Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Rex, By all means. But beware of those who give out unnecessary trinkets with one hand and take over control of systems with the other. Chris On 20/05/2021 15:37, Pommier, Rex wrote: > Sorry Chris, > > But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The > "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for > me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a > slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane > COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can > easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use > of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing > my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win > situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of > having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. > > It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about > COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", > and see the light come on in their eyes. > > But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a > more major player in the SMB business arena. > > Rex > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > CM Poncelet > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS > / ZOS Technologies > > Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but > by sharpening the user. > > "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed > conditions. > > Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be > made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. > > And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late > 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I > continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix > PTFEs etc. etc. > > Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe > systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? > > As they say, "Use it or lose it." > > Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) > > > > On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: >> Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= >> again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. >> I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they >> did not acually understand how they worked. >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of CM Poncelet >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS >> Technologies >> >> With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= >> statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. >> >> All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only >> COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in >> "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF >> files to this discussion list is not permitted. >> >> No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= >> statements. >> >> Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do >> symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. >> >> Chris Poncelet (r) >> >> >> . >> On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >>> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >>> >>> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >>> >>> I would argue JCL got better when symbols were allowed! :-) >>> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=es-symlist-parameter >>> >>> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:46 PM Charles Mills wrote: >>> >>>
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Yep. Digital Research had a contract with all their prior customers. If they cut the price for a new customer, they change the price and REFUND the difference on all previous sales. On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 11:47 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > Admittedly DR-C was a sin for which there is no forgiveness, but my > understanding is that the IBM-DR negotiations foundered on the issue of > contract terms, and IBM gave away the farm with m$. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Charles Mills > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:38 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for > MVS / ZOS Technologies > > Digital Research was certainly an accomplice in its own strangulation. > > Charles > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 8:07 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources > for MVS / ZOS Technologies > > Stuck to DR-DOS? We would have all been better off had m$ not taken over the > PC OS market and used the monopoly to strangle its competitors. > > SMB? Doesn't NFS play better with the *ix world? > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Pommier, Rex > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:37 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources > for MVS / ZOS Technologies > > Sorry Chris, > > But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. > The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough > for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us > on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the > arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If > I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on > the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL > without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, > it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has > horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. > > It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about > COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic > instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. > > But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a > more major player in the SMB business arena. > > Rex > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > CM Poncelet > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for > MVS / ZOS Technologies > > Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool > but by sharpening the user. > > "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed > conditions. > > Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be > made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. > > And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the > late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I > continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix > PTFEs etc. etc. > > Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe > systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? > > As they say, "Use it or lose it." > > Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) > > > > On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Sorry, my mind was in the gutter. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:46 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Shmuel, By SMB I meant small and medium business, not server message block or whatever Micro$oft meant by it. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 8:07 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Stuck to DR-DOS? We would have all been better off had m$ not taken over the PC OS market and used the monopoly to strangle its competitors. SMB? Doesn't NFS play better with the *ix world? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Admittedly DR-C was a sin for which there is no forgiveness, but my understanding is that the IBM-DR negotiations foundered on the issue of contract terms, and IBM gave away the farm with m$. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Digital Research was certainly an accomplice in its own strangulation. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 8:07 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Stuck to DR-DOS? We would have all been better off had m$ not taken over the PC OS market and used the monopoly to strangle its competitors. SMB? Doesn't NFS play better with the *ix world? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02,
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Shmuel, By SMB I meant small and medium business, not server message block or whatever Micro$oft meant by it. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 8:07 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Stuck to DR-DOS? We would have all been better off had m$ not taken over the PC OS market and used the monopoly to strangle its competitors. SMB? Doesn't NFS play better with the *ix world? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >> >&g
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Digital Research was certainly an accomplice in its own strangulation. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 8:07 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Stuck to DR-DOS? We would have all been better off had m$ not taken over the PC OS market and used the monopoly to strangle its competitors. SMB? Doesn't NFS play better with the *ix world? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >> >> I would argue JCL got better when sy
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Stuck to DR-DOS? We would have all been better off had m$ not taken over the PC OS market and used the monopoly to strangle its competitors. SMB? Doesn't NFS play better with the *ix world? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >> >> I would argue JCL got better when symbols were allowed! :-) >> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=es-symlist-parameter >> >> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:46 PM Charles Mills wrote: >> >>> Steve, let me wade in here and suggest some big picture. I think >>> SHARE and such is great for the details. >>> >>> What has
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Actually that was a mistake on my part. I was thinking CP/M which was before MS-DOS. :-) I've actually used CP/M eons ago but don't know if I ever used DR-DOS. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of PINION, RICHARD W. Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 9:41 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies DR-DOS, now that's a name I've not heard in a long time (Obi Wan Kenobe). -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.] Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >> >> I would argue JCL got better when sym
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
DR-DOS, now that's a name I've not heard in a long time (Obi Wan Kenobe). -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.] Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >> >> I would argue JCL got better when symbols were allowed! :-) >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?top >> ic=es-symlist-parameter__;!!HnnddUIWDII9UQ!HOqHZ01GFT4JGSB82v3WH370P0 >> t7s0tHIMVgDmGr4We6lrkYplP2aODrYvHAioFxoZg$ >> >> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:46 PM Charles Mills wrote: >> >>> Steve, let me wade in here and suggest some big picture. I think >>> SHARE and such is great for the details. &
Re: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies
Sorry Chris, But I would venture a guess that you're pretty much standing alone here. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" otherwise known as "if it's good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody else" attitude is what has us on a slowly dying platform. So what if IF/THEN doesn't handle all the arcane COND= Boolean logic? Sysprogs aren't the only people using JCL. If I can easily train an application developer or an implementation analyst on the use of IF/THEN once and have them go away and build their own JCL without needing my continual assistance to help them understand COND= logic, it is a win-win situation. I would bet every sysprogs on this list has horror stories of having to fix somebody's COND= screw-up. It's actually quite enjoyable having a developer come to me puzzled about COND=something and be able to say "Here, use this IF/THEN JCL logic instead", and see the light come on in their eyes. But then, if PCs would have stuck with DR-DOS the mainframe would still be a more major player in the SMB business arena. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of CM Poncelet Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 8:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the tool but by sharpening the user. "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and steps-not-executed conditions. Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? As they say, "Use it or lose it." Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: > Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for JCL I never used COND= > again. IF/THEN is much easier to use and to explain to new people. > I have seen many people code COND statements incorrectly because they > did not acually understand how they worked. > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of CM Poncelet > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= > statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. > > All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only > COND= statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in > "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF > files to this discussion list is not permitted. > > No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= > statements. > > Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do > symbols in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN in assembler. > > Chris Poncelet (r) > > > . > On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >> >> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >> >> I would argue JCL got better when symbols were allowed! :-) >> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=es-symlist-parameter >> >> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:46 PM Charles Mills wrote: >> >>> Steve, let me wade in here and suggest some big picture. I think >>> SHARE and such is great for the details. >>> >>> What has changed since 2001? An idiosyncratic, IMHO list: >>> >>> - In 2001 SNA was yielding to TCP/IP. That transition has continued. >>> An awful lot of mainframe connectivity is now TCP/IP. Lots and lots >>> of Internet connectivity to the mainframe. >>> - Security is huge. Encryption is hot. Zero Trust is the buzzword of >>> the month. >>> - Everything is of course bigger. Z hardware goes up to what? 4TB real? >>> Someone will correct
