Re: [IAEP] Printing in Uruguay

[mokurai]

Copied to OLPC-SUR. We would be grateful if anyone felt like translating
this conversation into Spanish, and even more grateful if some of the
Spanish-speaking readers there would join this project.

I am about to make a section on the Ideas for Projects Wiki page for this
project...Done. Feel free to add ideas.

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Ideas_for_Projects#Printing

On Tue, May 17, 2011 2:12 am, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
> />moku...@earthtreasury.org wrote:
>  >Shall we take this discussion back onto the mailing lists?
> /
>
> Sorry, I was replying your mails, and not replying to the entire mailing
> list.

Understood.

> The printing Problem is one of the issues that we are talking from 2008,
> and a lot of people wrote about it, but nothing practical  was decided.
>
> -
>
> I Know that printing is not necessary, but teachers ask us how to print.
> May be in 50 years nobody will print , but now is a issue that maybe
> someone can solve-.
>
> Mr Mokurai asked me what he can do to solve that problem.
>
> I'm  from Uruguay, and here the deployment is "monopolized" by Plan
> Ceibal, we (the volunteers) can only change little things, but we can't
> change big things, like installing something in the school servers, o
> installing printers, etc etc.
>
> That's why it is very difficult for us to try to install something to
> solve the printing problem.
>
> For example: from other countries, many people told us: "do that and
> these, install that thing and this software, and the problem is solved"...
>
> We can not go inside a school installing or touching thing that belongs
> to a school!. We are volunteers, that means in legal words: "less than a
> fly".
>
> The server on each school is closed in a metal cage like a little
> fort-knox , nobody
> can touch the server, and most of the times the server is in a separate
> room that the "computer-room", in the cases that the school have one.
>
> --
>
> I Think that the "printing problem"_* may have two approaches: *_
> "_the big centralized solution_", or _"the little solution in a little
> school_".
>
> the "big solution" would be that Sugarlabs and/or Plan Ceibal install
> something in all the schools servers and all the Xos.
>
> This solutions does not concern me,

In English we call that a "boil the oceans" strategy.

> but maybe the second ...
>
> _*T**he second approach could be to try something in a little school*_,
> . For example, using the printer that a school already has, with a normal
> computer that that school already had, connected somehow to the Xos,
> with some software that can print.

And once that is working, we think about how to extend it to other
schools. I suggested having a student art show, and inviting children,
parents, teachers and administrators from other schools, local
politicians, perhaps even a Plan Ceibal person or two. No argument with
them is necessary. We just want them to see happy, smiling faces, and
perhaps hear what educational changes followed the availability of
printing.

It doesn't have to be art. A science fair with printed posters, or a
poetry or writing contest, or a photography exhibition, all would do.

It would be possible to have an exhibition on the children's own XOs, with
the children at hand to demonstrate their work, and to mention how much
the children would like to see their work printed out to exhibit when they
and their XOs are not there.

> For example: the first thing that may be done is printing a "Write
> document" (made on the XO), and printed using a school printer,
> connected to a computer with a web-printing software. or something
> similar.
>
> ---
>
>
> At this moment the teachers has a lot of problems printing something,
> because they have to use a USB penDrive to copy the file, saved in pdf
> or rtf, then taking the pendrive to someplace and with the fingers
> crossed she have to hope that on that computer she can open the .odt , o
> pdf,. or whatever.

Let us find as many teachers  as possible who are presently doing this,
and ask them to tell us about the value of printing for their students.
Let us also invite them into the project to find a better solution.

> -
>
> Connecting the School Xos with the normal PCs of the Scool it is
> impossible right now (on the Plan Ceibal Network).  The normal Computers
> can't connect with the "ceibal network".   The only PCs that connects
> are SOME teachers laptops and the XOs 1.0 .
>
> You need a user and password to connect to the "ceibal network", that is
> made so the people can't steal internet from the schools.
>
> --
>
>
> Possible solution N°1:
> -*We need a school, that has normal Pcs and one printer *(there are
> schools that already had computers and printers before OLPC). This is
> possible (not for all the schools, of couse)
>
> -*We need to co

[IAEP] Printing in Uruguay

[nanonano]

/>moku...@earthtreasury.org wrote:
>Shall we take this discussion back onto the mailing lists?
/



Sorry, I was replying your mails, and not replying to the entire mailing 
list.


