Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
> I am not sure why, but we have 2 mares that do not respond to RP > stuff like other horses. Dis and Skyfaxa both turn their butt to you > in a RP I've done a bit of round pen work with Shadow, not like the John Lyons run-'em-til-they-drop method; but just some gentle send-around w/ using my body posture. He quickly learned that being next to me was a good place, and he didn't do any more rump-turning than my TWH ever did. When I "draw him in," he turns and comes right to me. But then I've never flagged the crap out of him either, like some interpret RP training to be. Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>I greatly respect anyone who > > advocates and does bridleless work! But I don't think Icelandics > are > > THAT different from other breeds, that gentle training won't work > with > > them. > > I think it may depend on the Icelandics that he's seen. If he's > seen the > ones who have been subjected to tolt training, they may be shut > down, a dull > eye, not too willing to give themselves to humans. > > > >> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn > > their rump to you as a way of submission > > I wonder where that came from; any idea? I haven't heard it, and > it doesn't > make sense to me. > > > Judy I am not sure why, but we have 2 mares that do not respond to RP stuff like other horses. Dis and Skyfaxa both turn their butt to you in a RP, and neither one had any tolt training, only halter and leading, well actually Dis had zero training it seems when we got her at age 2Both are very easy to work with though, just other ways. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:off topic?
Malin, you are a very wise wife. Why should you interfere with their companionship indeed? Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:off topic?
> > I think it may depend on the Icelandics that he's seen. If he's seen the > ones who have been subjected to tolt training, they may be shut down, a dull > eye, not too willing to give themselves to humans. -this is not subjected to tolt training (it´s kind of funny to stated that) it´s just depends on what training the horse have had ,nothing to do with gait training. thoose horses that are stressed by nature and the trainer go to fast throu the training program will "shut down" to protect themself a typicall Icelandic thing. As a very green horse they often stand for farrier just because of stress as they are shut downed and then you get problems later and people just don´t understand why as the horse was so good in the start of the training for an example. >>> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn >> their rump to you as a way of submission > I wonder where that came from; any idea? I haven't heard it, and it doesn't > make sense to me. Judy In round pen training the Icey´s is more sensetivive (ice breed)where you stand. I had a hard time with my Fafnir in the beginning as I tended to go to close and then he turned his but up instead of facing me , I had really to keep my self on the "middle spot" and he never did the "join up" thing,following me around. in everything I do in round pen with Fafnir I have to keep myself on the spot othervise I´m to close. (know 13 yo) and for my husbands Máni,that have never entered a round pen as my husband started Máni himself .My husband is all natural in horseman ship selflearned throu horses never read a book about it and never taken a clinic and I myself try to keep my mouth shut to not interfer. Máni & Ingvar has a ritual when ,Ingvar comes out with the briddle. He calls Máni a low dark voice -mánimánimáni and walk towards him ,then Máni start an circle around Ingvar often two rounds to the right and then 1 to the left and then stops in front of him a few meters away and turn his butt towards him and look at Ingvar over the left shoulder. then Ingvar put´s his hand slowly but firmly on Máni´s back (if put on the but he´s off) and walk along side him and then put the Briddle on. Me on the other hand ,Máni cirlces about 7 times around and I have to try not act as "Catch the animal" meaning I have to stand on the same spot watching Máni doin he´s circle´s and I have tried to use the same voice(much training there)...this we sometimes has to repeat before I´m allowed to briddle him. can tell that Máni was started by Ingvar the winter Máni was turning 5 yo and Máni is today 17 and he´s a five gaiter with no tolt he foxtrot but my husband offcourse is totally uninteresting what gait it is or what you name it it´s soft and the horse goes forward .. me on the other hand have tried one´s to ride Máni tolt and yes it works with a little more contact ,but why should I interfer with their companionship? Regards Malin In Iceland Rain and stormy wind´s !!
