[IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Arena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He > looks like a different horse now. His whole face has softened and he has a > light in his eyes and an enthusiasm for life that wasn't there before. > > Some of the most well behaved horses that you see out in the world are > actually very shut down horses. The same is true of children! Most horse > owners don't want horses who think for themselves. They want horses who > obey orders from headquarters, no questions asked. > > I want my horses to feel free to express their opinions, in a safe manner, > knowing that they will not be punished for it. I want them to know that > they will be listened to, and will not be forced to do anything that they > are truly uncomfortable with. If they tell me that they can't do something, > I believe them. > > Are they training me? Absolutely! We are partners on this journey, and we > are all learning how to find our way and get along in a manner that enhances > all of our lives. I wouldn't want it any other way! > > Mary > Mary, I'm really resonating with what you're saying here. Very well put. Sue
[IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training
> > I have trouble watching even many good NH trainers, because I can see how > clicker training would make things clearer to the horse, with less pressure > needed. For me, it takes training to another level. I can't go back! > > Mary > Sand Lake, NY > Parelli took off in this area (western North Carolina) after he made a tour through here, and according to my farrier the number of people doing bad Parelli has taken off, and he and other farriers are having a heck of a time handling "Parelli-trained" horses. In fact he asked me to join him at a clinic he was giving at Biltmore because he is so impressed with the changes in my horses after clicker training. Biltmore is now Parelli entrenched though and I didn't expect to encounter open minds in one session so i declined. Also, I think you need to make a commitment to an individual horse to work through the initial reactions a horse might have - offering behaviors, mugging for treats. I don't think clicker training is something you should do casually. I don't think I would again start clicker training a horse and then walk away leaving the initial behaviors (I think I did this to one of Karen's horses based on her story of Trausti backing up - sorry, Karen), or let rudeness take hold and never work the horse through it to the other side (I think this might have happened to Karen's horse Eitell - Karen correct me if I'm wrong). I think this is what Karen has experienced at her place...casual clicker training...and I think it's a mistake. Sue
Re: [IceHorses] Invitation to view Raven's album - 2007 Sundowner Trailer
Raven wrote: > wellif you ever needed to evacuate, you could collapse the rear > tack, and toss in all three horses. That's what has been worrying me. Thanks for that Raven. Elva
Re: [IceHorses] introducing the Sensation Chameleon package!
On 3/13/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My Sensation Dressage didn't come with leather covers at all--hmmm, looks like I should be buying some..and I like the look of the handhold cover too...but I can't figure out how the color part on the cantle attachs. How does it? V
Re: [IceHorses] Empathy for the Horse
>From Rachel: Goodness..I'm relieved to see that someone else agrees with my way of thinking! Rachel from E. KY
Re: [IceHorses] Re: [icehorsecolor] mars coat king-what is that?
Thanks Wanda Lorraine Happy Southwestern Trails
Re: [IceHorses] Invitation to view Raven's album - 2007 Sundowner Trailer
>>Actually my husband did it and I've not figured his reasoning since we have three horses. wellif you ever needed to evacuate, you could collapse the rear tack, and toss in all three horses. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn, the American Ice Pony Dixie Chic, the Barn Goddess
Re: [IceHorses] Taking the Icelandics on a trip
> Tell Carla Hello! I met her once many years ago at > Albany. Ok. No problem I can't wait. Lorraine Happy Southwestern Trails Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
[IceHorses] Re: Good Horsemanship
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Arena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do you know how big your horses' space bubbles are? Have you felt them? Do > you know how many bubbles your horses have? I love energy work, and love > exploring it with my horses. Just something different to think about. > > Mary > This is very interesting to me. I'd like to explore it more than I have. It does vary horse to horse, I have 5 of them, most still too young to be ridden. Of course I do get in their space, you kind of have to, but it's how you do it. One mare does not like me standing at her withers, this seems to be a vulnerable position for them, I noticed yesterday she actually *tolerated* it on one side, but she will back up so I am closer to her head, of course it would be a good idea to work this out before I ride her:) I like to try and get them used to, and liking, me standing next to them with my arm over them. One 3 year old is very comfortable with it, I pet her as I am doing it and she enjoys it and lowers her head. I know this is being in their space, I guess I could clicker train the one to let me in there ( I actually did ct her at once point to stand still like I was going to mount her while I was standing on something). I would really rather she like it, rather than just tolerate it. You know I think I had a battery massager that I was using on her for this issue before, she liked it and would allow me into her space for that, I think I have lost it in a move, maybe it's time to track one down and try that again. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Thresholds
On 3/13/07, Kathleen Douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And > reading your post -- well lets just say I think you have been > snooping around in my mind when I wasn't looking! What is she > feeling? why is she doing that? Should I do more, or less? Why > can't I figure out the simplest things that seem to be obvious to > everyone else? LOL--yeah--that's me to a tee! > > Last spring I found myself in complete "paralysis by analysis" mode. > So I decided to just ride Ruby and do what felt right and we were > comfortable with. To heck with everyone else and what I "ought" or > "should" do! > One minute I feel like doing that, then another I don't so I guess I'm still stuck in 'paralysis by analysis' mode. . > At least know you are not alone. Yes, it does help--thank you. :D V
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Thresholds
On 3/13/07, djakni1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I searched through the messages to find Orri's first incident of > bolting. Was it the time with the tractor in the arena? Yes--it did start with the tractor. We had circled the arena a few times without incident before he decided to shy--so I'm guessing he reached his 'threshold'. > In any case, it sounds like you are able to get him under control > again in a short time. I did that time and the few other times it happened again. I haven't ridden since I started the Parelli program in Jan though. > > My friend has an Andalusian gelding with an extremely strong flight > response. Her solution was to just relax and let him go until he > stopped on his own I've thought of doing that myself but I didn't know if that would be encouraging him to react, or if it fuel the fear. > > In attempting to do your owning training, you are doing a great job. > We all make mistakes and we learn and move on. > I'm just hoping I don't mess him up. V
[IceHorses] introducing the Sensation Chameleon package!