The printing Problem is one of the issues that we are talking from 2008, 
and a lot of people wrote about it, but nothing practical  was decided.


-

I Know that printing is not necessary, but teachers ask us how to print. 
May be in 50 years nobody will print , but now is a issue that maybe 
someone can solve-.


Mr Mokuraui asked me what he can do to solve that problem. 

I'm  from Uruguay, and here the deployment is "monopolized" by Plan 
Ceibal, we (the volunteers) can only change little things, but we can't 
change big things, like installing something in the school servers, o 
installing printers, etc etc.


That's why it is very difficult for us to  try to install something to 
solve the printing problem.


For example: from other countries, many people told us: "do that and 
these, install that thing and this software, and the problem is solved"...


We can not go inside a school installing or touching thing that belongs 
to a school!. We are volunteers, that means in legal words: "less than a 
fly".


The server on each school is closed in a metal cage like a little 
fort-knox , nobody 
can touch the server, and most of the times the server is in a separate 
room that the "computer-room", in the cases that the school have one.


--

I Think that the "printing problem"_* may have two approaches: *_
"_the big centralized solution_", or _"the little solution in a little 
school_".


the "big solution" would be that Sugarlabs and/or Plan Ceibal install 
something in all the schools servers and all the Xos.


This solutions does not concern me, but maybe the second ...

_*T**he second approach could be to try something in a little school*_,  
. For example, using the printer that already have a school, with normal 
computer that already had that school, connected somehow to the Xos, 
with some software that can print.


For example: the first thing that may be done is printing a "Write 
document" (made on the XO), and printed using a school printer, 
connected to a computer with a web-printing software. or something similar.


---


At this moment the teachers has a lot of problems printing something, 
because they have to use a USB penDrive to copy the file, saved in pdf 
or rtf, then taking the pendrive to someplace and with the fingers 
crossed she have to hope that on that computer she can open the .odt , o 
pdf,. or whatever.


-

Connecting the School Xos with the normal PCs of the Scool it is 
impossible right now (on the Plan Ceibal Network).  The normal Computers 
can't connect with the "ceibal network".   The only PCs that connects 
are SOME teachers laptops and the XOs 1.0 .


You need a user and password to connect to the "ceibal network", that is 
made so the people can't steal internet from the schools.


--


Possible solution N°1:
-*We need a school, that has normal Pcs and one printer *(there are 
schools that already had computers and printers before OLPC). This is 
possible (not for all the schools, of couse)


-*We need to connect that computer* (the one that has the printer) to 
the "Ceibal NEtwork". This is possible too, (in theory).  We need an 
user and a password from PLan Ceibal to do that.


-We also need an* USB Dongle to connect that computer* to the AP of the 
School.  That dongle cost less than U$S 20 (american dollars)


-_We need_ a "*printer administrator*", a teacher or someone that is 
paid to do that work. This is the most difficult part because that 
person will be paid by the Primary School , not by Plan Ceibal.


- *We need some web-based software to manage the printer*, and it have 
to be administrated by the teacher.


That software dont' have to be a printer server, because the XOs dont' 
have the "print button", but it could be a software where the children 
uploads the files and later the teacher authorizes to print.


Initially it could be made for .odt files, or jpg, .rtf or pdf, hat is 
easy to print, and later we can think about printing from Etoys, 
"browse" , or other Sugar programs.


-


_The Things that the volunteers can do:_
-going to a school and help the teachers installing all that stuff.

_Things that are very difficult to solve by  the volunteers:_
-Have the permission of The Plan Ceibal to connect an external computer 
to the "Ceibal network" inside the school.
-Have the permission of the "Anep" (the Primary School) to touch the 
computers of the school.
-Obtain funds to make sustainable the printer:  buying the paper for the 
printer, the ink, and the time of someone (a Teacher, maybe) that will 
be the "printer adm

Re: [IAEP] Printing in Uruguay (was Re: OLPC in Science-Subjects --- NEED HELP!!!)

[Nicholas Doiron]

If XO printing or mobile printing could be set up easily, I think there
would be an activity or install by now.  I am waiting for Google Cloud
Print to open up more:
http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/p/cloudprint.html 
http://code.google.com/apis/cloudprint/docs/overview.html

Right now you can use their website and the Chrome browser to register
printers on Windows machines, and use a JavaScript API to order an online
PDF to be printed.

