Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
Kit, we do not live in the middle ages nor in the time of the Romans nor in Germany or Austria after WW1, when they also drove on left side. Neither do we live in the time of 2-valved piston horns. But the question we're asking, is where and when do conventions originate? We can't discuss these things without looking to the past. Most adopted the right side drive, while we horn players stay on the left hand horn playing, as it is easier to play into your next player (rank wise). A whole new question... I can think of at least 2 other reasons why we might hold the horn with the bell facing to the right and use our left hands for the keys. 1) For hand stopping, it's natural to want to use the most dextrous hand, which for most people is the right hand. Hand stopping was well established before valves were introduced, and so they were given to the left hand. If valves had been introduced before hand-stopping, then I think we'd be playing mirror-horns. 2) With a wide-coiled hunting horn, if you hold it in the most comfortable manner using your right hand, the bell falls to the right. I believe Baroque horn players often played with the bells facing up or played instruments that weren't much like modern hunting horns, so perhaps this last point was not relevant. It is awkward for two hornists to play with the bells facing each other because of the weird acoustic interactions, so there is another very good reason for individual horns not to break the bell-to-the-right convention. But I would wager that if valves had been invented before hand-stopping, we would play instruments with the bells facing left and our right hands on the valves. We would sit on the left hand side of the stage (from our perspective) and with any luck, the trumpets, trombones and tubas would sit on the right. Pictures in books cannot convince me regarding two valved horns with valves in reverse order, I haven't seen a picture of a valved horn with the valves in reverse order, but I agree with your scepticism about illustrations. I'd want to see one in the metal. because if the shanks are equal long (see modern doublers), both slides fit into each others shanks. They also require identical spacing between them... Older horns were built by hand and my experience is that the slides fit where they touch. Even for a single slide, the shanks can differ in length by a millimeter or two. If you turn the slide over and insert it back into the shanks, you generally see a gap of a few millimeters between the end of the shank and the start of the wider tubing on the slide. You get a related effect if the tubing was not cut exactly perpendicularly. Any difference between the length of the shanks is doubled when you insert the slide backwards. If there is an 1/2 mm difference in their lengths, you see a 1mm gap when you insert the slide. Nobody can prove, if this was accidentally or voluntarily. The photographers have no knowledge about that anyway. We mixed up one colleagues slides on his double. He looked at his horn because of the intonation troubles, but did not find out why. Yes, but this was by definition a modern horn as double horns didn't exist until 1897. We're talking about much earlier instruments, which weren't built as accurately. If you can find an early horn with reversed valves and you can't swap the first and 2nd slides round, then I would personally regard this as strong evidence that it was built that way. So there is only the musical reason which counts in favour of the rowing 1/1 next 1/2 step. I have explained that, but you seem not to digest that. But instead of digesting that, you hang on with unimportant arguments contra my may-be not full adequate comparisons. I have digested what you have said. I agree with you entirely about the first valve being most important. I just don't think the explanation is complete. Look at an olympic podium. The person who is first (most important) comes in the middle. The second and third competitors stand to his right and left. So why not the important tone valve in the middle, the semitone valve for the index finger, and the tone 1/2 valve for the ring finger? This is obviously silly, because the 2, 1, 3 order of olympic competitors is irrelevant to the order of the valves on a horn. What I'm pointing out is that the order 1,2,3 that your theory assumes, is equally arbitrary. It is possibly more intuitive, but not so overwhelmingly so that an inventor might not have considered reversing it to make a better instrument. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
Just a thought here-- try and imagine how much progress one might achieve by re-focusing the same amount of (extremely valuable!) mental energy expended in debating this pedantic issue, to practising orchestral excerpts. In utmost deference to those involved, I believe that one's time is better utilized pursuing a more result-oriented line of thought, rather than a tangential exploration of arcane, esoteric minutia. Leave the epistemological exercises to the musicologists; apply Occam's razor to this shorter second valve slide issue and answer two questions: will it make me a better player? If so, how? Happy practising, martin bender On 12-Feb-09, at 8:49 AM, Kit Wolf wrote: Kit, we do not live in the middle ages nor in the time of the Romans nor in Germany or Austria after WW1, when they also drove on left side. Neither do we live in the time of 2-valved piston horns. But the question we're asking, is where and when do conventions originate? We can't discuss these things without looking to the past. Most adopted the right side drive, while we horn players stay on the left hand horn playing, as it is easier to play into your next player (rank wise). A whole new question... I can think of at least 2 other reasons why we might hold the horn with the bell facing to the right and use our left hands for the keys. 1) For hand stopping, it's natural to want to use the most dextrous hand, which for most people is the right hand. Hand stopping was well established before valves were introduced, and so they were given to the left hand. If valves had been introduced before hand-stopping, then I think we'd be playing mirror-horns. 