RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music
David and Hans, thank you for the explanations clarifications. -Original Message- From: Hans.Pizka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music >From many letters by Mozart himself & by his father Leopold we know that both were perfectionist, who would never have allowed players of their (Mozarts) works to spoil these by their own too often mediocre additions. Yes, it has been usual, that the pianists played along with the orchestra, but not with Mozartian pieces. Yes, they flourishes (boring) passages by ornamentations, turns (mordent) etc., but also not for Mozartian pieces, where it would destroy the strong stylish demand. The Mozartian pieces as well as later Schuberts compositions are unique in their simplicity , clarity, transparency & perfection and do not need ANY embellishment. If one thinks, they would be bettered up - may it be Dr.Levin, perhaps or another so called Mozartologue - , they have not understood Mozart nor the world where he or Schubert lived nor the character of the people there. Mozart says everything in perfection & very simple (= in this content simple means CLEAN, in German words: "rein" ), Schubert did the same. So they became the great composers. Any addition would just be cheap & mediocre, as most players who need these additions to make their playing more interesting or interesting at all (in their own opinion !!). Cadenzas, that´s a different thing. Surely, Mozart built in some "cadenza points", also in the horn concertos, besides the usual first movement cadenza, so to see the final rondos in his three completed horn concertos. Surely, there is space for a short , very short cadenza of just a few measures. But what do we get to listen to, special during auditions ? Players telling long more or less known excerpts from other cadenzas in a most lengthy story, often mixed with complete out of style elements & mixed with wrong harmonic elements. And they play it in a stupid show off manner not verse the culminating final trill, but until the middle of the lengthy uninteresting & often caricaturesque cadenza, where they get coordinating or breathing problems, which results in a terrible uninteresting finale of the cadenza. If there are composers not to be touched or altered by no ways, then they are Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven & R.Wagner. Bach & Haendel are different, as they left some embellishment & other ornamentations to the experience of the players often. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 3:19 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music To help me understand performance during Mozart period, the first question is about this part of the review of the Mozart piano concerto. 07:09 AM CST on Friday, March 17, 2006 By OLIN CHISM / Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News [. . .] The most radical move toward Mozart's day is Mr. Levin's. He gives the DSO more notes for its money, often playing along during orchestral tuttis whereas most pianists sit them out, throwing in some little flourishes and improvising the cadenzas. All this is documented from the old days. [. . .] If I understand Mr. Chism correctly, this improvisation by the pianist was not unusual during Mozart age. From Hans answer to my original question, this improvisation (if that is the proper term) was not the accepted practice for horn players. Do these two statements accurately reflect the way music was performed in this period? If those statements are correct, why would one instrument play exactly as the composer desired and the other improvised during a performance? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music
>From many letters by Mozart himself & by his father Leopold we know that both were perfectionist, who would never have allowed players of their (Mozarts) works to spoil these by their own too often mediocre additions. Yes, it has been usual, that the pianists played along with the orchestra, but not with Mozartian pieces. Yes, they flourishes (boring) passages by ornamentations, turns (mordent) etc., but also not for Mozartian pieces, where it would destroy the strong stylish demand. The Mozartian pieces as well as later Schuberts compositions are unique in their simplicity , clarity, transparency & perfection and do not need ANY embellishment. If one thinks, they would be bettered up - may it be Dr.Levin, perhaps or another so called Mozartologue - , they have not understood Mozart nor the world where he or Schubert lived nor the character of the people there. Mozart says everything in perfection & very simple (= in this content simple means CLEAN, in German words: "rein" ), Schubert did the same. So they became the great composers. Any addition would just be cheap & mediocre, as most players who need these additions to make their playing more interesting or interesting at all (in their own opinion !!). Cadenzas, that´s a different thing. Surely, Mozart built in some "cadenza points", also in the horn concertos, besides the usual first movement cadenza, so to see the final rondos in his three completed horn concertos. Surely, there is space for a short , very short cadenza of just a few measures. But what do we get to listen to, special during auditions ? Players telling long more or less known excerpts from other cadenzas in a most lengthy story, often mixed with complete out of style elements & mixed with wrong harmonic elements. And they play it in a stupid show off manner not verse the culminating final trill, but until the middle of the lengthy uninteresting & often caricaturesque cadenza, where they get coordinating or breathing problems, which results in a terrible uninteresting finale of the cadenza. If there are composers not to be touched or altered by no ways, then they are Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven & R.Wagner. Bach & Haendel are different, as they left some embellishment & other ornamentations to the experience of the players often. