AW: [Hornlist] Re: Confusing transposition
The best solution is it, to learn how to transpose and eartraining. To Steve Mumford: In Mozarts "Il Re pastore" the four horns of no.12 (the only number requiring 4 horns) are not all pitched differently, but pairwise in Eb & in C. All other numbers are for 2 horns only, but the pitch (crook) changes for each number except ouverture & no.1, and pitch remains the same (Eb) for the first pair for no.10 & no.12. No.11 has no horns. Horns were names "Primi" and "Secondi" on the orchestra roosters during late 18th & early 19th cent. But "secondi" was rather for the second pair than the low horns (evidence: orchestra roosters of the "Munich Hofopernorchester" (= Bavarian State Orchestra). and this lasted until the first years of Franz Strauss as a member. +++ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: horn-bounces+hans=pizka...@music.memphis.edu [mailto:horn-bounces+hans=pizka...@music.memphis.edu] Im Auftrag von Steven Mumford Gesendet: Samstag, 15. August 2009 22:25 An: horn@music.memphis.edu Betreff: [Hornlist] Re: Confusing transposition I remember playing Mozart's opera "Il Re Pastore" and it has 4 horns, each one crooked in a different key. We were using hand horns and it really did mess with my sense of where I was. It's easy to get kind of comfortable on hand horn with knowing what part of the chord you have just by looking, but on this opera there would be, say a written C, but it ends up being the 7th of the chord. Not terribly difficult, but it took a little extra attention! Maybe some kind of perfect pitch would have helped. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
AW: [Hornlist] Confusing transposition (double post)
Jonathan, there is an easy way to handle such problems (parts): LEARN HOW TO TRANSPOSE That is he ONLY way. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: horn-bounces+hans=pizka...@music.memphis.edu [mailto:horn-bounces+hans=pizka...@music.memphis.edu] Im Auftrag von Jonathan West Gesendet: Samstag, 15. August 2009 12:35 An: The Horn List Betreff: Re: [Hornlist] Confusing transposition (double post) 2009/8/14 wells123...@juno.com : > > Am I making any sense here? Have any of you had a similar experience? Is there a strategy I can employ to avoid that sort of disaster again? Hi Valerie This isn't an uncommon situation - the 2 pairs of horns quite often get crooked in different keys either so that they can cover more notes of the scale so that the 4 horns can play complex chord sequences between them, or so that the second pair can take over when the key modulates. Dvorak uses different crooks for both of these purposes in his 6th symphony. The first movement has horns 1 & 2 in D, and horns 3 & 4 in E; the second movement has horns 1 & 2 in F with 3 & 4 in Bb basso, 3rd movement 1 & 2 in F, 3 & 4 in D and 4th movement 1 & 2 in E and 3 & 4 in D. Also, if the piece is in a minor key, it is not uncommon for the horns to be crooked in something other than the keynote of the piece. I just played a concert last night on the Edinburgh Fringe which included the Mozart C minor Serenade. The horns were in Eb. As for dealing the confusion of not having the horn crooked in the home key of the piece, there's no really easy way of handling it. All you can do is make sure you do know what the key of the piece is and adjust your mind accordingly. The hardest time I have had with that is Brahms 3, which is in F but has the first two horns crooked in C throughout. Playing 1st for that was a bit unsettling initially until I worked out where I was relative to the key of the piece. I don't know which Mendelssohn piece you were playing but both the Scottish Symphony and the Overture Ruy Blas have the two pairs of horns crooked in different keys like this. The most extreme example that I know of where this happens is the Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, where if I recall correctly at one point all four horns are playing at the same time and each is crooked in a different key. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
AW: [Hornlist] Confusing transposition (double post)
