Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Dave Morriss via Hpr]

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now for 
work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a Windows 
screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe all major 
screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.


Just to keep everyone up to date, I made some tweaks to the tags page to 
try to make it more accessible. I emailed Mike about the latest changes 
and, I think I'm right in saying, he finds it a lot more usable.


The changes have been:

- Add a header at the start of each alphabetic tag section. Mike says he 
 can navigate by headers, and this was a change he suggested.


- Add an 'aria-label' attribute to each show link that contains:
the tag
a hyphen
the word 'show'
the show number

An example of the latter might be:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

kate:
http://hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=1840";
target="_blank" aria-label="kate - show 1840">1840,
http://hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=2055";
target="_blank" aria-label="kate - show 2055">2055

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This change makes the links associated with the tag more meaningful when 
using a screen reader.


Please let us know if there are more accessibility issues we need to 
tackle on the HPR site!


Dave

--
Dave Morriss, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK | perl...@autistici.org


___
Hpr mailing list
Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Dave Morriss via Hpr]

On 03/08/2022 06:16, Mike Ray wrote:


Reading further down your email than I did before Ken, this solution 
would work, if the tag subject were included in the first anchor in a 
list of tags for that subject.


Hi Mike,

Sorry to have taken several days to reply. Life got in the way a little.

I've been fairly brutal with removing previous stuff in the email thread 
too, but I hope I can address them nevertheless.


I take your point about the multiple 'here' links, but I hadn't quite 
realised how unpleasant my list of show numbers after each tag was to a 
screen reader user.


I did battle with Orca for an hour or two and began to get the idea.

So, since Wednesday I managed to regenerate the tags page with the 
headings you suggested (in the message with the title "More about tag 
a11y"). I also added 'aria-label' attributes to the  tags. At the 
moment these contain stuff like "Tag kafka: show 3639". I found that 
Orca would read these, but I have no idea if other screen readers would. 
I also seriously doubt that the current content is useful. However, it 
may be a thing to consider.


The other disadvantage of this is that Orca says the show number twice, 
once for 'aria-label' and again for the hyperlink itself. So maybe just 
having the tag in this label would be enough.


I will generate a new page (with a different name) which contains links 
on separate lines with the show number and title, and perhaps the 
associated tag. This will be very long and some tags will have many 
entries; I see the tag 'linux' has 264 entries for example! Worth a try 
though.


I will look at your alternative suggestions as well. Ken's suggestion is 
also worth testing out.


Dave

--
Dave Morriss, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK | perl...@autistici.org

___
Hpr mailing list
Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Dave Morriss via Hpr]

On 02/08/2022 17:46, Carl D Hamann wrote:
On Tue, Aug 2, 2022, 10:30 AM Mike Ray > wrote:


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to appear
on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the right
with the show numbers.


What if the tag name itself was a link to a page with just the shows 
related to that tag? That's a pretty common pattern I've seen around the 
web, and it would make more sense to have the show titles on such a 
page. My hunch is that only improves linear navigation if those links 
are either the only links on the page, or at least grouped together at 
the start of the page (before the show links) like a table of contents.


Just brainstorming,
- Laindir


Interesting thought.

At present the tag page in question is an offshoot of the project, now 
completed, to add tags and summaries to all shows. I separated the tag 
list ("index") from the main page about what work we still needed done 
because I thought it'd be a useful thing.


So the workflow was:
- Add new tags and summaries to the database
- Refresh the two pages
I'd normally do this as updates came in.

Now, I update whenever new shows are added, to make sure their tags are 
listed. I generate the pages locally on my desktop PC and upload them. 
So, the tag page is static and updated whenever there's a change.


There are currently 5837 tags in the system, so that would mean that 
number of tag-specific pages I guess.


Dave

--
Dave Morriss, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK | perl...@autistici.org

___
Hpr mailing list
Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Ken Fallon]

echo "bob reading Accessibility problem thread" >> owes-me-a-show.txt

--
Regards,

Ken Fallon (PA7KEN,G5KEN)
https://kenfallon.com
https://hackerpublicradio.org/hosts/ken_fallon


On 2022-08-03 10:27, Bob Jonkman wrote:

You know, this entire thread would make a great HPR episode.

--Bob, who's a fine one to talk about *other* people making episodes...


