Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Cwi Jeret]

Thanks for all Your replays !

Cwi Jeret - Bank Hapoalim - T.A.

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Joe Zitzelberger]

On Jun 20, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 06/20/2005
   at 03:02 AM, Joe Zitzelberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:


I quoted those unrelated prices only to illustrate how absurd it
might be to only consider cost of hardware when making ones decision
on UCS tables.


Almost as absurd as mentioning DASD prices when the issue is RAM.
Certainly RAM prices have fallen, but they are *not* anywhere close to
DASD prices.


In the 30 years I've been watching the hardware market, their prices  
tend to move together, always falling over time.  But all hardware  
does that.  Conversely, the cost of programmer labor has sharply  
increased.  I mention DASD because I was shopping for it that day and  
had the prices at hand (read too lazy to hit www.pricewatch.com for  
RAM prices).  Plus the 80G for $19.95 has a nice shock-impact on  
those that will spend (waste) hours of human labor to squeeze every  
last byte out of something.


My view of the issue is that some people get tunnel vision about what  
the hardware can and cannot support based on long outdated  
assumptions.  For example, some people still think they are  
conserving on storage by using 3-byte adcons -- they haven't yet come  
to terms with the reality that the minimum possible size of a  
physical memory allocation is a 4k page.


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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 06/20/2005
   at 03:02 AM, Joe Zitzelberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I quoted those unrelated prices only to illustrate how absurd it  
>might be to only consider cost of hardware when making ones decision 
> on UCS tables.

Almost as absurd as mentioning DASD prices when the issue is RAM.
Certainly RAM prices have fallen, but they are *not* anywhere close to
DASD prices.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Glenn Miller]

I was requested to activate the Unicode Conversion services eariler this
year.  When I
determined that the pre-built image conversion tables would be about 39Meg
(9862 pages)
of real storage ( see APAR OA04069, Titled: AUTOMATIC LOADING OF PRE-BUILT
IMAGE FOR UNICODE SERVICES )
I too was concerned.  However, the question was: Where is this pre-built
image stored
in virtual storage.  So I opened an ETR with IBM to ask that question.
IBM's answer was
in the common dataspace  ( as Roland Schiradin indicated ).  Also, IBM
indicated that
the occupied virtual storage in that dataspace would be page-fixed, thats
were the
requirement for 39Meg (9862 pages) of real storage.  My next question was:
Where
in real storage? The answer from IBM was: Below the 2Gig line.  I'm not
sure why it
makes a difference to page-fix that storage below the 2Gig line, but it is
what it is.

It would have been helpful for APAR: OA04069 to have this information.

HTH

Glenn Miller

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Steve Comstock]

Joe Zitzelberger wrote:
37 MB is huge?  Which decade are you living in?  My digital watch has  
128 MB.  My pocket calculator holds larger memory cards.


Here is an alternative point of view:

I, and a few thousand other apps programmers, have been waiting for  
well over a year at my site for a 'non-lazy sysprog' (in your terms)  to 
implement the table (1208) needed to make half of the Enterprise  Cobol 
functionality available.




[snip]

And when that happens all of you will be ready for:
"Enterprise COBOL Update II: Unicode and XML Support"
(1 day) right?

see http://www.trainersfriend.com/COBOL_Courses/d705descr.htm

And before that at least some will need:
"Enterprise COBOL Update I: Essentials"
(2 days) probably.

see: http://www.trainersfriend.com/COBOL_Courses/d704descr.htm

I can't wait!

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Joe Zitzelberger]

On Jun 20, 2005, at 1:53 AM, Skip Robinson wrote:


I already confessed to being overly finicky on the real-storage issue.
Besides sack cloth and ashes, I might be due for some hard core self
flagellation.

On the other hand, a few parting observations:

- Whatever comes installed in a CEC, we're talking about 37 MB per  
LPAR. We

have some where that might represent 10% of the LPAR allocation.

