Re: [HOT] (no subject)

[Pete Masters]

Hi Dan, tricky to check at the moment as I am at the airport without my
laptop, but I think we have to stick with the bing imagery. The one you
posted (I think) was for Masisi tasking only. Happy to check later, but it
looks the same

Cheers,

Pete

On 12 Apr 2017 06:06, "Daniel Specht"  wrote:

There is newer imagery for
#2782 - Missing maps: Tete, Mozambique
available at tms:http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/digitalglobe.n6ngnadl/{z}/{
x}/{y}.png?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoiZGlnaXRhbGdsb2JlIiwiYS
I6ImNpbncxNzE4OTE1dm51a2x5dzlkMXI0eHUifQ.TPHGd-IakYZGSP1ja3WTbQ. Is it OK
to use it?

-- 
Dan

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[HOT] (no subject)

[Daniel Specht]

There is newer imagery for
#2782 - Missing maps: Tete, Mozambique
available at tms:
http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/digitalglobe.n6ngnadl/{z}/{x}/{y}.png?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoiZGlnaXRhbGdsb2JlIiwiYSI6ImNpbncxNzE4OTE1dm51a2x5dzlkMXI0eHUifQ.TPHGd-IakYZGSP1ja3WTbQ.
Is it OK to use it?

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Re: [HOT] round objects

[Jo]

I map those as follows:

's' unselect everything
'a' click, draw a line across the diameter, click
'Shift-O' it becomes a circle
tag it as building=hut
remove 5 nodes, then press 'o' to make it round again. 11 nodes is more
than enough for each hut.

now use Ctrl-d to duplicate to the other huts
you can use Ctrl-Alt-left mouse button drag to rescale as appropriate.

Cheers,

Jo

2017-04-11 20:12 GMT+02:00 Philipp Schultz :

> Hi again
>
> I am not a specialist of Africa - I only traveled in the magreb - but i
> imagine that this hut https://pixabay.com/fr/niger-
> afrique-cabane-accueil-80758/ is a good example.
>
> Regards
> Philipp
>
> 2017-04-11 20:06 GMT+02:00 Philipp Schultz :
>
>> Hi Daniel
>>
>> To me this looks very like a hut and the coding would be ok. You can see
>> similar one in Lira (Mozambique) http://www.openstreetmap.org/#
>> map=19/2.26129/32.86115.
>>
>> Regards
>> Philipp
>>
>> 2017-04-11 19:27 GMT+02:00 Daniel Specht :
>>
>>> Any idea what the round objects in Mozambique on the enclosed picture are.
>>> Mappers are tagging them as buildings.
>>>
>>> the project is #2782 - Missing maps: Tete, Mozambique.
>>>
>>>
>>> If your can't see the picture, it's at Google Photos
>>> https://goo.gl/photos/rKvZJvwBqWrXQn7P6[image: Inline image 1]
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Swissoptimist
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Swissoptimist
>
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Re: [HOT] round objects

[Philipp Schultz]

Hi Daniel

To me this looks very like a hut and the coding would be ok. You can see
similar one in Lira (Mozambique)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/2.26129/32.86115.

Regards
Philipp

2017-04-11 19:27 GMT+02:00 Daniel Specht :

> Any idea what the round objects in Mozambique on the enclosed picture are.
> Mappers are tagging them as buildings.
>
> the project is #2782 - Missing maps: Tete, Mozambique.
>
>
> If your can't see the picture, it's at Google Photos
> https://goo.gl/photos/rKvZJvwBqWrXQn7P6[image: Inline image 1]
>
> --
> Dan
>
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>


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[HOT] round objects

[Daniel Specht]

Any idea what the round objects in Mozambique on the enclosed picture are.
Mappers are tagging them as buildings.

the project is #2782 - Missing maps: Tete, Mozambique.


If your can't see the picture, it's at Google Photos https://goo.gl/photos/
rKvZJvwBqWrXQn7P6[image: Inline image 1]

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[HOT] HOT Community Webinar - Starting now - Intro to Mapbox Studio

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

Greetings!

Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team (HOT) is pleased to invite you to our
third HOT Community Webinar.

Topic: Intro to Mapbox Studio

Apr 11, 2017 11:00 AM EDT (15:00 GMT)  (NOW :)

Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:

https://zoom.us/j/726269464

Meeting ID: 726 269 464

Or iPhone one-tap (US Toll):  +14086380968,726269464# or +16465588656,726269464#

Or Telephone:
Dial: +1 408 638 0968 (US Toll) or +1 646 558 8656 (US Toll)
Meeting ID: 726 269 464

-- 

Blake Girardot
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team, TM3 Project Manager
skype: jblakegirardot
HOT Core Team Contact: i...@hotosm.org

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Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

[Mikel Maron]

All, let's draw this thread to a close. I think we can safely take away that 
additional training, validation, tool and process improvement is needed. Most 
importantly, in the future please keep in mind -- we are all working hard 
together to make the map. We owe each other respect in our communications, and 
constructive comments that lead us forward. Anything else drowns out the value 
of what you want to say.Thanks-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:00 AM, Ralf Stephan  wrote:
 

 Just an idea. As to quality I think HOT/OSM can learn from zooniverse.org 
where they have lots of projects with thousands of citizen participants that 
produce science data, mostly to provide classifications for AI learning. For 
example each project sporadically presents the user without telling with 
pre-classified tasks in order to assess their reliability. Also, they use 
classifications from several users to get the end results, that's our 
validation, but can we do more like this? I'm sure zooniverse does even more 
under the hood, maybe we should ask them?
Regards, 
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:53 PM john whelan  wrote:

Thank you Majka.

I think Majka has pinned down one major problem.  Same problem as I had with 
trainee programmers to them speed was important.  In HOT we shoot ourselves in 
the foot by saying this project is urgent, implying speed is of the essence.  
We need a different way to say this.

This project is important perhaps?

Can we incorporate some elements of Majka's words into learnOSM.

Just for the record I'm not against iD I've seen someone map a building 
perfectly without even touching S to square the building, but if you're mapping 
buildings I don't think its the best tool for the job for new inexperienced 
mappers.

The other thing that has come up on the thread is the lack of validators.  Like 
Polyglot I'm tired of seeing the same mistakes made over and over again.  I've 
cut back on validating to a single project at the moment.  I've left messages 
for a number of mappers only to see them make the same mistakes a week or so 
later and these are mappers I've given feedback to within 24 hours of their 
mapping.  Yes there are some who have gone on to become solid mappers but they 
aren't the majority.

At the moment I'm loading in sections of the map and correcting crossing ways, 
highways that almost meet etc. normally without feedback.  It cleans the map up 
but it would be better if we could catch the mistakes before they are made.  
JOSM will warn about crossing highways before uploading.  I'm not sure if iD 
etc does but there are many many many of them.

If you want more validators or people to do more validation I think you have to 
ask yourselves can the job be made more attractive in some way and error 
prevention might help.

Cheerio John

On 11 April 2017 at 07:25, majka  wrote:

