Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[David Crayford]

On 13/2/23 02:34, Hobart Spitz wrote:

IMHO, the fault lies in the character stream orientation of UNIX, C, HTML
etc.  The shorted-sighted design was motivated by the limited budgets and
underpowered systems of many early UNIX users.

On record oriented systems, (z/OS and z/VM) common operations are faster,
because the needed information is not embedded in the data.  For example:

- Read/skip-to the next record.
- Find/check the length of a string.


Can you please provide evidence to support that assumption?




On byte stream oriented systems, every single character, including the
otherwise uninteresting ones, must go through the CPU for such operations.
Record oriented systems can efficiently add the record length to the
current record address, or compare a target character position to the
length of the record to avoid string overflow (e.g).



What are you talking about? Writing a UNIX program that reads/writes 
length-prefixed records to a file is a simple task. Do you mean to say 
that all I/O performed on LUW systems involves line-delimited text files?





Anyone who understands that global warming and climate change are
existential threats and that it may be too late to avoid catastrophic
impacts would be well advised to keep their record oriented systems and
move away from UNIX, Linux, and Windows where feasible.



Arm servers outperform all competition in terms of performance per watt. 
One can buy an Ampere server with 128 cores per socket, consuming an 
impressively low 250W of power. A few years ago, I came across an 
excellent article regarding the IBM z196, written in collaboration with 
IBM. The article stated that, " "Even when aggressively cooled, the 
~250W z196 dissipates over 70W of leakage, which is more than the total 
power budget for many commodity server processors." Mainframes are 
designed to operate at maximum capacity with redundancy integrated into 
a single platform, which requires a significant amount of power.


[1] https://www.realworldtech.com/z196-mainframe/8/



Just my "buck three eighty", or two cents if you prefer.

OREXXMan
Q: What do you call the residence of the ungulate with the largest antlers?
A: A moose pad.
:-D
Would you rather pass data in move mode (*nix piping) or locate mode
(Pipes) or via disk (JCL)?  Why do you think you rarely see *nix commands
with more than a dozen filters, while Pipelines specifications are commonly
over 100s of stages, and 1000s of stages are not uncommon.
REXX is the new C.


On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:37 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


Correct. I copied the article from the NYT & then reposted the paragraph
in the article which discussed the study.



Heh - I don't think those are rankings - just (former) links from the
article in whatever publication Bill copied from.



...
The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields,

are owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft,

Amazon

and Facebook.

...
Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of

economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a

problem.

Do they use:
o IBM z?
o IBM supercomputers?
o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?


At one time Facebook published detailed specs for its homegrown PC servers,
in contrast to the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, for whom it's
all trade secrets. I've no idea if they've kept the specs current. Lynn
Wheeler wrote about this stuff a number of times when he was active on
IBM-MAIN, though mostly from an available-compute-power perspective rather
than a power efficiency one.

Tony H.

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Mike Schwab]