(actually, I'm willing to read this e-mail thread into a microphone 
and make an episode out of it. But I'm visually dependent, so while I 
think I understand the problem and the solution, I'm no a11y expert)




On 2022-08-03 01:16, Mike Ray wrote:



Reading further down your email than I did before Ken, this solution 
would work, if the tag subject were included in the first anchor in a 
list of tags for that subject.





On 02/08/2022 17:39, Ken Fallon wrote:

I think I understand the problem

We have the search text and then the episode number(s) where that 
keyword appears


kafka: 3639
kali linux: 1457

So when you search for kafka you would land on "3639" which you 
hear. is fine as that is the show for kafka


But you cannot see if there are 2 or more shows for kafka

As when you tab again you hear the text "1457" which is not about 
kafka but in fact kali linux.


If someone else records a show about kafka then we would have

kafka: 3639, 
kali linux: 1457

So the search to kafka would then go to 3639, then , and then 1457

There is no indication to show which link is about kafka.

Is that the problem ?

If so then would the solution be to have the tag included in the 
first link


So the first hyperlink would be "kafka: 3639"

The second would just be ""  and then on for as many shows as 
there are.


When you jump to the next tag you would hear "kali linux: 1457" and 
then any other show numbers


Is that a solution ?

Or should we just have each tag as a heading and then each show 
having it's own line with a complete line of title text ?



regards

Ken.



On 2022-08-02 17:29, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello Dave

Apologies for top-posting.

If you can get your hands on the bootstrap3 style css, search for 
'sr-only'.


I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag "a11y" with a link 
to a bogus show, and when you have done that let me know.


Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop, so any 
style applied will be applied to all?


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to 
appear on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to 
the right with the show numbers.


I'm sorry to moan about this, but running down a list is very, very 
annoying when meaningful entry is not included in the link.


In the case of the HPR tags page, I just get number after number, 
and on a lot of pages, as I suggested before, it is only ever the 
word 'here' that is linked.


Jumping either forwards or backwards through links with 'k' or 
'shift k', I have no idea when I have landed on a link I want.


Perhaps we can do some trials, and give me the nod each time you 
made an update.



PHP? Yuck. Dancer2 is where it's at Dave. All the Perl happenin' 
dudes are there.



Mike








On 02/08/2022 14:17, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right 
now for work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I 
found:


• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a 
Windows screen reader, all I get is number after number. I 
believe all major screen readers include a key to jump from link 
to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the 
full text that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in 
"click here to learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find 
the link about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just 
"here, here, here, here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am 
one of those people who screw up the stats, because I delete most 
shows based on the title, after making sure it is not one of my 
"must listen" list of hosts. Linux Inlaws is not one of those.


Mike


Hi Mike,

I must apologise for this problem; the page is something I 
designed and constructed myself. For new readers, we're talking 
about https://hackerpublicradio.org/tags.php.


I wanted the page to be like an index in a book with the keyword 
(tag) on the left, followed by a list of the page (show) numbers. 
As I designed this it seemed that each link was best presented as 
a number. I didn't know that screen readers would

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Bob Jonkman]

You know, this entire thread would make a great HPR episode.

--Bob, who's a fine one to talk about *other* people making episodes...


(actually, I'm willing to read this e-mail thread into a microphone and 
make an episode out of it. But I'm visually dependent, so while I think 
I understand the problem and the solution, I'm no a11y expert)




On 2022-08-03 01:16, Mike Ray wrote:



Reading further down your email than I did before Ken, this solution 
would work, if the tag subject were included in the first anchor in a 
list of tags for that subject.





On 02/08/2022 17:39, Ken Fallon wrote:

I think I understand the problem

We have the search text and then the episode number(s) where that 
keyword appears


kafka: 3639
kali linux: 1457

So when you search for kafka you would land on "3639" which you hear. 
is fine as that is the show for kafka


But you cannot see if there are 2 or more shows for kafka

As when you tab again you hear the text "1457" which is not about 
kafka but in fact kali linux.


If someone else records a show about kafka then we would have

kafka: 3639, 
kali linux: 1457

So the search to kafka would then go to 3639, then , and then 1457

There is no indication to show which link is about kafka.

Is that the problem ?

