RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Apropos of nothing other than the strange coincidence. A gentleman who I attended college with back in the dream time sent this to me today. I thought to share it, not because it is tremendous humor, just because it was a coincident that while a discussion continued here on conductors good and not so good this particular e-mail would arrive. Q: What do you do with a horn player that can't play? A: Give him two sticks, put him in the back, and call him a percussionist. Q: What do you do if he can't do that? A: Take away one of the sticks, put him up front, and call him a conductor. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
-Original Message- From: Billbamberg To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:20:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously If there's a probability you might need a cue, ask the conductor for one. Part of your responsibility is to point out the potential problem, then give him a chance to come up with a mutually acceptable solution. Don't count on it happening, however, because, after all, he's only a conductor. If it turns out you need it, and get it, fine. If for some reason, everything fails, you can have a civil conversation about how to do it better next time. The time to set the plan should allow one run through, with eye contact, for comfort. Why is it that most people have far greater wisdom assessing blame than they do for recognizing responsibility. Responsibility is completely under your own control, and represents your best chance for success. It has nothing to do with amateur or professional, or enforcable rules. Your integrity is your own gift to yourself, whether you like it or not. -Original Message- From: James Ray Crenshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:06:40 -0400 Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously > Really, friends in the amateur field, I do not understand > your counting problems. Dont you look to the conductor at > all ? Herr Professor, Surely, even in your position, you are--at least occasionally--as surprised as we are at what passes for "a conductor" these days. The last couple of gigs I've played, the only way I could make it through was to IGNORE the conductor and follow the 1st trumpet and percussion. I asked afterward, and they were ignoring him too, hence the musical clarity on their part. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Guess what - Lawrence has forgotten what bar he's in again, I've seen this happen a few times, usually just after he's forgotten who's round it is!! Does anyone know what bar we are up to in that organ piece that supposedly will take a hundred years or so to play that someone started playing a few years ago? (not that I'm really interested). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
If there's a probability you might need a cue, ask the conductor for one. Part of your responsibility is to point out the potential problem, then give him a chance to come up with a mutually acceptable solution. Don't count on it happening, however, because, after all, he's only a conductor. If it turns out you need it, and get it, fine. If for some reason, everything fails, you can have a civil conversation about how to do it better next time. The time to set the plan should allow one run through, with eye contact, for comfort. Why is it that most people have far greater wisdom assessing blame than they do for recognizing responsibility. Responsibility is completely under your own control, and represents your best chance for success. It has nothing to do with amateur or professional, or enforcable rules. Your integrity is your own gift to yourself, whether you like it or not. -Original Message- From: James Ray Crenshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:06:40 -0400 Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously > Really, friends in the amateur field, I do not understand > your counting problems. Dont you look to the conductor at > all ? Herr Professor, Surely, even in your position, you are--at least occasionally--as surprised as we are at what passes for "a conductor" these days. The last couple of gigs I've played, the only way I could make it through was to IGNORE the conductor and follow the 1st trumpet and percussion. I asked afterward, and they were ignoring him too, hence the musical clarity on their part. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Sound quite familiar, your second story. Cheers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Kampen Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:55 PM To: The Horn List Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously Message text written by The Horn List >The last couple of gigs I've played, the only way I could make it through was to IGNORE the conductor and follow the 1st trumpet and percussion.< Dear All Hmmm. This reminds me of a time when I was playing as an extra with one of Britain's leading orchestras in a Bruckner Symphony. The first half of the programme comprised the Schumann Piano Concerto and the orchestra's 2nd horn asked me if I would like to play it to give him a 'tune off'. One concert was in the Royal Festival Hall in London with a very well known conductor and one of the world's really great pianists (initials AB). In the famous rhythmic trap in the third movement, the first horn got so annoyed with the conductor that, on the concert and in front of 2,000+ people, he deliberately raised his music stand as high as possible to block out all view of the maestro. Mind you, there was an old story going around a few years ago about a violinist who accepted an engagement as guest leader (concertmaster) for a theatre production when the usual leader had a better gig one night. The conductor entered the pit, bowed to acknowledge the audience's applause, turned to face the orchestra with arms and baton raised. And he just stood there motionless whilst the leader, bowing arm prepared, watched for a downbeat which never came. The conductor glanced sideways with a pleading look on his face at the leader and, when this got no reaction, he hissed "go on then - start!" It appeared that he had great trouble setting the show in motion and had an arrangement with his usual leader that the orchestra would follow the front desk of 1st violins - not the stick - to get going. The usual leader had 'forgotten' to brief his dep about this. Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
