Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Andrew Rowley]

On 21/05/2024 12:50 am, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:


The only thing I still cannot do is to convince my students the 
z/OS<->PC data exchange is easy and well tooled.


It will never be easy due to complications from EBCDIC and record 
structure. Even IBM frequently gets it wrong.


There are new tools, e.g. I have been experimenting with Zowe CLI. It's 
worth trying for file transfer and can create new datasets, PDS etc. It 
only requires z/OSMF on the mainframe, i.e. nothing to install there - 
only configuration.


--

Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 21 May 2024 00:03:54 +, Farley, Peter  wrote:
>
>However, caveat emptor – if your default TSO profile sets the PROFILE 
>parameter to your user ID, that “cd pds.library” command will fail because it 
>does not start with HLQ = your user ID.
>
IBM allows but discourages TSO prefix different from User ID.  Regardless,
some sites do so to mitigate catalog alias bloat.

And some facilities, I believe /bin/cp is one, don;t query the RACF TSO segment
but use the anyway.  What does FTP server(?) do?

Must one have a TSO segment to use FTP?

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gil

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Farley, Peter]

Windows command line ftp client also accepts a “command file input” (-s option) 
so you can fill that file with any commands you need and then feed it to the 
ftp client.

However, caveat emptor – if your default TSO profile sets the PROFILE parameter 
to your user ID, that “cd pds.library” command will fail because it does not 
start with HLQ = your user ID.

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bernd Oppolzer
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2024 5:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)


That's what I do all the time, too ... a little more info:



ftp 

/* mvs asks for user and password */

/* I am now at "USER01." ... if my TSO-ID is USER01 */

cd ..

/* I am now at "" ... top level */

cd pds.library

/* I get an answer like "pds.library is a partitioned data set" */

prompt

ascii

mget *

/* now all the members of 'pds.library' are transferred to the local

directory  */

bye



To do that more easily, I issue all those commands from REXX procedures

using the

console stack; some FTP clients allow the user and password issued from

the cmd line

(you can use free REXX interpreters like Regina REXX or Object REXX for

Windows to do that).

The REXX procedures are called by small CMD files (so that they can be

called easily from the cmd line).



Examples:



rmemb testpgm.pas pascaln.testpgm.src

smemb testpgm.pas pascaln.testpgm.src

rlib pascaln.testpgm.src



/* rmemb = receive member, smemb = send member, rlib = receive library */



Kind regards



Bernd





Am 20.05.2024 um 16:54 schrieb Schmitt, Michael:

> And ordinary command line FTP. For example, Windows:

>

> prompt

> ascii

> quote site notrail

> mget *

>

>

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

That's what I do all the time, too ... a little more info:

ftp 
/* mvs asks for user and password */
/* I am now at "USER01." ... if my TSO-ID is USER01 */
cd ..
/* I am now at "" ... top level */
cd pds.library
/* I get an answer like "pds.library is a partitioned data set" */
prompt
ascii
mget *
/* now all the members of 'pds.library' are transferred to the local 
directory  */

bye

To do that more easily, I issue all those commands from REXX procedures 
using the
console stack; some FTP clients allow the user and password issued from 
the cmd line
(you can use free REXX interpreters like Regina REXX or Object REXX for 
Windows to do that).
The REXX procedures are called by small CMD files (so that they can be 
called easily from the cmd line).


Examples:

rmemb testpgm.pas pascaln.testpgm.src
smemb testpgm.pas pascaln.testpgm.src
rlib pascaln.testpgm.src

/* rmemb = receive member, smemb = send member, rlib = receive library */

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 20.05.2024 um 16:54 schrieb Schmitt, Michael:

And ordinary command line FTP. For example, Windows:

prompt
ascii
quote site notrail
mget *




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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 20 May 2024 16:50:13 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:

>It is not matter of belief. I just performed a test.
>FTP GUI from IBM, part of PCOMM.
>Note, it is IBM. More: it is part of PCOMM. They know z/OS, etc.
>1. I tried to move/copy some directory.
>2. I tried to create a directory on host side.
>
>In both case a PDS was created. I cannot choose RECFM, LRECL, directory
>blocks, primary or secondary space. That should end the story.
>In case #1 none of files was transmitted because the name was not
>conforming member naming rules. Hint: it is very rare to have such files
>(no extension) in Windows.
>
I have used a GUI FTP client which supported a subcommand such as
"Send Command" which supported
SITE space, attributes
SBDATACONN
but that's abandoning GUI and reverting to command line.