If so then would the solution be to have the tag included in the first 
link


So the first hyperlink would be "kafka: 3639"

The second would just be ""  and then on for as many shows as 
there are.


When you jump to the next tag you would hear "kali linux: 1457" and 
then any other show numbers


Is that a solution ?

Or should we just have each tag as a heading and then each show having 
it's own line with a complete line of title text ?



regards

Ken.



On 2022-08-02 17:29, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello Dave

Apologies for top-posting.

If you can get your hands on the bootstrap3 style css, search for 
'sr-only'.


I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag "a11y" with a link to 
a bogus show, and when you have done that let me know.


Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop, so any 
style applied will be applied to all?


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to 
appear on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the 
right with the show numbers.


I'm sorry to moan about this, but running down a list is very, very 
annoying when meaningful entry is not included in the link.


In the case of the HPR tags page, I just get number after number, and 
on a lot of pages, as I suggested before, it is only ever the word 
'here' that is linked.


Jumping either forwards or backwards through links with 'k' or 'shift 
k', I have no idea when I have landed on a link I want.


Perhaps we can do some trials, and give me the nod each time you made 
an update.



PHP? Yuck. Dancer2 is where it's at Dave. All the Perl happenin' 
dudes are there.



Mike








On 02/08/2022 14:17, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now 
for work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a 
Windows screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe 
all major screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the full 
text that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in "click 
here to learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find the 
link about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just "here, 
here, here, here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am one 
of those people who screw up the stats, because I delete most shows 
based on the title, after making sure it is not one of my "must 
listen" list of hosts. Linux Inlaws is not one of those.


Mike


Hi Mike,

I must apologise for this problem; the page is something I designed 
and constructed myself. For new readers, we're talking about 
https://hackerpublicradio.org/tags.php.


I wanted the page to be like an index in a book with the keyword 
(tag) on the left, followed by a list of the page (show) numbers. As 
I designed this it seemed that each link was best presented as a 
number. I didn't know that screen readers would cope badly with this.


I'm wondering if there's a way of including text that would help a 
screen reader while leaving the list of show numbers as it is.


I was unavailable this morning but I have just tried doing what som

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Mike Ray]

Reading further down your email than I did before Ken, this solution 
would work, if the tag subject were included in the first anchor in a 
list of tags for that subject.





On 02/08/2022 17:39, Ken Fallon wrote:

I think I understand the problem

We have the search text and then the episode number(s) where that 
keyword appears


kafka: 3639
kali linux: 1457

So when you search for kafka you would land on "3639" which you hear. is 
fine as that is the show for kafka


But you cannot see if there are 2 or more shows for kafka

As when you tab again you hear the text "1457" which is not about kafka 
but in fact kali linux.


If someone else records a show about kafka then we would have

kafka: 3639, 
kali linux: 1457

So the search to kafka would then go to 3639, then , and then 1457

There is no indication to show which link is about kafka.

Is that the problem ?

If so then would the solution be to have the tag included in the first link

So the first hyperlink would be "kafka: 3639"

The second would just be ""  and then on for as many shows as there 
are.


When you jump to the next tag you would hear "kali linux: 1457" and then 
any other show numbers


Is that a solution ?

Or should we just have each tag as a heading and then each show having 
it's own line with a complete line of title text ?



regards

Ken.



On 2022-08-02 17:29, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello Dave

Apologies for top-posting.

If you can get your hands on the bootstrap3 style css, search for 
'sr-only'.


I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag "a11y" with a link to a 
bogus show, and when you have done that let me know.


Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop, so any 
style applied will be applied to all?


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to appear 
on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the right 
with the show numbers.


I'm sorry to moan about this, but running down a list is very, very 
annoying when meaningful entry is not included in the link.


In the case of the HPR tags page, I just get number after number, and 
on a lot of pages, as I suggested before, it is only ever the word 
'here' that is linked.


Jumping either forwards or backwards through links with 'k' or 'shift 
k', I have no idea when I have landed on a link I want.


Perhaps we can do some trials, and give me the nod each time you made 
an update.



PHP? Yuck. Dancer2 is where it's at Dave. All the Perl happenin' dudes 
are there.