--
Nick

On Fri, May 13, 2011 11:40 pm, moku...@earthtreasury.org wrote:
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 2:30 am, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
>
>> />moku...@earthtreasury.org wrote:
>>
>>> It is straightforward to share Journal entries between XOs.
>>>
>
> although not over mesh networking.
>
>> *>..Printing is not necessary.*
>> /
>>
>
> I said also that printing was useful. Further comments below on your
> comments.
>
> It is possible to set up XOs to print, but it requires installing the
> CUPS
> printing package, and it means plugging into a USB printer for each job.
>
> What we want is a school server with a printer, and a robust way to use
> the wireless on the XOs to access it. Mesh networking is utterly unreliable
> in the classroom, so we have to fall back to regular WiFi and Jabber
> servers, or to a Web-based interface where one can upload a file or a
> Journal entry and schedule it for printing. There are a number of
> technical problems with this, which we need to put serious effort into
> fixing. We also have to work on the user interface.
>
> I will be happy to assist. Is anybody working on this in PLAN Ceibal?
>
>
> Step 1. Collect user requirements in the form of use cases
>
>
> * Who wants to print what, when, for what purposes?
> * Do lots of children want to print at the same time?
> * Is it acceptable to queue print jobs for later pickup?
> * Color or black & white, or a mixture?
> * Documents from other sources, or Journal entries, or printing from
> activities? * What sizes? (Metric vs. US; letter vs oversize and undersize)
>  * Should teachers schedule printing, or should students, or both?
> * How much printing can a school afford?
> * How will we manage permissions and privileges?
> * What else have you heard from teachers and students?
> * Which use case has highest priority?
>
>
> Step 2. Triage
>
>
> * Which use cases do we know how to support?
> * Which use cases are most important?
> * Who should decide what to do next?
> * What minimizes the current pain?
>
>
> Step 3. Implement first-cut solution
>
>
> * Who will do the work?
> * What oversight will there be?
> * How do we test the solution?
> * Did we solve the right initial problem?
>
>
> Step 4.
>
>
> * Lather, rinse, repeat
>
>
> I hope this helps.
>
>
> Who is willing to work on this problem?
>
>
>> Mr. Mokurai:
>>
>>
>> MAybe you are an expert in Education, and Xo, or SUgar development, or
>> teaching children,
>
> I reject the title of expert. I know a little, but mostly I know how
> little I know. I am Project Manager of the Sugar Labs project to Replace
> Textbooks with Open Education Resources, not because I know how to do it,
>  but because I am the only one who sees its importance as I do, and is
> willing to do the work, and to find out how.
>
>> but I think that you don't KNow the reality of the XOs here in Uruguay,
>> or somewhere that the teachers uses XO.
>
> My Spanish is bad, and I have not been to Uruguay, true. I am working on
> both of those problems. I know how I use my laptop and my two XOs, which
> does not include printing, unless an employer or a government agency
> insists.
>
>> *"Printing is not necessary"* is a very good statement , I agree, but
>> for the real people (not the theoretical children) is only a statement,
>> that is almost impossible to apply now. It is like saying "The peace is
>>  better than the war"... is a very good phrase, we all agree, but with
>> that phrase I can not solve the problems of the world.
>
> I have some ideas on peace, but they will take at least a generation to
> work out. I am counting on our millions of children to help out after they
>  learn how to work with each other around the world. See The Evolution of
>  Cooperation, by Robert Axelrod, for a theoretical outline of an
> approach.
>
>> The real world exists, and* in the real world the teachers wants to
>> print.*.  that is a fact, and We can not change it. Maybe in 30 Years the
>> mind of the Teachers will change, but not now.
>
> Yes, I am very clear on the difference between "want to" and "need to".
> It
> was one of the main topics of my seminary training.
>
>> MAybe in 30 Years this statement will be true, but now if you told a
>> TEacher that you can't print  is the same as saying _"don't use the
>> Xo's. You have a XIX century mind. The XO are made for XXII century
>> minds only"._..
>
> A XV century, pre-Gutenberg, approach works quite well, actually. We need
>  to adjust our thinking more than theirs.
>

[IAEP] Printing in Uruguay (was Re: OLPC in Science-Subjects --- NEED HELP!!!)

