Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[tony babonas]

Continuing to blaspheme, my theory is that zOS should be able to host such
an application,
labor being provided by a collective of experienced sysprogs.  

We would self-moderate(after all it's our DASD), self-fund, self-install,
self-SMPE.  Surely someone has
a spare garage or basement to donate.   

 
 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tom Schmidt
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:18:41 -0600, tony babonas wrote:
>Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else
>needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc.
>Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Possible?  Would be a great proof of concept.  How much would each of us
>have to pony up?
>
>Imagine the possibilities.  Maybe IBM, CA, BMC, FDR et all  would be
willing
>to help out.
 
 
You have completely missed the point:  the list owner (Darren, in our case)
is 
the true fundamental value to this list.  The hardware & operating system
are 
meaningless in our context.  The site hosting that hardware/OS is providing
us 
with funding (mostly, lately, to enable pointless off-topic meanderings...
but I 
digress) but it is their funding of the list owner's salary that is the real
deal.  
 
Moving (or even _thinking_ about moving) somewhere else - without Darren - 
is borderline blasphemy!  
 
--
Tom Schmidt 
 

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Edward Jaffe]

tony babonas wrote:

Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else
needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc.
Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.
  


Why? Isn't bama doing a good enough job?

--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:55:24 -0800, Edward Jaffe 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>...
>Why? Isn't bama doing a good enough job?
>...

I'll take Ed's question a step further.

I'd say that bama is doing a  good job and I'd hate to see
this turned over to a bunch amateurs, not matter how well
intentioned they are, and no matter how good  proof of concept it
would be.   This forum is too valuable for that.

If UA is trying to get rid of IBM-Main then yes, we should help find 
another home for it, and a z platform would be worth looking at.
Otherwise, let's not rock the boat.

Bama in general, and Darren in particular, have been doing a very 
good job.

Pat O'Keefe

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 1/18/2008 3:58:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

If UA is trying to get rid of IBM-Main then yes, we should help find  
another home for it, and a z platform would be worth looking  at.
Otherwise, let's not rock the boat.


>>
With next year's anticipated shortfall in  general revenues all things will 
be reviewed. Hopefully, we'll survive  unscathed. There have been volunteers to 
rehost but so far we've managed  to keep it pieced together since 1986. 
 
Personally I feel it's valuable contribution  to our industry and exemplifies 
the 'Service' in our creed. I know I've  learned a lot and been exposed to 
new ideas and explanations of 'how things  work' in numerous facets of our 
profession. 







**Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[richgr]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you write:
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of tony babonas
>> 
>> Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and 
>> all else needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, 
>> DB2-L etc etc.
>
>I'd think z/VM would be a better choice for a LISTSERVE host..

Especially since Listserv(R) doesn't run on Z/OS (it does run on VM) and
even if it did, Z/OS doesn't run on an IFL.

Farfetched as it may be, if this does come off I will offer my services
as listserv admin (I already run 2 lists).

-- 
Rich Greenberg  N Ft Myers, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com  + 1 239 543 1353
Eastern time.  N6LRT  I speak for myself & my dogs only.VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red, Shasta & Casey (RIP), Red & Zero, Siberians  Owner:Chinook-L
Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Rick Fochtman]

---
We would self-moderate
-
Right after I shoot down the pig that's circling my chimney!!! :-)

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[David Andrews]

On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 14:53 -0600, tony babonas wrote:
> We would self-moderate

Yeah, like THAT's gonna happen.

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Mark H. Young]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:53:10 -0600, tony babonas 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Continuing to blaspheme, my theory is that zOS should be able to host such
>an application, labor being provided by a collective of experienced sysprogs.
>
>We would self-moderate(after all it's our DASD), self-fund, self-install,
>self-SMPE.  Surely someone has a spare garage or basement to donate.
>
<*Snip*>

You said "collective".why bring the BORG into this?!
Sorry.  It's late on Friday and I'm wired.  Couldn't resist.
Nevermind

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[tony babonas]

Simple philosophy.  Over the years we're seen the toy computers undercut
most of what we do.  We continue to reassure each other on this
list that we're the best.  Just ask us.

We should be able to prove our point.  Let's start taking some apps back and
awaken the dinosaur.

If we can..   

   

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edward Jaffe
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

tony babonas wrote:
> Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else
> needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc.
> Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.
>   

Why? Isn't bama doing a good enough job?

