Re: [HOT] Task 1238 Canaan Important Deletion of existing objects

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Dale:

Sorry for any misunderstanding, if there is any. I haven't been involved
in any mapping in Haiti, anytime, so I am not aware of any of those
imagery, etc. issues you all are discussing about in this thread.

I've just read Pierre's question on buildings being deleted and my aim
was only to try helping on the edit history and how the map was before
those edits.

About reverting, I only said that I saw a *potential* revertion
troublesome (then I read Paul's email and he says there are actually
tools to revert multiple changesets that I wasn't aware of) due to the
big number of changesets. In any case, any revert has to be done after
consulting with the user/s involved and, conveniently, with the local
community (unless the edits can be proved to be malicious or libelous,
that is obviously not the case).

Cheers, and have all a wonderful weekend,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 21:00, Dale Kunce wrote:
> Rafael,
> We decided to do large scale deletion for a number of reasons.
> 
>   * Errors within iD that cause many buildings to be traced several
> times thus resulting in many many overlapping buildings.
>   o I personally fixed thousands of overlaps and fixed several
> thousand of other validation errors in the area.
>   * Poor spatial consistency between multiple imagery resources
>   o Bing
>   o 2013 drone imagery
>   o 2014 drone imagery
>   o 2015 drone imagery
>   o Recent GeoEye imagery
>   * Lack of existing drone imagery led us to acquire high resolution
> satellite imagery.
>   o Imagery isn't nearly as clean and sharp as the drone imagery
> being shot but is consistent throughout the entire area.
> 
> *Do not *revert these changes as it represents hundreds of man hours by
> ARC staff to clean up and fix this area. The area in its current state
> is the most up to date the area *has ever been *due to previous efforts
> by Haiti Communitaire and the ARC GIS team. We have spent considerable
> time in the field and remotely mapping this area.
> 
> Again, for continued questions about these changesets please contact me
> off-list.
> 
> Dale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Rafael Avila Coya  > wrote:
> 
> Hi, Pierre:
> 
> I guess this is what the majority of people do, and only the most
> experienced users re-trace objects, also using the replace geometry tool
> (CTRL+SHIFT+G). It took me long to me to realise about that too.
> 
> As usual in these cases, I would contact him to check what happened, and
> tell him how he should proceed from now on, so he learns the advantages
> of not deleting objects unless really needed, but improving those
> objects instead.
> 
> I've checked the edits by that user, and he made lots of changesets
> (maybe around hundred), so I see a potencial reversion very troublesome
> and time consuming.
> 
> The first of the changesets seem to have been edited about a month ago
> [1]. So around 6 am 21 Oct 2015.
> 
> To check what buildings were at the area before deletion, you may use
> the next overpass query: [2]. As there isn't any Canaan area in OSM,
> just used the ({{bbox}}) thing. I set the date at 00:00:01 of that day
> (so 6 hours before the first changeset).
> 
> With this other query [3] you can get a file with the building ways that
> were present at that same date and time, that were deleted, and also
> those that were modified and new buildings created. The output file
> don't open in JOSM, but could be use to get statistical info (for
> example) on number of buildings deleted.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rafael.
> 
> [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/34784526
> [2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQv
> [3] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQw
> 
> 
> On 20/11/15 19:29, Pierre Béland wrote:
> > Being in Port-au-Prince for a Training session of the Haiti
> > OpenStreetMap community (Espace OSM francophone project), I
> collaborate
> > this week with the Haiti OSM community who have monitored urbanisation
> > progression in the Canaan sector, providing UAV imagery in 2013, 2014
> > and 2015 (60% of the zone covered so far).  They have also added
> to osm
> > the building footprints in the area from precise and accurate
> imagery (4
> > cm precision).
> >
> > We organize a mapathon tomorrow to revise the Canaan zone using the
> > November 2015 imagery available and monitor the progress of rapid
> House
> > contruction in this sector.
> >
> > Planning the work, I see today that one contributor did most of
> Tak 1238
> > for Canaan Haiti and it seems deleted systematically buildings before
> > redrawing them.  In JOSM if I download buildings and search for newly
> > created buildings (ie version:1), most of the buildings have
> version=1.
> >
> > If this is exact, we should note tha

Re: [HOT] Task 1238 Canaan Important Deletion of existing objects

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Dale:

Sorry for any misunderstanding, if there is any. I haven't been involved
in any mapping in Haiti, anytime, so I am not aware of any of those
imagery, etc. issues you all are discussing about in this thread.

I've just read Pierre's question on buildings being deleted and my aim
was only to try helping on the edit history and how the map was before
those edits.