And these two are MINE! Karen Thomas, NC You're invited to view these photos online at KODAK EASYSHARE Gallery! Just click on View Photos to get started. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.1d1w8ykj&x=0&y=t6m0mq If you'd like to save this album, just sign in, or if you're new to the Gallery, create a free account. Once you've signed in, you'll be able to view this album whenever you want and order Kodak prints of your favorite photos. Enjoy! Instructions: Click view photos to begin. If you're an existing member you'll be asked to sign in. If not, you can join the Gallery for free. http://www.kodakgallery.com/Register.jsp Questions? Visit http://help.kodakgallery.com. EASYSHARE Gallery Customer Service Phone: (800) 360-9098 Outside the US and Canada: (512) 651-9770 If you cannot see the links above, copy and paste the following URL directly into your browser: http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.1d1w8ykj&x=0&y=t6m0mq
Re: [IceHorses] Thresholds
Virginia, I would say -- trust your gut. This is coming from someone who tends to analyze things to death, which can cause no end of trouble when working with horses. And reading your post -- well lets just say I think you have been snooping around in my mind when I wasn't looking! What is she feeling? why is she doing that? Should I do more, or less? Why can't I figure out the simplest things that seem to be obvious to everyone else? Last spring I found myself in complete "paralysis by analysis" mode. So I decided to just ride Ruby and do what felt right and we were comfortable with. To heck with everyone else and what I "ought" or "should" do! We had some long time but short distance rides at first, but we both stayed in our comfort zones. I didn't sweat why she was uncomfortable, whether it was fear or "lazy". If she was uncomfortable, she was uncomfortable and we waited until she relaxed. Can't say we got much accomplished that any one could measure but at least I was enjoying being with my horse again. We spent about 3 months just pretty much riding by ourselves so I didn't have to worry about any one else's needs. We went where ever it felt right -- no plans, no agendas. On the ground we also kept it very relaxed. I have come to the opinion that it is better to stop early -- while everything is just fine, thank-you. Especially if you don't feel confident in your abilities. I don't always manage that but when I see I've gone too far I back off immediately. And as time goes by I get better and better at picking up on things earlier and earlier. This past week I got to thinking about what "I" wanted to do on a nice spring day and pushed Ruby a bit too hard and she spooked for the first time in months. Just a little hop, but it was enough to wake me up --again. My guess is that you can read Orri better than you give yourself credit for. You know, in your gut, when things are OK and when they are not -- and that is the start. And if you listen to that little voice inside you will just get better and better. Don't worry about the "Thresholds" or whatever they are calling things this week. Hope something in this helps you, At least know you are not alone. Kat
Re: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
> > Mæja was just meant to be here, in the only home she's ever known! > > Here is my favorite photo of Mæja then I promise not to send any more (at > least for a while). :o) > Hi Cheryl, I love that photo, too. Makes you want to reach out and hug that beautiful furry coat! Good for you for listening to Mæja! I'm sure she appreciates it! Mary
Re: [IceHorses] Good Horsemanship
> Maybe I'm overly positive about the people on this list, but I'd bet a LOT > of us are respectful in the way we treat our horses, or at least we're > trying to be. This has nothing > specific to clicker training. That's simply good horsemanship. > Hi Karen, Of course, you're right. I was not talking about clicker training. Linda Kohanov is not a clicker trainer, just someone who is exploring the boundaries of our connection to our horses. Do you know how big your horses' space bubbles are? Have you felt them? Do you know how many bubbles your horses have? I love energy work, and love exploring it with my horses. Just something different to think about. Mary
[IceHorses] Re: Thresholds
> > Thinking back to when Orri started bolting--I'm wondering if maybe > that was his 'coping mechanism' when he was at a threshold. > I searched through the messages to find Orri's first incident of bolting. Was it the time with the tractor in the arena? To me that incident seemed like a shy and not a lack of understanding on Orri's part. In any case, it sounds like you are able to get him under control again in a short time. My friend has an Andalusian gelding with an extremely strong flight response. Her solution was to just relax and let him go until he stopped on his own (if she could do it safely) and if she could for see a potential freak-out (i.e. plastic bag blowing across the trail) she prepared herself and him by slowing down or stopping and letting him have a look. Eventually he got to the point where his flight response required shorter and shorter distances. Part of training is exploring thresholds. You may never know what triggers the bolting, but you can visualize what you will do during a bolt- relax, keep breathing, make a circle if you can do it safely, half-halts, etc. - when you are back in control, return to your exercise, but change direction and see if he understands better on his other side. > And--maybe it's not a threshold thing about the training, but a > threshold thing about putting up with my blundering around like the > novice I am. In attempting to do your owning training, you are doing a great job. We all make mistakes and we learn and move on. -Kristen
Re: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
> I actually named my wonderful Icelandic Sheepdog after Maya Angelou. > > Mæja is one of the first American Bred Icelandic Sheepdogs to earn a > Champion title, the other is her half brother Loki.They earned their > titles > the same day minutes apart. My wonderful male, Benni, is the sire of both. > Congratulations, Cheryl! You must be very proud! She's a beauty! She looks like a very happy camper! Love the tongue! Cool name, too! Mary
RE: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