-- 
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Thomas Kern]

Okay, Then I will gladly be your z/VM sysprog. My experience on the 'dark
side' goes back to June 23, 1976 when I first logged onto a virtual machine.

/Tom Kern

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:09:03 -0600, Chase, John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Thomas Kern
>>
>> You could save some money by running SLES10  and the linux
>> version of LSoft's LISTSERV product.
>>
>> No z/OS or z/VM necessary.
>
>But z/VM would provide "cheap insurance" against outages, especially if
>multiple lists were hosted (each list could have its own virtual
>machine, etc.).  One z/VM juggling a "flock of penguins"..
>
>z/OS probably shouldn't even be on the "candidate list" of hosting
>platforms.  For one, z/OS won't run on IFLs.
>
>-jc-

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Bama in general, and Darren in particular, have been doing a very good job.

As with any re-hosting discussion, the people involved (which is the most 
important aspect) have been ignored.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>My experience on the 'dark side' goes back to June 23, 1976 when I first 
>logged onto a virtual machine.

I first logged on in September 1976.
1st year course at Uwaterloo.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Tom Schmidt]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:18:41 -0600, tony babonas wrote:
>Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else
>needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc.
>Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Possible?  Would be a great proof of concept.  How much would each of us
>have to pony up?
>
>Imagine the possibilities.  Maybe IBM, CA, BMC, FDR et all  would be willing
>to help out.
 
 
You have completely missed the point:  the list owner (Darren, in our case) is 
the true fundamental value to this list.  The hardware & operating system are 
meaningless in our context.  The site hosting that hardware/OS is providing us 
with funding (mostly, lately, to enable pointless off-topic meanderings... but 
I 
digress) but it is their funding of the list owner's salary that is the real 
deal.  
 
Moving (or even _thinking_ about moving) somewhere else - without Darren - 
is borderline blasphemy!  
 
--
Tom Schmidt 
 

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of tony babonas
> 
> We don't want to do this on the cheap,necessarily.  We want 
> to run it all on zOS.  
> No shortage of SYSPROGs:-)

z/OS would probably be the worst choice for this purpose.  First, you'd
have to ditch the IFLs and get "regular" CPUs..

-jc-

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[tony babonas]

We don't want to do this on the cheap,necessarily.  We want to run it all on
zOS.  
No shortage of SYSPROGs:-)

 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Thomas Kern
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

You could save some money by running SLES10  and the linux version of
LSoft's LISTSERV product. 

No z/OS or z/VM necessary.

/Tom Kern



On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:18:41 -0600, tony babonas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else
>needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc.
>Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Possible?  Would be a great proof of concept.  How much would each of us
>have to pony up?
>
>Imagine the possibilities.  Maybe IBM, CA, BMC, FDR et all  would be
willing
>to help out.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>Of Ken Porowski
>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:10 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay
>
>Up to $6500 now.
>

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 1/18/2008 1:18:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Possible?  Would be a great proof of concept.  How much would  each of us
have to pony up?


>>
$100k/mo would be a good start. Divide that by  4K users and only 20 bucks a 
month. Nobody has ever voluntered anything for  IBM-Main. No hardware, no 
software, no discounts. Currently runs on SUN and  Windows manure spreader. 
 
The logical place for it would be IBMlink  umbrella but then it probably 
wouldn't be available quite as  much!







**Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Rick Fochtman]

-
Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else 
needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc. 
Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.


Possible? Would be a great proof of concept. How much would each of us 
have to pony up?


Imagine the possibilities. Maybe IBM, CA, BMC, FDR et all would be 
willing to help out.


Interesting thought. Also need to consider site selection and planning 
and operational costs. Come up with power and cooling requirements and 
I'll run some costs, using spreadsheets I've used for that purpose in 
the past.


If there's an IBMer watching, I'll need the current formulae for 
converting cooling requirements in air and water to electricity dollars 
and cents.


If there's a site selected, I'll need floor space costs and electricity 
costs.


I got time to do the math; get me the numbers. IIRC, our z/800 cost 
around $0.40 per hour, not counting floor space rental.


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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Thomas Kern]

You could save some money by running SLES10  and the linux version of
LSoft's LISTSERV product. 

No z/OS or z/VM necessary.