But amateurs never can experience (or very rarely) the feeling we get on stage, playing a great work under the baton of a competent real conductor star as Muti or late Kleiber, von Karajan, Solti etc. This is a very special feeling. And they were sometimes crazy but never tyrrants. Most of them were really nice persons. Oh, if a tyrranic conductor like to play out his power, we let him run into a deep black hole of no resonance, bottomless passive resistence. He has no chance. Every entrance comes exactly as written, no broken note, but emotionless, no feeling at all. He will understand the message or not. It does not make any difference. It does not bother. But if he gets nasty, give him shit by playing exactly as he conducts, say yes to everything, but never "repair" mistakes he committed. Let the ship run into the ground. It will kill him eventually. But it is not your fault. But be careful: just laugh INSIDE. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 2:10 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously Not so. In fact, the opposite is true. It is in the pro music ranks that you have to put up with incompetence & tyranny from the podium, because quitting under those circumstances means giving up your paycheck. While the tyranical incompetent waving the stick warns you not to let the door smack you in the rump on your way out, a boatload of highly qualified conservatory graduates line up clear around the block waiting for their turn at the auditions held to pick your replacement. The amateurs & dilettantes, however, being economically independent of their positions in the ensemble, can just up & quit any time there's a tyrannical incompetent up front -- or any other kind of incompetent up there, or any other kind of tyrant for that matter. The amateurs & dilettantes sit there & play the tunes (& count the measures) because they want to, not because they've got to -- the best of both worlds, no? -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~~ I can imagine, how the many good hobby-musicians suffer under more or less tyrranic but incompetent "rulers". -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Not so. In fact, the opposite is true. It is in the pro music ranks that you have to put up with incompetence & tyranny from the podium, because quitting under those circumstances means giving up your paycheck. While the tyranical incompetent waving the stick warns you not to let the door smack you in the rump on your way out, a boatload of highly qualified conservatory graduates line up clear around the block waiting for their turn at the auditions held to pick your replacement. The amateurs & dilettantes, however, being economically independent of their positions in the ensemble, can just up & quit any time there's a tyrannical incompetent up front -- or any other kind of incompetent up there, or any other kind of tyrant for that matter. The amateurs & dilettantes sit there & play the tunes (& count the measures) because they want to, not because they've got to -- the best of both worlds, no? -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~~ I can imagine, how the many good hobby-musicians suffer under more or less tyrranic but incompetent "rulers". -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Better, not even IGNORE them, give them even less attention. Fortunately, we have good, often very good conductors of international high class, but also some very poor but harmless music-masters from GB. But this period will arrive at ist end, when our British opera director will leave after the next season. Yes, there is also a very, very boring ballet kapellmeister. But in the amateur field, I can imagine, how the many good hobby-musicians suffer under more or less tyrranic but incompetent "rulers". === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Ray Crenshaw Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:07 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously > Really, friends in the amateur field, I do not understand your > counting problems. Dont you look to the conductor at all ? Herr Professor, Surely, even in your position, you are--at least occasionally--as surprised as we are at what passes for "a conductor" these days. The last couple of gigs I've played, the only way I could make it through was to IGNORE the conductor and follow the 1st trumpet and percussion. I asked afterward, and they were ignoring him too, hence the musical clarity on their part. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Does anyone know what bar we are up to in that organ piece that supposedly will take a hundred years or so to play that someone started playing a few years ago? (not that I'm really interested). All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg" http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
I stand corrected. Thank you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lautbar Blaehung Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 11:27 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously Bill Gross wrote: >Doing it for free all bets are off. "Shop Rules? We ain't got no rules. >We don't need no stinkin' shop rules." With apologies to B. Tavern. > Although there may B a Tavern in the town, it is B. Traven to whom you should apologize. L Blaehung _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Doing it for free all bets are off. "Shop Rules? We ain't got no rules. We don't need no stinkin' shop rules." With apologies to B. Tavern. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 2:33 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously Sorry my error in the logic. I had thought you had the rules of honour or ambition at least. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:18 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously Ah, but that's the hole in your logic. For the amateurs here in, there are not work rules because there is no pay, no pay no unions, no labor rules. A designated counter just might be the solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 1:13 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously [. . .] Really, friends in the amateur field, I do not understand your counting problems. Dont you look to the conductor at all ? Dont you ask him to give you a cue - "just for security" (a wonderful little lie). [. . .] Cabbage had a good point. Taking off the shoes will free the toes to take part in counting. Sandals would work also. Or hire a "counter person", oops, does not work because of space in the pit or on stage & because of labour rules. -Original Message- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Sorry my error in the logic. I had thought you had the rules of honour or ambition at least. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:18 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously Ah, but that's the hole in your logic. For the amateurs here in, there are not work rules because there is no pay, no pay no unions, no labor rules. A designated counter just might be the solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 1:13 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously [. . .] Really, friends in the amateur field, I do not understand your counting problems. Dont you look to the conductor at all ? Dont you ask him to give you a cue - "just for security" (a wonderful little lie). [. . .] Cabbage had a good point. Taking off the shoes will free the toes to take part in counting. Sandals would work also. Or hire a "counter person", oops, does not work because of space in the pit or on stage & because of labour rules. -Original Message- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously
Ah, but that's the hole in your logic. For the amateurs here in, there are not work rules because there is no pay, no pay no unions, no labor rules. A designated counter just might be the solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 1:13 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Counting Rank Measures but seriously [. . .] Really, friends in the amateur field, I do not understand your counting problems. Dont you look to the conductor at all ? Dont you ask him to give you a cue - "just for security" (a wonderful little lie). [. . .] Cabbage had a good point. Taking off the shoes will free the toes to take part in counting. Sandals would work also. Or hire a "counter person", oops, does not work because of space in the pit or on stage & because of labour rules. -Original Message- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