The cost to the fixed length fields and records is padding with
blanks.  That results in streaming files having a 2/1 compression
ratio and fixed length files having a 4/1 ratio.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 12:34 PM Hobart Spitz  wrote:
>
> IMHO, the fault lies in the character stream orientation of UNIX, C, HTML
> etc.  The shorted-sighted design was motivated by the limited budgets and
> underpowered systems of many early UNIX users.
>
> On record oriented systems, (z/OS and z/VM) common operations are faster,
> because the needed information is not embedded in the data.  For example:
>
>- Read/skip-to the next record.
>- Find/check the length of a string.
>
> On byte stream oriented systems, every single character, including the
> otherwise uninteresting ones, must go through the CPU for such operations.
> Record oriented systems can efficiently add the record length to the
> current record address, or compare a target character position to the
> length of the record to avoid string overflow (e.g).
>
> It doesn't help that most character oriented systems use 16 bit characters
> whereas most work on zSeries is done with 8-byte characters.  The workload,
> all other things being equal, is essentially doubled.  As stated above, all
> other things are anything but equal.
>
> Note that UNIX (etc.) systems originally used 4K buffers between pipe
> stages;  Most such systems now use 64K buffers to support the heavy load of
> characters run through the CPU and to reduce costly redispatching.
>
> It may be related that IBM went from two cache levels to four about the
> time USS was added.  More hardware manufacturing and heat generation
> resulted.
>
> Unfortunately this mistake is so pervasive that it might never be fixed.
> The impact is not just on electricity usage, but also on global warming and
> climate change due to extra cooling and extra hardware.
>
> Anyone who understands that global warming and climate change are
> existential threats and that it may be too late to avoid catastrophic
> impacts would be well advised to keep their record oriented systems and
> move away from UNIX, Linux, and Windows where feasible.
>
> Just my "buck three eighty", or two cents if you prefer.
>
> OREXXMan
> Q: What do you call the residence of the ungulate with the largest antlers?
> A: A moose pad.
> :-D
> Would you rather pass data in move mode (*nix piping) or locate mode
> (Pipes) or via disk (JCL)?  Why do you think you rarely see *nix commands
> with more than a dozen filters, while Pipelines specifications are commonly
> over 100s of stages, and 1000s of stages are not uncommon.
> REXX is the new C.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:37 PM Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > Correct. I copied the article from the NYT & then reposted the paragraph
> > in the article which discussed the study.
> >
> >
> >
> > Heh - I don't think those are rankings - just (former) links from the
> > article in whatever publication Bill copied from.
> >
> >
> > > >...
> > > >The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields,
> > > are owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft,
> > Amazon
> > > and Facebook.
> > > >...
> > > >Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of
> > > economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a
> > problem.
> > > >
> > > Do they use:
> > > o IBM z?
> > > o IBM supercomputers?
> > > o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
> > >
> >
> > At one time Facebook published detailed specs for its homegrown PC servers,
> > in contrast to the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, for whom it's
> > all trade secrets. I've no idea if they've kept the specs current. Lynn
> > Wheeler wrote about this stuff a number of times when he was active on
> > IBM-MAIN, though mostly from an available-compute-power perspective rather
> > than a power efficiency one.
> >
> > Tony H.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 12:34:18 -0600, Hobart Spitz  wrote:

>IMHO, the fault lies in the character stream orientation of UNIX, C, HTML
>etc.  The shorted-sighted design was motivated by the limited budgets and
>underpowered systems of many early UNIX users.
>
"Underpowered" systems led to power-hungry operating systems?

>...
>Anyone who understands that global warming and climate change are
>existential threats and that it may be too late to avoid catastrophic
>impacts would be well advised to keep their record oriented systems and
>move away from UNIX, Linux, and Windows where feasible.
>
You should advocate for IBM to make available an attractive, practical, personal
version of z/OS.  Many followers of this forum would welcome that for reasons
beyond environmentalism.

-- 
gil

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Seymour J Metz]

Four level cache in 1994?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Hobart Spitz 
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2023 1:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Irish data centersan opportunity?

IMHO, the fault lies in the character stream orientation of UNIX, C, HTML
etc.  The shorted-sighted design was motivated by the limited budgets and
underpowered systems of many early UNIX users.

On record oriented systems, (z/OS and z/VM) common operations are faster,
because the needed information is not embedded in the data.  For example:

   - Read/skip-to the next record.
   - Find/check the length of a string.

On byte stream oriented systems, every single character, including the
otherwise uninteresting ones, must go through the CPU for such operations.
Record oriented systems can efficiently add the record length to the
current record address, or compare a target character position to the
length of the record to avoid string overflow (e.g).

It doesn't help that most character oriented systems use 16 bit characters
whereas most work on zSeries is done with 8-byte characters.  The workload,
all other things being equal, is essentially doubled.  As stated above, all
other things are anything but equal.

Note that UNIX (etc.) systems originally used 4K buffers between pipe
stages;  Most such systems now use 64K buffers to support the heavy load of
characters run through the CPU and to reduce costly redispatching.

