Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
When I did my workshop on Etoys in the Philippines back in June, one kid did a "draft" of the same project in Scratch first using the pre-installed cliparts then did it in Etoys like I asked. It was a simple "knock knock joke" project with speech bubbles popping up when a moving bar touches a different color on the bottom of the page. For him the pre-installed cliparts made it easier for him to jump right into programming rather than spend so much time drawing things. However, some kids derived more satisfaction in using their own drawings. I personally like the latter. Incidentally, no one taught the child how to use Scratch and he didn't use it fully (never did a project in Scratch) till we got into conditional statements in Etoys. He started drawing parallels with Etoys. On our 2nd and 3rd day, he would always create his draft first on Scratch then do things in Etoys. It was a lot easier for him to "find" things in Scratch he says. I will check back with our teachers to see if more children are using Scratch. Our four teachers in the Philippines use Etoys in their lessons but that may be because I got them started with Etoys and they're just used to it now and don't want to change. Best, Cherry On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Steve Thomas wrote: > I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids > prefer Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys > for most learning and teaching. > > What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And > vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? > . > I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the > thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and > repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect > assumptions and prejudices ;) > > Stephen > P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not > looking for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has > its advantages and we need multiple. > > ___ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
Both Etoys and Scratch were done by some of the same people (especially John Maloney), and both are on top of Squeak Smalltalk. The original Etoys interface was more like Scratch's (small area for action results, most of the screen area used for showing tools, tiles, etc.). The first Etoys was aimed at the web (at Disney), and making the start up more obvious and using more screen for it is a good idea I think. The projects for the first Etoys were also like Scratch projects: effects, jokes, postcards, simple animations, etc. The next version of Etoys was for classrooms that would have much more help and do more ambitious projects. So we went to a full screen with flaps for the tools. This worked well in this setting. The OLPC XO presented a problem in that it had lots of pixels but a very small visual angle. We decided to stay with the classroom version, and I think this was a good idea on the one hand, but it went against the general lack of help that might be available in many of the XO's destinations. Then we handed Etoys over to the Squeak Foundation, and the version they put out online retains the classroom UI with flaps. Personally, I think the Scratch UI is better for many things than the Etoys UI, especially first encounters, which are so important for so many beginners these days. And I think the Scratch people have done a fantastic job on their web presence, including their gallery, the emulator for Scratch projects so you can see what they do, their online materials, etc. On the other hand, Scratch lacks a real media system, a massively parallel particle system, and many other features that are really needed and useful for learning things beyond simple programming. Etoys is much more complete in many more ways. Both systems have strong and weak points as to their language choices. Both lack nice extensions into more sophisticated programming. Both need to be greatly improved. And so forth. But I think in the world we live in, it is initial experiences that count in a non-classical culture (and this is most cultures around the world including the US). So we have to praise Scratch here, and wish that it had more depth. Etoys could easily be set up with a more useful exposed UI, and this would help tremendously in initial impressions. As to how many features to include, this is a tricky one. Scratch has quite a few features -- such as the thought balloon one -- because it was primarily initially designed for the "Computer Clubhouses", afternoon drop in experiences for junior high and high school kids. Etoys has fewer built in features because part of the "real deal" is to learn how to make your own features. It could have clip art, but we left it out because it is cognitively a good thing for children to learn how to draw. This is good for a "learning tool", but is not good for a "productivity tool". There is no question that both systems could be improved along the lines of their current styles. One could also imagine taking the lessons learned from both systems and inventing a new environment that is quite a bit better than either. I like this option the best. Cheers, Alan > >From: Steve Thomas >To: iaep ; naturalm...@googlegroups.com; squeakland >; scratc...@scratch.mit.edu >Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 7:04 PM >Subject: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys? > > >I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids prefer >Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys for most >learning and teaching. > > >What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And >vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? >. >I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the thoughts >of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and repeating them >will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect assumptions and >prejudices ;) > > >Stephen >P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not looking >for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has its >advantages and we need multiple. >___ >IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > >___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
Alan Kay wrote: > [...] > Then we handed Etoys over to the Squeak Foundation, and the version > they put out online retains the classroom UI with flaps. Actually, that would be the Squeakland Foundation. But in the Squeak Board at least Bert and I try to represent the interests of the Etoys (and Scratch) users. One reason for Scratch's popularity is the restrictions they have made which upset some people in the OLPC community. Etoys, on the other hand, suffered from some of the problems that open source projects have - students and teacher become very upset when some project they have created won't load into a newer version of the system. Note that I am fully on the side of Etoys here, but we have to be aware of the costs. It is interesting to me that Scratch's explict loops (compared to Etoys' clock driven scripts) don't seem to cause any difficulties for beginners nor for young children. That shows how important it is to test stuff rather than follow our intuitions. What I would really like (in the sense that I am trying to get funding to pay a group of people to build) would be a system within Croquet/Cobalt that would start out like Scratch, then become more and more like Etoys as the programmer's skills improved with a smooth path all the way to the Smalltalk level. Jens Mönig, the guy who did BYOB (Build Your Own Block extension of Scratch), also created Elements, which is a Scratch syntax for Smalltalk-80: http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=24 So it is easy enough to see how far this approach can scale. -- Jecel ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