>>>How many of us barge into our horses' space without asking permission? And we wonder why our horses are pushy or disrespectful! Respect is a two way street, and in my experience, you have to respect the horse first, before you can earn respect in return. Maybe I'm overly positive about the people on this list, but I'd bet a LOT of us are respectful in the way we treat our horses, or at least we're trying to be. After all there is something that has brought each of us to the list, and Judy has some guidelines for list topics. This has nothing specific to clicker training. That's simply good horsemanship. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
Hi Mary, >>>How many of us barge into our horses' space without asking permission? And we wonder why our horses are pushy or disrespectful! Respect is a two way street, and in my experience, you have to respect the horse first, before you can earn respect in return. Well said, I think when you have to really think about what you want from the horse and the steps it takes to get there it takes much more thought than if you just see the horse as disrespectful because they don't do what we want. I had Alex here quite a few years ago, to teach a clicker workshop, and found many valuable tools I could use. I have seen the clicker bring the life back to a horses eyes and interest in humans that was beyond the small bite of food or scratch that is used with clicker training. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
> We've certainly talked about > the downsides of "traditional" type Icelandic training. It's only fair to > talk about the potential pitfalls of c/t too. > As a clicker trainer, I believe in focusing on what I want, not on what I don't want. I don't find it productive to focus on the negative. I'd like to talk about the benefits of clicker training, and other training methods. The horse training community tends to be a very insulated group. They, for the most part, do not interact with or learn from the larger animal training community. There is a lot of cutting edge training going on out there in the general animal training community, which includes clicker training and other positive reinforcement methods. I'd like to give a big thank you to Linda Tellington Jones and Robyn Hood, who have been on the cutting edge of training for many years with their Tteamwork and other alternative methods of interacting with animals, and have paved the way for the rest of us. I attended a workshop a year and a half ago with Linda Kohanov, author of The Tao of Equus and Riding Between the Worlds. She's a pioneer in the field of equine assisted pschychotherapy and equine assisted learning. She's also exploring new ways of training that keep formost in mind the integrity and spirit of the horse. How many of us barge into our horses' space without asking permission? And we wonder why our horses are pushy or disrespectful! Respect is a two way street, and in my experience, you have to respect the horse first, before you can earn respect in return. We learned to use our bodies as sensory devices, to feel the energy bubble that surrounds the horse and ask permission before approaching. I discovered a new level of lightness that I didn't know existed before. It was awesome!!! How many of us really truly appreciate the phenomenal teachers we have in our backyards? We are all at different places in our journeys. It is a process that never ends. I love the Maya Angelou quote which goes something like: "when I was young I did the best that I knew how. When I knew better, I did better". That is the challenge that we all have. Mary
[IceHorses] Re: Eczema in Icelandic horses-Anneliese-Janice
"Janice McDonald" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > ...here in Florida culicoides are just unbelievable, especially in marshy areas. I have been to peoples homes in the early morning or late afternoon where I couldnt walk from my car to their front door without my entire scalp being eaten alive with them. And people here use Avon Skin So Soft, when fishing, hiking etc. Some people say it is just that it is thick oil. But I have found if you smear it on your arms, for instance, it keeps them away even from your scalp. So it must be the strong odor. I wonder if you put some SSS in your bug spray what would happen?? or on the horse's ventral area. Janice Hi, Janice, If you go to the Avon Skin So Soft website, they list many different formulations for their many different Skin So Soft products. Which one is it that you find effective against no-see-ums (culicoides)? While I find that our (old-style) Skin So Soft does help keep some bugs off me, it seems to not deter our culicoides, in fact after a while it attracts them! Maybe you are using a different formulation Skin So Soft, or your culicoides react differently. Before putting in on your horse, you might want to do a "poop pile test" [see Eidfaxi articles at < http://www.maineicelandics.org/html/se.html >], and then watch the horse's tummy to make sure he attracts fewer rather than more no-see-ums. Please let us know what you learn! yours, Barbara in Maryland
[IceHorses] Thresholds
It was suggested to me by another Parelli student on another list that Orri may have reached a threshold which could be why he's begun to act out and that maybe I should start at the beginning again. And that comment has me wondering about thresholds. Does anyone have experiences with horses and thresholds that they can share--maybe it will help me to figure things out Thinking back to when Orri started bolting--I'm wondering if maybe that was his 'coping mechanism' when he was at a threshold. He had been doing just fine, and then bang--the bolting. Now with the Parelli--we were doing just fine, then bang--big fear of the carrot stick. So--I must be awfully dense because I cannot tell when my horse is reaching these thresholds. And I'm not sure if these thresholds--if that's what they are--are because he's young, scared, mixed up, or just plain fed up. Now I need to learn how to recognize the thresholds, learn how to 'train' Orri without having him freak out, and get a bond of trust built. And--maybe it's not a threshold thing about the training, but a threshold thing about putting up with my blundering around like the novice I am. V
[IceHorses] Re: Eczema in Icelandic horses-Anneliese
