Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Bill Kerrbillk...@gmail.com wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it Also if I am working on a project and remember an idea from a sample project then I can't just load the sample view the idea and then quickly return to my current project to implement there I have to close current project, then open sample and view idea, then close sample, then reopen current project, etc. Please correct if I am wrong about this This is certainly not the intended behavior, nor what I had been experiencing in my testing. Is this SoaS Strawberry? Which version of Turtle Art are you running? regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
Hi Bill, On 7 Sep 2009, at 12:09, Bill Kerr wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it This is not a bug with TurtleArt. It's (in my view) the major design backfire that is the Keep button... Keep is not like a copy, duplicate or 'save as' file operation in other OS environments. Sugars Keep is actually a (bad) attempt at Keep version snap shot, unfortunately no where in the Journal UI is this visually indicated/ referenced. Think of Keep a little like non-linear undo states stored to Journal. The problem with all this is that Sugar currently treats all versions you Keep from an activity as the same activity. You can only have one of the versions active at once, this is what you're seeing when you try to resume (what you think is another old activity is actually a version) and Sugar switches to the current version of it you already have open. To create fresh new activities, you need to: 1) start new activity 2) create masterpiece 3) stop activity 4) goto step 1 If you ever find yourself clicking Keep give your self a small jab in the hand with a sharp protractor ;-) In every release of Sugar to date, Keep == horrible design failure, even for the upcoming 0.86. The problem is the real deal (true versioning) is always just over the horizon, like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and the blasted button some how makes it through (and causes way more grief then it ever solves as the common use case is I want a duplicate copy of this). Regards, --Gary Also if I am working on a project and remember an idea from a sample project then I can't just load the sample view the idea and then quickly return to my current project to implement there I have to close current project, then open sample and view idea, then close sample, then reopen current project, etc. Please correct if I am wrong about this ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Bill, On 7 Sep 2009, at 12:09, Bill Kerr wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it This is not a bug with TurtleArt. It's (in my view) the major design backfire that is the Keep button... Keep is not like a copy, duplicate or 'save as' file operation in other OS environments. Sugars Keep is actually a (bad) attempt at Keep version snap shot, unfortunately no where in the Journal UI is this visually indicated/referenced. Think of Keep a little like non-linear undo states stored to Journal. The problem with all this is that Sugar currently treats all versions you Keep from an activity as the same activity. You can only have one of the versions active at once, this is what you're seeing when you try to resume (what you think is another old activity is actually a version) and Sugar switches to the current version of it you already have open. To create fresh new activities, you need to: 1) start new activity 2) create masterpiece 3) stop activity 4) goto step 1 If you ever find yourself clicking Keep give your self a small jab in the hand with a sharp protractor ;-) hi gary, I'm doing some of the barry newell 40 shapes challenge I posted on another thread Some of the shapes are related to other shapes eg. after I do shape 6 then I want to Keep that as BN6 then use it again to make BN7, etc So I change the name in the box from BN6 to BN7 and click Keep It does work similar to Save As ... If I go to the Journal and click the arrow on the right the image represents the different versions But the confusion arises when I try to open an old version and just get back to the currently open version So I can achieve something like Save As ... but can't achieve opening two versions at once, as you say In every release of Sugar to date, Keep == horrible design failure, even for the upcoming 0.86. The problem is the real deal (true versioning) is always just over the horizon, like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and the blasted button some how makes it through (and causes way more grief then it ever solves as the common use case is I want a duplicate copy of this). Regards, --Gary Also if I am working on a project and remember an idea from a sample project then I can't just load the sample view the idea and then quickly return to my current project to implement there I have to close current project, then open sample and view idea, then close sample, then reopen current project, etc. Please correct if I am wrong about this ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Bill Kerrbillk...@gmail.com wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it Also if I am working on a project and remember an idea from a sample project then I can't just load the sample view the idea and then quickly return to my current project to implement there I have to close current project, then open sample and view idea, then close sample, then reopen current project, etc. Please correct if I am wrong about this This is certainly not the intended behavior, nor what I had been experiencing in my testing. Is this SoaS Strawberry? Which version of Turtle Art are you running? hi walter, yes its SoaS Strawberry, I can't see how to check the version but I haven't changed the default version - I just had a look at the source but couldn't see the version number there regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
