Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice / Conformation / Torque
> I wonder how the torque would compare with, say, showjumpers ridden on > grass with very long grass studs? I suppose at least in an ice > competition the horses are going just in more or less straight lines, > with long, easy corners, unlike showjumpers or eventers who have to > make very tight turns (and jump, of course!). Judy, have there been > any studies done on that? Here's some information from the UK: http://www.hoofcare.com/article_pdf/HoofcarePriceHockDisp7D42B.pdf Dr. Clayton did a study: "Effects of Hock Joint Conformation on Performance and Soundness: The conformation of the hock joint varies markedly between horses. Certain types of hock conformation are thought to be more efficient for athletic activities, whereas other types of conformation may predispose to lameness. Horses with a small angle on the front of the hock (sickle hocks) are thought to have less range of motion and to be predisposed to injuries, such as bone spavin and curb, which makes them unsuitable as high-level competitors in dressage and jumping. Horses with a large hock angle (straight hocks) are not generally regarded as good prospects for athletic events and are said to be prone to thoroughpin and bog spavin. The hock joint is the most common site of lameness in the hind limb. Research in the McPhail Equine Performance Center has shown that the functions of the hock joint are to absorb concussion when the hoof hits the ground and to generate energy that propels the horse forward. " Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
As in, on a proper ice rink as used for ice hockey etc. Yes. In Iceland, it's as in frozen lakes. This particular one just announced is in Woodstock VT, which is in the Green Mountains, near the Killington ski resort. It's a very cold area, and they do skate outside on ponds and lakes there - I have pictures of outdoor skaters from a vacation we took there in 2000. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 1/14/2008 5:39 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
Good grief - again. I am learning way more than I bargained for here. Are they really on ice? As in frozen water? Yes, frozen water. I remember having that same stunned reaction, Nancy. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:43:52 -0800, you wrote: >Good grief - again. I am learning way more than I bargained for here. Are >they really on ice? As in frozen water? As in, on a proper ice rink as used for ice hockey etc. Yes. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
HI Everyone, Solheimar is proud to announce "Horses on Ice" a horse expo in Woodstock, VT on March 14, 2008 from 7-9 P.M. We will have a night to remember with professionals as well as amature riders showing what the Icelandic horse is capable of. Good grief - again. I am learning way more than I bargained for here. Are they really on ice? As in frozen water? Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
I don't think they do race, actually - it's usually just tolt classes and pace displays, at least from what I've seen on the internet/talking to friends who have been to or ridden at them. I think you misunderstood my intent. To me, zooming a horse around at a "mere" show-speed tolt would constitute "racing" in this context. Horses on any hard, slippery surface (ice) need the freedom to pick their speed and to use their body as they see fit. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 1/14/2008 5:39 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:45:56 -0500, you wrote: >Think about that for a minute. These horses RACE on ice at these barbaric >events with riders on their backs, affecting their balance, and with >weighted boots with the same amount of horrific rein contact as in the big >shows I don't think they do race, actually - it's usually just tolt classes and pace displays, at least from what I've seen on the internet/talking to friends who have been to or ridden at them. Weighted boots and rein contact is of course a whole other subject... Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:38:42 -0500, you wrote: >Really...? Can YOUR car feel pain from arthritis? Does your horse have >WHEELS that roll on ice, or bones/joints/muscles that take the brunt of >concussions? Hard and slippery surfaces are known risk factors for bone >spavin, and considering that this breed is known for that disorder, I don't >think you can say it's harmless. I don't think a few minutes on ice now and again will harm a horse - an awful lot of horses in Iceland, Scandinavia, and (I assume) cold bits of North America are ridden out in icy conditions. Not on ice all the time, but in places where they may be on frozen puddles, or cross frozen streams, or go on icy roads. I don't think that will harm the horse any more than riding him on (non-frozen) asphalt roads. Now, competing on ice as in the Horses on Ice shows? I don't know. I think if you (as in a well-balanced rider) ride a fit horse in one or two ice shows, it's not going to hurt the horse. If you ride a not-fit horse every day for a month in competitions on ice, then it's a very different matter. My personal feeling is that it's not the surface per se that will damage the horse - it's probably slightly softer than some natural surfaces like rock, or tarmac roads etc - but the torque on the joints caused by the lack of studded shoes ability to slip at all. I wonder how the torque would compare with, say, showjumpers ridden on grass with very long grass studs? I suppose at least in an ice competition the horses are going just in more or less straight lines, with long, easy corners, unlike showjumpers or eventers who have to make very tight turns (and jump, of course!). Judy, have there been any studies done on that? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 09:47:19AM -0800, Judy Ryder wrote: > I think that winter shoes with borium or studs can be okay for horses if > they *have* to go out and walk in icey conditions, altho it has been said > that barefoot feet are not necessarily slippery (it's the metal shoes). stjarni is barefoot this winter, and he's definitely finding ice more slippery than he did last year with borium on his shoes. he's a horse who is always quite picky about what he'll do and what feels right to him, and the contrasts between shod and unshod have been fascinating. (in counterpoint, he's apparently more comfortable with mud barefoot than shod either with or without the borium.) one data point, --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 11:44:24AM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: > even with studs it causes torque on the joints. true. this is why i said i'd turn stjarni out with the studded boots to see what he felt comfortable doing before i'd ever try riding with them. last year, with borium, he was pretty comfortable in icy conditions; this year, barefoot, he reacts quite differently. since he's the one with his feet on the ground, i am really trying to figure out how stuff feels to him, and defer to his good judgement. "nobody can teach riding like a horse", as cs lewis said :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
With the borium or studs (ice nails) on the shoes, the legs are unable to slide into place as they normally do. The hoof is grabbed by the ground, and torque goes up the leg. This is not the best thing for a breed that has spavin and cow hock problems. Heck, I have Icelandic's who don't have cow hocks and you won't see me racing them on ice - even if I lived in a colder area. I want my horses to stay sound and healthy for a LONG time. And, we might remind people...MOST of the bone spavin cases I've heard of in the USA have been in imported horses. I only remember hearing of one domestic horse who has bone spavin, and he is an active athlete in non-show-type sports. (There could easily be more horses affected, but I don't believe the spavin rate is nearly as high in domestics...) We've talked about why the incidence seems higher in horses from Iceland before, and I don't think any of us know why - poor nutrition in their early years, or too much rough training under saddle...or both...? A lot of sports (reining, dressage, etc.) have SOME risk of arthritis, but it's just downright inane from my perspective to do a garish type event like this with no respect for the long-term (or short-term) health of the horses - there's no possible benefit from this, other than it being a form of brutish entertainment. I have a training video made by some Icelander trainer (I can't remember which one right now) that clearly shows him starting young horses at speed on an icy lake. He had no clue how primitive that seems to people who know better. No, I won't be training Runa or any of my other horses that way - even if I am considered to ride "incorrectly." Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
> If your horses were shod with winter shoes they would be fine - a bit > like the difference between driving a car in summer tyres or with > studded winter tyres. I don't think there's any problem with riding in > icy conditions providing you are well prepared for them. I think that winter shoes with borium or studs can be okay for horses if they *have* to go out and walk in icey conditions, altho it has been said that barefoot feet are not necessarily slippery (it's the metal shoes). The problem is horses running and / or performing at speed on ice. It's not a *have* to situation, it's a choice, by the owners to chance their horses' (or potential sales horses') soundness. Who would want to buy a horse that has been run on ice? With the borium or studs (ice nails) on the shoes, the legs are unable to slide into place as they normally do. The hoof is grabbed by the ground, and torque goes up the leg. This is not the best thing for a breed that has spavin and cow hock problems. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
If your horses were shod with winter shoes they would be fine - a bit like the difference between driving a car in summer tyres or with studded winter tyres. I don't think there's any problem with riding in icy conditions providing you are well prepared for them. Think about that for a minute. These horses RACE on ice at these barbaric events with riders on their backs, affecting their balance, and with weighted boots with the same amount of horrific rein contact as in the big shows. They aren't even free to pick their speeds or to use their bodies as needed to find their own balance. When most of us drive on ice, we only drive to work or to run necessary errands and we drive with caution, adhering to the speed limit, or even driving under the limit. You don't see the Daytona 500 being run on ice... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
even with studs it causes torque on the joints. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