It may be related that IBM went from two cache levels to four about the
time USS was added.  More hardware manufacturing and heat generation
resulted.

Unfortunately this mistake is so pervasive that it might never be fixed.
The impact is not just on electricity usage, but also on global warming and
climate change due to extra cooling and extra hardware.

Anyone who understands that global warming and climate change are
existential threats and that it may be too late to avoid catastrophic
impacts would be well advised to keep their record oriented systems and
move away from UNIX, Linux, and Windows where feasible.

Just my "buck three eighty", or two cents if you prefer.

OREXXMan
Q: What do you call the residence of the ungulate with the largest antlers?
A: A moose pad.
:-D
Would you rather pass data in move mode (*nix piping) or locate mode
(Pipes) or via disk (JCL)?  Why do you think you rarely see *nix commands
with more than a dozen filters, while Pipelines specifications are commonly
over 100s of stages, and 1000s of stages are not uncommon.
REXX is the new C.


On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:37 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Correct. I copied the article from the NYT & then reposted the paragraph
> in the article which discussed the study.
>
>
>
> Heh - I don't think those are rankings - just (former) links from the
> article in whatever publication Bill copied from.
>
>
> > >...
> > >The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields,
> > are owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft,
> Amazon
> > and Facebook.
> > >...
> > >Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of
> > economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a
> problem.
> > >
> > Do they use:
> > o IBM z?
> > o IBM supercomputers?
> > o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
> >
>
> At one time Facebook published detailed specs for its homegrown PC servers,
> in contrast to the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, for whom it's
> all trade secrets. I've no idea if they've kept the specs current. Lynn
> Wheeler wrote about this stuff a number of times when he was active on
> IBM-MAIN, though mostly from an available-compute-power perspective rather
> than a power efficiency one.
>
> Tony H.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Hobart Spitz]

IMHO, the fault lies in the character stream orientation of UNIX, C, HTML
etc.  The shorted-sighted design was motivated by the limited budgets and
underpowered systems of many early UNIX users.

On record oriented systems, (z/OS and z/VM) common operations are faster,
because the needed information is not embedded in the data.  For example:

   - Read/skip-to the next record.
   - Find/check the length of a string.

On byte stream oriented systems, every single character, including the
otherwise uninteresting ones, must go through the CPU for such operations.
Record oriented systems can efficiently add the record length to the
current record address, or compare a target character position to the
length of the record to avoid string overflow (e.g).

It doesn't help that most character oriented systems use 16 bit characters
whereas most work on zSeries is done with 8-byte characters.  The workload,
all other things being equal, is essentially doubled.  As stated above, all
other things are anything but equal.

Note that UNIX (etc.) systems originally used 4K buffers between pipe
stages;  Most such systems now use 64K buffers to support the heavy load of
characters run through the CPU and to reduce costly redispatching.

It may be related that IBM went from two cache levels to four about the
time USS was added.  More hardware manufacturing and heat generation
resulted.

Unfortunately this mistake is so pervasive that it might never be fixed.
The impact is not just on electricity usage, but also on global warming and
climate change due to extra cooling and extra hardware.

Anyone who understands that global warming and climate change are
existential threats and that it may be too late to avoid catastrophic
impacts would be well advised to keep their record oriented systems and
move away from UNIX, Linux, and Windows where feasible.

Just my "buck three eighty", or two cents if you prefer.

OREXXMan
Q: What do you call the residence of the ungulate with the largest antlers?
A: A moose pad.
:-D
Would you rather pass data in move mode (*nix piping) or locate mode
(Pipes) or via disk (JCL)?  Why do you think you rarely see *nix commands
with more than a dozen filters, while Pipelines specifications are commonly
over 100s of stages, and 1000s of stages are not uncommon.
REXX is the new C.