Mike








On 02/08/2022 14:17, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now 
for work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a 
Windows screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe 
all major screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the full 
text that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in "click 
here to learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find the 
link about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just "here, 
here, here, here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am one 
of those people who screw up the stats, because I delete most shows 
based on the title, after making sure it is not one of my "must 
listen" list of hosts. Linux Inlaws is not one of those.


Mike


Hi Mike,

I must apologise for this problem; the page is something I designed 
and constructed myself. For new readers, we're talking about 
https://hackerpublicradio.org/tags.php.


I wanted the page to be like an index in a book with the keyword 
(tag) on the left, followed by a list of the page (show) numbers. As 
I designed this it seemed that each link was best presented as a 
number. I didn't know that screen readers would cope badly with this.


I'm wondering if there's a way of including text that would help a 
screen reader while leaving the list of show numbers as it is.


I was unavailable this morning but I have just tried doing what some 
accessibility advice I found suggests: namely giving each link to a 
show a 'text' attribute. In experiment one I added the show title there.


I saw the warnings that many screen readers will not use this 
attribute. I also wonder if this will have the effect of making the 
page excessively complex for screen readers that do use it. Using 
this text has the advantage for sighted use

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Mike Ray]

Let me see if I can explain this in simple terms with a list.


Imagine this list on a Web site, and I am not going to put HTML here, 
since a) emails with HTML in are a crime against humanity, and b) it 
might upset the email clients folks have set for HTML and not plain text:


Click here to go to the foot of our stairs.
Click here to eat vanilla ice cream.
Click here to get rid of all right-wing governments forever.
Click here to restore human rights across mainland Europe.
Click here if you think eSpeak is the best TTS engine ever.


There are five entries in that list. If each sentence only had the word 
'here' included in the anchor, then starting from the top, and using the 
navigation key the screen reader provides for jumping through links, I 
would hear "here, here, here, here, here".


About as useful as a chocolate tea pot, since I would not know what each 
of those 'here' things were.


I'm aware that if you are not using a screen reader yourself, this is 
hard to understand. And just using a screen reader to test this stuff is 
hard, since getting to the point where you are relaxed and familiar with 
a screen reader takes time.


I will see if I can work out a way to record the text from my screen 
reader while I 'k' down through a list of links of tags on HPR. 
Presumably the 'eSpeak' tag list must be longer than War & Peace :)


Mike









On 02/08/2022 17:39, Ken Fallon wrote:

I think I understand the problem

We have the search text and then the episode number(s) where that 
keyword appears


kafka: 3639
kali linux: 1457

So when you search for kafka you would land on "3639" which you hear. is 
fine as that is the show for kafka


But you cannot see if there are 2 or more shows for kafka

As when you tab again you hear the text "1457" which is not about kafka 
but in fact kali linux.


If someone else records a show about kafka then we would have

kafka: 3639, 
kali linux: 1457

So the search to kafka would then go to 3639, then , and then 1457

There is no indication to show which link is about kafka.

Is that the problem ?

If so then would the solution be to have the tag included in the first link

So the first hyperlink would be "kafka: 3639"

The second would just be ""  and then on for as many shows as there 
are.


When you jump to the next tag you would hear "kali linux: 1457" and then 
any other show numbers


Is that a solution ?

Or should we just have each tag as a heading and then each show having 
it's own line with a complete line of title text ?



regards

Ken.



On 2022-08-02 17:29, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello Dave

Apologies for top-posting.

If you can get your hands on the bootstrap3 style css, search for 
'sr-only'.


I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag "a11y" with a link to a 
bogus show, and when you have done that let me know.


Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop, so any 
style applied will be applied to all?


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to appear 
on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the right 
with the show numbers.


I'm sorry to moan about this, but running down a list is very, very 
annoying when meaningful entry is not included in the link.


In the case of the HPR tags page, I just get number after number, and 
on a lot of pages, as I suggested before, it is only ever the word 
'here' that is linked.


Jumping either forwards or backwards through links with 'k' or 'shift 
k', I have no idea when I have landed on a link I want.


Perhaps we can do some trials, and give me the nod each time you made 
an update.



PHP? Yuck. Dancer2 is where it's at Dave. All the Perl happenin' dudes 
are there.