"Anneliese Virro" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hello Barbara: > Thank you for that information. For some reason I thought that the > ingredients in Flygone and Repel Xp were the same. Do you think I cold make > it work better by adding some citronella oil to it? > Anneliese >> ...Repel-Xp...lacks the citronella that make FlyGone7000 so effective at >> repelling >> culicoides. [See: < http://www.maineicelandics.org/html/se.html >.] Hi, Anneliese, Yes, these bug spray formulations are a pain to keep track of, and the Repel-X family is especially confusing as they have at different formulations for their ready-to-use spray, their concentrate, their lotion, and another spray (but none list citronella). I have not tried adding citronella oil to Repel-Xp, but it might be worth a try. I did try adding citronella oil to another spray and it didn't mix in well, so one continually had to shake the bottle while spraying, to dispense any citronella at all. Not very satisfactory. But maybe citronella oil is miscible in Repel-Xp. Do let me know if you try, please. BTW, I just noted that Bronco spray -- which is cheap but does not seem to last too long -- lists 0.05% Pyrethrins, 0.1% Permethrin, 0.5% Piperonyl Butoxide, and Citronella, suggesting that the Butoxypolypropyl Glycol that is 15% of FlyGone7000 may help extend the effectiveness of its citronella. Fitting with that hypothesis, Butoxypolypropyl Glycol is listed as 5% of Repel-X (the ready-to-use) but not in Repel-Xp (the concentrate), and my impression has been that the effectiveness of Repel-X lasts longer than Repel-Xp. Hmmm... We formerly had used Repel-Xp for repelling flies on our non-Icey horses, but after observing that FlyGone7000 is substantially longer-lasting at repelling fies, we switched to FlyGone7000 for them too, and they seem happier. [They get it in AM only, and less than the SE-allergic icey, so about $25-30/year/horse.] The other imported icey, after 3 years of 2x/day FlyGone7000 was last year reduced to 1x/day, but also spraying her tummy, prophylacticly, so about $35-40/year. The super SE-allergic icey (2x/day, larger does) uses about $150/year of FlyGone7000, but it keeps him quite lesion-free, so well worth it in our estimation. However, every dusk and dawn he leaves his buddies in the field and goes to stand in the breezy barn for a couple of hours, clearly having learned when and where to get away from the worst of the culicoides, which obviously still bother him enough to make this ritual worthwhile. [Also, if we stop spraying him for a day or two, he gets loads of starting lesions, verifying that he remains highly SE-allergic.] As you evidently have many more SE iceys, I definitely can understand the importance of finding the least expensive way to get a good result. Please do keep us appraised of what you learn! The best of luck! And thanks much for telling us about your micro-climate, which certainly sounds like a delight for US-born horses, and unfortunately also for culicoides. yours, Barbara
Re: [IceHorses] UPDATE FROM ICELAND - Possible cure for eczema in Icelandic horses
>From Rachel: Hi, Anneliese, I joined this group to find out more about the Icelandic horse, but I know I will need actual experience. I still hope to ride with you, and we have been trying to work out purchasing the Icelandic herd. After the stock market drop, my daughter is hoping her mutual fund value will rebound first. No matter, we still hope to come riding with you when you can spare time away from your house, or are going to be at the farm. Jerielle is often in the Berea area anyway. Rachel from Morehead, KY
[IceHorses] Coping Mechanisms was More of Dagur
On 3/13/07, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > it is funny their coping mechanisms. > he would look way away, over his shoulder. Sometimes when I'm in the stall or in front of Orri's stall looking in at him, admiring and talking to him, he'll turn his head away and look the opposite way, almost over his shoulder. Like he's shy. Would that be a coping mechanism? Like he can't handle my direct look? Virginia
Re: [IceHorses] Peppy
On 3/12/07, Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Peppy's bridle path is growing out. It gives him quite the crown effect. > > Wanda > he is a client of the Don King studio of hair Design :) I always kept my horses bridle paths. Then I began to notice that horses that had all that blowzy gorgeous hair in their eyes had no bridle paths, that the long hair from there spilled forward. So now I gladly braid to keep it from their eyes, and fly mask in summer :) I am just a mane/hair freak :) Sunday I groomed Fox and noted his beautiful mane and tail now have streaks of just purest cotton white. I dipped his tail in a bucket of water with some oxy10 in it :) It came out blinding white! So pretty. I am gonna do his mane but will have to figure a way so it wont burn him. maybe pull it up thru a garbage bag? Fox's sire has what I would call nice normal mane and tail, but his brother, Fox's uncle "Smokin Glory" has the hair like jaspar and Gallant Boy only it is pure cellophane white rippling thick and long almost to his knees. He is HUGE, 17.2hh, looks like pegasus, just snow white, but when you wash him and he is wet you can see he is tobiano paint, the color spots pale blue roan. he is gorgeous. And still in a stall. Sigh. Been there his whole life. Wonder if when he dries up and can't be studded anymore and can't put weight on and starts colicking twice a month if the old man will give me a call to come get ol Smoke sigh. Janice
Re: [IceHorses] More of Dagur
> Interesting as when it seems that Dagur gets 'stuck' he'll look at > something off into the distanceCara just drew his attention back > to her, and they continued. > > Anyway, it's a good chance for us to visit. Dagur seems to enjoy listening... it is funny their coping mechanisms. jaspar will turn away and not look at an object that bothers him or a person he is not sure of. I think thats why it took me so long to get him over his fears and into a horse trailer. because when I woould line him up to step in he would look way away, over his shoulder. You can almost hear them thinking :) Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
>>> I don't think it's fair to criticize a method because some people don't understand how to do it properly and have created some problems. That is true of any training method, not just clicker training. I have NOT criticized the method. I have used it a little bit myself, and I haven't had any problems with it personally. We're not perfect trainers here, at least no one that I know of. We've talked about the pros and cons of Parelli, Natural Horsemanship in general. We've certainly talked about the downsides of "traditional" type Icelandic training. It's only fair to talk about the potential pitfalls of c/t too. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