On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:37 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Correct. I copied the article from the NYT & then reposted the paragraph
> in the article which discussed the study.
>
>
>
> Heh - I don't think those are rankings - just (former) links from the
> article in whatever publication Bill copied from.
>
>
> > >...
> > >The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields,
> > are owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft,
> Amazon
> > and Facebook.
> > >...
> > >Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of
> > economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a
> problem.
> > >
> > Do they use:
> > o IBM z?
> > o IBM supercomputers?
> > o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
> >
>
> At one time Facebook published detailed specs for its homegrown PC servers,
> in contrast to the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, for whom it's
> all trade secrets. I've no idea if they've kept the specs current. Lynn
> Wheeler wrote about this stuff a number of times when he was active on
> IBM-MAIN, though mostly from an available-compute-power perspective rather
> than a power efficiency one.
>
> Tony H.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Bill Johnson]

Correct. I copied the article from the NYT & then reposted the paragraph in the 
article which discussed the study. 



Heh - I don't think those are rankings - just (former) links from the
article in whatever publication Bill copied from.


> >    ...
> >The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields,
> are owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon
> and Facebook.
> >    ...
> >Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of
> economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.
> >
> Do they use:
> o IBM z?
> o IBM supercomputers?
> o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
>

At one time Facebook published detailed specs for its homegrown PC servers,
in contrast to the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, for whom it's
all trade secrets. I've no idea if they've kept the specs current. Lynn
Wheeler wrote about this stuff a number of times when he was active on
IBM-MAIN, though mostly from an available-compute-power perspective rather
than a power efficiency one.

Tony H.

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Tony Harminc]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 13:22, Paul Gilmartin <
042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:40:21 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >...
> >The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are
> multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new
> study says.
> >
> >   - Share on Facebook
> >   - Share on WhatsApp
> >   - Post on Twitter
> >   - Mail
> >
> Are these ranked?  Actual numbers would be interesting.  "Mail" surprises
> me.  But I mail few
> resources and I don't quote attachments.  In fact, I prune quotations.
>

Heh - I don't think those are rankings - just (former) links from the
article in whatever publication Bill copied from.


> >...
> >The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields,
> are owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon
> and Facebook.
> >...
> >Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of
> economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.
> >
> Do they use:
> o IBM z?
> o IBM supercomputers?
> o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
>

At one time Facebook published detailed specs for its homegrown PC servers,
in contrast to the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, for whom it's
all trade secrets. I've no idea if they've kept the specs current. Lynn
Wheeler wrote about this stuff a number of times when he was active on
IBM-MAIN, though mostly from an available-compute-power perspective rather
than a power efficiency one.

Tony H.

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Charles Mills]

And it is called Z. O'Ess, after all.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bill Johnson
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2023 2:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Irish data centersan opportunity?

This is an interesting piece by 2 people, Jonathan Koomey & Eric Masanet who 
appear to be experts in data center electrical usage. They point out the flaws  
in some analysis.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435121002117

Their analysis was also in the NY Times.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, February 11, 2023, 3:23 PM, Doug  wrote:

I'd love to see the raw data they based this "research" on.

I have ALWAYS found, "If it sounds too good to be true, its usually 
is"


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 11-Feb-23 13:50:52
Subject: Re: Irish data centersan opportunity?

>I don’t know, but I imagine there is more detail in the scientific study it’s 
>based on. I don’t have access to it.
>
>The study findings were published on Thursday in an article in the journal 
>Science. It was a collaboration of five scientists at Northwestern University, 
>the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and an independent research firm. 
>The project was funded by the Department of Energy and by a grant from a 
>Northwestern alumnus who is an environmental philanthropist.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Saturday, February 11, 2023, 1:22 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
><042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:40:21 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>...
>>The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are 
>>multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new 
>>study says.
>>
>>  - Share on Facebook
>>  - Share on WhatsApp
>>  - Post on Twitter
>>  - Mail
>>
>Are these ranked?  Actual numbers would be interesting.  "Mail" surprises me.  
>But I mail few
>resources and I don't quote attachments.  In fact, I prune quotations.
>
>>...
>>The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields, are 
>>owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and 
>>Facebook.
>>...
>>Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of 
>>economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.
>>
>Do they use:
>o IBM z?
>o IBM supercomputers?
>o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
>
>--
>gil
>
>--
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>
>
>
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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Bill Johnson]

This is an interesting piece by 2 people, Jonathan Koomey & Eric Masanet who 
appear to be experts in data center electrical usage. They point out the flaws  
in some analysis.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435121002117

Their analysis was also in the NY Times.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, February 11, 2023, 3:23 PM, Doug  wrote:

I'd love to see the raw data they based this "research" on.