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
> >>> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn > >> their rump to you as a way of submission In the field when my horses turn the rump on other horses it usually becomes a rump fight, so I'd think turned a rump on us would be 'go away' or something similar. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:43:03 -0700, you wrote: >>> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn >> their rump to you as a way of submission > >I wonder where that came from; any idea? I haven't heard it, and it doesn't >make sense to me. Quite a lot of Icelandics will turn their rump to you, but I don't think it's a sign of submission - it's often a sign of fear. I rather think if their character was any less good than it generally is, that rump might precede a hearty kick from a horse who is afraid of being handled. In horses who are good to handle and not afraid, I've noticed they will sometimes do it when they don't want to do something (like be caught and taken away from their field mates). But submission? No. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
It's particularly noticeable in Maja who had to make an adjustment to > driving, when the person giving her direction was behind her. She caught on > quickly though. I've been seeing this with Shadow too when I'm ground-driving him--if he gets confused, sometimes he'll turn towards me, since that's always a good place to be. Robyn S
RE: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
>> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn their rump to you as a way of submission I have never seen one do it that I would perceive as submission. But, when some Icelandic's are particularly stoic or shy, I've seen them turn away from people. I don't see that as them turning their rump towards the person though, as much as see them just making an effort to appear small, or to go away. Some Icelandic's are pretty outgoing and gregarious, but some aren't. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 9/15/2007 7:54 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
I don't think I would read him like that. He may think he's doing the right thing. Who knows... maybe he was round penned and taught to always face the person. Maybe not; maybe he's just interested in what you're doing; his way of interacting. I think a lot of our horses like to face us...I think it's because of how we interact with them. We talk to our horses, and we look them in the eye when we do. It's particularly noticeable in Maja who had to make an adjustment to driving, when the person giving her direction was behind her. She caught on quickly though. Maja had minimal round pen work - mainly just when we first put a saddle on her, so she could get used to the new sensations without a rider up. I like for our horses to be curious and interested in us. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 9/15/2007 7:54 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
I think Judy is rigfht. What I see in our two is that they want to be "right" and they will offer up whatever they think I am looking for. This is great because if I can teach to this desire, they are SO easy to train. It reminds me of our autistic son who, like many people with autism, is a one-time learner. We'd better get it right the first time, because he expects every ensuing experience with a given activity to be exactly as the first time was. He sure teaches us to think about our training/teaching in advance. Tosca was apparently taught to stop dead on the circle when she's working in the round pen (an activity she doesn't particularly enjoy). She not only won't turn toward me, she won't take a step no matter what I do. When I dismounted in the center of the round pen, I immediately dropped her bit, a signal I've always used that work is over. She followed me at liberty all over the pen. That's enough connection for me. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
> >> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn > > their rump to you as a way of submission > > I wonder where that came from; any idea? I haven't heard it, and it doesn't > make sense to me. No, I'm sorry I don't remember where I heard that. Just heresay, and since someone else mentioned rump-turning, I thought I'd throw it in and see if there was any truth to it. Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
> Orri faces me, and when I walk around him he tries to keep facing me > unless I put a hand on his head to let him know to stand. I was told > this was his way of being dominant. Gat also faces me, but she will > stand as I walk around her. I don't think I would read him like that. He may think he's doing the right thing. Who knows... maybe he was round penned and taught to always face the person. Maybe not; maybe he's just interested in what you're doing; his way of interacting. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