- There is no excuse for making people languish indefinitely for  
something
anywhere near this simple. Period. The problem cited sounds way  
bigger than

UCS.


I think most sysprogs in the world do not appreciate how nice the new  
Enterprise Cobol features are because -- surprise -- sysprogs don't  
spend their days writing Cobol.  I just wanted to raise some  
awareness that the entire issue might not be the amount of real  
storage consumed...and cannot be quantified in terms of pages.




- The price of outfitting gear at Best Buy does not bear on mainframe
configuration. Watches, calculators, cell phones. Amazing gismos  
but not

quite ready for prime time commercial data bases.


Ahh, but it does.  It gives a good indication of where the current IT- 
hardware world is in relation to Moore's Law.  You have some people  
on this list that would never be able to even consider 37M of real  
storage because they have not yet released their grasp on a 24-bit,  
16M environment.


I quoted those unrelated prices only to illustrate how absurd it  
might be to only consider cost of hardware when making ones decision  
on UCS tables.


While Best Buy does not sell mainframe hardware, the factories that  
manufacture PC RAM sold there are the same ones that manufacture  
mainframe RAM -- the difference being that the mainframe marketed  
silicon is selected from the high end of Q&A, never discounted, and  
will include error correction, et al.


A one time cost of somewhere between $350 and $470 will put 2G of RAM  
in a high end, production quality, unix server.  (I'm sure the  
mainframes are more expensive)  That is enough for 55 of your lightly  
weighted LPARs to have full UCS tables.  What is that, a single day  
of applications programmer time?  Two days?


If you put it in those terms it becomes amazing how quickly you  
recover the cost of those 37 megabytes.




OK, I'm done.

.
.
JO.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
626-302-7535 Office
323-715-0595 Mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on  
06/19/2005

19:44:39:



37 MB is huge?  Which decade are you living in?  My digital watch has
128 MB.  My pocket calculator holds larger memory cards.

Here is an alternative point of view:

I, and a few thousand other apps programmers, have been waiting for
well over a year at my site for a 'non-lazy sysprog' (in your terms)
to implement the table (1208) needed to make half of the Enterprise
Cobol functionality available.

This in a world where IBM doesn't ship a machine with less than 32G
or 64G of real storage? What is the smallest  machine they have?
Even the little emulation laptops can hold a few gig of real storage
for the computing pleasure of a single developer.

Not installing the entire set of translations is just begging for
ages and ages of wasted time in development.  Even if the sysprogs
are very responsive to requests for new conversion it still means a
few days to get each individual translation added as needed.  Only to
save a few meg...

Here is a reality cookie for you -- Best Buy stores are selling 80G
hard drives for USD-19.95.  That is about 25 3390's -- or about
USD-0.79 per 3390.  I was shocked to see it, it reminded me of the
time I spent $1000 for a used 5M drive and felt I had gotten a great
deal.  RAM is equally cheap, but programmer time is not.

You might want to weigh the cost of wasted time for apps people not
having those translations available, having to stop development while
they are added, etc -verses- 37M of real storage.  I think you will
be surprised to see which costs less.


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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Skip Robinson]

I already confessed to being overly finicky on the real-storage issue.
Besides sack cloth and ashes, I might be due for some hard core self
flagellation.

On the other hand, a few parting observations:

- Whatever comes installed in a CEC, we're talking about 37 MB per LPAR. We
have some where that might represent 10% of the LPAR allocation.

- There is no excuse for making people languish indefinitely for something
anywhere near this simple. Period. The problem cited sounds way bigger than
UCS.

- The price of outfitting gear at Best Buy does not bear on mainframe
configuration. Watches, calculators, cell phones. Amazing gismos but not
quite ready for prime time commercial data bases.

OK, I'm done.