I have ALWAYS found, "If it sounds too good to be true, its usually 
is"


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 11-Feb-23 13:50:52
Subject: Re: Irish data centersan opportunity?

>I don’t know, but I imagine there is more detail in the scientific study it’s 
>based on. I don’t have access to it.
>
>The study findings were published on Thursday in an article in the journal 
>Science. It was a collaboration of five scientists at Northwestern University, 
>the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and an independent research firm. 
>The project was funded by the Department of Energy and by a grant from a 
>Northwestern alumnus who is an environmental philanthropist.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Saturday, February 11, 2023, 1:22 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
><042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:40:21 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>    ...
>>The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are 
>>multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new 
>>study says.
>>
>>  - Share on Facebook
>>  - Share on WhatsApp
>>  - Post on Twitter
>>  - Mail
>>
>Are these ranked?  Actual numbers would be interesting.  "Mail" surprises me.  
>But I mail few
>resources and I don't quote attachments.  In fact, I prune quotations.
>
>>    ...
>>The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields, are 
>>owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and 
>>Facebook.
>>    ...
>>Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of 
>>economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.
>>
>Do they use:
>o IBM z?
>o IBM supercomputers?
>o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?
>
>--
>gil
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Doug]

I'd love to see the raw data they based this "research" on.

I have ALWAYS found, "If it sounds too good to be true, its usually 
is"



Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 11-Feb-23 13:50:52
Subject: Re: Irish data centersan opportunity?


I don’t know, but I imagine there is more detail in the scientific study it’s 
based on. I don’t have access to it.

The study findings were published on Thursday in an article in the journal 
Science. It was a collaboration of five scientists at Northwestern University, 
the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and an independent research firm. The 
project was funded by the Department of Energy and by a grant from a 
Northwestern alumnus who is an environmental philanthropist.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, February 11, 2023, 1:22 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:40:21 +, Bill Johnson wrote:

...
The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are 
multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new 
study says.

  - Share on Facebook
  - Share on WhatsApp
  - Post on Twitter
  - Mail


Are these ranked?  Actual numbers would be interesting.  "Mail" surprises me.  
But I mail few
resources and I don't quote attachments.  In fact, I prune quotations.


...
The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields, are 
owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and 
Facebook.
...
Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of 
economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.


Do they use:
o IBM z?
o IBM supercomputers?
o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?

--
gil

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Bob Bridges]

This is just a reflex, but that's VERY unlikely.  Such predictions are almost 
always based on "if this trend continues...".  But trends never continue - 
never.

Mind you, sometimes they change for the worse.  But 27% doesn't sound plausible.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal 
for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for 
the firmness and efficiency of government.  History will teach us that the 
former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism 
than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of 
republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious 
court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.  -Alexander 
Hamilton, _Federalist_ #1 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dave Jones
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2023 11:26

All good questions, Paul. And you are correct about the URL, too, thanks for 
fixing that.
The article does claim that data centres (sp?) could take up 27% of the [Irish] 
national electricity output by 2029.

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Bill Johnson]

I don’t know, but I imagine there is more detail in the scientific study it’s 
based on. I don’t have access to it.

The study findings were published on Thursday in an article in the journal 
Science. It was a collaboration of five scientists at Northwestern University, 
the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and an independent research firm. The 
project was funded by the Department of Energy and by a grant from a 
Northwestern alumnus who is an environmental philanthropist.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, February 11, 2023, 1:22 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:40:21 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
>    ...
>The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are 
>multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new 
>study says.
>  
>  - Share on Facebook
>  - Share on WhatsApp
>  - Post on Twitter
>  - Mail
>
Are these ranked?  Actual numbers would be interesting.  "Mail" surprises me.  
But I mail few
resources and I don't quote attachments.  In fact, I prune quotations.

