Re: [Hornlist] Re: New Horn Maintenance
In a message dated 3/7/2004 1:53:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Sorry, > But how can you tell if the horn has "factory dust" > left in? Are there > tell tale sings I would notice or something? No manufacturer could possibly survive sending out a significant number of instruments that are going to require factory warrantee service, or be obviously degraded, just from being played. I don't have specific first hand knowledge of particular manufacturers, but I can make pretty good guesses from having set up many similar manufacturing operations. Cleaning out lapping residue is a difficult shop operation. All this work would be completed before the horn is assembled. Since the parts are all the same, specific tools and procedures would be scrupulously developed and used, followed by rigid inspection. Likewise, contamination from assembly soldering would be closely controlled. The one place where problems could slip through would be in rework of finished instruments that don't pass final assembly. Rework of a sticky valve or leaky solder joint would undoubtedly contaminate the instrument and require re cleaning outside of the normal procedure. This is much harder to control because it falls outside standard procedure, and requires operator intelligence and diligence, rare qualities to be found at a factory wage. My inclination, as an inquisitive engineer, would be to disassemble the horn and personally clean and hand polish all the parts. That is the best inspection procedure I know for evaluating a used instrument. Short of that, I'd push clean white cloth through the bore looking for deposits. Look closely at what turns up, particularly look for particulate material. If there is anything that's going to cause serious damage, you're going to feel it when you operate the valves. If you feel grating, and you keep working the valves, chances are you're too stupid to benefit from these simple instructions. Take the valves apart and do a thorough cleaning. If you're unsure of your abilities, it's not difficult. If you post what you're attempting on the net, you'll have several knowledgeable people offering friendly help within minutes. In a pinch, you can do the whole job with a butter knife and a wooden spoon, as long as you pick a butter knife that fits the screws properly. The actual cleaning is done with a snake brush and cotton swabs and cloth or paper towels using dishwasing liquid and brasso to clean and polish. Chances are, you won't have to do any polishing, just soaking, scrubbing, and flushing. At worst, you might have to take all the parts to a technician to be reassembled, but you'll know you spent enough time to really get things clean. Save the dirty swabs with the original sludge, and the last clean swabs, to show the technician. They will tell him more detail than you can. Watch the reassembly so you can do it all next time. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: new horn maintenance
Hold your hands against your breath & smell. If it is too acid, you will smell it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason A Pawlak Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 4:58 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: new horn maintenance What is "bad acid breath"? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: new horn maintenance
So I recommend to pull off slides & leave the case open for some days when planning to leave the horn unplayed for more than a short while. The horn can dry completely then. Just water it before resuming playing. = I think the worst problems happen when the horn sits unplayed. The valve oil evaporates but the moisture is still in there and starts to cause corrosion. You'd probably be safe with 6 or 10 hours of playing daily. Well ok maybe a little less. - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: new horn maintenance
At 7:58 PM -0800 3/7/04, Jason A Pawlak wrote: >What is "bad acid breath"? Greetings - This web site is about "acid breath." I suppose "bad" is simply a matter of degree. http://www.acidbreath.userhost.de/heller/1024x768.htm On the lighter side, here's a cartoon about an effect of acid breath. http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/a/acid_breath.asp Here's an article titled "Minimal bile acid malabsorption and normal bile acid breath . . . " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=838220 Now, if that isn't enough, as my memory is taxed this late at night, you might try a Google search. Regards, Carlbewrg Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: new horn maintenance
What is "bad acid breath"? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/7/04 1:00:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hans Pizka writes: If you mean scary stories, I guess I could tell quite a few. In general though, I'd say valve maintenance is pretty straightforward. Oil them reasonably, clean the horn out often enough and maybe most important, play every day. The people I know that do those things never have any valve trouble. Even people with bad acid breath. I think the worst problems happen when the horn sits unplayed. The valve oil evaporates but the moisture is still in there and starts to cause corrosion. You'd probably be safe with 6 or 10 hours of playing daily. Well ok maybe a little less. - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hornplayerjason%40yahoo.com - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: New Horn Maintenance
Wash the horn through as I told you. Do it carefully. You will see nothing coming out. Often the "factory dust" is the dirt accumulated by the many careless people who tried the horn for weeks but returned the horn, and on and on. The shop keeper never cleaned the horn out after use nor did the trying person. This is not dirt but ugly left overs from "fellow players". Clean it out & use a micro fibre towel to whip away the water drops. Micro fibre towel is available in super markets. Don't get hysterical about stupid old stories which might be true, but only for every hundredth horn or less. There are enough hysterical out, who lament about such stuff. Once we got a special built horn back, with the comment, the valves would not work as they were lame. The customer did not get along with the horn. It exceeded his potentials as a player & financially. So he oiled the valves with "gun oil" which produces a perfect slime if in contact with water or other moist. He did that, to blame us for the sluggish valves. But when we saw the with slime, we knew immediately what he had done .. Michael, do not believe every story you receive. Use your brain to separate (perhaps) true stories from mere legends & "micky mouse stories". -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 7:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Re: New Horn Maintenance Sorry, But how can you tell if the horn has "factory dust" left in? Are there tell tale sings I would notice or something? Mike ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re:[Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance
I bought an older 668 (which was new, but the warehouse had lost track of its location) which was very clean and hardly anything came out when I used my hornwash stuff, the vavles have been fantastic ( though with the 668's I would suggest that you buy some springs that are a bit tighter, but not nearly as much as holton or UMI and some softer bumpers). I guess that just about every horn can benefit from medium tension springs and soft bumpers. -- Original Message From: ""<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:43:38 EST >In a message dated 3/6/04 1:00:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Michael K writes: > > >> I just recieved my new Yamaha YHR668NDII, and was wondering if I have >> to take it into the shop to get the so called "factory dust" cleaned out. >> > >I did clean out a new 668 recently and there was some factory gunk in it, >although not as much as some brands. In the US, the manufacturers used to >use vapor degreasers to clean the horns, but they had to give them up for >envioronmental and health reasons. Conn and Holton are using ultrasonic cleaners >but apparently they're not working so well. I've done several new ones >recently that were chock full of stuff. The kind of stuff left behind is abrasive so >it will wear the valves out prematurely unless it's gotten rid of. Any kind >of normal washing, flooding with oil etc. won't do much good. You have to >take the valves out and clean the casings, bearings and around the corners where >the stuff is lurking. It's not easy to get it all. It will be in such places >as the valve cap threads, stop arms, at the edges where tubes are soldered >together, in the valve knuckles. Any of it that's left will be loosened up by >whatever valve oil you use and will run right back into the valves. >As I mentioned, the Yamaha I did recently wasn't as bad, but there was >some buffing compound still lurking that had gotten into the valves and was >making them act badly. >Finding a shop that really understands what's needed won't be easy >though! > >- Steve Mumford > > >___ >post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/musicmaster%40the-any-key.com > _ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com Looking for friendships,romance and more? http://www.MyOwnFriends.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance
This is not an answer to my question !! == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of c y Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 2:34 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance There is the old story I remember of 1 out of 4 yamaha piston schmidt model horns having metal shavings in the valves while they were new. I knew someone who had one that had to sell the horn because the valves were ruined. Hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Very interesting, very interesting, but would you kindly tell the crowd, how horns owned by professionals as well as by amateur look like after a few weeks or months ? I could tell many stories from what I have seen .. === ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance
There is the old story I remember of 1 out of 4 yamaha piston schmidt model horns having metal shavings in the valves while they were new. I knew someone who had one that had to sell the horn because the valves were ruined. Hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Very interesting, very interesting, but would you kindly tell the crowd, how horns owned by professionals as well as by amateur look like after a few weeks or months ? I could tell many stories from what I have seen .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance In a message dated 3/6/04 1:00:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Michael K writes: > I just recieved my new Yamaha YHR668NDII, and was wondering if I have > to take it into the shop to get the so called "factory dust" cleaned out. > I did clean out a new 668 recently and there was some factory gunk in it, although not as much as some brands. In the US, the manufacturers used to use vapor degreasers to clean the horns, but they had to give them up for envioronmental and health reasons. Conn and Holton are using ultrasonic cleaners but apparently they're not working so well. I've done several new ones recently that were chock full of stuff. The kind of stuff left behind is abrasive so it will wear the valves out prematurely unless it's gotten rid of. Any kind of normal washing, flooding with oil etc. won't do much good. You have to take the valves out and clean the casings, bearings and around the corners where the stuff is lurking. It's not easy to get it all. It will be in such places as the valve cap threads, stop arms, at the edges where tubes are soldered together, in the valve knuckles. Any of it that's left will be loosened up by whatever valve oil you use and will run right back into the valves. As I mentioned, the Yamaha I did recently wasn't as bad, but there was some buffing compound still lurking that had gotten into the valves and was making them act badly. Finding a shop that really understands what's needed won't be easy though! - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/nafai23%40yahoo.com - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance
Very interesting, very interesting, but would you kindly tell the crowd, how horns owned by professionals as well as by amateur look like after a few weeks or months ? I could tell many stories from what I have seen .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance In a message dated 3/6/04 1:00:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Michael K writes: > I just recieved my new Yamaha YHR668NDII, and was wondering if I have > to take it into the shop to get the so called "factory dust" cleaned out. > I did clean out a new 668 recently and there was some factory gunk in it, although not as much as some brands. In the US, the manufacturers used to use vapor degreasers to clean the horns, but they had to give them up for envioronmental and health reasons. Conn and Holton are using ultrasonic cleaners but apparently they're not working so well. I've done several new ones recently that were chock full of stuff. The kind of stuff left behind is abrasive so it will wear the valves out prematurely unless it's gotten rid of. Any kind of normal washing, flooding with oil etc. won't do much good. You have to take the valves out and clean the casings, bearings and around the corners where the stuff is lurking. It's not easy to get it all. It will be in such places as the valve cap threads, stop arms, at the edges where tubes are soldered together, in the valve knuckles. Any of it that's left will be loosened up by whatever valve oil you use and will run right back into the valves. As I mentioned, the Yamaha I did recently wasn't as bad, but there was some buffing compound still lurking that had gotten into the valves and was making them act badly. Finding a shop that really understands what's needed won't be easy though! - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: New horn maintenance
At 11:43 PM 3/6/04 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I did clean out a new 668 recently and there was some factory gunk in it, I had to perform the same service on the first to top end Yammies to come through my shop. Both were unplayable due to stcking valves even after being "serviced" by reputable repairers. John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1 Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