Hello all, I need help too. I was in a city last spring, arriving by air, but I do not remember, where it was. Nor do I have any idea, what a continent it was. I remember, the regular gangway to the plane was not the same as on my home airport. It did not match the door height of the plane, but it matched for other planes. Very confusing, indeed. Any help is welcome, so I can find out, where I had landed this past spring. Well, stop joking now. If one cannot remember after three four months which piece he or she played, does not speak for the player. Was it an oratory by Mendelssohn ? - Well, not every piece is just a piece ! This is too simple. Mendelssohn & other contemporaries often used two differently pitched pair of horns, - natural horns - . The 2nd pair is pitched higher quite often, mainly in G or A. The 2n pair is for a "fourth" different than the 1st pair (ex.: first pair in E, 2nd pair in A = equally to F/Bb double horn). Why the 2nd pair higher ? The first pair (lower) has to play some "manipulated" pitches, while the 2nd & higher pair nearly avoids "manipulated" pitches & remains for the "open calls". So the 2nd pairs musical text remains quite simple, but delicate on modern double horns. A final question: is it really so difficult, remembering titles of certain music, if the title is written in a foreign language ? Or was it the "overwhelming impression" left by the conductor, which forced one to forget not only the conductors name, but also the title of the music ? + I apologize for double post this, but I really need help. What so knows? There may be someone here who can answer me that's not on the other list. I've hesitated to ask this question for a long time because I'm not sure I can find the words to adequately explain what I mean. Well, here goes: This past spring, I played a Mendelsohn piece. (Sorry, can't even remember which one, something for Easter.) I was on 3rd horn. The 1st and 2nd horn players were transposing to one horn key, but I was transposing to a completely different horn key, I think a fifth higher or lower than they were. Anyway, the tonic of their horn key corresponded with the tonic of the whole orchestra. So when the first & second horns played their written C, it was the tonic that matched what the whole orchestra played. But my tonic, my written C, was NOT the tonic of the rest of the orchestra. If I remember correctly my written C, was the dominate or the subdominate of the key the orchestra played. I wasn't very familiar with the piece, but before the rehearsal I wasn't really worried about it because it looked simple. I only played through it once or twice & showed up to the first rehearsal thinking I was prepared. I was shocked that I could hardly play 50% of the notes correctly. Nothing "felt" correct. In my mind, I wanted MY tonic written C to correspond with the tonic of the whole orchestra, but it didn't work that way. It was horribly confusing and I just couldn't play it correctly "on the fly," if you know what I mean. I had to go home & transpose it to horn in F to make it work. Am I making any sense here? Have any of you had a similar experience? Is there a strategy I can employ to avoid that sort of disaster again? Valerie Wells "The Balanced Embouchure" for French Horn wells123...@juno.com Click here for great quotes from top international movers! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsKdC5g7GHOsL2d8kftuBZeAfnR 5Rq1BAvBta773iWkZocDhhGUFKg/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Corrections to Strauss 2
The last eight before 36 in the last movement of the Strauss No.2 is indeed misprinted. The "natural" after the written d# (2nd eight in the same measure= concert f#, as the part is in Eb) is missing, but we all played the right note at the end of the measure (last eight notated as d2 = f concert). I´ll have a look into the autograph score later today & let you know about). Bozza´s "En foret", well many of us play the low "A" (concert d) as mentioned by Christopher, even it is written as one octave higher (the "a" below staff = concert "d"). Most just wanted to demonstrate, that they can play a low "A". But musically, the "a", as written by the composer is much better. He did not use the low "A", nor did he want it. And, is it really a tour de force ? It might be a tour the force for players, who have not yet developed their personal playing technique & embouchure to play this short but obviously demanding piece. x It is now later in the day & I had a look into the piano reduction, Gottfried von Freiberg, my teacher, arranged using the autograph. This arrangement is handwritten & was arranged before the Boosey & Hawkes publication. Voila, there is the natural for the last eight in the measure before the study number 36. The study numbers are by Strauss himself. The solo part is missing the natural, but von Freiberg played the written d & not a d#. And we learned the Concert, using the Boosey publication, but played it with the natural even I never inserted it into my part. The d# would be most unnatural. Just as a reminder, I inserted the natural today. Do we (my generation) or better, did we have a better feeling for such errors or eliminating such errors automatically ? I eventually corrected an error in my part for Ariadne auf Naxos, not only here in Munich, where the second premiere took place, but also in Vienna, when I played there as a guest and they had premiered the opera there, and at other opera houses. Thanks to Christopher Griffin for pointing to that stuff. Here are the missing tempo adv. In the B&H publication: 1st mov.: M7: missing frei (ad lib.), [1] missing a tempo, 5 meas. after [7] missing rit. t the 3rd beat, 2 meas. after [9] should read poco meno not rit., 4 measures before [14] breiter (piu largo) is missing, two meas. before [18] missing rall. upon the 3rd beat, one measure before [18] missing a tempo upon the last beat. 2nd mov.: four measures before [24] missing "draengen" (drag). 