>    ...
>The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields, are 
>owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and 
>Facebook.
>    ...
>Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of 
>economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.
>
Do they use:
o IBM z?
o IBM supercomputers?
o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?

-- 
gil

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:40:21 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
>...
>The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are 
>multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new 
>study says.
>   
>   - Share on Facebook
>   - Share on WhatsApp
>   - Post on Twitter
>   - Mail
>
Are these ranked?  Actual numbers would be interesting.  "Mail" surprises me.  
But I mail few
resources and I don't quote attachments.  In fact, I prune quotations.

>...
>The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields, are 
>owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and 
>Facebook.
>...
>Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of 
>economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.
>
Do they use:
o IBM z?
o IBM supercomputers?
o Others, such as overseas-sourced (specify)?

-- 
gil

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Bill Johnson]

Not as bad as feared. And I’m an environmentalist.




Cloud Computing Is Not the Energy Hog That Had Been Feared

The digital services churned out by the world’s computer centers are 
multiplying, but their energy use is not, thanks to cloud computing, a new 
study says.
   
   - Share on Facebook
   - Share on WhatsApp
   - Post on Twitter
   - Mail
ImageMajd Bakar, a Google vice president. The largest cloud data centers are 
owned and operated by big tech companies like Google.Credit...Josh 
Edelson/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
By Steve Lohr
Feb. 27, 2020
The computer engine rooms that power the digital economy have become 
surprisingly energy efficient.

A new study of data centers globally found that while their computing output 
jumped sixfold from 2010 to 2018, their energy consumption rose only 6 percent. 
The scientists’ findings suggest concerns that the rise of mammoth data centers 
would generate a surge in electricity demand and pollution have been greatly 
overstated.

The major force behind the improving efficiency is the shift to cloud 
computing. In the cloud model, businesses and individuals consume computing 
over the internet as services, from raw calculation and data storage to search 
and social networks.

The largest cloud data centers, sometimes the size of football fields, are 
owned and operated by big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and 
Facebook.

Each of these sprawling digital factories, housing hundreds of thousands of 
computers, rack upon rack, is an energy-hungry behemoth. Some have been built 
near the Arctic for natural cooling and others beside huge hydroelectric plants 
in the Pacific Northwest.




Still, they are the standard setters in terms of the amount of electricity 
needed for a computing task. “The public thinks these massive data centers are 
energy bad guys,” said Eric Masanet, the lead author of the study. “But those 
data centers are the most efficient in the world.”

The study findings were published on Thursday in an article in the journal 
Science. It was a collaboration of five scientists at Northwestern University, 
the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and an independent research firm. The 
project was funded by the Department of Energy and by a grant from a 
Northwestern alumnus who is an environmental philanthropist.

The new research is a stark contrast to often-cited predictions that energy 
consumption in the world’s data centers is on a runaway path, perhaps set to 
triple or more over the next decade. Those worrying projections, the study 
authors say, are simplistic extrapolations and what-if scenarios that focus 
mainly on the rising demand for data center computing.

By contrast, the new research is a bottom-up analysis that compiles information 
on data center processors, storage, software, networking and cooling from a 
range of sources to estimate actual electricity use. Enormous efficiency 
improvements, they conclude, have allowed computing output to increase sharply 
while power consumption has been essentially flat.




“We’re hopeful that this research will reset people’s intuitions about data 
centers and energy use,” said Jonathan Koomey, a former scientist at the 
Berkeley lab who is an independent researcher.

Over the years, data center electricity consumption has been a story of 
economic incentives and technology advances combining to tackle a problem.

>From 2000 to 2005, energy use in computer centers doubled. In 2007, the 
>Environmental Protection Agency forecast another doubling of power consumed by 
>data centers from 2005 to 2010.