2) With a wide-coiled hunting horn, if you hold it in the most comfortable manner using your right hand, the bell falls to the right. I believe Baroque horn players often played with the bells facing up or played instruments that weren't much like modern hunting horns, so perhaps this last point was not relevant. It is awkward for two hornists to play with the bells facing each other because of the weird acoustic interactions, so there is another very good reason for individual horns not to break the bell-to-the-right convention. But I would wager that if valves had been invented before hand- stopping, we would play instruments with the bells facing left and our right hands on the valves. We would sit on the left hand side of the stage (from our perspective) and with any luck, the trumpets, trombones and tubas would sit on the right. Pictures in books cannot convince me regarding two valved horns with valves in reverse order, I haven't seen a picture of a valved horn with the valves in reverse order, but I agree with your scepticism about illustrations. I'd want to see one in the metal. because if the shanks are equal long (see modern doublers), both slides fit into each others shanks. They also require identical spacing between them... Older horns were built by hand and my experience is that the slides fit where they touch. Even for a single slide, the shanks can differ in length by a millimeter or two. If you turn the slide over and insert it back into the shanks, you generally see a gap of a few millimeters between the end of the shank and the start of the wider tubing on the slide. You get a related effect if the tubing was not cut exactly perpendicularly. Any difference between the length of the shanks is doubled when you insert the slide backwards. If there is an 1/2 mm difference in their lengths, you see a 1mm gap when you insert the slide. Nobody can prove, if this was accidentally or voluntarily. The photographers have no knowledge about that anyway. We mixed up one colleagues slides on his double. He looked at his horn because of the intonation troubles, but did not find out why. Yes, but this was by definition a modern horn as double horns didn't exist until 1897. We're talking about much earlier instruments, which weren't built as accurately. If you can find an early horn with reversed valves and you can't swap the first and 2nd slides round, then I would personally regard this as strong evidence that it was built that way. So there is only the musical reason which counts in favour of the rowing 1/1 next 1/2 step. I have explained that, but you seem not to digest that. But instead of digesting that, you hang on with unimportant arguments contra my may-be not full adequate comparisons. I have digested what you have said. I agree with you entirely about the first valve being most important. I just don't think the explanation is complete. Look at an olympic podium. The person who is first (most important) comes in the middle. The second and third competitors stand to his right and left. So why not the important tone valve in the middle, the semitone valve for the index finger, and the tone 1/2 valve for the ring finger? This is
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/misc/Livain-fr-horn.jpg and http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/Senecaut/Senecaut-P-2-valve-FH.jpg Both of which have the tone valve 1st. But! http://www.usd.edu/smm/UtleyPages/DoublePistonValves/DoublePistonValveChecklist.html They're not horns, but they clearly show a degree of flexibility in the assignments of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valves. Even in 3-valve instruments. You can't quite tell for certain from the pictures whether it's possible to rule out somebody misplacing the slides when reassembling the instruments. But personally I think it's unlikely. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
The search term is 'catholic fingering' + whatever instrument you're interested in. The historic brass society has an article on it: The Catholic Fingering First Valve Semitone Reversed Valve Order in Brass Instruments and Related Valve Constructions by Joe R. Utley and Sabine K. Klaus, 2003 Historic Brass Society Journal vol. 15 Unfortunately, it's not a journal I have access to. Kit And another one: http://www.usd.edu/smm/Brass/Cornets/Graves/5257/5257Gravescornet.html Kit http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/misc/Livain-fr-horn.jpg and http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/Senecaut/Senecaut-P-2-valve-FH.jpg Both of which have the tone valve 1st. But! http://www.usd.edu/smm/UtleyPages/DoublePistonValves/DoublePistonValveChecklist.html They're not horns, but they clearly show a degree of flexibility in the assignments of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valves. Even in 3-valve instruments. You can't quite tell for certain from the pictures whether it's possible to rule out somebody misplacing the slides when reassembling the instruments. But personally I think it's unlikely. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
- Message from c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk - I just don't think the explanation is complete. In physics there is a very important mechanism called symmetry breaking: a physical system may set down in a state which breaks the symmetry of the general laws it obeys to. In many cases, which particular state is chosen is essentially a matter of chance. You can't explain why, for example, the preferred hand for most people turned out to be the right hand, rather than the left. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
Thanks Daniel, I'm starting to agree with Martin that I've been thinking about it too much... I'm happy to accept it's probably down to chance. ~~ I wrote to a friend who plays historical instruments for a living, and just got the following reply: [Out of a collection of 200 horns] there are half a dozen with the valve order 1/2 - 1 - 1 1/2. They did that in Bavaria. No particular reason to choose one or the other really, but the third valve is always 1 1/2 because it's the additional extra that's not so necessary. In Belgium they used two valves all the way up to the end of the nineteenth century. That sample of 200 horns include rather a lot of hunting horns so it seems safe to conclude that the 1/2, 1, 1 1/2 arrangement is not particularly rare, and that it was used for horns as well as other instruments. I just had another look at some of the older posts and noted that Bavarian instruments were brought up before. Time to move on to other things, I think, Kit - Message from c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk - I just don't think the explanation is complete. In physics there is a very important mechanism called symmetry breaking: a physical system may set down in a state which breaks the symmetry of the general laws it obeys to. In many cases, which particular state is chosen is essentially a matter of chance. You can't explain why, for example, the preferred hand for most people turned out to be the right hand, rather than the left. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
When flipping an American quarter, physicists and statisticians found that the coin is slightly more likely to land heads than tails because the eagle has more mass than George Washington’s head. Demming would be proud of them. Respectfully Submitted, Scott Young Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:48:34 +0100 From: daniel.canaru...@unifi.it To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17 - Message from c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk - I just don't think the explanation is complete. In physics there is a very important mechanism called symmetry breaking: a physical system may set down in a state which breaks the symmetry of the general laws it obeys to. In many cases, which particular state is chosen is essentially a matter of chance. You can't explain why, for example, the preferred hand for most people turned out to be the right hand, rather than the left. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/scott44y%40msn.com___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