About reverting, I only said that I saw a *potential* revertion
troublesome (then I read Paul's email and he says there are actually
tools to revert multiple changesets that I wasn't aware of) due to the
big number of changesets. In any case, any revert has to be done after
consulting with the user/s involved and, conveniently, with the local
community (unless the edits can be proved to be malicious or libelous,
that is obviously not the case).

Cheers, and have all a wonderful weekend,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 21:00, Dale Kunce wrote:
> Rafael,
> We decided to do large scale deletion for a number of reasons.
> 
>   * Errors within iD that cause many buildings to be traced several
> times thus resulting in many many overlapping buildings.
>   o I personally fixed thousands of overlaps and fixed several
> thousand of other validation errors in the area.
>   * Poor spatial consistency between multiple imagery resources
>   o Bing
>   o 2013 drone imagery
>   o 2014 drone imagery
>   o 2015 drone imagery
>   o Recent GeoEye imagery
>   * Lack of existing drone imagery led us to acquire high resolution
> satellite imagery.
>   o Imagery isn't nearly as clean and sharp as the drone imagery
> being shot but is consistent throughout the entire area.
> 
> *Do not *revert these changes as it represents hundreds of man hours by
> ARC staff to clean up and fix this area. The area in its current state
> is the most up to date the area *has ever been *due to previous efforts
> by Haiti Communitaire and the ARC GIS team. We have spent considerable
> time in the field and remotely mapping this area.
> 
> Again, for continued questions about these changesets please contact me
> off-list.
> 
> Dale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Rafael Avila Coya  > wrote:
> 
> Hi, Pierre:
> 
> I guess this is what the majority of people do, and only the most
> experienced users re-trace objects, also using the replace geometry tool
> (CTRL+SHIFT+G). It took me long to me to realise about that too.
> 
> As usual in these cases, I would contact him to check what happened, and
> tell him how he should proceed from now on, so he learns the advantages
> of not deleting objects unless really needed, but improving those
> objects instead.
> 
> I've checked the edits by that user, and he made lots of changesets
> (maybe around hundred), so I see a potencial reversion very troublesome
> and time consuming.
> 
> The first of the changesets seem to have been edited about a month ago
> [1]. So around 6 am 21 Oct 2015.
> 
> To check what buildings were at the area before deletion, you may use
> the next overpass query: [2]. As there isn't any Canaan area in OSM,
> just used the ({{bbox}}) thing. I set the date at 00:00:01 of that day
> (so 6 hours before the first changeset).
> 
> With this other query [3] you can get a file with the building ways that
> were present at that same date and time, that were deleted, and also
> those that were modified and new buildings created. The output file
> don't open in JOSM, but could be use to get statistical info (for
> example) on number of buildings deleted.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rafael.
> 
> [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/34784526
> [2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQv
> [3] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQw
> 
> 
> On 20/11/15 19:29, Pierre Béland wrote:
> > Being in Port-au-Prince for a Training session of the Haiti
> > OpenStreetMap community (Espace OSM francophone project), I
> collaborate
> > this week with the Haiti OSM community who have monitored urbanisation
> > progression in the Canaan sector, providing UAV imagery in 2013, 2014
> > and 2015 (60% of the zone covered so far).  They have also added
> to osm
> > the building footprints in the area from precise and accurate
> imagery (4
> > cm precision).
> >
> > We organize a mapathon tomorrow to revise the Canaan zone using the
> > November 2015 imagery available and monitor the progress of rapid
> House
> > contruction in this sector.
> >
> > Planning the work, I see today that one contributor did most of
> Tak 1238
> > for Canaan Haiti and it seems deleted systematically buildings before
> > redrawing them.  In JOSM if I download buildings and search for newly
> > created buildings (ie version:1), most of the buildings have
> version=1.
> >
> > If this is exact, we should note tha

Re: [HOT] Mapathon OSM Haiti : Canaan housing and road revision

[Pierre Béland]

Bonjou tout moun. Good morning all.
A few km from the first area I mapped remotely in jan 2010, we start a  
mapathon at Haiti Communitere. It is a great pleasure for me to participate to 
this mapathon today.
see https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1351  
Pierre 

  De : Pierre Béland 
 À : HOT Openstreetmap  
 Envoyé le : Vendredi 20 novembre 2015 16h54
 Objet : Mapathon OSM Haiti : Canaan housing and road revision
   
In the context of the OSM Francophone Space, we organize tomorrow a Mapathon at 
Communitere in Port-au-Prince, Haiti
Hopefully our colleagues gathered in Lome, Togo will join us virtually to 
contribute to update the data.

We will work with the November 2015 imagery realised by Presler Jean and the 
OSM Haiti community and revise information on Canaan to reflect the evolution 
of housing in particular.