.
.
.
JO.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
626-302-7535 Office
323-715-0595 Mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 06/19/2005
19:44:39:

> 37 MB is huge?  Which decade are you living in?  My digital watch has
> 128 MB.  My pocket calculator holds larger memory cards.
>
> Here is an alternative point of view:
>
> I, and a few thousand other apps programmers, have been waiting for
> well over a year at my site for a 'non-lazy sysprog' (in your terms)
> to implement the table (1208) needed to make half of the Enterprise
> Cobol functionality available.
>
> This in a world where IBM doesn't ship a machine with less than 32G
> or 64G of real storage? What is the smallest  machine they have?
> Even the little emulation laptops can hold a few gig of real storage
> for the computing pleasure of a single developer.
>
> Not installing the entire set of translations is just begging for
> ages and ages of wasted time in development.  Even if the sysprogs
> are very responsive to requests for new conversion it still means a
> few days to get each individual translation added as needed.  Only to
> save a few meg...
>
> Here is a reality cookie for you -- Best Buy stores are selling 80G
> hard drives for USD-19.95.  That is about 25 3390's -- or about
> USD-0.79 per 3390.  I was shocked to see it, it reminded me of the
> time I spent $1000 for a used 5M drive and felt I had gotten a great
> deal.  RAM is equally cheap, but programmer time is not.
>
> You might want to weigh the cost of wasted time for apps people not
> having those translations available, having to stop development while
> they are added, etc -verses- 37M of real storage.  I think you will
> be surprised to see which costs less.

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Joe Zitzelberger]

37 MB is huge?  Which decade are you living in?  My digital watch has  
128 MB.  My pocket calculator holds larger memory cards.


Here is an alternative point of view:

I, and a few thousand other apps programmers, have been waiting for  
well over a year at my site for a 'non-lazy sysprog' (in your terms)  
to implement the table (1208) needed to make half of the Enterprise  
Cobol functionality available.


This in a world where IBM doesn't ship a machine with less than 32G  
or 64G of real storage? What is the smallest  machine they have?   
Even the little emulation laptops can hold a few gig of real storage  
for the computing pleasure of a single developer.


Not installing the entire set of translations is just begging for  
ages and ages of wasted time in development.  Even if the sysprogs  
are very responsive to requests for new conversion it still means a  
few days to get each individual translation added as needed.  Only to  
save a few meg...


Here is a reality cookie for you -- Best Buy stores are selling 80G  
hard drives for USD-19.95.  That is about 25 3390's -- or about  
USD-0.79 per 3390.  I was shocked to see it, it reminded me of the  
time I spent $1000 for a used 5M drive and felt I had gotten a great  
deal.  RAM is equally cheap, but programmer time is not.


You might want to weigh the cost of wasted time for apps people not  
having those translations available, having to stop development while  
they are added, etc -verses- 37M of real storage.  I think you will  
be surprised to see which costs less.



On Jun 19, 2005, at 7:44 PM, Schiradin,Roland HG-Dir itb-db/dc wrote:

UCS is required for DB2 V8, CTS V3 (using Webservices), ISPF  
(Display), Cobol Enterprise (depends on

the functions). Perhaps other products too.

The default image is huge and is page-fixed storage (real!). AFAIR  
about 37 MB and for lazy sysprogs only.

It creates a Common Data Space so watch your CADS settings (IPL).
The first activation require an IPL.

We have UCS since 2003 and no problems with our existing  
applications. I held a presentation
about UCS last month at the german CICS Guide and next week for a  
local MVS group in germany.


Roland


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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Schiradin,Roland HG-Dir itb-db/dc]

UCS is required for DB2 V8, CTS V3 (using Webservices), ISPF (Display), Cobol 
Enterprise (depends on 
the functions). Perhaps other products too. 

The default image is huge and is page-fixed storage (real!). AFAIR about 37 MB 
and for lazy sysprogs only.
It creates a Common Data Space so watch your CADS settings (IPL). 
The first activation require an IPL. 

We have UCS since 2003 and no problems with our existing applications. I held a 
presentation
about UCS last month at the german CICS Guide and next week for a local MVS 
group in germany.