3rd mov.: seven before [35] missing "ruhiger" (meno mosso), one before [35] missing "viel ruhiger" (molto meno mosso), five meas. past [39] missing "calando", ten meas. past [39] missing "tempo primo", eleven meas. past [46] missing "calando", four meas. before [47] missing "accel.", [47] missing "tempo primo", [50] missing "draengen" (drag). That´s all on tempo corrections, when comparing the first performance solo part and the first piano reduction (by Freiberg) with the 1950 Boosey & Hawkes publication. But will these corrections help much, as we live in a time, when "speed" and "show off with technique" seems to be all, when musicianship is missed much ? When "singing the horn" seems to be outdated ? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
AW: [Hornlist] Strauss 2 and En Foret
The last eight before 36 in the last movement of the Strauss No.2 is indeed misprinted. The "natural" after the written d# (2nd eight in the same measure= concert f#, as the part is in Eb) is missing, but we all played the right note at the end of the measure (last eight notated as d2 = f concert). I´ll have a look into the autograph score later today & let you know about). Bozza´s "En foret", well many of us play the low "A" (concert d) as mentioned by Christopher, even it is written as one octave higher (the "a" below staff = concert "d"). Most just wanted to demonstrate, that they can play a low "A". But musically, the "a", as written by the composer is much better. He did not use the low "A", nor did he want it. And, is it really a tour de force ? It might be a tour the force for players, who have not yet developed their personal playing technique & embouchure to play this short but obviously demanding piece. + Von: horn-bounces+hans=pizka...@music.memphis.edu [mailto:horn-bounces+hans=pizka...@music.memphis.edu] Im Auftrag von christopher Griffin Gesendet: Sonntag, 9. August 2009 15:03dyAn: hornmailing list Betreff: [Hornlist] Strauss 2 and En Foret Hi guys! This might be opening a can of worms but does anyone know of any misprints in Strauss 2 (Boosey & Hawkes) and the Bozza En Foret (Alphonse Leduc)? I especially wanted to know about the last eighth note of the bar before 36 in the last movement of the Strauss. I'm sure it must go back to an F concert but it is printed as an F-sharp concert in both the score and the horn part. The F-sharp works in a weird kind of way. I'm also wondering what people think about going down to a low A in the second "horn call" near the end of the Bozza. It is printed as the A just below middle C. Some go down to the low A. I'm curious why, in such a tour de force, that Bozza would have written the low A anyway. Thanks in advance! C Griffin _ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391: :T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Recording (NHR)
I'm attaching a copy of the label from my disc. You can see the TransRadio logo
at the top and TR740A at the left.
I left TransRadio soon after I recorded this disc, moving to Ann Arbor (Mich)
to work on my master's in music lit and work for the University's radio
station, WUOM, as a studio engineer. Because of the success of this recording,
I know that Lehrer had further pressings made. If the contents are the same as
I've listed below, the new pressing were probably made from the tape we
produced. If different titles are on anyone's disc, this probably indicates
either that Lehrer inserted the new ones into the old tape, or more likely, may
have made completely new recordings.
The jacket for my LP has the same note for buying copies of the record as does
yours. And the cover is the same as th one described by Richard West: ". . . I
was introduced to the Tom Lehrer by my local record shop owner ("the ol' drug
dealer..".). It was the 10" LP. As I remember, the cover was mostly red, with a
scratchy pen and ink drawing of someone I took to be Tom Lehrer, adorned with
devil's horns and a tail, at a rather surrealistic piano."
I hope this clarifies some of the questions that have been raised; possibly
some of the members of our list can provide answers.