I have to admit, I couldn't use iD for "bulk" mapping for the life of me. I 
find it suitable for the one-off mapping / for doing corrections only. But some 
mappers do and do well with this. You can find haphazardly mapped buildings and 
untagged ways and nodes using JOSM for mapping as well, just not as often.A 
better "building tool" for iD would help some but not for all of it.
The fundamental problem is that some mappers fail to understand mapping isn't a 
race. Somehow, the number of edits / added buildings / changes became more 
important than precision. We are partly promoting this by looking at the number 
of edits to declare a mapper as experienced.
I try to explain to the mappers that sometimes the work is done so badly that 
it would be better to do only one tenth of it but to do so correctly. As 
English is my third or fourth language, I struggle with the correct way to 
explain this, to get the right mix of being diplomatic and to get through - 
above all when I am shouting and swearing in my head at the person who has done 
the mapping.
If I could wish for one thing only to start every new mapper with, it would be 
this: Exact and precise mapping is more important than anything else. Do not 
map for quantity but for quality. And if unsure about tagging, look for help. 
In HOT tasks, read what is expected from you and do exactly so.
Here comes the importance of earliest possible validation - to stop the bad 
habit from forming. New mappers (and old ones as well) would still make 
mistakes but we shouldn't ignore the systematic ones just because it is a new 
mapper and we don't want to be too hard on them.
Everything else comes with experience, the speed of work as well. It is not a 
problem of HOT alone - locally, a new mapper without any experience has 
uploaded more than 100 changesets within the first 24 hours after his 
registration. Every single one of it has to be corrected somehow. Leave it long 
enough uncorrected and the map quality will degrade with tons of 

Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

[Ralf Stephan]

Just an idea. As to quality I think HOT/OSM can learn from zooniverse.org
where they have lots of projects with thousands of citizen participants
that produce science data, mostly to provide classifications for AI
learning. For example each project sporadically presents the user without
telling with pre-classified tasks in order to assess their reliability.
Also, they use classifications from several users to get the end results,
that's our validation, but can we do more like this? I'm sure zooniverse
does even more under the hood, maybe we should ask them?

Regards,

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:53 PM john whelan  wrote:

> Thank you Majka.
>
> I think Majka has pinned down one major problem.  Same problem as I had
> with trainee programmers to them speed was important.  In HOT we shoot
> ourselves in the foot by saying this project is urgent, implying speed is
> of the essence.  We need a different way to say this.
>
> This project is important perhaps?
>
> Can we incorporate some elements of Majka's words into learnOSM.
>
> Just for the record I'm not against iD I've seen someone map a building
> perfectly without even touching S to square the building, but if you're
> mapping buildings I don't think its the best tool for the job for new
> inexperienced mappers.
>
> The other thing that has come up on the thread is the lack of validators.
> Like Polyglot I'm tired of seeing the same mistakes made over and over
> again.  I've cut back on validating to a single project at the moment.
> I've left messages for a number of mappers only to see them make the same
> mistakes a week or so later and these are mappers I've given feedback to
> within 24 hours of their mapping.  Yes there are some who have gone on to
> become solid mappers but they aren't the majority.
>
> At the moment I'm loading in sections of the map and correcting crossing
> ways, highways that almost meet etc. normally without feedback.  It cleans
> the map up but it would be better if we could catch the mistakes before
> they are made.  JOSM will warn about crossing highways before uploading.
> I'm not sure if iD etc does but there are many many many of them.
>
> If you want more validators or people to do more validation I think you
> have to ask yourselves can the job be made more attractive in some way and
> error prevention might help.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 11 April 2017 at 07:25, majka  wrote:
>
> I have to admit, I couldn't use iD for "bulk" mapping for the life of me.
> I find it suitable for the one-off mapping / for doing corrections only.
> But some mappers do and do well with this. You can find haphazardly mapped
> buildings and untagged ways and nodes using JOSM for mapping as well, just
> not as often.
> A better "building tool" for iD would help some but not for all of it.
>
> The fundamental problem is that some mappers fail to understand mapping
> isn't a race. Somehow, the number of edits / added buildings /
> changes became more important than precision. We are partly promoting this
> by looking at the number of edits to declare a mapper as experienced.
>
> I try to explain to the mappers that sometimes the work is done so badly
> that it would be better to do only one tenth of it but to do so correctly.
> As English is my third or fourth language, I struggle with the correct way
> to explain this, to get the right mix of being diplomatic and to get
> through - above all when I am shouting and swearing in my head at the
> person who has done the mapping.
>
> If I could wish for one thing only to start every new mapper with, it
> would be this: Exact and precise mapping is more important than anything
> else. Do not map for quantity but for quality. And if unsure about tagging,
> look for help. In HOT tasks, read what is expected from you and do exactly
> so.
>
> Here comes the importance of earliest possible validation - to stop the
> bad habit from forming. New mappers (and old ones as well) would still make
> mistakes but we shouldn't ignore the systematic ones just because it is a
> new mapper and we don't want to be too hard on them.
>
> Everything else comes with experience, the speed of work as well. It is
> not a problem of HOT alone - locally, a new mapper without any experience
> has uploaded more than 100 changesets within the first 24 hours after his
> registration. Every single one of it has to be corrected somehow. Leave it
> long enough uncorrected and the map quality will degrade with tons of
> useless data obscuring the correct ones.
>
> We should somehow try to promote the idea that mapping isn't a speed race.
> There are not that many tasks really time critical and even then the real
> usefulness of tasks mapped just for speed is somewhat suspect. I would say,
> as there are more mappers available than validators, I cannot see any
> reason for "wasting" validator's time on remapping tasks. And remapping is
> what happens often when validation isn't done as 

Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

[john whelan]

Thank you Majka.

I think Majka has pinned down one major problem.  Same problem as I had
with trainee programmers to them speed was important.  In HOT we shoot
ourselves in the foot by saying this project is urgent, implying speed is
of the essence.  We need a different way to say this.

This project is important perhaps?

Can we incorporate some elements of Majka's words into learnOSM.

Just for the record I'm not against iD I've seen someone map a building
perfectly without even touching S to square the building, but if you're
mapping buildings I don't think its the best tool for the job for new
inexperienced mappers.

The other thing that has come up on the thread is the lack of validators.
Like Polyglot I'm tired of seeing the same mistakes made over and over
again.  I've cut back on validating to a single project at the moment.
I've left messages for a number of mappers only to see them make the same
mistakes a week or so later and these are mappers I've given feedback to
within 24 hours of their mapping.  Yes there are some who have gone on to
become solid mappers but they aren't the majority.

At the moment I'm loading in sections of the map and correcting crossing
ways, highways that almost meet etc. normally without feedback.  It cleans
the map up but it would be better if we could catch the mistakes before
they are made.  JOSM will warn about crossing highways before uploading.
I'm not sure if iD etc does but there are many many many of them.

If you want more validators or people to do more validation I think you
have to ask yourselves can the job be made more attractive in some way and
error prevention might help.

Cheerio John

On 11 April 2017 at 07:25, majka  wrote:

> I have to admit, I couldn't use iD for "bulk" mapping for the life of me.
> I find it suitable for the one-off mapping / for doing corrections only.
> But some mappers do and do well with this. You can find haphazardly mapped
> buildings and untagged ways and nodes using JOSM for mapping as well, just
> not as often.
> A better "building tool" for iD would help some but not for all of it.
>
> The fundamental problem is that some mappers fail to understand mapping
> isn't a race. Somehow, the number of edits / added buildings /
> changes became more important than precision. We are partly promoting this
> by looking at the number of edits to declare a mapper as experienced.
>
> I try to explain to the mappers that sometimes the work is done so badly
> that it would be better to do only one tenth of it but to do so correctly.
> As English is my third or fourth language, I struggle with the correct way
> to explain this, to get the right mix of being diplomatic and to get
> through - above all when I am shouting and swearing in my head at the
> person who has done the mapping.
>
> If I could wish for one thing only to start every new mapper with, it
> would be this: Exact and precise mapping is more important than anything
> else. Do not map for quantity but for quality. And if unsure about tagging,
> look for help. In HOT tasks, read what is expected from you and do exactly
> so.
>
> Here comes the importance of earliest possible validation - to stop the
> bad habit from forming. New mappers (and old ones as well) would still make
> mistakes but we shouldn't ignore the systematic ones just because it is a
> new mapper and we don't want to be too hard on them.
>
> Everything else comes with experience, the speed of work as well. It is
> not a problem of HOT alone - locally, a new mapper without any experience
> has uploaded more than 100 changesets within the first 24 hours after his
> registration. Every single one of it has to be corrected somehow. Leave it
> long enough uncorrected and the map quality will degrade with tons of
> useless data obscuring the correct ones.
>
> We should somehow try to promote the idea that mapping isn't a speed race.
> There are not that many tasks really time critical and even then the real
> usefulness of tasks mapped just for speed is somewhat suspect. I would say,
> as there are more mappers available than validators, I cannot see any
> reason for "wasting" validator's time on remapping tasks. And remapping is
> what happens often when validation isn't done as soon as possible and
> fundamental mistakes are not caught early. I am often commenting on half
> finished tasks for this reason as well - no reason to leave the problems
> untouched until validation.
>
> Majka
>
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Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