>From reading, it says that when the horse clues in what the click >means, their expression lights up in understanding. So, if clicker >was used consistently and correctly wouldn't the horse begin to trust >because they've figured out the method >of communication? >V Yes, Virginia, you're right. The horse greatly appreciates a consistent "YES" signal to help them understand the sometimes strange things we ask them to do! Cherie
Re: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
On 3/13/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 3/13/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yes the horse or dog does what > > you want but can you really call it trust? > > > > > From reading, it says that when the horse clues in what the click > means, their expression lights up in understanding. So, if clicker > was used consistently and correctly wouldn't the horse begin to trust > because they've figured out the method > of communication? > V > I think that happens all the time without a click tho. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Ghost Saddle
>From Rachel: I love it-I hope it works! An American style Ghost saddle is $830, so maybe I'll wait until they start hitting the resale market! Rachel in E. KY
[IceHorses] grass is in!
whoo hooo. I got my grass seed in the ground and it looks like rain, cross your fingers! So far I have spent about 4000 bucks on grass seed in the last three years and it is just patchy and sad. I think this time tho planting the winter rye helped. Plowing it under along with poop and old hay from cleaning out their paddocks may help make the sand into soil I hope! I just feel bad they won't have that biggest pasture to play in at turn out and will have to let them out in front for at least the next two months to give the seed a fighting chance. I always planted argentine bahia before, supposed to be best pasture seed in my area, sandy soil, drought and heat tolerant, but since it went up to 250 bucks for a fifty pound bag this year I switched to Pensacola Bahia. I asked about Tifton 9, another popular pasture grass around here but the extension ofc guy assures that with my soil test I better stick with the bahias. Anybody else planting pasture grass now?? Do a rain dance! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
> When I made my observations about clicker training gone awry, several > people > pointed out that "done properly"... Yes, I understand that it's another > issue when done with full insight as to what might happen along the way, > not > only with the mugging, but with the "trying too hard" attitude that I find > equally disruptive. I'd just say if someone doesn't think they can follow > through with "the grown-ups are talking" mindset, c/t is probably not a > good > choice for them. Trouble is, can the most likely to offend owners > recognize > that shortcoming in themselves...? From what I've seen, I'd say that many > people can't. > Hi Karen, I don't think it's fair to criticize a method because some people don't understand how to do it properly and have created some problems. That is true of any training method, not just clicker training. My experience has been that clicker training is EASY to do well. It is not rocket science, and it actually helps to improve timing and mechanical skills in people who use it. It also teaches people how to chunk things down into the smallest steps, and then to chunk it down again even more, if necessary. It does take some discipline and consistency, as does any training method done well. If you spend any time on Judy's Clickryder list, you will see that the majority of clicker trainers are backyard horse owners, many of whom are new to horses. It gives them a way to stay safe and in control, even with sometimes difficult animals. I know that was the case with me and my dangerous OTTB, Skip, who I successfully rehabilitated myself, despite having no previous training experience. One of my training clients is a new horse owner who was turned off by some poorly done clicker training. She tried it with her newly purchased, teenaged school horse, and found him extremely food aggressive. He was also a fairly shut down, stiff in the body horse, who had long ago learned to protect himself from many riders. He's a really smart and very well behaved, solid citizen, who many would say didn't need clicker training. It took about 5 minutes of good clicker training to teach him not to mug and to stay out of the handler's space. He looks like a different horse now. His whole face has softened and he has a light in his eyes and an enthusiasm for life that wasn't there before. Some of the most well behaved horses that you see out in the world are actually very shut down horses. The same is true of children! Most horse owners don't want horses who think for themselves. They want horses who obey orders from headquarters, no questions asked. I want my horses to feel free to express their opinions, in a safe manner, knowing that they will not be punished for it. I want them to know that they will be listened to, and will not be forced to do anything that they are truly uncomfortable with. If they tell me that they can't do something, I believe them. Are they training me? Absolutely! We are partners on this journey, and we are all learning how to find our way and get along in a manner that enhances all of our lives. I wouldn't want it any other way! Mary
[IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> One of the foundation lessons is called "the grown-ups are talking, > please don't interrupt". > > I think that is possibly the biggest single thing I've seen people miss, and > what has turned me off the method as much as I am. I don't thing anything is wrong with the method, we have had people say the same thing about natural horsemanship, that they have seen it going wrong, it seemed rough, they have seen horses ruined. I don't think it has to do with the "system", there are always going to be people who aren't thinking too deeply about how they shape their animal's behavior, and they go on anyway, we can really only control what we do with our own animals, ultimately. I would just hate to see people discount a method that really *might* be the key in their situation (and I have seen this, there is someone on another list who refused to consider clicker training and at one point was ready to put the animal down, still not having tried everything, and now is thinking about a stud chain for a previously abused animal). People have to have a learning curve, I think we have to allow for that (like it's really in our control anyway:) ), they may muddle through for a while before they start to get a better grasp of it, it just takes time like with anything. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training