I'm inclined not to "shoot the messenger" but to blame MVS for
o Absurdly limited namespace.
o Requirement to specify SPACE and attributes on directories.

I feel DSFS might be a step in the wrong direction.  Rather than
supporting Classic data sets in UNIX, why not better support
UNIX files in Classic utilities.
HLASM, for example supports UNIX directories for SYSLIB.  Why
not similarly for SYSEXEC, STEPLIB, Binder SYSLIB, ...?

>In any case when you download a PDS to PC and upload it again to (maybe
>another) z/OS image you will get *different* thing.
>Maybe it would be sufficient for test members with "this is a test"
>content, but definitely not for source code of binary content.
>
>Oh, did I mention there is no choice of codepages?
>
(Less problem for us anglophones. :-)

>Of course I know how to use XMIT... but again - how to edit the content
>on PC side? I assume it is regular text content. Just change HLQ is some
>job, one of many.
>
It ought to be possible from a desktop client to request that the
z/OS server create or extract such a NETDATA package.

-- 
gil

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Schmitt, Michael]

And ordinary command line FTP. For example, Windows:

prompt
ascii
quote site notrail
mget *

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

Bluezone FTP lets you copy the entire PDS to a directory on your PC and change 
from EBCDIC to ASCII.  I have been using it for years.

Brian

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

It is not matter of belief. I just performed a test.
FTP GUI from IBM, part of PCOMM.
Note, it is IBM. More: it is part of PCOMM. They know z/OS, etc.
1. I tried to move/copy some directory.
2. I tried to create a directory on host side.

In both case a PDS was created. I cannot choose RECFM, LRECL, directory 
blocks, primary or secondary space. That should end the story.
In case #1 none of files was transmitted because the name was not 
conforming member naming rules. Hint: it is very rare to have such files 
(no extension) in Windows.


In any case when you download a PDS to PC and upload it again to (maybe 
another) z/OS image you will get *different* thing.
Maybe it would be sufficient for test members with "this is a test" 
content, but definitely not for source code of binary content.


Oh, did I mention there is no choice of codepages?

Of course I know how to use XMIT... but again - how to edit the content 
on PC side? I assume it is regular text content. Just change HLQ is some 
job, one of many.


I can manage all of such issues, but I am definitely not a newbie.
The only thing I still cannot do is to convince my students the 
z/OS<->PC data exchange is easy and well tooled.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




W dniu 20.05.2024 o 16:26, Tony Thigpen pisze:
I can't believe you put a GUI FTP client in a list of not-acceptable 
options. If that does not work for you, you are just too picky.


Tony Thigpen

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote on 5/19/24 3:07 PM:

Which platform? ALL. That means Windows, Linux and Mac.
We can omit OS/2 or VMS or DG-UX or QNX or etc.

Which codepages? All. Let's say all supported by z/OS when using FTP 
or iconv.


FTP GUI clients? Yet another XMIT viewer? Both do not satisfy all the 
needs.
Last but not least - nowadays it is harder and harder to manage 
permissions for installation of some homegrown piece of software. It 
is quite feasible to convince security guys to get permission for 
installation of IBM product, downloadable from IBM site, but try the 
same with XMIT manager downloadable from... "the page does no longer 
exists, but you know, there is some freeware page, called 
cbttape...". Yes, it is much harder. BTDT.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 18.05.2024 o 23:32, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:15:26 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

    ...
Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX
scripts, etc.


for which desktop target platforms?


But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such
tools. It need not to be officially supported.
IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but 
such

simple things like PDS to directory are still left.


for which desktop target platforms?

But if it's  Java, it might be nonpartisan.



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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Tony Thigpen]

I can't believe you put a GUI FTP client in a list of not-acceptable 
options. If that does not work for you, you are just too picky.


Tony Thigpen

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote on 5/19/24 3:07 PM:

Which platform? ALL. That means Windows, Linux and Mac.
We can omit OS/2 or VMS or DG-UX or QNX or etc.