[majka]

I have to admit, I couldn't use iD for "bulk" mapping for the life of me. I
find it suitable for the one-off mapping / for doing corrections only. But
some mappers do and do well with this. You can find haphazardly mapped
buildings and untagged ways and nodes using JOSM for mapping as well, just
not as often.
A better "building tool" for iD would help some but not for all of it.

The fundamental problem is that some mappers fail to understand mapping
isn't a race. Somehow, the number of edits / added buildings /
changes became more important than precision. We are partly promoting this
by looking at the number of edits to declare a mapper as experienced.

I try to explain to the mappers that sometimes the work is done so badly
that it would be better to do only one tenth of it but to do so correctly.
As English is my third or fourth language, I struggle with the correct way
to explain this, to get the right mix of being diplomatic and to get
through - above all when I am shouting and swearing in my head at the
person who has done the mapping.

If I could wish for one thing only to start every new mapper with, it would
be this: Exact and precise mapping is more important than anything else. Do
not map for quantity but for quality. And if unsure about tagging, look for
help. In HOT tasks, read what is expected from you and do exactly so.

Here comes the importance of earliest possible validation - to stop the bad
habit from forming. New mappers (and old ones as well) would still make
mistakes but we shouldn't ignore the systematic ones just because it is a
new mapper and we don't want to be too hard on them.

Everything else comes with experience, the speed of work as well. It is not
a problem of HOT alone - locally, a new mapper without any experience has
uploaded more than 100 changesets within the first 24 hours after his
registration. Every single one of it has to be corrected somehow. Leave it
long enough uncorrected and the map quality will degrade with tons of
useless data obscuring the correct ones.

We should somehow try to promote the idea that mapping isn't a speed race.
There are not that many tasks really time critical and even then the real
usefulness of tasks mapped just for speed is somewhat suspect. I would say,
as there are more mappers available than validators, I cannot see any
reason for "wasting" validator's time on remapping tasks. And remapping is
what happens often when validation isn't done as soon as possible and
fundamental mistakes are not caught early. I am often commenting on half
finished tasks for this reason as well - no reason to leave the problems
untouched until validation.

Majka
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Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

[Phil (The Geek) Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

 

One things for sure - you should never be able to upload anything from ID that 
is untagged. As for buildings I use both JOSM and ID. I think it just requires 
good instructions for either system. You get into a rhythm with either system 
so for me it comes back to good instruction as early as possible. I know some 
of my first attempts were hopeless as I didn't read anything, just plugged 
away. Hopefully I have gone back and corrected most.

 

Cheers - Phil - relative newbie (tastrax)

 

From: Jo [mailto:winfi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 7:33 PM
To: Shawn K. Quinn
Cc: hot
Subject: Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

 

Maybe we're explaining it to them wrong, somehow.

 

It's more likely that it's too easy to do it wrong though. These issues keep 
coming back and haunt us.

 

Anyway, I went in and tried it myself, once more.

 

'3' (to draw an area, I like keyboard shortcuts)

4 mouse clicks + enter or 5 mouse clicks, depending if you close the shape or 
not.

 

Pressing 's' along the way here has different outcomes. That's not the way to 
go.

