that no-one has anything to say on the subject. __ "In playing the music of Handel and Telemann on natural horn should hand horn technique be used or not? My understanding is that hand horn technique did not come in until later, but I have seen/heard several performances of, for example, the Water Music, where hand horn technique was clearly being used (should the hand be in the bell at all in this period?)" Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