Which codepages? All. Let's say all supported by z/OS when using FTP or 
iconv.


FTP GUI clients? Yet another XMIT viewer? Both do not satisfy all the 
needs.
Last but not least - nowadays it is harder and harder to manage 
permissions for installation of some homegrown piece of software. It is 
quite feasible to convince security guys to get permission for 
installation of IBM product, downloadable from IBM site, but try the 
same with XMIT manager downloadable from... "the page does no longer 
exists, but you know, there is some freeware page, called cbttape...". 
Yes, it is much harder. BTDT.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 18.05.2024 o 23:32, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:15:26 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

    ...
Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX
scripts, etc.


for which desktop target platforms?


But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such
tools. It need not to be officially supported.
IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but such
simple things like PDS to directory are still left.


for which desktop target platforms?

But if it's  Java, it might be nonpartisan.



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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

Which platform? ALL. That means Windows, Linux and Mac.
We can omit OS/2 or VMS or DG-UX or QNX or etc.

Which codepages? All. Let's say all supported by z/OS when using FTP or 
iconv.


FTP GUI clients? Yet another XMIT viewer? Both do not satisfy all the 
needs.
Last but not least - nowadays it is harder and harder to manage 
permissions for installation of some homegrown piece of software. It is 
quite feasible to convince security guys to get permission for 
installation of IBM product, downloadable from IBM site, but try the 
same with XMIT manager downloadable from... "the page does no longer 
exists, but you know, there is some freeware page, called cbttape...". 
Yes, it is much harder. BTDT.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 18.05.2024 o 23:32, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:15:26 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

...
Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX
scripts, etc.


for which desktop target platforms?


But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such
tools. It need not to be officially supported.
IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but such
simple things like PDS to directory are still left.


for which desktop target platforms?

But if it's  Java, it might be nonpartisan.



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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Charles Mills]

You know, I don't think I have ever had to think about it. I just started using 
WS_FTP and it just worked. My C { braces } and [ brackets ] and my Rexx |. (I 
use \ for logical not.)

Perhaps I have forgotten some issue. But I use WS_FTP across four systems, some 
of them relatively new to me, so I would definitely recall if I had to do 
something specific on the mainframe end.

Charles

On Sun, 19 May 2024 11:24:23 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

>On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:49:20 -0500, Brian Westerman  wrote:
>
>>Bluezone FTP lets you copy the entire PDS to a directory on your PC and 
>>change from EBCDIC to ASCII.  I have been using it for years.
>>
>>
>What code page(s) does it support?
>
>How does it deal with characters not in the target character set?  UTF-8?
>'€' and '¬'  cone to mind immediately.

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:49:20 -0500, Brian Westerman  wrote:

>Bluezone FTP lets you copy the entire PDS to a directory on your PC and change 
>from EBCDIC to ASCII.  I have been using it for years.
>
>
What code page(s) does it support?

How does it deal with characters not in the target character set?  UTF-8?
'€' and '¬'  cone to mind immediately.

Does it use the dreadful archaic "default standard TCP/IP table" still
used by some IBM products?


SITE SBDATACONN would be better if available.

-- 
gil

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Brian Westerman]

Bluezone FTP lets you copy the entire PDS to a directory on your PC and change 
from EBCDIC to ASCII.  I have been using it for years.

Brian

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Seymour J Metz]

The same is true for, e.g., InfoConnect Reflection.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Charles Mills 
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 8:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

I'm late to the party here so I'm not sure if what I quote below is the 
original query but unless I am missing something, most or all of the Windows 
graphical FTP clients will do that. FileZilla is free. WS_FTP may be free for 
individual use. There may be others. They will graphically expand a z/OS PDS(E) 
(a la Windows File Explorer or ISPF, more or less) and you can drag one, 
several or all members from the PDS(E) to a Windows folder, or vice versa, with 
or without ASCII translation. WS_FTP will also (but FileZilla will not) do 
extension generation or conversion. So you can copy all of the members of a 
PDS(E) and have them end up on Windows as *.asm, or copy from Windows to a 
PDS(E) and not have it complain that WHATEVER.ASM is not a valid member name. I 
also copy between Windows and OMVS folders, and have WS_FTP convert *.cpp to 
*.C and vice versa (following the different naming conventions for C++ source 
on the two platforms).

