Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-26 Thread James Cameron 
I'm fine with that mission too.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-26 Thread Laura Vargas 
Hi all, Hola a todos,

In my opinion, the proposed mission is an improvement from the text
approved on January by former SLOBs, Still I believe we can do better. It
is a challenge to make it work in only one sentence without neglecting any
"sugar labs key concept", such as:

- community
- free/libre software
- support

Here is my try inspired from Walter's proposal:

"Sugar Labs is a community-run project whose mission is to support a
collection of free/libre software tools that facilitates learners to
discover, create, reflect, translate, share and appropriate such tools in
sustainable and creative manners".

En Español:

"Sugar Labs es un proyecto gestionado por la comunidad, cuya misión es
apoyar una colección de herramientas de software libre que facilita a los
estudiantes descubrir, crear, reflejar, traducir, compartir y apropiarse de
tales herramientas de maneras sostenibles y creativas".

Looking forward to your opinions.

Regards and blessings,

Laura Victoria


2017-04-21 16:48 GMT-05:00 James Cameron :

> Assent.
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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>



-- 
Laura V.
* I SomosAZUCAR.Org*

“Solo la tecnología libre nos hará libres.”
~ Laura Victoria

Happy Learning!
#LaMAgiaDelTiempo
#LearningByDoing
#Projects4good
#IMakeATSugarLabs
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-24 Thread Caryl Bigenho 
Tony Anderson... here's another +1


Caryl


From: IAEP <iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org> on behalf of James Cameron 
<qu...@laptop.org>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:04:21 PM
To: Tony Anderson
Cc: IAEP SugarLabs; sugar-devel; Dave Crossland
Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 05:10:36PM +0800, Tony Anderson wrote:
> Hey, I think we are making progress! I appreciate your loyalty to
> your employer.
>
> Thanks for clarifying that when I installed Sugar (sucrose) on
> Ubuntu I was installing the Debian package.
>
> My problem with SOAS is this page;
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation. It
> starts out by requiring the user to install Fedora to set up the
> livecd tools.

(a) yes, it's not the best guidance,

(b) it's a Wiki, so you are also responsible for editing it.

> The pages for Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora are much improved. The
> Debian on RPi3 needs an update.

Oh, wow, thanks, I wasn't aware of Debian_on_rpi3; what a useless page
of links.  I've replaced it with a redirect to the current Raspbian
page.

But I'm not your Wiki editing slave, get working on it yourself.

> Visitors to the sugarlabs site would
> appreciate a succinct and current list of supported software (as you
> do at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Releases), the 'Supported Systems'
> page was last touched in 2012.

No, you've missed that it includes the Supported distributions page,
which is updated regularly.  MediaWiki software has shown you the 2012
change date of the outer page, not the inner page.

You also missed that it shows Ubuntu 17.04 and Sugar 0.110, both of
which are post-2012.

> I find dd to be a simple, no fuss, no muss way to make the usb
> stick.

dd is also a quick way to destroy data on a disk.

> However, the web page could point to gui tools.

If you mean the
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation page, yes.

Fedora SoaS Desktop links to documentation from Fedora;
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/20/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/
and does point to good tool choices, though it was last updated for
Fedora 20 and is dated 2013.

Sugar Labs Wiki documentation is more ad-hoc, a mix of old and new,
from mainly the perspective of Thomas and Frederick; and recommends a
different method to Fedora.  It was updated in late 2016.

> The real goal is to promote the idea that Sugar is available to
> non-technical visitors for them to install on their own computer.

I'm looking forward to Sugar being available to non-technical visitors
for them to install on their own computer ... but I haven't seen that
happen yet.

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-24 Thread James Cameron 
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 05:10:36PM +0800, Tony Anderson wrote:
> Hey, I think we are making progress! I appreciate your loyalty to
> your employer.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that when I installed Sugar (sucrose) on
> Ubuntu I was installing the Debian package.
> 
> My problem with SOAS is this page;
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation. It
> starts out by requiring the user to install Fedora to set up the
> livecd tools.

(a) yes, it's not the best guidance,

(b) it's a Wiki, so you are also responsible for editing it.

> The pages for Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora are much improved. The
> Debian on RPi3 needs an update.

Oh, wow, thanks, I wasn't aware of Debian_on_rpi3; what a useless page
of links.  I've replaced it with a redirect to the current Raspbian
page.

But I'm not your Wiki editing slave, get working on it yourself.

> Visitors to the sugarlabs site would
> appreciate a succinct and current list of supported software (as you
> do at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Releases), the 'Supported Systems'
> page was last touched in 2012.

No, you've missed that it includes the Supported distributions page,
which is updated regularly.  MediaWiki software has shown you the 2012
change date of the outer page, not the inner page.

You also missed that it shows Ubuntu 17.04 and Sugar 0.110, both of
which are post-2012.

> I find dd to be a simple, no fuss, no muss way to make the usb
> stick.

dd is also a quick way to destroy data on a disk.

> However, the web page could point to gui tools.

If you mean the
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation page, yes.

Fedora SoaS Desktop links to documentation from Fedora;
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/20/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/
and does point to good tool choices, though it was last updated for
Fedora 20 and is dated 2013.

Sugar Labs Wiki documentation is more ad-hoc, a mix of old and new,
from mainly the perspective of Thomas and Frederick; and recommends a
different method to Fedora.  It was updated in late 2016.

> The real goal is to promote the idea that Sugar is available to
> non-technical visitors for them to install on their own computer.