>>I greatly respect anyone who > advocates and does bridleless work! But I don't think Icelandics are > THAT different from other breeds, that gentle training won't work with > them. I think it may depend on the Icelandics that he's seen. If he's seen the ones who have been subjected to tolt training, they may be shut down, a dull eye, not too willing to give themselves to humans. >> I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn > their rump to you as a way of submission I wonder where that came from; any idea? I haven't heard it, and it doesn't make sense to me. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/15/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 9/15/07, Robyn Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Skye, my friend Kat had an Icelandic that she sent to a round pen > > "trainer"--this woman almost ruined this Icey by insisting that he > > turn to face her. (It was eiteher her horse or a friends of hers' > > horse--can't remember). I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn > > their rump to you as a way of submission, and punishing them for it > > will completely confuse them. > > > > Orri faces me, and when I walk around him he tries to keep facing me > unless I put a hand on his head to let him know to stand. I was told > this was his way of being dominant. Gat also faces me, but she will > stand as I walk around her. Shadow faces me too, but it's because I've taught him that that is what I want him to do. Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/15/07, Robyn Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Skye, my friend Kat had an Icelandic that she sent to a round pen > "trainer"--this woman almost ruined this Icey by insisting that he > turn to face her. (It was eiteher her horse or a friends of hers' > horse--can't remember). I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn > their rump to you as a way of submission, and punishing them for it > will completely confuse them. Orri faces me, and when I walk around him he tries to keep facing me unless I put a hand on his head to let him know to stand. I was told this was his way of being dominant. Gat also faces me, but she will stand as I walk around her. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
> You're getting to be just like the rest of us, Virginia...and I say that > with pride. :) Again, there may be plenty of good in what Hempfling > preaches, but good for you for asking questions. I would love to see Hempfling get on this site and talk w/ us about his methods. I too worry about someone who makes such strong opinionated statements which many of us have agreed are false when it comes to Icelandics. Like I said before, I greatly respect anyone who advocates and does bridleless work! But I don't think Icelandics are THAT different from other breeds, that gentle training won't work with them. Skye, my friend Kat had an Icelandic that she sent to a round pen "trainer"--this woman almost ruined this Icey by insisting that he turn to face her. (It was eiteher her horse or a friends of hers' horse--can't remember). I've heard it said that Icelandics will turn their rump to you as a way of submission, and punishing them for it will completely confuse them. Anyway, this horse was terribly afraid of being "flagged" (whip w/ a plastic flag at the end) after that. Karen, no problem, I was trying to be sincere, not snippy. :) You're right, we do need to be more clear with word choices. But you know what I meant anyway, so it all works out. Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 15/09/2007, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Neither of these instructors were able to get what they felt was > correct from my horses by 'forcing' and I would prefer muddling along > in my own inexperienced way than ever allow them to 'train' for me. > V Amen... Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
>>> I couldn't resist contacting his email address on his website - I asked him since he felt his methods wouldn't work with Icelandics, what methods would. I would be surprised if I hear back. You're getting to be just like the rest of us, Virginia...and I say that with pride. :) Again, there may be plenty of good in what Hempfling preaches, but good for you for asking questions. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
A few years ago, I took my grandson to watch a Monty Roberts clinic. It was the usual self-promoting, equipment-promoting clinician gig. Roberts did some nice round pen stuff with a few horses and loaded a resistant horse and told us all how special it all was. We happened to meet an old cowboy friend of my husbands. Warren has ridden a few very nice horses, hung out around the sale barn and ridden on weekends working cattle on some of the few large cow/calf outfits left around here. His comment: "I'd like to see him do that without the round pen." Nancy - I do have a round pen and I do use it - just not to death.
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/15/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thats interestingfrom my experience I have witnessed that people, > horse professionals and trainers that have a superior attitude with > these horses, that our Icelandics do not tolerate it..they do get > stubborn,I call it a good sense of worth. My riding instructor rode Orri once to 'make' him back up according to the way he felt he should and all Orri did was rear and try to get away from him. My daughters riding instructor, a woman, once rode Gat to see if she could get a headset and she ended up going around the arena backwards and/or sideways as Gat totally resisted her. Neither of these instructors were able to get what they felt was correct from my horses by 'forcing' and I would prefer muddling along in my own inexperienced way than ever allow them to 'train' for me. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/15/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, you'd better rush out and sell Gat then, Virginia. LOL! That was my first thought when I read his comments. And after being a member of this list for about a year and reading about how everyone interacts with their ponies I knew that Hempfling couldn't have had much exposure to Icelandics. I couldn't resist contacting his email address on his website -- I asked him since he felt his methods wouldn't work with Icelandics, what methods would. I would be surprised if I hear back. V
RE: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