On 7 Sep 2009, at 15:03, Bill Kerr wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Bill, On 7 Sep 2009, at 12:09, Bill Kerr wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it This is not a bug with TurtleArt. It's (in my view) the major design backfire that is the Keep button... Keep is not like a copy, duplicate or 'save as' file operation in other OS environments. Sugars Keep is actually a (bad) attempt at Keep version snap shot, unfortunately no where in the Journal UI is this visually indicated/referenced. Think of Keep a little like non-linear undo states stored to Journal. The problem with all this is that Sugar currently treats all versions you Keep from an activity as the same activity. You can only have one of the versions active at once, this is what you're seeing when you try to resume (what you think is another old activity is actually a version) and Sugar switches to the current version of it you already have open. To create fresh new activities, you need to: 1) start new activity 2) create masterpiece 3) stop activity 4) goto step 1 If you ever find yourself clicking Keep give your self a small jab in the hand with a sharp protractor ;-) hi gary, I'm doing some of the barry newell 40 shapes challenge I posted on another thread Some of the shapes are related to other shapes eg. after I do shape 6 then I want to Keep that as BN6 then use it again to make BN7, etc So I change the name in the box from BN6 to BN7 and click Keep It does work similar to Save As ... If I go to the Journal and click the arrow on the right the image represents the different versions But the confusion arises when I try to open an old version and just get back to the currently open version So I can achieve something like Save As ... but can't achieve opening two versions at once, as you say I did just the same thing last year with a set of shapes from a Logo work sheet from one of the deployments, use keep to modify a previously similar TA setup. I got to about 30 before Keep got me into a total mess. In the end I had to take screen shots of each of the TA project tile sets, and manually recreate each so I could have several examples open at the same time. Using Keep will get you into even more hot water if you intend to share such examples via collaboration... As shared versions will be seen as the same activity, a remote user will likely just get whatever they version they first joined, then each time then join (what you may think is) a different shared activity example, they will just resume/switch to the previous one. The Keep button is quite the Sugar usability land-mine :-( I think Walter has added a new Save snapshot button to a recent version of TurtleArt to avoid just this very issue. Regards, --Gary ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:15 AM, Bill Kerrbillk...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Bill Kerrbillk...@gmail.com wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it Also if I am working on a project and remember an idea from a sample project then I can't just load the sample view the idea and then quickly return to my current project to implement there I have to close current project, then open sample and view idea, then close sample, then reopen current project, etc. Please correct if I am wrong about this This is certainly not the intended behavior, nor what I had been experiencing in my testing. Is this SoaS Strawberry? Which version of Turtle Art are you running? hi walter, yes its SoaS Strawberry, I can't see how to check the version but I haven't changed the default version - I just had a look at the source but couldn't see the version number there regards. -walter You can check the version from the list view in the Home View. If it is Strawberry, then updating Turtle Art will be a bit more complicated that for most activities (Turtle Art is installed in /usr/share/sugar/activities instead of the usual ~/Activities/). from the Terminal: su - rm -r /usr/share/sugar/activities/TurtleArt.activity reboot and then install a new version from activities.sugarlabs.org http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/downloads/latest/4027/addon-4027-latest.xo What you will get from more recent Turtle Art versions is a snapshot button that works like keep but generates a new Activity ID. Only if you have a new ID can you open a new instance at the same time as an old instance. BTW, did you know that you can copy/paste stacks to/from the clipboard? You type Ctrl-C to copy whatever stack is under the cursor to the clipboard. Ctrl-V will paste from the clipboard onto whatever TA project you have open. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] turtle art: 2 instances, no?
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Gary C Marting...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Bill, On 7 Sep 2009, at 12:09, Bill Kerr wrote: I can't see any way to load 2 instances on the SoaS version If I have a project loaded, saved and named Then go into the journal and try to load an older saved version then it doesn't load but puts me back to the current open version I have to first close the current version and then open the older version to get it This is not a bug with TurtleArt. It's (in my view) the major design backfire that is the Keep button... Keep is not like a copy, duplicate or 'save as' file operation in other OS environments. Sugars Keep is actually a (bad) attempt at Keep version snap shot, unfortunately no where in the Journal UI is this visually indicated/ referenced. Think of Keep a little like non-linear undo states stored to Journal. This is true. Perhaps we could make it more explicit by naming it Save a version instead. What we really need is a Keep a copy secondary action that can be used in the manner many desire, to create a clone of the instance with a separate activity ID. Equally important, we should have a Make a copy or Duplicate button in the Journal to enable this as a top level function there. Here's some more background reading: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2009-July/016494.html The problem with all this is that Sugar currently treats all versions you Keep from an activity as the same activity. You can only have one of the versions active at once, this is what you're seeing when This is actually another bug. On several of the threads discussing versions this came up, and it's clear that there is value to having multiple versions of the same activity instance open at once, specifically for the purpose of copying elements from an older version into a newer one. Revising Sugar to make this possible, regardless of when we land version support, would be beneficial. you try to resume (what you think is another old activity is actually a version) and Sugar switches to the current version of it you already have open. We also discussed that this might be a choice (to join the existing, or work on the older version). Eben To create fresh new activities, you need to: 1) start new activity 2) create masterpiece 3) stop activity 4) goto step 1 If you ever find yourself clicking Keep give your self a small jab in the hand with a sharp protractor ;-) In every release of Sugar to date, Keep == horrible design failure, even for the upcoming 0.86. The problem is the real deal (true versioning) is always just over the horizon, like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and the blasted button some how makes it through (and causes way more grief then it ever solves as the common use case is I want a duplicate copy of this). Regards, --Gary Also if I am working on a project and remember an idea from a sample project then I can't just load the sample view the idea and then quickly return to my current project to implement there I have to close current project, then open sample and view idea, then close sample, then reopen current project, etc. Please correct if I am wrong about this ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep