Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. .. By definintion fork() must start the new process in a *new* address space. It's a one-to-one copy of the forking process. From a UNIX perspective, everything is copied over; in z/OS's implementation some MVS related things are not copied, e.g. DD-statements. New doesn't not necessarily mean a newly created address space but one that is clean. In z/OS, fork() will ask for a BPXAS, which may be an idle one or one that will be started for that request if there is no idle one (WLM decides). Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE What does WLM decide in this case? If there is no free one, a new one *must* be started, doesn't it? Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
WLM decides if the system can bear another address space. There is no guarantee a fork() always succeeds. The programmer must test the return code and act appropriately. There are a number of reason codes related to resources not available. Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. .. WLM decides if the system can bear another address space. There is no guarantee a fork() always succeeds. The programmer must test the return code and act appropriately. There are a number of reason codes related to resources not available. I did some investigations, found SG24-5326-00, which explains that BPXAS's are WLM server address spaces (fork initiators). WLM maintains a pool of them to be reused and created when needed. Chapter 5.4 describes what WLM does when a fork initiator is requested: when one is available it is resumed and the application continues, when the pool is empty, the fork request is suspended and WLM creates a new address space and posts the waiting task. Can you point me to docs that describe that WLM takes system resources (besides MAXPROCSYS of course) into consideration to decide whether or not, or when, to create a new address space? Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
-Original Message- From: Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM Sent: woensdag 29 november 2006 13:33 To: 'IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU' Subject: Re: What is the correct term these days for region? Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. .. WLM decides if the system can bear another address space. There is no guarantee a fork() always succeeds. The programmer must test the return code and act appropriately. There are a number of reason codes related to resources not available. I did some investigations, found SG24-5326-00, which explains that BPXAS's are WLM server address spaces (fork initiators). WLM maintains a pool of them to be reused and created when needed. Chapter 5.4 describes what WLM does when a fork initiator is requested: when one is available it is resumed and the application continues, when the pool is empty, the fork request is suspended and WLM creates a new address space and posts the waiting task. Can you point me to docs that describe that WLM takes system resources (besides MAXPROCSYS of course) into consideration to decide whether or not, or when, to create a new address space? Next info: sg246472 says in ch. 9.1.3: Note: The creation of these WLM fork initiators is based solely on demand, not on goal management. This implies that each BPXAS request is honoured, if not limited by MAXPROCSYS. Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Global Data Center Operations Print Processing Engineering / KIUK 3 Uetlibergstrasse 231 CH-8070 Zurich Phone +41 (0)44 332 2697 Fax +41 (0)44 332 4543 http://www.credit-suissse.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: What is the correct term these days for region? -Original Message- From: Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM Sent: woensdag 29 november 2006 13:33 To: 'IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU' Subject: Re: What is the correct term these days for region? Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. .. WLM decides if the system can bear another address space. There is no guarantee a fork() always succeeds. The programmer must test the return code and act appropriately. There are a number of reason codes related to resources not available. I did some investigations, found SG24-5326-00, which explains that BPXAS's are WLM server address spaces (fork initiators). WLM maintains a pool of them to be reused and created when needed. Chapter 5.4 describes what WLM does when a fork initiator is requested: when one is available it is resumed and the application continues, when the pool is empty, the fork request is suspended and WLM creates a new address space and posts the waiting task. Can you point me to docs that describe that WLM takes system resources (besides MAXPROCSYS of course) into consideration to decide whether or not, or when, to create a new address space? No, I cannot (easily). It is my understanding but I cannot right now tell if this is based on some real documentation that I had read back in OS/390 V1.3/2.4 timeframe when BPXAS were first introduced. Or if it is a pure assumption of mine out of the believe that WLM will not endanger system sanity if an additional AS would do so, be it for a fork() or some other AS create request. This is the list of reasons that a failed fork() may report. It is definitely more that only MAXPROCUSER. │ EAGAIN │ The resources required to let another process be │ ││ created are not available now; or you have│ ││ already reached the maximum number of processes │ ││ you are allowed to run. │ ││ │ ││ The following reason codes can accompany the │ ││ return code: JRForkExitRcChildNoStorage, │ ││ JRForkExitRcParentBadEnv, │ ││ JRForkExitRcParentNoRoom, JRForkNoAccess, │ ││ JRForkNoResource, JRForkVsmListTooLarge, │ ││ JRKernelReady, JRMaxChild, JRMaxProc, JRMaxUIDs, │ ││ JRNoSecurityProduct, JRNotKey8, and JRWlmWonErr. │ Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:01 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: What is the correct term these days for region? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John [ snip ] I use whatever will be understood by the audience. Mainly, I use the word REGION because of the REGION= parameter on the JOB and EXEC cards. People can then more easily relate. Yes, I am dumbing down. Not really my choice, but if I keep the mainframe terminology even a bit complex, then the Windows people use that as ammo for saying nasty things about it, such as it's too complicated. To which an appropriate retort might be, Do you mean 'it's too powerful?' or 'it's too flexible?' or another suitable adjective. -jc- Yes, those are bad things as well. If you give people too many choices, it just confuses them. Better to make it one true way so that they don't get headaches. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Is region still a valid term or has its use been deprecated? Is it the best term? Is address space better? I am thinking, for example, of region in a context loosely defined as the logical place that one job runs in such as there is only one TIOT for a given region - a sense in which it is *roughly* equivalent to initiator. Region and address space are related but not the same thing. The REGION is the subset of the address space that is made available to user programs. The REGION size (endlessly debated here) is your ambit claim for how much you think the work running in the address space might GETMAIN concurrently. That number is massaged by your IEFUSI exit and the REGION limit is set. GETMAIN more than that and you get an S878 or S80A abend. You can also think of the REGION as being made up of the low private subpools. Net-net it's a subset of the address space. Is the term equally applicable to started tasks as to batch jobs? If not, what is the correct word for the context of a started task? All the same. What is the equivalent term for a TSO user address space? To update the phrase above, there is only one TIOT for a given batch region or TSO _? A TSO address space is just an address space and in general there is one TIOT per address space, but that's only because in general there is only one real job step task. If you're privileged and you attach (and set up) more concurrent job steps, then you can have more TIOTs. Their behavior is not all sweetness and light, but it's doable. Thanks. I'm writing some documentation and wanted to use the precise term. I would say address space is the correct term in the context you're using it. CC -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
