Re: [IAEP] NetDispenser Project

[C . Cossé]

Hello James,

I am looking for allies and to stimulate new free software development
through creation of an effective tool for parents and teachers.

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 11:50 PM, James Cameron  wrote:

> Internet access costs are falling rapidly.
>
> "Kids earn their internet access" ... internet access as a currency
> has a very dynamic price, as access is sold, gifted, or shared by
> people at random times and with random pricing.  Motivation rapidly
> collapses in a dynamic price environment.
>

The device (R-Pi) merely hangs-off the home router, in the prototype use
case, i.e. at home.  Kids earn their access from their parents, or
teachers, as the case may be.  Also, the device can be put into wide-open
mode at any time, so it's just a tool for when it's needed.  I consider
data plans and other ways to get around the system as parenting issues.  It
works great for ages 5-12.


>
> Unpredictability of access creates a dopamine hit similar to poker
> machine gambling.  Best outcomes for non-addiction are seen from
> unrestricted and consistently available access at low cost.  Lowest
> cost for a child is adult-organised access by their care giver.
>

> Monetary achievements can work for some children, but only where they
> can operate in a free and open economy.  As economies vary in their
> support for children, my preference is to concentrate on the utility
> of the software and exclude consideration of considerations.
>

In the context of Sugarlabs I am more concerned with stimulating and
incentivizing new, free software development and new ideas.  Much like GSoC
seeks to do, but as a grass-roots, opensource effort as opposed to a major
corporate initiative.

>
> The license of Sugar and activities does not prevent your charge per
> use model, as the source code remains accessible and free to anyone
> who chooses to escape a walled garden.
>

I'm not suggesting to charge-per-use.  From the "Big Picture" section at
http://netdispenser.github.io:

> The mere mention of money raises eyebrows. My solution to aleviate
> concerns is to require a modest subscription fee to users who wish to
> utilize the platform, but to enable the subsriber to allocate 100% of their
> fee to the developer(s) of their choice.
>


>
> So this project would seem to be orthogonal to Sugar, and there's no
> stepping on toes anticipated.
>

Orthogonal only as far as not trying to be another Sugar, but aligned as
far as stimulating new innovations that are interchangeable with both
environments, Sugar(izer) and NetDispenser.


>
> May I suggest the following improvements;
>
> 1.  provide for a way for the kids to exchange credits with each
> other, which will give the money more value, and;
>
> 2.  add AI to detect inevitable gaming of the system,
>

I don't see why a kid would want to exchange credits with another.  We're
trying to create an ecosystem between users and developers, not an economy
between kids.


>
> Learning under duress has a long history, so I don't see a problem
> with learning still happening within a monetary system.
>

"Duress" need not be the case.  Design of fun activities is a challenge for
developers, and would be rewarded via p2p allocation of subscriptions.

>
> As a mechanism for remote supervision of children by an absent care
> giver, it does not seem likely to succeed.  Use cameras and
> microphones instead, combined with _random_ feedback to the children
> on what is observed.
>

It's not necessarily about "absent care givers".  Sometimes, as a parent,
it's nice to let kids motivate themselves without drama and constant
nagging.  It takes you, the parent, out of the loop.  Kids develop a
bird-birdfeeder relationship with the system and your house becomes more
peaceful so that you can get things done yourself.

-Charles


>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] NetDispenser Project

[James Cameron]

Internet access costs are falling rapidly.

"Kids earn their internet access" ... internet access as a currency
has a very dynamic price, as access is sold, gifted, or shared by
people at random times and with random pricing.  Motivation rapidly
collapses in a dynamic price environment.

Unpredictability of access creates a dopamine hit similar to poker
machine gambling.  Best outcomes for non-addiction are seen from
unrestricted and consistently available access at low cost.  Lowest
cost for a child is adult-organised access by their care giver.

Monetary achievements can work for some children, but only where they
can operate in a free and open economy.  As economies vary in their
support for children, my preference is to concentrate on the utility
of the software and exclude consideration of considerations.

The license of Sugar and activities does not prevent your charge per
use model, as the source code remains accessible and free to anyone
who chooses to escape a walled garden.

So this project would seem to be orthogonal to Sugar, and there's no
stepping on toes anticipated.

May I suggest the following improvements;

1.  provide for a way for the kids to exchange credits with each
other, which will give the money more value, and;

2.  add AI to detect inevitable gaming of the system,

Learning under duress has a long history, so I don't see a problem
with learning still happening within a monetary system.

As a mechanism for remote supervision of children by an absent care
giver, it does not seem likely to succeed.  Use cameras and
microphones instead, combined with _random_ feedback to the children
on what is observed.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] NetDispenser Project

[C . Cossé]

A couple more thoughts/clarifications:  by "without stepping on any toes" I
mean "to compliment the work of Sugarlabs without overlap".

Also, rather than adopt what I've proposed, I would just ask to do whatever
you can to facilitate a new approach to parenting/education and a new
approach to edu-floss developer incentivization.

It's risk-free and could make money in a way consistent with FOSS values.

