I sincerely appreciate all those who took the time to share their opinions,
ideas & experience with me a come back player who took a 34 year hiatus.
I originally asked if it would be advisable to buy a used Holton 178 that
has frozen valves & slides for $1500. Here are the private responses I
received in no particular order. If I've left out anyone's response, I
apologize, it wasn't intention. Sometimes things just slip through the
cracks. Since I received these responses in private email, I've w/h names.
[My comments in brackets.]
Valerie
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Yes, if one of you knows a good repair person that can get it back to
working order. If it was owned by a professional, it was probably a pretty
good horn, and $1500 would be a decent price.
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Respondant: I've been playing a 178 (among other horns) for over 40 years.
Is there anything specific you need to know?
Val: I've been playing on a silver H-179. It's very heavy & the bell
really large for a small gal like me. I can't do stopped horn in that large
bell & frankly, I have trouble filling this horn with air. I'm looking for
a lighter horn with a smaller bell. I've been told (and read) that a yellow
brass 178 fits this description, at least for the smaller bell size. I've
found a used one with frozen valves & slides for $1500 & am not sure I want
to risk it. From what I heard about this horn is, that the owner only
played it professionally for a few years, layed it aside & hasn't touched it
in about 7 years. (She's retired.) What do you think? I've never bought a
used horn before and I'm kinda nervous. Also, if your Holton 178 is yellow
brass, would you be able to tell me how much it weighs? My Holton 179 is
over six pounds which is VERY heavy for me. I've tried playing a yellow
brass Holton 104 which is slightly less than 5 pounds & it makes a big
difference to me. I've only been playing as a come back horn player for 15
months & don't see the need to buy an expensive horn such at this point.
I'm hoping to find something for less than $3K. Another question. Are you
in the USA, Europe or UK? It seems that most 178's I've seen on the
interenet are from UK sources. I'm in the USA.
Respondant: Yes, the 179/Conn 8d size bell is much larger in the throat area
than the 177/178 Holtons. As far as filling the horn, they are basically the
same bore size through the valves and only diverge in the bell branch (the
tubing after the valves leading to the bell tail). I personally don't notice
that much difference in air requirements, but that probably has as much to
do with the mouthpiece as anything. If the horn you are looking at is in
decent shape, $1500 is probably a fair price. I prefer the older models
(they would be cheaper, but require valve work). Have you checked the serial
number and year of manufacture?? I'm from Chicago (but spend more time in
Phoenix now than in Illinois), and Chicago is a "small" bell town, primarily
because Carl Geyer worked there and his horns were all small bell horns, so
I prefer the more compact sound and get better projection with the small
bell. Weight is lighter, but maybe not as much as you would hope (I don't
have a scale but always assumed they were about 5 1/2 lbs). I have a Holton
281 that is a LOT heavier than the 178s, but I don't know how the 281
compares to the 179 so that may not provide any point of reference. I hope
I've been some help. It would really be beneficial if you could play one
before you have to commit.
---------------
A competent brass tech. could free the slides in just a few minutes, and my
Holton valves freeze up if the horn sits for more than a few weeks. A lot of
oil down the tubing and gentle turning of the valve rotors (by hand, from
the bottom of the horn -- not by using the levers!!!) will loosen things up
right away. ...
If weight is that much of a concern, have you ever tried a compensating
double? I have a great yellow brass comp. double (HF Knopf) that plays as
well as a full double and only weighs about 4 lbs. Comps get a bad rap here
in the US because of all the cheap Italian imports sold in the '50s and
'60s, but the Alexander and Knopf comps are every bit a pro horn as their
other models, and are widely used professionally in Europe.
[I've played on a Hans Hoyer compensating double. The tone was magnificent,
response pretty good, but it had a few weak notes in the lower octave.]
My recommendation, if you will allow me to make one, is to have the Holton
shipped to someone like Chuck Ward (Chardon OH, just east of Cleveland) and
pay him the $100 or so (possibly less if I know Chuck) to have him get
everything working properly, and then have him ship the horn to you. That
cost plus the shipping charges is, to me anyway, a small price to pay to be
able to really evaluate the horn. If you don't like it, maybe this person
would reinburse you part of the cost because the horn will now be in a
condition where it would be easy to sell (ie Ebay) for a realistic price,
and not a gieaway price for a "fixer-upper." Depending on where you live, I
can probably suggest repair guys closer to you if Chuck seems too far away,
and I wouldn't suggest anyone that I wouldn't let work on one of mine.
---------------------
offer much less, like $700.00 maybe even $500.00. I sure wouldn't pay $1500
for that used horn. If you can get for less than half, then send it to
Osmuns. They can fix anything. It would be a good horn after Bob Osmun's
people get thru with it.
----------------------
When you posted your query about a Holton 178 the other day, I started to
write you about my experiences then was distracted and never got back to it.
I received a 178 in 1970 as a Christmas present from my parents, though I
actually didn't have the horn in hand until March or April as I recall
because it had been special ordered as it was a screwbell model and that
wasn't a regular part of the production line-they only did them to order.
One drawback on that particular horn as it was one of the earliest American
made factory horns to be made with a detachable bell was that the lead pipe
was made in two parts so that the final 6 or so inches could be removed so
that the horn would fit in the case. Several years later, I redid the inside
of the case and changed the leadpipe and it actually resolved another of the
horn's issues, that is playing very sharp (not unlike the Yamaha 667) due to
the leadpipe being too short. Other than that, it was a great horn and I
wish I still had it.
As to the horn in question-I think the seller is asking way too much
considering the issues you mentioned. Freeing slides and valves isn't that
big of a deal to a competent repairman but it does tell a good deal about
the type of maintenance the horn received. In all probability, the valves
are going to need some major work, maybe even a complete rebuild which will
run you about $750 in most of the horn shops. Also, who knows what other
problems the horn may have that are hidden by the fact that it is basically
unplayable right now. Another problem may be that the mouthpipe (leadpipe)
has redrot which is the dezincification of the brass and will need to be
replaced-another expensive proposition.
If you're able to, take it to a horn repair specialist who can evaluate the
horn on its own merits, something that's impossible to do on the internet.
My guess is that most if not all respondents to your question are going to
say run, don't walk, away from this deal unless you can get the horn for
about $750 or unless it passes inspection by a good repair shop.
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