Ed
-Original Message-
From: horn-bounces+glick=unt@music.memphis.edu
[mailto:horn-bounces+glick=unt@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Gross
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:18 AM
To: 'The Horn List'
Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Recording (NHR)
Just back from the subvault under Jack Benny's the recoding I have is a 10"
LP. The jacket has no indication of who released it. There is a note that
reads, "Copies of this record are available at many record stores, or, at
$3.95 each plus 50 cents for mailing, from Tom Lehrer, Box 121, Cambridge
38, Massachusetts."
The LP lable only says "Leher Records" and what appears to be a catalog
number in small print.
-Original Message-
From: horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu
[mailto:horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of
Glick, Ed
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 9:32 PM
To: The Horn List
Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Recording (NHR)
I don't recall "Boulder, Boulder". but I think it's possible that he made
another recording at a later date. The recording I made was in 1953. The 10"
LP (remember those? Only if you're really old!) has the TransRadio (the name
of our studio) label on it and the songs are copyrighted 1952, 1953. The
songs on Side 1 are: "Fight Fiercely, Harvard," "The Old Dope Peddler," "Be
Prepared," "The Wild West," "I Wanna Go Back to Dixie, "Lobachevsky." On
Side 2 were "The Irish Ballad,""The Hunting Song," "My Home Town," "When You
Are Old and Gray," "I Hold Your Hand in Mine," and the Wiener Schnitzel
Waltz."
As I said, I don't remember anything with "Boulder, Boulder" in it. I'll
listen to the disc again to check, but I believe it must have been on a
later [commercial] recording that duplicated some of the songs from the
original disc. We cut a master from the tape I made and Lehrer sold those
records himself. (His address was printed on the back of the album cover.)
Of all the songs on the disc (all original), "Lobachevsky" was the one that
really didn't fit in with the style of the others. I was told that Lehrer,
who was a teaching fellow in Math at Harvard at the time, composed and
recorded the song to appeal to fellow mathematicians and believed he could
sell a few more to them with this song. (Lobachevsky was a famous
mathematician known to all in that field - I think)
I remember that during the heyday of "That Was the Week that Was" on tv,
Lehrer had a regularly recurring spot on the program. I don't know how long
that lasted.
Ed Glick
P.S. I thought I would be smart and googled "Lobachevsky, hoping to find out
something about Lobachevsky. I quit after finding 20 pages just of Lehrer's
"Lobachevsky" song. There were many more.
-Original Message-
From: horn-bounces+glick=unt@music.memphis.edu
[mailto:horn-bounces+glick=unt@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of Bill
Gross
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: 'The Horn List'
Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Recording
Me too, I still have the copy my father bought. I can't remember the lead
it, but side one ends with him saying "Mighty, mighty, Boulder Boulder. . .
" you flip it over and the first word on side 2 is "dam." At that time,
late 50s early 60s that was pushing the limits.
". . . Do not shade your eyes, but plagiarize. . . and who deserves the
credit, who deserve the fame? Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky was name."
-Original Message-
From: horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu
[mailto:horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of
Richard V. West
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 5:21 PM
To: The Horn List
Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Recording
Hey, I'm impressed! In my youth (just a few years younger th
Re: [Hornlist] Confusing transposition (double post)
That's the best reason I can think of. On Aug 16, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Dan Phillips wrote: On Aug 16, 2009, at 6:35 AM, William.S.Gross wrote: Well it looks like our recent migration has not solved the problem of software incombatability. Mainly because the migration hasn't happened yet Dan Phillips Associate Professor Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music University of Memphis d...@music.memphis.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Confusing transposition (double post)
On Aug 16, 2009, at 6:35 AM, William.S.Gross wrote: Well it looks like our recent migration has not solved the problem of software incombatability. Mainly because the migration hasn't happened yet Dan Phillips Associate Professor Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music University of Memphis d...@music.memphis.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Confusing transposition (double post)
Well it looks like our recent migration has not solved the problem of software incombatability. On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:56 AM, "hans.pi...@t-online.de" > wrote: ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/william.s.gross%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