Scratch looks a bit more sleek (modern?) and is a bit easier to use. I think these bits add up. I think Scratch has easier media tools, but I may be mistaken there - maybe I just don't know how to use Etoys media tools. Cheers, Maria Droujkova 919-388-1721 Make math your own, to make your own math On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Steve Thomas wrote: > I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids > prefer Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys > for most learning and teaching. > > What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And > vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? > . > I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the > thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and > repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect > assumptions and prejudices ;) > > Stephen > P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not > looking for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has > its advantages and we need multiple. > > ___ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
I have been using Scratch and Etoys with students in grades 5-8 for the past 4 years or so. In this work, I have seen an interesting pattern. The younger students (5th and 6th graders) ALWAYS prefer Etoys to Scratch. (I am talking here about first exposure).They love the drawing component and then being able to make their drawings move or do something. The older students ALWAYS prefer Scratch. They get the bricks metaphor right away and so can get things done very quickly. And sometimes students using Etoys get frustrated because there are so many options and choices and opportunities for functionality. What is also interesting is the degree to which the tools are owned by the students. Whichever one they are using starts to become a powerful form of expression for them so that, if given the opportunity, they will use it to complete projects and presentations, etc. I just wanted to add this experience to the conversation. Gerald On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Maria Droujkova wrote: > Scratch looks a bit more sleek (modern?) and is a bit easier to use. I > think these bits add up. > > I think Scratch has easier media tools, but I may be mistaken there - maybe > I just don't know how to use Etoys media tools. > > Cheers, > Maria Droujkova > 919-388-1721 > > Make math your own, to make your own math > > > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Steve Thomas wrote: > >> I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids >> prefer Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys >> for most learning and teaching. >> >> What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? >> And vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? >> . >> I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the >> thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and >> repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect >> assumptions and prejudices ;) >> >> Stephen >> P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not >> looking for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has >> its advantages and we need multiple. >> >> ___ >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> > > > ___ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys
gt;> > CC: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org; sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org; >> tabitha.m...@gmail.com >> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60 >>. >> . . >> >> > >> > 406.xx is far too old, I don't think any of the activities available on >> > Sugar Labs would be particularly compatible. Upgrade to a later build. >> > >> > -- >> > James Cameron >> > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ >> > ___ >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> > >-- >James Cameron >http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > > >-- > >Message: 5 >Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 22:04:17 -0400 >From: Steve Thomas >To: iaep , naturalm...@googlegroups.com, > squeakland , scratc...@scratch.mit.edu >Subject: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys? >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids prefer >Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys for >most learning and teaching. > >What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And >vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? >. >I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the >thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and >repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect >assumptions and prejudices ;) > >Stephen >P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not looking >for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has its >advantages and we need multiple. >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/attachments/20110902/52ba83e0/attachment-0001.html> > >-- > >Message: 6 >Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:03:42 -0700 >From: Cherry Withers >To: Steve Thomas >Cc: iaep , squeakland > , scratc...@scratch.mit.edu, > naturalm...@googlegroups.com >Subject: Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys? >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >When I did my workshop on Etoys in the Philippines back in June, one kid did >a "draft" of the same project in Scratch first using the pre-installed >cliparts then did it in Etoys like I asked. It was a simple "knock knock >joke" project with speech bubbles popping up when a moving bar touches a >different color on the bottom of the page. For him the pre-installed >cliparts made it easier for him to jump right into programming rather than >spend so much time drawing things. However, some kids derived more >satisfaction in using their own drawings. I personally like the latter. > >Incidentally, no one taught the child how to use Scratch and he didn't use >it fully (never did a project in Scratch) till we got into conditional >statements in Etoys. He started drawing parallels with Etoys. On our 2nd and >3rd day, he would always create his draft first on Scratch then do things in >Etoys. It was a lot easier for him to "find" things in Scratch he says. > >I will check back with our teachers to see if more children are using >Scratch. Our four teachers in the Philippines use Etoys in their lessons but >that may be because I got them started with Etoys and they're just used to >it now and don't want to change. > >Best, >Cherry > >On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Steve Thomas wrote: > >> I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids >> prefer Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys >> for most learning and teaching. >> >> What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And >> vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? >> . >> I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the >> thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and >> repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect >> assumptions and prejudices ;) >> >> Stephen >> P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not >> looking for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has >> its advantages and we need multiple. >> >> _