Deforestation of the mountains and the rapid urbanization of areas along the 
Canaan Ravines pose a risk to people nearby. The OSM Haiti community has made 
flights of UAVs over the area since 2013 to measure the progress of residential 
buildings and identify the most at-risk areas. In parallel, meetings with local 
communities aim to raise awareness of the risks related to habitat in a flood 
zone where heavy rains swell rapidly in the Ravines. Meetings with local 
councils also help to support them in analyzing data and identifying solutions 
and look at long-term planning.

The precision of UAV images will allow to draw buildings and roads in the area, 
and revise as new construction or relocation of houses in areas most at risk to 
other areas.

We will publish the job tomorrow morning.In the meantime, I am asking that we 
archive the current ONA job using Satellite imagery to avoid any duplication. 

Dale, could you archive the task and avoid to map from the UAV imagery tonight 
in your mapathons? This woud let the OSM Haiti community map tomorrow from the 
UAV imagery they produced.
 regard

Pierre 


  ___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] Task 1238 Canaan Important Deletion of existing objects

[Rod Bera]

Hi all,

I haven't taken part in mapping in this area, so I don't know about the
details, but what I read looks concerning: large scale deletion, massive
imports, and substantial reverts are to be discussed with the community.
This is the base of OSM's collaborative work.

Therefore I agree with Dale that unilateral reverts should not happen
unless agreed on. But I also point out that no massive deletion should
have happened without prior discussion with the community.

As to spatial consistency, this is also something that can (must) be
discussed collectively in order to define a coherent line of conduct
(imagery to be used/not
used/corrected/re-georectified/re-georeferenced/...).

Let's bear in mind that OSM is COLLABORATIVE mapping, and collaboration
is not just about adding up individuals' contributions.

It is also about inclusive and constructive interaction.

Convivial* interaction.

Cheers,

Rod

* con vivere [latin] --> living TOGETHER. We Hotties/OSMers/Humans
especially need to improve on this.




On 20/11/15 21:00, Dale Kunce wrote:
> Rafael,
> We decided to do large scale deletion for a number of reasons.
> 
>   * Errors within iD that cause many buildings to be traced several
> times thus resulting in many many overlapping buildings.
>   o I personally fixed thousands of overlaps and fixed several
> thousand of other validation errors in the area.
>   * Poor spatial consistency between multiple imagery resources
>   o Bing
>   o 2013 drone imagery
>   o 2014 drone imagery
>   o 2015 drone imagery
>   o Recent GeoEye imagery
>   * Lack of existing drone imagery led us to acquire high resolution
> satellite imagery.
>   o Imagery isn't nearly as clean and sharp as the drone imagery
> being shot but is consistent throughout the entire area.
> 
> *Do not *revert these changes as it represents hundreds of man hours by
> ARC staff to clean up and fix this area. The area in its current state
> is the most up to date the area *has ever been *due to previous efforts
> by Haiti Communitaire and the ARC GIS team. We have spent considerable
> time in the field and remotely mapping this area.
> 
> Again, for continued questions about these changesets please contact me
> off-list.
> 
> Dale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Rafael Avila Coya  > wrote:
> 
> Hi, Pierre:
> 
> I guess this is what the majority of people do, and only the most
> experienced users re-trace objects, also using the replace geometry tool
> (CTRL+SHIFT+G). It took me long to me to realise about that too.
> 
> As usual in these cases, I would contact him to check what happened, and
> tell him how he should proceed from now on, so he learns the advantages
> of not deleting objects unless really needed, but improving those
> objects instead.
> 
> I've checked the edits by that user, and he made lots of changesets
> (maybe around hundred), so I see a potencial reversion very troublesome
> and time consuming.
> 
> The first of the changesets seem to have been edited about a month ago
> [1]. So around 6 am 21 Oct 2015.
> 
> To check what buildings were at the area before deletion, you may use
> the next overpass query: [2]. As there isn't any Canaan area in OSM,
> just used the ({{bbox}}) thing. I set the date at 00:00:01 of that day
> (so 6 hours before the first changeset).
> 
> With this other query [3] you can get a file with the building ways that
> were present at that same date and time, that were deleted, and also
> those that were modified and new buildings created. The output file
> don't open in JOSM, but could be use to get statistical info (for
> example) on number of buildings deleted.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rafael.
> 
> [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/34784526
> [2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQv
> [3] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQw
> 
> 
> On 20/11/15 19:29, Pierre Béland wrote:
> > Being in Port-au-Prince for a Training session of the Haiti
> > OpenStreetMap community (Espace OSM francophone project), I
> collaborate
> > this week with the Haiti OSM community who have monitored urbanisation
> > progression in the Canaan sector, providing UAV imagery in 2013, 2014
> > and 2015 (60% of the zone covered so far).  They have also added
> to osm
> > the building footprints in the area from precise and accurate
> imagery (4
> > cm precision).
> >
> > We organize a mapathon tomorrow to revise the Canaan zone using the
> > November 2015 imagery available and monitor the progress of rapid
> House
> > contruction in this sector.
> >
> > Planning the work, I see today that one contributor did most of
> Tak 1238
> > for Canaan Haiti and it seems deleted systematically buildings before
> > redrawing them.  In JOSM if I download buildings and search 