[mokurai]

On Fri, May 13, 2011 2:30 am, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
> />moku...@earthtreasury.org wrote:
>  >It is straightforward to share Journal entries between XOs.

although not over mesh networking.

> *>..Printing is not necessary.*
> /

I said also that printing was useful. Further comments below on your
comments.

It is possible to set up XOs to print, but it requires installing the CUPS
printing package, and it means plugging into a USB printer for each job.

What we want is a school server with a printer, and a robust way to use
the wireless on the XOs to access it. Mesh networking is utterly
unreliable in the classroom, so we have to fall back to regular WiFi and
Jabber servers, or to a Web-based interface where one can upload a file or
a Journal entry and schedule it for printing. There are a number of
technical problems with this, which we need to put serious effort into
fixing. We also have to work on the user interface.

I will be happy to assist. Is anybody working on this in PLAN Ceibal?

Step 1. Collect user requirements in the form of use cases

* Who wants to print what, when, for what purposes?
* Do lots of children want to print at the same time?
* Is it acceptable to queue print jobs for later pickup?
* Color or black & white, or a mixture?
* Documents from other sources, or Journal entries, or printing from
activities?
* What sizes? (Metric vs. US; letter vs oversize and undersize)
* Should teachers schedule printing, or should students, or both?
* How much printing can a school afford?
* How will we manage permissions and privileges?
* What else have you heard from teachers and students?
* Which use case has highest priority?

Step 2. Triage

* Which use cases do we know how to support?
* Which use cases are most important?
* Who should decide what to do next?
* What minimizes the current pain?

Step 3. Implement first-cut solution

* Who will do the work?
* What oversight will there be?
* How do we test the solution?
* Did we solve the right initial problem?

Step 4.

* Lather, rinse, repeat

I hope this helps.

Who is willing to work on this problem?

> Mr. Mokurai:
>
> MAybe you are an expert in Education, and Xo, or SUgar development, or
> teaching children,

I reject the title of expert. I know a little, but mostly I know how
little I know. I am Project Manager of the Sugar Labs project to Replace
Textbooks with Open Education Resources, not because I know how to do it,
but because I am the only one who sees its importance as I do, and is
willing to do the work, and to find out how.

> but I think that you don't KNow the reality of the
> XOs here in Uruguay, or somewhere that the teachers uses XO.

My Spanish is bad, and I have not been to Uruguay, true. I am working on
both of those problems. I know how I use my laptop and my two XOs, which
does not include printing, unless an employer or a government agency
insists.

> *"Printing is not necessary"* is a very good statement , I agree, but
> for the real people (not the theoretical children) is only a statement,
> that is almost impossible to apply now. It is like saying "The peace is
> better than the war"... is a very good phrase, we all agree, but with
> that phrase I can not solve the problems of the world.

I have some ideas on peace, but they will take at least a generation to
work out. I am counting on our millions of children to help out after they
learn how to work with each other around the world. See The Evolution of
Cooperation, by Robert Axelrod, for a theoretical outline of an approach.

> The real world exists, and* in the real world the teachers wants to
> print.*.  that is a fact, and We can not change it. Maybe in 30 Years
> the mind of the Teachers will change, but not now.

Yes, I am very clear on the difference between "want to" and "need to". It
was one of the main topics of my seminary training.

> MAybe in 30 Years this statement will be true, but now if you told a
> TEacher that you can't print  is the same as saying _"don't use the
> Xo's. You have a XIX century mind. The XO are made for XXII century
> minds only"._..

A XV century, pre-Gutenberg, approach works quite well, actually. We need
to adjust our thinking more than theirs.

> This is not my opinion, it's simply an observation of the real world
> that I see that here in Uruguay: _there are a lot of teachers that don't
> Use the XO_ because of lots of problems that it has (there are also
> other reasons that are non technical). One of those problems are the
> "printing problem".

As expected, until we get XOs into the full curriculum in the teachers'
colleges.

> 
>
> You said to "share the Journal".  Excuse me, Mr. Mokurai:_* *_Do you
> Know that the MEsh doesn't works?

Yes, I do. You can share journal entries on USB flash drives, or over
Jabber servers.

>  Even if you can share something,  The XOs hangs up, or loose the entire
> journal, and the children don't use the