> > I have found this to be true, when my very eager mare gets over > eager, I ask her to take a step back, and click and treat her for > that, and > then we can do the other tricks, she doesn't get to chose which > behavior we are working on, that is the great thing about clicker > training, you can model any behavior you want. > Hi Kim, It sounds like you're doing a great job!!! It's important to ignore behavior we don't want and put behavior that we do want on cue. You can even develop a cue that means: you get to be creative now and will be clicked and treated for offering new behaviors. It's important to put things like that on cue, though, so they don't offer behavior without being cued! Mary
RE: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
>>> One of the foundation lessons is called "the grown-ups are talking, please don't interrupt". I think that is possibly the biggest single thing I've seen people miss, and what has turned me off the method as much as I am. I've seen too many people who get so whooped up in what their horse can do, to the point that they don't see the bratty behaviors that have developed too. It's like the adults whose kids disrupt the family reunion, church, the restaurant, whatever. All that those parents see are how adorable the kids are, not the bad behavior. Often when these human children don't get the attention that's their birthright, the behavior escalates, often negatively. I see exactly that same mistake made too often with clicker-trained horses. When I made my observations about clicker training gone awry, several people pointed out that "done properly"... Yes, I understand that it's another issue when done with full insight as to what might happen along the way, not only with the mugging, but with the "trying too hard" attitude that I find equally disruptive. I'd just say if someone doesn't think they can follow through with "the grown-ups are talking" mindset, c/t is probably not a good choice for them. Trouble is, can the most likely to offend owners recognize that shortcoming in themselves...? From what I've seen, I'd say that many people can't. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Arena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's actually a great way to > teach a pushy horse manners. But you do have to be consistent in your > training and in your food delivery. There's a lot of little details that > make a huge difference. > I have found this to be true, when my very eager mare gets over eager, I ask her to take a step back, and click and treat her for that, we do this until she gets into a calmer state of mind, and then we can do the other tricks, she doesn't get to chose which behavior we are working on, that is the great thing about clicker training, you can model any behavior you want. Sometimes (usually when I am on the other side of the fence from them) I do just ignore her attempts to do tricks for treats when I didn't ask for that, it has caused that behavior to start to die out, but she still does the behaviors when I give her the signal. Kim
RE: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
Hi Karen, >>>One thing Christine Schwartz told me that made sense, and maybe she was quoting Robyn or Linda T-J, I don't remember. Anyway, she said the idea she (they?) had found best was to see yourself as a slot machine, not a vending machine. This was Christine quoting me, quoting someone else. Just like other training methods there are different ways that people use the clicker, and some of the methods disagree. I have been told that you must always treat but I have found that I quite quickly to using variable reinforcement with food and then sometimes just a scratch and only treat every so many times, with that changing. Once again it depends on the horse. Just like every other training method some methods work better with some horses / people combinations than others. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
>>> So, if clicker was used consistently and correctly wouldn't the horse begin to trust because they've figured out the method of communication? One thing Christine Schwartz told me that made sense, and maybe she was quoting Robyn or Linda T-J, I don't remember. Anyway, she said the idea she (they?) had found best was to see yourself as a slot machine, not a vending machine. How do you react if you put a dollar in the slot machine and win even $15? You feel lucky, extraordinarily lucky. How do you feel if you lose $1 in the slot machine... Most of us would think, Oh well, that's life, not this time... and keep going about our business. Now, how do you feel when you put a dollar in the candy machine and you get a candy bar? That was your just reward. You EXPECT that candy. It's your right. How do you feel if you don't get your candy bar? Ticked off? Angry that you didn't get what you deserved? Hey, I PAID for that doggone candy bar, and I'd better get the darned thing! Christine's advice was never to treat your horse so often and so much that he EXPECTS the click and treat. Let it be a happy reward. I've seen a couple of horses that aren't always treated with their clicks who still demand the click. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 7:19 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
Hi Virginia, >>>From reading, it says that when the horse clues in what the click means, their expression lights up in understanding. So, if clicker was used consistently and correctly wouldn't the horse begin to trust because they've figured out the method of communication? Absolutely, I wasn't referring to clicker training in my comments, quite the opposite, unless you are withholding food from an animal in an effort to get them to do what you want and that is not the case with anyone I know with horses. With clicker training there is definitely participation on the part of the horse. It is such good training for the person so they develop better timing, are clear about what they want and reward small steps. Just like anything there is the balance of on the part of the handler of realizing what a powerful tool clicker training can be and using with mindfulness. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Invitation to view Raven's album - 2007 Sundowner Trailer