Mike








On 02/08/2022 14:17, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now 
for work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a 
Windows screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe 
all major screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the full 
text that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in "click 
here to learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find the 
link about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just "here, 
here, here, here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am one 
of those people who screw up the stats, be

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Carl D Hamann]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2022, 10:30 AM Mike Ray  wrote:

> And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to appear
> on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the right
> with the show numbers.
>

What if the tag name itself was a link to a page with just the shows
related to that tag? That's a pretty common pattern I've seen around the
web, and it would make more sense to have the show titles on such a page.
My hunch is that only improves linear navigation if those links are either
the only links on the page, or at least grouped together at the start of
the page (before the show links) like a table of contents.

Just brainstorming,
- Laindir

>
___
Hpr mailing list
Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Ken Fallon]

I think I understand the problem

We have the search text and then the episode number(s) where that 
keyword appears


kafka: 3639
kali linux: 1457

So when you search for kafka you would land on "3639" which you hear. is 
fine as that is the show for kafka


But you cannot see if there are 2 or more shows for kafka

As when you tab again you hear the text "1457" which is not about kafka 
but in fact kali linux.


If someone else records a show about kafka then we would have

kafka: 3639, 
kali linux: 1457

So the search to kafka would then go to 3639, then , and then 1457

There is no indication to show which link is about kafka.

Is that the problem ?

If so then would the solution be to have the tag included in the first link

So the first hyperlink would be "kafka: 3639"

The second would just be ""  and then on for as many shows as there are.

When you jump to the next tag you would hear "kali linux: 1457" and then 
any other show numbers


Is that a solution ?

Or should we just have each tag as a heading and then each show having 
it's own line with a complete line of title text ?



regards

Ken.



On 2022-08-02 17:29, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello Dave

Apologies for top-posting.

If you can get your hands on the bootstrap3 style css, search for 
'sr-only'.


I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag "a11y" with a link to a 
bogus show, and when you have done that let me know.


Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop, so any 
style applied will be applied to all?


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to appear 
on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the right 
with the show numbers.


I'm sorry to moan about this, but running down a list is very, very 
annoying when meaningful entry is not included in the link.


In the case of the HPR tags page, I just get number after number, and 
on a lot of pages, as I suggested before, it is only ever the word 
'here' that is linked.


Jumping either forwards or backwards through links with 'k' or 'shift 
k', I have no idea when I have landed on a link I want.


Perhaps we can do some trials, and give me the nod each time you made 
an update.



PHP? Yuck. Dancer2 is where it's at Dave. All the Perl happenin' dudes 
are there.



Mike








On 02/08/2022 14:17, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now 
for work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a 
Windows screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe 
all major screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the full 
text that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in "click 
here to learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find the 
link about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just "here, 
here, here, here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am one 
of those people who screw up the stats, because I delete most shows 
based on the title, after making sure it is not one of my "must 
listen" list of hosts. Linux Inlaws is not one of those.


Mike


Hi Mike,

I must apologise for this problem; the page is something I designed 
and constructed myself. For new readers, we're talking about 
https://hackerpublicradio.org/tags.php.


I wanted the page to be like an index in a book with the keyword 
(tag) on the left, followed by a list of the page (show) numbers. As 
I designed this it seemed that each link was best presented as a 
number. I didn't know that screen readers would cope badly with this.


I'm wondering if there's a way of including text that would help a 
screen reader while leaving the list of show numbers as it is.


I was unavailable this morning but I have just tried doing what some 
accessibility advice I found suggests: namely giving each link to a 
show a 'text' attribute. In experiment one I added the show title there.


I saw the warnings that many screen readers will not use this 
attribute. I also wonder if this will have the effect of making the 
page excessively complex for screen readers that do use it. Using 
this text has the advantage for sighted users that hovering over each 
link shows what the episode is about.


I found many references to 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications' 
(ARIA) in my research, and see that I could add these types of 
attributes.


What do

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Mike Ray]

Hello Dave

Apologies for top-posting.

If you can get your hands on the bootstrap3 style css, search for 'sr-only'.

I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag "a11y" with a link to a 
bogus show, and when you have done that let me know.


Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop, so any style 
applied will be applied to all?


And I guess what you mean buy index is that you want any tag to appear 
on the page only once, but then be followed by a column to the right 
with the show numbers.