Okay, I will self-silence unless you would like to continue, which I hope
you do.

Thanks,
Charles

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 2:04 PM, C. Cossé  wrote:

> Hi Walter & All,
>
> I do understand your point about most Sugar apps leaning towards
> open-ended construction.  With respect to that, I have successfully
> incorporated a few Sugarizer apps by simply establishing some threshold at
> which credits are awarded ... including Gears, Clocks, ABCDerium and my own
> open-ended app/contribution ColorMyWorld.  So I think it can be made
> relatively simple, but even that is not my purpose for writing to you.
>
> I'm trying to achieve two specific things 1) create an effective parenting
> / teaching tool, and 2) create incentive to stimulate new free edu-software
> development.
>
> If Sugar/Sugarizer contributors (past, present & future) can make a few
> bucks for their work, as well as another channel to publicize their work,
> then it should only serve to stimulate new innovation and development.
>
> I'm not competition, but I drool over your community, who are the
> "most-likely-to-participate-in-free-edu-software-development" people in
> the world, since they already are.  I'm trying to make it a more viable
> pastime without stepping on any toes.
>
> Regards,
> -Charles
>
> Review published today 3/16/18
> 
> NetDispenser Project Website 
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Walter Bender 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:44 PM C. Cossé  wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Folks,
>>>
>>> Here
>>> 
>>> is a more complete description of the grass-roots project which I proposed
>>> to sugar-labs a couple months ago.  I believe that it can stimulate
>>> development of free education software and provide "job opportunities" and
>>> incentive for young and old programmers, alike.   Perhaps "busking
>>> opportunities" would be a more appropriate term :)
>>>
>>
>> Charles,
>>
>> Many, if not most Sugar activities are not focused on completion of
>> specific tasks, rather that are oriented around open-ended construction.
>> That said, I am sure one could layer tasks on top of many activities, e.g.,
>> Turtle Confusion overlaid on top of Turtle Blocks. As far as how we'd
>> integrate these into the system you are building, I don't have any idea.
>>
>> regards.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>>>
>>> -Charles
>>> ___
>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> 
>>
>
>
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] NetDispenser Project

[C . Cossé]

Hi Walter & All,

I do understand your point about most Sugar apps leaning towards open-ended
construction.  With respect to that, I have successfully incorporated a few
Sugarizer apps by simply establishing some threshold at which credits are
awarded ... including Gears, Clocks, ABCDerium and my own open-ended
app/contribution ColorMyWorld.  So I think it can be made relatively
simple, but even that is not my purpose for writing to you.

I'm trying to achieve two specific things 1) create an effective parenting
/ teaching tool, and 2) create incentive to stimulate new free edu-software
development.

If Sugar/Sugarizer contributors (past, present & future) can make a few
bucks for their work, as well as another channel to publicize their work,
then it should only serve to stimulate new innovation and development.

I'm not competition, but I drool over your community, who are the
"most-likely-to-participate-in-free-edu-software-development" people in the
world, since they already are.  I'm trying to make it a more viable pastime
without stepping on any toes.

Regards,
-Charles

Review published today 3/16/18

NetDispenser Project Website 



On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Walter Bender 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:44 PM C. Cossé  wrote:
>
>> Dear Folks,
>>
>> Here
>> 
>> is a more complete description of the grass-roots project which I proposed
>> to sugar-labs a couple months ago.  I believe that it can stimulate
>> development of free education software and provide "job opportunities" and
>> incentive for young and old programmers, alike.   Perhaps "busking
>> opportunities" would be a more appropriate term :)
>>
>
> Charles,
>
> Many, if not most Sugar activities are not focused on completion of
> specific tasks, rather that are oriented around open-ended construction.
> That said, I am sure one could layer tasks on top of many activities, e.g.,
> Turtle Confusion overlaid on top of Turtle Blocks. As far as how we'd
> integrate these into the system you are building, I don't have any idea.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
>>
>> -Charles
>> ___
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> 
>
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] NetDispenser Project

[Walter Bender]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:44 PM C. Cossé  wrote:

> Dear Folks,
>
> Here
> 
> is a more complete description of the grass-roots project which I proposed
> to sugar-labs a couple months ago.  I believe that it can stimulate
> development of free education software and provide "job opportunities" and
> incentive for young and old programmers, alike.   Perhaps "busking
> opportunities" would be a more appropriate term :)
>

Charles,

Many, if not most Sugar activities are not focused on completion of
specific tasks, rather that are oriented around open-ended construction.
That said, I am sure one could layer tasks on top of many activities, e.g.,
Turtle Confusion overlaid on top of Turtle Blocks. As far as how we'd
integrate these into the system you are building, I don't have any idea.

regards.

-walter

>
> -Charles
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
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[IAEP] NetDispenser Project

[C . Cossé]

Dear Folks,

Here

is a more complete description of the grass-roots project which I proposed
to sugar-labs a couple months ago.  I believe that it can stimulate
development of free education software and provide "job opportunities" and
incentive for young and old programmers, alike.   Perhaps "busking
opportunities" would be a more appropriate term :)

-Charles
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
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