Raven wrote: > yes...i downsized from a sundowner 3 horse to a 2 horse. don't need a > big trailer for just two little ponies. raven <;] Me too. Actually my husband did it and I've not figured his reasoning since we have three horses. Elva
RE: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
From reading, it says that when the horse clues in what the click means, their expression lights up in understanding. So, if clicker was used consistently and correctly wouldn't the horse begin to trust because they've figured out the method of communication? I think that's without doubt. But, horses can also light up with other methods too - even with the old generic "common horse-sense" method. I've seen horses have "light bulb moments" even before Parelli or Lyons or clicker training. I'm sure horses had those moments before I was born, before Parelli or the Dorrences were born. That part doesn't have to be tied to any method, and I think it's what most of us want: an eager horse, a happy horse, however we get there. At least, that's what I want with my horses. Any method is nothing more than a means to that end. Sina has had plenty of light bulb moments using the Parelli Games. But then, she's a bright, eerily perceptive horse. I think she'd be lighting bulbs no matter what I did with her. :) It's really hard to express, especially via e-mail, but I think Tivar and I had a couple of significant "light bulb moments" just hanging out, when we realized we could trust each other. Deeply trust each other. No method involved...it was just an understanding that we arrived at by getting to know each other. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 7:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: [icehorsecolor] mars coat king
On 3/13/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yep, the best color is all of them! I'd love to have one of each! LOL V
Re: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
On 3/13/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes the horse or dog does what > you want but can you really call it trust? > >From reading, it says that when the horse clues in what the click means, their expression lights up in understanding. So, if clicker was used consistently and correctly wouldn't the horse begin to trust because they've figured out the method of communication? V
RE: [IceHorses] Prey/Predator
Hi Cherie, >>>You have to learn how to do it right. If you just grab a clicker and go, you may have mugging problems. You must teach a horse how and where to receive the reward. I guess it is just like everything else, someone who is very skilled makes things look easy and is very effective. Watching someone, less so, regardless of the method, and it may look clumsy and create results that are less than ideal. Clearly clicker training works since you can hardly train a whale using compulsion, unlike a horse or a dog, so you have to find a way to mark the behavior that you want. I think that the way some methods are used with horses and dogs work because they create a state of learned helplessness. Yes the horse or dog does what you want but can you really call it trust? Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Re: [icehorsecolor] mars coat king
Our chestnut pinto, Pila, has brightened up our herd of three, and we call her "pretty Pila"--the boys agree! Then there are mink brown Koko and blazing bay Paddy. Aren't we lucky? Yep, the best color is all of them! Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: [icehorsecolor] mars coat king
In a message dated 3/11/07 8:00:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I'm VERY picky about my color preferences. I only buy horses of the above > colors...well, except for the liver chestnut leopard App. He's very pretty > too. :) > > Karen Thomas, NC > Hey Karen, You are very funny! Although color isn't so important, as a dog breeder friend says, "I want to see a pretty face over the food bowl". Our chestnut pinto, Pila, has brightened up our herd of three, and we call her "pretty Pila"--the boys agree! Then there are mink brown Koko and blazing bay Paddy. Aren't we lucky? Kate Basler Monterey, MA
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Eczema in Icelandic horses-Anneliese [IH-4883
. For some reason I thought that the > ingredients in Flygone and Repel Xp were the same. Do you think I cold make > it work better by adding some citronella oil to it? > > Anneliese > This may sound silly, but here in Florida culicoids are just unbelievable, especially in marshy areas. I have been to peoples homes in the early morning or late afternoon where I couldnt walk from my car to their front door without my entire scalp being eaten alive with them. And people here use Avon Skin So Soft, when fishing, hiking etc. Some people say it is just that it is thick oil. But I have found if you smear it on your arms, for instance, it keeps them away even from your scalp. So it must be the strong odor. I wonder if you put some SSS in your bug spray what would happen?? or on the horse's ventral area. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Clicker Training
I think its ok for some horses/people and not for others! Some horses seem ideal for it. Some not. My jaspar does some tricks but he does it for treats not associated with a clicker. I did try and clicker train him but he just seemed dull and grudging about it for lack of a better word. And besides I didnt need it. He would do things for the treat and the reward of being praised. I like it that he went from having to be treated to stand for a few seconds at the mounting block to now, he stands for mounting ever how many times it takes and goes on a long ride, then at the end when tack is removed he EXPECTS that treat and he gets it. Whereas Stonewall is ct and if I try and extinguish the treat he trains me to start doing it again by dancing around when I am trying to mount as if he doesnt have a clue what I am wanting. Then I get a clicker and INSTANTLY gee, he remembers the trick. I dont need ct with Nasi because he will do just about anything I lead him to do, stand on a pedestal, go up stairs, pick up feet. Like Jaspar, I just give him a treat after the washrack and the session is over. I kinda feel like ct is good for working thru an issue, and maybe not good for all horses. jmo. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Clicker Training