I'm sorry to moan about this, but running down a list is very, very 
annoying when meaningful entry is not included in the link.


In the case of the HPR tags page, I just get number after number, and on 
a lot of pages, as I suggested before, it is only ever the word 'here' 
that is linked.


Jumping either forwards or backwards through links with 'k' or 'shift 
k', I have no idea when I have landed on a link I want.


Perhaps we can do some trials, and give me the nod each time you made an 
update.



PHP? Yuck. Dancer2 is where it's at Dave. All the Perl happenin' dudes 
are there.



Mike








On 02/08/2022 14:17, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now 
for work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a Windows 
screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe all major 
screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the full 
text that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in "click 
here to learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find the 
link about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just "here, here, 
here, here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am one of 
those people who screw up the stats, because I delete most shows based 
on the title, after making sure it is not one of my "must listen" list 
of hosts. Linux Inlaws is not one of those.


Mike


Hi Mike,

I must apologise for this problem; the page is something I designed and 
constructed myself. For new readers, we're talking about 
https://hackerpublicradio.org/tags.php.


I wanted the page to be like an index in a book with the keyword (tag) 
on the left, followed by a list of the page (show) numbers. As I 
designed this it seemed that each link was best presented as a number. I 
didn't know that screen readers would cope badly with this.


I'm wondering if there's a way of including text that would help a 
screen reader while leaving the list of show numbers as it is.


I was unavailable this morning but I have just tried doing what some 
accessibility advice I found suggests: namely giving each link to a show 
a 'text' attribute. In experiment one I added the show title there.


I saw the warnings that many screen readers will not use this attribute. 
I also wonder if this will have the effect of making the page 
excessively complex for screen readers that do use it. Using this text 
has the advantage for sighted users that hovering over each link shows 
what the episode is about.


I found many references to 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications' 
(ARIA) in my research, and see that I could add these types of attributes.


What do you think?

Dave




--
Michael A. Ray
Software engineer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

He/him/cis

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when 
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery




___
Hpr mailing list
Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org

Re: [Hpr] Accessibility problem

[Dave Morriss via Hpr]

On 01/08/2022 21:09, Mike Ray wrote:


Hello

I just spotted a glaring accessibility issue on the HPR site.


I just listened to the community news, published today, and heard 
mention of a show about Kafka. Which I need to know about right now for 
work.


So I went to the site and to the tags page.

Running down the list of tags that begin with the letter 'K', I found:

• kafka: 3639

That's fine, but only the 3639 bit is included in the link.

So, when I hit the 'k' button to navigate by links in NVDA, a Windows 
screen reader, all I get is number after number. I believe all major 
screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.


No idea which is the Kafka show.

So, the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the anchor.

I have mentioned this before, that anchors should include the full text 
that describe the link, not just the word 'here' as in "click here to 
learn about invisible giraffes with six legs".


I would want the whole thing in the link, so that I could find the link 
about invisible giraffes with six legs, and not just "here, here, here, 
here, here" AARGH!


I don't know how I missed that when it was published. But I am one of 
those people who screw up the stats, because I delete most shows based 
on the title, after making sure it is not one of my "must listen" list 
of hosts. Linux Inlaws is not one of those.


Mike


Hi Mike,

I must apologise for this problem; the page is something I designed and 
constructed myself. For new readers, we're talking about 
https://hackerpublicradio.org/tags.php.


I wanted the page to be like an index in a book with the keyword (tag) 
on the left, followed by a list of the page (show) numbers. As I 
designed this it seemed that each link was best presented as a number. I 
didn't know that screen readers would cope badly with this.


I'm wondering if there's a way of including text that would help a 
screen reader while leaving the list of show numbers as it is.


I was unavailable this morning but I have just tried doing what some 
accessibility advice I found suggests: namely giving each link to a show 
a 'text' attribute. In experiment one I added the show title there.


I saw the warnings that many screen readers will not use this attribute. 
I also wonder if this will have the effect of making the page 
excessively complex for screen readers that do use it. Using this text 
has the advantage for sighted users that hovering over each link shows 
what the episode is about.


I found many references to 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications' 
(ARIA) in my research, and see that I could add these types of attributes.


What do you think?

Dave

--
Dave Morriss, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK | perl...@autistici.org

___
Hpr mailing list
Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org