Re: [HOT] Task 1238 Canaan Important Deletion of existing objects

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Rod:

I already explained what I meant with my revert comments in my answer to
Dale, and asked for apologies if I was misunderstood. My comments about
revert were that "a ***potential*** revert would be troublesome, but I
wasn't meaning that there should happen a revert without asking anybody.
In fact, I wasn't aiming at any revert anyway, because, like you, I
haven't ever been involved in any mapping in Haiti.

These past days there was a (still ongoing) thread in the Spanish talk
list about how to follow up on some survey point nodes that some users
delete from an old import from the IGN (Spanish Ordinance Survey), and I
helped them with similar overpass queries that I thought could be of
interest for Pierre to check how was the state of the map (buildings) of
the area a month ago. That's it. When I answered, I wasn't aware that
Dale also answered Pierre; otherwise my answer would probably be
different, according to the new info.

I agree with you about all what you say about convivial interaction.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 21/11/15 16:49, Rod Bera wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I haven't taken part in mapping in this area, so I don't know about the
> details, but what I read looks concerning: large scale deletion, massive
> imports, and substantial reverts are to be discussed with the community.
> This is the base of OSM's collaborative work.
> 
> Therefore I agree with Dale that unilateral reverts should not happen
> unless agreed on. But I also point out that no massive deletion should
> have happened without prior discussion with the community.
> 
> As to spatial consistency, this is also something that can (must) be
> discussed collectively in order to define a coherent line of conduct
> (imagery to be used/not
> used/corrected/re-georectified/re-georeferenced/...).
> 
> Let's bear in mind that OSM is COLLABORATIVE mapping, and collaboration
> is not just about adding up individuals' contributions.
> 
> It is also about inclusive and constructive interaction.
> 
> Convivial* interaction.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rod
> 
> * con vivere [latin] --> living TOGETHER. We Hotties/OSMers/Humans
> especially need to improve on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 20/11/15 21:00, Dale Kunce wrote:
>> Rafael,
>> We decided to do large scale deletion for a number of reasons.
>>
>>   * Errors within iD that cause many buildings to be traced several
>> times thus resulting in many many overlapping buildings.
>>   o I personally fixed thousands of overlaps and fixed several
>> thousand of other validation errors in the area.
>>   * Poor spatial consistency between multiple imagery resources
>>   o Bing
>>   o 2013 drone imagery
>>   o 2014 drone imagery
>>   o 2015 drone imagery
>>   o Recent GeoEye imagery
>>   * Lack of existing drone imagery led us to acquire high resolution
>> satellite imagery.
>>   o Imagery isn't nearly as clean and sharp as the drone imagery
>> being shot but is consistent throughout the entire area.
>>
>> *Do not *revert these changes as it represents hundreds of man hours by
>> ARC staff to clean up and fix this area. The area in its current state
>> is the most up to date the area *has ever been *due to previous efforts
>> by Haiti Communitaire and the ARC GIS team. We have spent considerable
>> time in the field and remotely mapping this area.
>>
>> Again, for continued questions about these changesets please contact me
>> off-list.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Rafael Avila Coya > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Pierre:
>>
>> I guess this is what the majority of people do, and only the most
>> experienced users re-trace objects, also using the replace geometry tool
>> (CTRL+SHIFT+G). It took me long to me to realise about that too.
>>
>> As usual in these cases, I would contact him to check what happened, and
>> tell him how he should proceed from now on, so he learns the advantages
>> of not deleting objects unless really needed, but improving those
>> objects instead.
>>
>> I've checked the edits by that user, and he made lots of changesets
>> (maybe around hundred), so I see a potencial reversion very troublesome
>> and time consuming.
>>
>> The first of the changesets seem to have been edited about a month ago
>> [1]. So around 6 am 21 Oct 2015.
>>
>> To check what buildings were at the area before deletion, you may use
>> the next overpass query: [2]. As there isn't any Canaan area in OSM,
>> just used the ({{bbox}}) thing. I set the date at 00:00:01 of that day
>> (so 6 hours before the first changeset).
>>
>> With this other query [3] you can get a file with the building ways that
>> were present at that same date and time, that were deleted, and also
>> those that were modified and new buildings created. The output file
>> don't open in JOSM, but could be use to get statistical info (for
>> example) on number of buildings de