/Tom Kern



On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:18:41 -0600, tony babonas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and all else
>needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, DB2-L etc etc.
>Manpower to support it shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Possible?  Would be a great proof of concept.  How much would each of us
>have to pony up?
>
>Imagine the possibilities.  Maybe IBM, CA, BMC, FDR et all  would be willing
>to help out.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>Of Ken Porowski
>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:10 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay
>
>Up to $6500 now.
>

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of tony babonas
> 
> Why don't we take up a collection to buy an old CPU, zOS and 
> all else needed, then host IBM-MAIN, RACF-L, CICS-L, VM-L, 
> DB2-L etc etc.

I'd think z/VM would be a better choice for a LISTSERVE host..

-jc-

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>No z/OS or z/VM necessary.


Somebody has gone over to the Dark Side, Luke!

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Thomas Kern
> 
> You could save some money by running SLES10  and the linux 
> version of LSoft's LISTSERV product. 
> 
> No z/OS or z/VM necessary.

But z/VM would provide "cheap insurance" against outages, especially if
multiple lists were hosted (each list could have its own virtual
machine, etc.).  One z/VM juggling a "flock of penguins"..

z/OS probably shouldn't even be on the "candidate list" of hosting
platforms.  For one, z/OS won't run on IFLs.

-jc-

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Ken Porowski]

So we take up a collection, buy the z890 and have it shipped to Darren
;-)

-Original Message-
Tom Schmidt
 
You have completely missed the point:  the list owner (Darren, in our
case) is the true fundamental value to this list.  The hardware &
operating system are meaningless in our context.  The site hosting that
hardware/OS is providing us with funding (mostly, lately, to enable
pointless off-topic meanderings... but I
digress) but it is their funding of the list owner's salary that is the
real deal.  
 
Moving (or even _thinking_ about moving) somewhere else - without Darren
- is borderline blasphemy!  

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Rick Fochtman]

If UA is trying to get rid of IBM-Main then yes, we should help find 
another home for it, and a z platform would be worth looking at. 
Otherwise, let's not rock the boat.

--
Best idea I've heard yet.

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 01/18/2008
   at 02:15 PM, Thomas Kern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Okay, Then I will gladly be your z/VM sysprog. My experience on the 'dark
>side' goes back to June 23, 1976 when I first logged onto a virtual
>machine.

I'm a TSO bigot from way bac,, and I would *NEVER* refer to VM as the dark
side. In fact, there are VM0 facilities, e.g., XEDIT, that I would love to
see in MVS.

I agree that z/VM makes more sense than z/OS if all that you're doing is
hosting LISTSERV, but unless someone is paying for the processor,
environmentals and peripherals Linux on an AMD would seem to make more
sense than either.

Are we losing our hosting? If not, why discuss options for a new host?
I've heard nothing about UA dropping us. Yes, Darren has retired, but he's
still willing to put in time for the list. If there is a need to move,
it's his opinions that matter most, and I haven't read anything from him
suggesting that it's necessary, or even that he's been consulted. 
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Darren Evans-Young]

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

>Are we losing our hosting? If not, why discuss options for a new host?
>I've heard nothing about UA dropping us. Yes, Darren has retired, but he's
>still willing to put in time for the list. If there is a need to move,
>it's his opinions that matter most, and I haven't read anything from him
>suggesting that it's necessary, or even that he's been consulted.

It's amazing how a post degenerates into
a wild rumour. (not your post Shmuel)

IBM-MAIN isn't going anywhere.
UA is not dropping us.  The only
place I've heard this, is this list!

I have retired from my Unix Sys Admin position.
I still receive a check from UA for my teaching
the Computer-Based Honors Program. So, I'm not
going anywhere either!

Geez!

Darren

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Re: Re-hosting IMB-MAIN (was RE: z890 2086-160 w/ 2 IFLs on eBay)

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:29:39 -0600, Darren Evans-Young 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>...
>It's amazing how a post degenerates into
>a wild rumour. (not your post Shmuel)
>...

Actually, this thread started in a pretty degenerate state - asking 
about rehosting IBM-Main.   Our own FUD  added "UA dropping us?".

>IBM-MAIN isn't going anywhere.
>UA is not dropping us.  The only
>place I've heard this, is this list!

Thank you for killing the rumor.
(Let's hope it stays dead.)

Pat O'Keefe

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