Or am I missing something (not the first time )?

Charles

>W dniu 14.04.2024 o 03:01, Michael Oujesky pisze:
>> I really miss WSA and it's ability to take a text PDS and transfer all
>> the members to Windows creating individual members in the target
>> directory and doing the EBCDIC to ASCII translation for each member in
>> the PDS.

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Charles Mills]

I'm late to the party here so I'm not sure if what I quote below is the 
original query but unless I am missing something, most or all of the Windows 
graphical FTP clients will do that. FileZilla is free. WS_FTP may be free for 
individual use. There may be others. They will graphically expand a z/OS PDS(E) 
(a la Windows File Explorer or ISPF, more or less) and you can drag one, 
several or all members from the PDS(E) to a Windows folder, or vice versa, with 
or without ASCII translation. WS_FTP will also (but FileZilla will not) do 
extension generation or conversion. So you can copy all of the members of a 
PDS(E) and have them end up on Windows as *.asm, or copy from Windows to a 
PDS(E) and not have it complain that WHATEVER.ASM is not a valid member name. I 
also copy between Windows and OMVS folders, and have WS_FTP convert *.cpp to 
*.C and vice versa (following the different naming conventions for C++ source 
on the two platforms).

Or am I missing something (not the first time )?

Charles

>W dniu 14.04.2024 o 03:01, Michael Oujesky pisze:
>> I really miss WSA and it's ability to take a text PDS and transfer all
>> the members to Windows creating individual members in the target
>> directory and doing the EBCDIC to ASCII translation for each member in
>> the PDS.

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Robert Prins]

https://github.com/dmolony/Xmit by Dennis Molony, written in Java, so
Windoze, Linux and Mac are supported, as are user-defined code-pages.

Robert

On Sat, 18 May 2024 at 21:37, Mike Schwab <
05962a42dc49-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Here's what is available.  Please submit any additions you may know.
>
> https://www.cbttape.org/xmitview.htm
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 4:32 PM Paul Gilmartin
> <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:15:26 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
> > >...
> > >Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX
> > >scripts, etc.
> > >
> > for which desktop target platforms?
> >
> > >But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
> > >IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such
> > >tools. It need not to be officially supported.
> > >IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but such
> > >simple things like PDS to directory are still left.
> > >
> > for which desktop target platforms?
> >
> > But if it's  Java, it might be nonpartisan.
> >
> > --
> > gil
> >
> > --
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> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
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-- 
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather 
Some REXX code for use on z/OS


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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Mike Schwab]

Here's what is available.  Please submit any additions you may know.

https://www.cbttape.org/xmitview.htm

On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 4:32 PM Paul Gilmartin
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:15:26 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
> >...
> >Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX
> >scripts, etc.
> >
> for which desktop target platforms?
>
> >But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
> >IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such
> >tools. It need not to be officially supported.
> >IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but such
> >simple things like PDS to directory are still left.
> >
> for which desktop target platforms?
>
> But if it's  Java, it might be nonpartisan.
>
> --
> gil
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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-- 
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:15:26 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>...
>Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX
>scripts, etc.
>
for which desktop target platforms?

>But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
>IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such
>tools. It need not to be officially supported.
>IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but such
>simple things like PDS to directory are still left.
>
for which desktop target platforms?

But if it's  Java, it might be nonpartisan.

-- 
gil

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Re: ./ ADD - which utility? (RANT)

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 14.04.2024 o 03:01, Michael Oujesky pisze:
I really miss WSA and it's ability to take a text PDS and transfer all 
the members to Windows creating individual members in the target 
directory and doing the EBCDIC to ASCII translation for each member in 
the PDS.


I'm really upset and I really miss the set of simple tools for such 
simple things like PDS<->PC directory. With XMIT support.
Yes, we have some freeware XMIT viewers, we have some homegrown REXX 
scripts, etc.

But it is continuous reinventing the wheel.
IMHO it is up to IBM to assign few folks for few weeks to prepare such 
tools. It need not to be officially supported.
IBM invest a lot of effort in z/OSMF and other "modernization", but such 
simple things like PDS to directory are still left.


--

Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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