I'm looking forward to Sugar being available to non-technical visitors
for them to install on their own computer ... but I haven't seen that
happen yet.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-24 Thread Tony Anderson 

Hi, Jonas

IAEP is the catch all list for things that are not development or 
localization. This is why it is filled with threads on
sugar organizational issues (the slobs list is not open so that slob 
issues are duplicated on iaep). Believe me, I would live

iaep to discuss education.

Tony

On 04/24/2017 05:50 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

Quoting Tony Anderson (2017-04-24 11:10:36)

Thanks for clarifying that when I installed Sugar (sucrose) on Ubuntu
I was installing the Debian package.

Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian.



My problem with SOAS is this page;
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation. It starts
out by requiring the user to install Fedora to set up the livecd
tools.

SoaS is a derivative of Fedora.

I fail to see the relevancy of discussing this at the IAEP list,
however: IAEP is an abbreviation of "It's an Educational Project",
emphasizing that the topic is pedagogics, not technology.

Please avoid cross-posting to multiple lists with different topic!



The pages for Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora are much improved. The Debian
on RPi3 needs an update.

It's a wiki: Update it yourself.  If you feel unqualified then contact
those you believe more qualified and encourage them to update it.

Since it is technical pages, reaching out at the IAEP list won't work.


  - Jonas



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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard 
Quoting Tony Anderson (2017-04-24 11:10:36)
> Thanks for clarifying that when I installed Sugar (sucrose) on Ubuntu 
> I was installing the Debian package.

Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian.


> My problem with SOAS is this page; 
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation. It starts 
> out by requiring the user to install Fedora to set up the livecd 
> tools.

SoaS is a derivative of Fedora.

I fail to see the relevancy of discussing this at the IAEP list, 
however: IAEP is an abbreviation of "It's an Educational Project", 
emphasizing that the topic is pedagogics, not technology.

Please avoid cross-posting to multiple lists with different topic!


> The pages for Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora are much improved. The Debian 
> on RPi3 needs an update.

It's a wiki: Update it yourself.  If you feel unqualified then contact 
those you believe more qualified and encourage them to update it.

Since it is technical pages, reaching out at the IAEP list won't work.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-24 Thread Tony Anderson 
Hey, I think we are making progress! I appreciate your loyalty to your 
employer.


Thanks for clarifying that when I installed Sugar (sucrose) on Ubuntu I 
was installing the Debian package.


My problem with SOAS is this page; 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation. It starts 
out by requiring the user to install Fedora to set up the

livecd tools.

The pages for Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora are much improved. The Debian 
on RPi3 needs an update. Visitors to the sugarlabs site would appreciate 
a succinct and current list of supported software (as you do at 
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Releases), the 'Supported Systems' page was 
last touched in 2012.


I find dd to be a simple, no fuss, no muss way to make the usb stick. 
However, the web page could point to gui tools.


The real goal is to promote the idea that Sugar is available to 
non-technical visitors for them to install on their own computer.


Tony

On 04/24/2017 12:50 PM, James Cameron wrote:

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:58:45AM +0800, Tony Anderson wrote:

My problem with this exercise is it again postpones action to
fulfill the mission.

The board is responsible for what it talks about and decides, and it
is not for me to complain about their prioritisation, since I'm not a
board member.

In my opinion, the board is not likely to take direct actions to
fulfill either of the mission statements, but they will make sure
nothing gets in the way of contributors who are working toward those
actions.

Some people are both board members and contributors; like Walter, and
anything he does which is a contribution isn't an action taken as a
board member.  Keep the ideas separate; this is a critical principle
of governance.

So what's getting in the way of contributors?


The most critical need (under any version of the mission statement)
is to make Sugar available on a wide range of contemporary platforms
so that we can escape the view that Sugar is locked to the XO. We
then need to wean developers and GSOC candidates from the
'development environment' so that they are testing Sugar by actual
use.

Go buy the latest One Laptop per Child product for a complete and
working Sugar desktop on a contemporary platform!  We are using Sugar
0.110 with about 40 activities pre-loaded!

Disclosure; my work is paid for by One Laptop per Child.


This doesn't appear to be as difficult as it appears. Ubuntu has
Sugar 0.106 available.

No, Ubuntu has Sugar 0.110 available.


Debian has a version which I hope to get running today.

Yay.  Same version, as it comes from the same place; because Ubuntu
uses the Debian packages unchanged.


A SOAS stick can be created by downloading the image and using
dd.

Who would use dd?  There are other tools promoted for this than dd.


However, no one has stepped up to make this prominent in the
website where browsers are likely to encounter Sugar.

It is prominent on wiki.sugarlabs.org and sugarlabs.org ("Get Sugar").

So your request is for search engine optimisation?  Where's Samson!


Google for sugar release is likely to take you to laptops.org (or
get you a wiki article on sugar).

Uh oh, you're in a filter bubble?  Please clear your browser history
or use a new private window before making such searches; there's no
way that a new Google Search user would find those sites in response
to such a query.  Mostly you get music videos, or SugarCRM software.


For marketing purposes Ubuntu and Debian are using sucrose as the
name.

No way!  (a) neither Ubuntu nor Debian market Sugar, and (b) that's
not what they use the name sucrose for.  It's for a package that
installs the Sucrose component of Sugar.


I think this can be confusing and is a leftover from Activity
Central.

No, it predates Activity Central.  You're thinking of Dextrose.
Sucrose was introduced by Walter Bender in his Sugar Digest of
2008-05-26 in reference to work by Simon Schampijer.  Activity Central
began involvement around 2010.

Still, Sucrose wouldn't be expected to be known or understood
by users, unless they are also acting as deployers.


So I believe there is real work to do,

Indeed, but not as you say.  ;-)



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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] motion for a new mission statement

2017-04-21 Thread James Cameron 
Assent.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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