 

Pressing enter gives back the dialog to turn it into a building (if you had 
mapped a building before). That's good.

Only now, the mapper should press 's' before moving on.

 

Knowing myself, I would also forget about that.

 

In JOSM I press 'b', then 3 mouse clicks and I have a building. Tagged and 
squared the way it should be.

 

If it's  L-shaped, I press 'x', double click on a side and extrude a part of it.

 

If I somehow got it wrong, I press 'w', move the nodes to the corners, then 
press 'q'. That's also what I do/did to fix all those unsquared buildings when 
validating tasks.

 

Polyglot

 

2017-04-11 7:46 GMT+02:00 Shawn K. Quinn :

On 04/11/2017 12:23 AM, Dale Kunce wrote:
> All this is a reminder to everyone to keep the language and intent of
> statements in a respectful manner. The iD developers and mainteners work
> very hard to manage the project and do a very good job. I know some of
> you have frustrations but please be respectful of others time and
> efforts as well.

I have a saying (from the would-be radio/TV producer in me): Sometimes
bleep happens, and sometimes it happens and there's no bleep.

I can understand the frustration from having to clean up "iD droppings"
(for lack of a better term). I have lost count of the number of slopped
down building outlines that aren't even close to the rectangular truth
on the ground (this is normal OSM i.e. non-HOT mapping). I've managed to
keep my changeset comments profanity-free despite my frustration, which
at times has been a challenge. That said it's hard for me to blame the
original poster for using that word in that context, I probably would
have said it the same way.

Admittedly some of the blame has to fall on the users for not knowing
how to use iD properly. It is possible to tag buildings correctly and
square them up to 90° angles with iD. I've done it before.

--
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com


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Re: [HOT] Mapping buildings something to think about

[Jo]

Maybe we're explaining it to them wrong, somehow.

It's more likely that it's too easy to do it wrong though. These issues
keep coming back and haunt us.

Anyway, I went in and tried it myself, once more.

'3' (to draw an area, I like keyboard shortcuts)
4 mouse clicks + enter or 5 mouse clicks, depending if you close the shape
or not.

Pressing 's' along the way here has different outcomes. That's not the way
to go.

Pressing enter gives back the dialog to turn it into a building (if you had
mapped a building before). That's good.
Only now, the mapper should press 's' before moving on.

Knowing myself, I would also forget about that.

In JOSM I press 'b', then 3 mouse clicks and I have a building. Tagged and
squared the way it should be.

If it's  L-shaped, I press 'x', double click on a side and extrude a part
of it.

If I somehow got it wrong, I press 'w', move the nodes to the corners, then
press 'q'. That's also what I do/did to fix all those unsquared buildings
when validating tasks.

Polyglot

2017-04-11 7:46 GMT+02:00 Shawn K. Quinn :

> On 04/11/2017 12:23 AM, Dale Kunce wrote:
> > All this is a reminder to everyone to keep the language and intent of
> > statements in a respectful manner. The iD developers and mainteners work
> > very hard to manage the project and do a very good job. I know some of
> > you have frustrations but please be respectful of others time and
> > efforts as well.
>
> I have a saying (from the would-be radio/TV producer in me): Sometimes
> bleep happens, and sometimes it happens and there's no bleep.
>
> I can understand the frustration from having to clean up "iD droppings"
> (for lack of a better term). I have lost count of the number of slopped
> down building outlines that aren't even close to the rectangular truth
> on the ground (this is normal OSM i.e. non-HOT mapping). I've managed to
> keep my changeset comments profanity-free despite my frustration, which
> at times has been a challenge. That said it's hard for me to blame the
> original poster for using that word in that context, I probably would
> have said it the same way.
>
> Admittedly some of the blame has to fall on the users for not knowing
> how to use iD properly. It is possible to tag buildings correctly and
> square them up to 90° angles with iD. I've done it before.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
> http://www.rantroulette.com
> http://www.skqrecordquest.com
>
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