I'm going to take these line by line: >>>" correctly tolting horse first had to go through the High School training. Only then was the horse free enough in the forehand, only then could he carry himself sufficiently on the haunches so that he could be faultlessly and cleanly trained in tolt." Is Hempfling naïve enough to think that placing a saddle too far back and hauling on the reins gets a horse "off the forehand"?WHAT "high school"? Because if he's talking about "high school" as in "haute ecole" dressage (a la Spanish Riding School) I have NEVER seen an Icelandic who's done that. In fact, high school dressage will more likely encourage trot - counter to the goal of gaiting. I don't know what he's talking about...and I suspect he doesn't either. "I have never met a tolting horse whose rider I could proclaim innocent of any 'underhand' actions. It is only because so many use dubious training methods," Ouch. It hurts to hear that one. I suspect, as others have said, that he simply has seen the show peoplebut if that's all he's dealt with, then what right does he have to make such statements? I seriously doubt he's seen an Icelandic who gaits without the show-training influences. I wonder if he's ever heard of, or seen, an Icelandic who freely run walks or foxtrots, or saddle racks...? I guess we should give him credit for having the guts to say that. >>>"...I have not heard of anyone, least of all a professional, who could do justice to the task." (training tolt) I don't know what he meant by that...maybe that's ok. I don't think tolt should be "trained" - "honed" or "refined" might be better words. >>> He also says that Icelandics being from the character type he calls the 'Origin' is anything but easy to work with, is strong-willed and not a childs or beginners horse. Well, you'd better rush out and sell Gat then, Virginia. One more time - what defines a child's horse? What defines a child? A three-year-old on a leadline with a sidewalker, or a competent 12 year old who's fearless and been riding for 5+ years? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
--- Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 14/09/2007, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > He also says that Icelandics being from the character type he > calls > > the 'Origin' is anything but easy to work with, is strong-willed > and > > not a childs or beginners horse. Thats interestingfrom my experience I have witnessed that people, horse professionals and trainers that have a superior attitude with these horses, that our Icelandics do not tolerate it..they do get stubborn,I call it a good sense of worth. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:07:56 -0300, you wrote: > I wonder if, since his experience might be limited to the German Icelandics, >> and since they tend to be more involved in competitions It's "only" around 30% of Icelandics involved in competition in Germany - the rest belong to leisure riders. But as a sort of highprofile person himself, he probably went to someone high profile on the Icelandic scene - ie a competition rider. Saying that, most German competition horses I've met have been very laid back, certainly to handle. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/14/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But he's one horse that definitely does have more fight than flight - > and too many brains for his own good. I'll be glad when he's gelded! > Please let me know if his personality changes at all after he's gelded. I'd like to know if there's any difference. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/14/07, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I wonder if, since his experience might be limited to the German Icelandics, > and since they tend to be more involved in competitions, that he sees the > ones that are more "edgy" as noticed in Feldmann's videos. He wrote he was totally against competitions. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
> From "What Horses Reveal" by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling: > Page 185 - The Icelandc Horse: KLUNK! I have the previous books of Hempfling and also his videos, but not this one. I wonder if, since his experience might be limited to the German Icelandics, and since they tend to be more involved in competitions, that he sees the ones that are more "edgy" as noticed in Feldmann's videos. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:19:23 -0400, you wrote: >This is very interesting, Virginia. I actually think there is some >truth in some of what he says for some Icelandics. If I had read this 6 months ago, I would have had to disagree, as even though I've owned Icelandics for 20 years or so, I've not come across one that prefers fight to flight etc. But a few months ago a friend sent me a young stallion to baby sit for a while. He had been imported from Iceland last spring, and then just been started - slowly, enough to get him to the stage where you can sit on him and ride him a little bit, but not really any more - and my friend thought he needed some time away to think about things. My friend warned me he's very hard to catch, but I didn't think anything of it, having had lots of Iceland-imports who thought they were hard to catch but soon came around to my way of thinking. H. This guy has been here about 3 months now. He's very, very sex-oriented, and it's virtually impossible to work with him when he's got his brain in his balls - we're waiting for the weather to cool down, then he will be gelded even though he has beautiful conformation and movement and he comes from really, really good bloodlines (father is Keilir fra Midsitju). He will come to talk to you in the field, and enjoys a rub, anywhere on his body. But try to get a halter on him and he's off, even with many hours of patience, resorting to bribes of food, and everything else I've tried. The only way to catch him without a battle is to drive him into a stable then lay the halter over a bucket of food so he