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 3:19 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music To help me understand performance during Mozart period, the first question is about this part of the review of the Mozart piano concerto. 07:09 AM CST on Friday, March 17, 2006 By OLIN CHISM / Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News [. . .] The most radical move toward Mozart's day is Mr. Levin's. He gives the DSO more notes for its money, often playing along during orchestral tuttis whereas most pianists sit them out, throwing in some little flourishes and improvising the cadenzas. All this is documented from the old days. [. . .] If I understand Mr. Chism correctly, this improvisation by the pianist was not unusual during Mozart age. From Hans answer to my original question, this improvisation (if that is the proper term) was not the accepted practice for horn players. Do these two statements accurately reflect the way music was performed in this period? If those statements are correct, why would one instrument play exactly as the composer desired and the other improvised during a performance? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music
Essentially the question boils down to the nature of each instrument - the piano, then as now was the preeminent concerto instrument beside the violin. Given the mechanical ability of the piano to play chromatically with no alteration in timbre, and the horn's inability to do the same without stopping, one can see that the horn soloist has a much more difficult time in ornamenting the music greatly, whereas the pianist can go whizbang all over the keyboard. Having said that, the true test of one's musicality was still how tastefully one decorated and changed the basic melody, not how bombastic one could get. In regard to Herr Pizka's remarks, it is historically correct performance practice to mess around with the piano concertos, the master himself said so many times in his personal correspondence. I agree that the horn concertos, except for cadenzas and the occassional little interpretive mordent or grace note, should be played the way the man wrote them. paxmaha Bill Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: To help me understand performance during Mozart period, the first question is about this part of the review of the Mozart piano concerto. 07:09 AM CST on Friday, March 17, 2006 By OLIN CHISM / Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News [. . .] The most radical move toward Mozart's day is Mr. Levin's. He gives the DSO more notes for its money, often playing along during orchestral tuttis whereas most pianists sit them out, throwing in some little flourishes and improvising the cadenzas. All this is documented from the old days. [. . .] If I understand Mr. Chism correctly, this improvisation by the pianist was not unusual during Mozart age. From Hans answer to my original question, this improvisation (if that is the proper term) was not the accepted practice for horn players. Do these two statements accurately reflect the way music was performed in this period? If those statements are correct, why would one instrument play exactly as the composer desired and the other improvised during a performance? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com - Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music
To help me understand performance during Mozart period, the first question is about this part of the review of the Mozart piano concerto. 07:09 AM CST on Friday, March 17, 2006 By OLIN CHISM / Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News [. . .] The most radical move toward Mozart's day is Mr. Levin's. He gives the DSO more notes for its money, often playing along during orchestral tuttis whereas most pianists sit them out, throwing in some little flourishes and improvising the cadenzas. All this is documented from the old days. [. . .] If I understand Mr. Chism correctly, this improvisation by the pianist was not unusual during Mozart age. From Hans answer to my original question, this improvisation (if that is the proper term) was not the accepted practice for horn players. Do these two statements accurately reflect the way music was performed in this period? If those statements are correct, why would one instrument play exactly as the composer desired and the other improvised during a performance? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music
What a funny question: Mozart wrote complete scores of three concertos & several nearly completed separate movements for horn & orchestra. Mozart was an absolute perfectionist. Why would should have alloweed anybody to add his own ideas to his (Mozarts) compositions ?? No way. The writer probably mixed up things & meant "Cadenzas" perhaps. Well, with the hornconcertos was one minor difference: he did not insert all the legatos or staccatos or the broken slures (four sixteenths as two slurred & two tongued), as he could trust the players, that they know the style so well, that they could adapt runs or leaps to their own abilities. This did not change the music at all, as most of the players followed the string text anyway. But today even flydroppings in an autograph score are be seen as "Gods Words", as style knowledge & common musical sense seem to disappear. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:42 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Mozart and His Music The local paper music critic commenting on a Dallas Symphony performance of a Mozart Piano Concerto noted that Mozart considered the notes he put on paper the basic form and the pianist was free to improvise around that form. If the guy has it right, did this apply to the horn concertos as well? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