Roland


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Cwi 
Jeret
Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Juni 2005 12:04
An: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Betreff: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode 
Conversion services (UCS)


Hello,

Due to some problems after installation of "EVENT PUBLISHER"
we got the request from IBM to implement "Unicode Conversion Services" on our 
Production Site.

We want to be sure that this will not affect running Production Applications !

Does anyone have experience with implementation of "Unicode Conversion 
Services" and the impact on working applications ?

Cwi Jeret, Bank Hapoalim  - T.A.

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Skip Robinson]

When you need 'em, you need 'em. We likewise had to implement initially a
while back because of some DB2 maintenance. Took quite a while and IBM help
to figure out was wrong.

There are basically two ways to implement: throw in *every* possible
conversion table (easy), or track down just the ones you need and implement
only those (harder). The main reason for not taking the easy shotgun
approach is that UCS tables live in page-fixed storage, which effectively
means real storage. I'm probably overly sensitive to this requirement; in a
well-heeled LPAR you probably wouldn't notice the impact. Nonetheless, I
still think it's worth being a little choosy in order to minimize the real
storage cost. It's a business issue more than a technical one.

.
.
.
JO.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
626-302-7535 Office
323-715-0595 Mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 06/19/2005
08:39:34:

> From my experience, only products that use UCS know it is there.  We had
> to implement a year or two ago because of some DB2 PTFs.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Cwi Jeret
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 6:04 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode
> Conversion services (UCS)
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Due to some problems after installation of "EVENT PUBLISHER"
> we got the request from IBM to implement "Unicode Conversion Services"
> on
> our Production Site.
>
> We want to be sure that this will not affect running Production
> Applications !
>
> Does anyone have experience with implementation of "Unicode Conversion
> Services"
> and the impact on working applications ?

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Re: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Gray, Larry - Larry A]

>From my experience, only products that use UCS know it is there.  We had
to implement a year or two ago because of some DB2 PTFs.  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cwi Jeret
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 6:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode
Conversion services (UCS)


Hello,

Due to some problems after installation of "EVENT PUBLISHER"
we got the request from IBM to implement "Unicode Conversion Services"
on
our Production Site.

We want to be sure that this will not affect running Production
Applications !

Does anyone have experience with implementation of "Unicode Conversion
Services"
and the impact on working applications ?

Cwi Jeret, Bank Hapoalim  - T.A.

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Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)]

[John S. Giltner, Jr.]

It MAY.  It depends on what you have that may be doing ASCII EBCDIC
translation and if they support using the Unidcode Conversion Services.

Example:  DB2 used to do all of its own ASCII/EBCDIC translation.  Now
it uses this service.  They way I understand it, it will attempt to use
this service FIRST and if it can't find a code table match, it will then
use it own internal tables.  We are having a problem right now where
CRLF for end of line markers is not being tranlated the same way as as
before using this service.  IIRC it will translate correctly EBCDIC to
ASCII, but ASCII to EBCDIC gets it different.


Cwi Jeret wrote:

Hello,

Due to some problems after installation of "EVENT PUBLISHER"
we got the request from IBM to implement "Unicode Conversion Services" on
our Production Site.

We want to be sure that this will not affect running Production
Applications !

Does anyone have experience with implementation of "Unicode Conversion
Services"
and the impact on working applications ?

Cwi Jeret, Bank Hapoalim  - T.A.




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Aplications running on z/OS1.4 after implementation of Unicode Conversion services (UCS)

[Cwi Jeret]

Hello,

Due to some problems after installation of "EVENT PUBLISHER"
we got the request from IBM to implement "Unicode Conversion Services" on
our Production Site.

We want to be sure that this will not affect running Production
Applications !

Does anyone have experience with implementation of "Unicode Conversion
Services"
and the impact on working applications ?

Cwi Jeret, Bank Hapoalim  - T.A.

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