halters himself. Once you have the halter on his nose, he's a perfect gentleman. He was supposed to go out with our young colts and stallions on the moor, but he jumped a 5ft barbed wire fence, a 7 ft deep ditch and a high bank, then swam across the lake to get back home near the mares... So I kept him with our old mare who can't have foals and doesn't come into season. All was fine. One day, I needed to move some mares, so shut him into the stable to do so - he's used to being in the stable, likes it there, plenty of nice hay etc. As the mares approached, some distance away, he went completely nuts and did his best to destroy the stable, which is fortunately made of block and concrete or it would be in bits. He could see other horses, he just couldn't shag them - my usual response to this behaviour would be to ignore the horse and let him learn that making a big fuss wouldn't get him anywhere, but he had his feet through the roof, 10 ft from the ground. Literally. I went to sort things out and he did his best to barge me out the way - and I don't barge easily. He got into the yard and tried to jump the gate. When I went to catch him, he ran at me, feet flying. It was a pretty scarey moment. I drove him back into the stable, got a halter on him, and he immediately calmed right down. Phew. But he's one horse that definitely does have more fight than flight - and too many brains for his own good. I'll be glad when he's gelded! Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/14/07, Laree Shulman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have to believe from what he writes that his exposure to Icelandics > was in Iceland where he probably only knew the ones that are left in > the fields with no contact and then brought in to be trained in Tolt > as quickly as possible. He did mention Germany, plus how Icelandics are being shipped and used as pleasure horses. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 9/14/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From "What Horses Reveal" by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling: > Page 185 - The Icelandc Horse: This is very interesting, Virginia. I actually think there is some truth in some of what he says for some Icelandics. Though the Icelandics I have been exposed to are some of the nicest, easiest to work with, calmest, smartest horses I have ever known (and I've known a few), sometimes I look into their eyes and I see depths that go back long, long ago. I can almost see their viking ancestors in their eyes. I have never felt that with another breed - even the Arabians and they have an ancient history. I realize that they are allowing me to think I'm running the show but their knowledge is so much more vast than mine. I know without a doubt if I don't have respect for them and their wisdom that they will make my experience with them much less pleasant. In that way - yes - I believe they are different to train than other horses - they are not dumb followers. If you try to train them like dumb followers you will get the type of Icelandic he speaks of. I have to believe from what he writes that his exposure to Icelandics was in Iceland where he probably only knew the ones that are left in the fields with no contact and then brought in to be trained in Tolt as quickly as possible. It is understandable under those circumstances that he would have that perspective. His experience and mine in regards to Icelandics have been totally different because I don't train for tolt - just a nicely comfortable, relaxed horse - whatever gait. -- Laree
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling says:
On 14/09/2007, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He also says that Icelandics being from the character type he calls > the 'Origin' is anything but easy to work with, is strong-willed and > not a childs or beginners horse. Interesting. I would say he has been working with the type of horse I'm not intersted in buying. Wanda
[IceHorses] Hempfling says:
>From "What Horses Reveal" by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling: Page 185 - The Icelandc Horse: "correctly tolting horse first had to go through the High School training. Only then was the horse free enough in the forehand, only then could he carry himself sufficiently on the haunches so that he could be faultlessly and cleanly trained in tolt." "I have never met a tolting horse whose rider I could proclaim innocent of any 'underhand' actions. It is only because so many use dubious training methods," "...I have not heard of anyone, least of all a professional, who could do justice to the task." (training tolt) He also says that Icelandics being from the character type he calls the 'Origin' is anything but easy to work with, is strong-willed and not a childs or beginners horse. In so many words he also says they cannot be trained the same way other horses are because they are different, more in tune with life forces, primitive, etc etc. Very interesting viewpoint. Has anyone read this book? V
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling
>> http://www.hempfling.com/haestfolk_article.pdf > > you know if the book is available in english? Yes, it is; it's an interesting book. He also has some videos, etc. http://iceryder.net/hempfling.html Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Hempfling
On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 05:44:05PM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: > How do you like this article: > > http://www.hempfling.com/haestfolk_article.pdf it sounds very interesting, but the article is kind of superficial. do you know if the book is available in english? --vicka
[IceHorses] Hempfling
How do you like this article: http://www.hempfling.com/haestfolk_article.pdf Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