In a message dated 3/12/07 9:30:36 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Oooh yeah! I'm not arguing that it works. What worries me more is when > the > horse not only learns to (in your example) pick up the feet, but suddenly > wants to pick up his/her feet anytime you look at them, or when you need to > bandage a leg or check a pulse. > I'm not all that experienced with clicker training, but have found that our Paddy, who came to us as the mugger of all muggers, has quickly learned, brilliant boy that he is, that he gets a treat only when he works for it--so don't go searching in my pockets handsome boy . My very simplistic paradigm is after he offers the behavior, as in backing off, and is clicked (well, tongue clucked, lazy me) and teated when he does it, it's established after many trials, then it's named and more practice. Next, when he stands still, he's treated, the behavior is established and named..and so on. I often wonder who's being trained here . Kate Basler Monterey, MA Paddy/Slettir and Pila, Icelandic horses Kokopelli, Hackney pony mule Tess and Bodhi, Irish Water Spaniels Dorje, Snowshoe cat Kenn, husband ** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
Re: [IceHorses] O/T Mandy
> This is very important information. The prospect of grandchildren is > quite exciting to me. I want grandchildren too! I already have the pony. I just need a little tiny saddle. I was just luring brian into coming down here and riding stonewall for me. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Invitation to view Raven's album - 2007 Sundowner Trailer
Congratulations Raven. It's beautiful! Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Picking the training for the horse - Svertla
its like my friend Ruth said about Fox, "Janice, how can that horse NOT be a psycho after being locked in a 10x10 dark box for six years running". and the answer is, he IS a psycho. But his psycho-ness comes out in ways that don't harm his job as my horse and mount. He is obsessed with the donkey--- think "buddy sour" a hundred times over. Only it doesnt extend to leaving him, he's ok with that. He just wants to protect him and be housed where he can stand near him in the night. Sometimes I think he would kill another horse if it tried to seriously attack the donkey. He once tried to tear thru a fence to get to him when my husband ran at the donkey with a limb to throw at the dog that was chasing the donkey. And feeding time. All horses are chow hounds, some worse than others like Tivar, he is food obsessed. but Fox has it wrapped into where it was his whole existence, his only contact with the outside world. He is always the last to be fed so he won't get beat up so bad by the others. And while he waits he contorts his mouth and grimaces and licks at the air until his mouth his lined with foam. Eyes bulging. Every feeding. My husband and I laugh about if someone comes to feed who didnt know they would think he had rabies by the foam. But he used to be at the end of a long barn and no contact with anything or anyone but twice a day must have ingrained some "HERE IT COMES" thing in him that is wa bigger than life. But hey, things could be a lot worse as far as horses go, right? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Invitation to view Raven's album - 2007 Sundowner Trailer
>>Oh gee, it almost looks exactly like mine! I have a Sundowner too. yes...i downsized from a sundowner 3 horse to a 2 horse. don't need a big trailer for just two little ponies. raven <;]
Re: [IceHorses] O/T Mandy
On 3/12/07, Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is very important information. The prospect of grandchildren is > quite exciting to me. I think my parents might have to borrow or adopt... I don't want children! Steph -- "Brutality begins where skill ends." "Correctly understood, work at the lunge line is indispensable for rider and horse from the very beginning through the highest levels." Von Niendorff
[IceHorses] Re: Prey/Predator
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It doesn't mean that they won't teach the filly about > being a horse but they usually do it in a pretty non-violent >way. Here is the reason I have to be careful, she has been in a herd for most of her two years, but when she was put out with a bunch of mares she got scared and went and got herself stuck behind a tractor at her farm of origin and they had to cut the fence to get her out. Eventually her father, who was gelded, took her on and protected her. Now she doesn't have that. She has been fine with another two year old, a small colt and a mini. She is out with an elderly mare right now, and the colt is out in the daytime. It is fine, but I know they would be happier if I incorporate her into my herd. One day she will have to be with them anyway, I will be buying my own property, so I might as well start working on it. She did meet my herd, she gave the mollys a kick and they left her alone, I think Dari likes her, he was grooming her, but Snorri chased her and she panicked. That is why I am going to take it slow and maybe introduce them in the round pen separately, over the fence, etc. I think it's most important that Dari and Snorri get used to her, the mules are usually afraid of horses and defer to them. Dari also once chased a horse filly around until she was trying to go through the electric fence. I think in the pasture the Icelandics can be a little dominating (and Dari was usually on the bottom of the ranking with other Icelandics). The only reason I haven't done it yet is the weather has been horrid, either freezing cold with ice, or gusting winds with cold rain, tons of mud. It has finally dried and has been nice, but it's supposed to snow on Friday again, blah. > The more that I study interspecies communication - when they are one-on-one, > or look at horses in large group situation, I see that animals have some > great ways of de-escalating aggression. I love watching them too. Kim
RE: [IceHorses] Me and my beast
>>> Orri doesnt bite like a little mule does he? Buck didn't like that comment. He's a little mule and he doesn't bite - never has. (Of course, he THINKS he's a big mule!) Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 7:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Me and my beast
On 3/12/07, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Orri doesnt bite like a > little mule does he? No--thank goodness! He's very well mannered in that respect. V