In 2011, at the request of The New York Times, Mr. Koomey made an assessment of 
how much data center electricity consumption actually did increase between 2005 
and 2010. He estimated the global increase at 56 percent, far less than 
previously expected. The recession after the 2008 financial crisis played a 
role, but so did gains in efficiency. The new study, with added data, lowered 
that 2005 to 2010 estimate further.




But the big improvements have come in recent years. Since 2010, the study 
authors write in Science, “the data center landscape has changed dramatically.”

The tectonic shift has been to the cloud. In 2010, the researchers estimated 
that 79 percent of data center computing was done in smaller traditional 
computer centers, largely owned and run by non-tech companies. By 2018, 89 
percent of data center computing took place in larger, utility-style cloud data 
centers.

The big cloud data centers use tailored chips, high-density storage, so-called 
virtual-machine software, ultrafast networking and customized airflow systems — 
all to increase computing firepower with the least electricity.

“The big tech companies eke out every bit of efficiency for every dollar they 
spend,” said Mr. Masanet, who left Northwestern last month to join the faculty 
of the University of California, Santa Barbara.




Google is at the forefront. Its data centers 

Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Joel C. Ewing]

Interesting that Ireland & concern for electric power consumption by 
computers should appear together in a new context.


In late 2017 there were articles widely quoted (and since questioned on 
accuracy) that use of computers for mining cryptocurrency was estimated 
to consume annually more electrical power world-wide than the entire 
annual electric power consumption of Ireland.  The assumptions made in 
that estimate have caused its accuracy to be questioned, but the usage 
by this activity is still considered sufficiently significant that an 
increasing number of countries with stressed electric power grids have 
put restrictions on cryptocurrency mining.


Cryptocurrency mining makes the most sense in locales where there is 
cheap electricity available, which I gather is not the case in Ireland, 
where electricity is reportedly among the most expensive in Europe; so 
presumably the concerns in this article are about more conventional data 
center power usage.


    Joel C. Ewing

On 2/11/23 09:40, Dave Jones wrote:

Recently the BBC posted an article about how the grow in Irish data centers (or "centres" 
for the Brits) is causing a possible power crises. See "Can we make the internet less 
power-thirsty?" (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64429819). Sounds like a great opportunity 
for IBM to highlight the sustainability of large numbers of Linux on z servers running on a z16 box.
Hopefully somebody at IBM is taking a hard look at this now.

And the Brits seem to get it:
-
He points out that using the term "cloud" is highly misleading, as it is "a very 
physical thing".

The cloud does not float in the atmosphere, it consists of computer servers 
with a vast appetite for electricity.
The Irish example highlights how a combination of environmental concerns and 
worries about capacity in the grid have triggered a race to save the reputation 
of the data centre industry.
--
DJ

...


--
Joel C. Ewing

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Dave Jones]

All good questions, Paul. And you are correct about the URL, too, thanks for 
fixing that.
The article does claim that data centres (sp?) could take up 27% of the [Irish] 
national electricity output by 2029.
DJ

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Re: Irish data centers....an opportunity?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 09:40:30 -0600, Dave Jones wrote:

>Recently the BBC posted an article about how the grow in Irish data centers 
>(or "centres" for the Brits) is causing a possible power crises. See "Can we 
>make the internet less power-thirsty?" 
>(https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64429819). Sounds like a great opportunity 
>for IBM to highlight the sustainability of large numbers of Linux on z servers 
>running on a z16 box. 
>Hopefully somebody at IBM is taking a hard look at this now.
>
Link on listserv.ua gets 404.  Perhaps: 
?

Do z systems, like personal systems, operate at reduced energy consumption when 
idle?
It's only a partial answer that the z is optimized for peak performance 24*7*52.

Popular media, driven by sensation, emphasize the demands of crypto mining.  
How does that
compare?  And what fraction of total energy use, including domestic, 
agriculture, transportation,
manufacturing ...?

-- 
gil

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