In a recent note, Craddock, Chris said: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:50:15 -0500 A TSO address space is just an address space and in general there is one TIOT per address space, but that's only because in general there is only one real job step task. If you're privileged and you attach (and set up) more concurrent job steps, then you can have more TIOTs. Their behavior is not all sweetness and light, but it's doable. I don't believe you need any special privilege to use BPX1FRK, and each child then has its own TIOT. Is each child then a job step task? With privilege, can multiple job step tasks operate in a single address space? (It was possible with MVT; why not z/OS?) -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shane Ginnane Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: What is the correct term these days for region? Your use of correct and precise precludes any sane response. Be that as it may, IMHO region is too heavily overloaded - as is IBMs wont. I use address space, and can see no reason not to. Shane ... I use whatever will be understood by the audience. Mainly, I use the word REGION because of the REGION= parameter on the JOB and EXEC cards. People can then more easily relate. Yes, I am dumbing down. Not really my choice, but if I keep the mainframe terminology even a bit complex, then the Windows people use that as ammo for saying nasty things about it, such as it's too complicated. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Paul Gilmartin said; In a recent note, Craddock, Chris said: A TSO address space is just an address space and in general there is one TIOT per address space, but that's only because in general there is only one real job step task. If you're privileged and you attach (and set up) more concurrent job steps, then you can have more TIOTs. Their behavior is not all sweetness and light, but it's doable. I don't believe you need any special privilege to use BPX1FRK, and each child then has its own TIOT. Is each child then a job step task? With privilege, can multiple job step tasks operate in a single address space? (It was possible with MVT; why not z/OS?) I am by no means an expert on USS, but I believe when you fork() the spawned process runs in one of those handy BPXAS address spaces that the system keeps around specifically so fork() can run fast-ish by avoiding the ASCRE and related overhead. I don't know anything about the state of the TIOT in the forked address space (whether it contains any pre-defined allocations) but since it really is an address space with a job step and a TIOT, presumably it can do normal allocation and for the most part life goes on as expected. Lightweight threads, pthreads (or whatever they are called on any given day) probably run as subtasks, but again, I don't know for sure since I have never paid attention to such things in detail. My only close brush with USS has been related to porting APACHE, GCC and related stuff. That was quite a few years ago now and I coerced it to run in a set of normal subtasks designed to accomplish the goals we had for it. In other words, the ported code did not do any native fork() or thread management of its own. You DO need to be privileged to attach a job step task and there are a number of significant quirks that crawl from the woodwork if you're man enough to attach more than one. Allocation is tightly woven with ENQ serialization, so while it is possible to compose applications that understand and co-operate in such an environment most just won't work. If you threw in two applications that assumed they were the only camper in the place there's a very good chance they would cause havoc with each other. There are just too many deep seated job-step related assumptions within z/OS and its ancestors. CC -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John [ snip ] I use whatever will be understood by the audience. Mainly, I use the word REGION because of the REGION= parameter on the JOB and EXEC cards. People can then more easily relate. Yes, I am dumbing down. Not really my choice, but if I keep the mainframe terminology even a bit complex, then the Windows people use that as ammo for saying nasty things about it, such as it's too complicated. To which an appropriate retort might be, Do you mean 'it's too powerful?' or 'it's too flexible?' or another suitable adjective. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
On 28 Nov 2006 08:56:10 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: I use whatever will be understood by the audience. Mainly, I use the word REGION because of the REGION= parameter on the JOB and EXEC cards. People can then more easily relate. Yes, I am dumbing down. Not really my choice, but if I keep the mainframe terminology even a bit complex, then the Windows people use that as ammo for saying nasty things about it, such as it's too complicated. Mainframes aren't more complicated than Windows machines - unless complicated means unfamiliar, which it often does. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
I am not 1% of an expert on UNIX S/S and/or fork, but the documentation implies that fork creates the child in a new address space, for example, under Usage Notes: 3. If the calling address space uses the macro IARVSERV to capture storage, these pages are not copied to the child address space. Other notes imply that BPX1FRK creates a new job -- and presumably therefore a jobstep task. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 6:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: What is the correct term these days for region? In a recent note, Craddock, Chris said: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:50:15 -0500 A TSO address space is just an address space and in general there is one TIOT per address space, but that's only because in general there is only one real job step task. If you're privileged and you attach (and set up) more concurrent job steps, then you can have more TIOTs. Their behavior is not all sweetness and light, but it's doable. I don't believe you need any special privilege to use BPX1FRK, and each child then has its own TIOT. Is each child then a job step task? With privilege, can multiple job step tasks operate in a single address space? (It was possible with MVT; why not z/OS?) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Charles Mills wrote: I am not 1% of an expert on UNIX S/S and/or fork, but the documentation implies that fork creates the child in a new address space, [...] AFAIK not always. Search for SHAREAS, BPX_SHAREAS, etc. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: What is the correct term these days for region?
Your use of correct and precise precludes any sane response. Be that as it may, IMHO region is too heavily overloaded - as is IBMs wont. I use address space, and can see no reason not to. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