If your horses were shod with winter shoes they would be fine - a bit like the difference between driving a car in summer tyres or with studded winter tyres. I don't think there's any problem with riding in icy conditions providing you are well prepared for them. Really...? Can YOUR car feel pain from arthritis? Does your horse have WHEELS that roll on ice, or bones/joints/muscles that take the brunt of concussions? Hard and slippery surfaces are known risk factors for bone spavin, and considering that this breed is known for that disorder, I don't think you can say it's harmless. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 05:25:06PM +, Mic Rushen wrote: > If your horses were shod with winter shoes they would be fine - a bit > like the difference between driving a car in summer tyres or with > studded winter tyres. I don't think there's any problem with riding in > icy conditions providing you are well prepared for them. good point, although as with winter tires (or yaktrax on your feet) i'd still recommend a bit of extra caution. my barefoot trimmer has two kinds of boots that can be "studded" for winter traction. having looked at the studs, they seem like pretty straightforward hardware-store construction to me, and i may end up seeing if i can retrofit stjarni's simple boots that way. (though i'd still turn him loose in them and see what he felt comfortable doing without me on his back before i tried riding with them) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
Judy, I've seen this on the list before and don't understand. It suggests that there are riders who DO support riding horses on ice. Is that true? Gayle and I accidently rode horses on ice last year and swear we will never never NEVER go out with those conditions again. The snow had melted and then frozen into a glaze, but we were about a mile from the barn before we realized how slick it was. Her horse was so afraid he was trembling. Hunter was so tense he was board stiff. We were glad to get to the back with no falls. Seems pretty primitive doesn't it, but yes, Nancy, it's true. I just saw this posted on another list: >>>HI Everyone, Solheimar is proud to announce "Horses on Ice" a horse expo >>>in Woodstock, VT on March 14, 2008 from 7-9 P.M. We will have a night to >>>remember with professionals as well as amature riders showing what the >>>Icelandic horse is capable of. The professional riders include Sigrun >>>Brynjarsdottir, Jason Brickner, Gudmar Petursson, Laura Benson, Alexandra >>>Pregizter. Further we will have some really good youth riders such as >>>Caeli Cavanough and Megan Malloy. The demos will incude fire, pace, >>>acrobats, drill teams and the theme is Good vs. Evil. Come see the >>>professionals battle it out in the oldest of all tales Good Vs. Evil. >>>Further, there will be a tolt competition where both professionals and >>>amature riders compete amongs themselves. Tickets are $25 with $2 of >>>each ticket going to the Hoofed Animal Sanctuary, which rescues horses in >>>need. It's REALLY ironic that the proceeds are to go to an animal rescue org - all of $2 per ticket, generous folks that they are. Almost as ironic as the "theme", "Good versus Evil"... Gudmar Peturson is the trainer that the USIHC always selects to represent the breed at the major expos too so this is no more than one degree from "mainstream" for our offical US breed organization. It makes me sick. I hope no one attends. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 08:56:19AM -0800, Judy Ryder wrote: > Why do we not support riding horses on ice? it's hard on the horses' bodies and dangerous to both rider and horse. --vicka (whose riding ring has been a skating rink for several weeks now)
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:18:59 -0800, you wrote: >Gayle and I accidently rode horses on ice last year and swear we will never >never NEVER go out with those conditions again. If your horses were shod with winter shoes they would be fine - a bit like the difference between driving a car in summer tyres or with studded winter tyres. I don't think there's any problem with riding in icy conditions providing you are well prepared for them. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
Judy, I've seen this on the list before and don't understand. It suggests that there are riders who DO support riding horses on ice. Is that true? Gayle and I accidently rode horses on ice last year and swear we will never never NEVER go out with those conditions again. The snow had melted and then frozen into a glaze, but we were about a mile from the barn before we realized how slick it was. Her horse was so afraid he was trembling. Hunter was so tense he was board stiff. We were glad to get to the back with no falls. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
> > They are basically running around on the ice, > putting on a "show". Ice nails are used in their > shoes to stop them from slipping on the ice, which > may not be so bad > if the horses are walking on ice, but with running, > the ice nails grab the > ice and send a torque up the leg. This can cause > hock damage and other > problems, not so great for a breed that has a > tendency towards spavin. > > That sounds cruel. Happy Southwestern Trails It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
>> This may be a dumb question, but what do the horses > do on the ice. I never heard of it. Lorraine They are basically running around on the ice, putting on a "show". Ice nails are used in their shoes to stop them from slipping on the ice, which may not be so bad if the horses are walking on ice, but with running, the ice nails grab the ice and send a torque up the leg. This can cause hock damage and other problems, not so great for a breed that has a tendency towards spavin. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
> > > > > > We - each and every one of us - can make a > difference! > > Thanks, > > Anneliese > > > This may be a dumb question, but what do the horses do on the ice. I never heard of it. Lorraine Happy Southwestern Trails Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On 4/8/07 4:05 PM, "Raven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> contacted Bernie Willis about the carnival on ice thing and > forwarded Raven's collection of data to him. He took that to Anne > Ellwell and it seems that even she intends to do something about it > > SUPER > > Raven I have a suggestion to all of you who will attend Equine Affaire in Columbus, Ohio this weekend: please print out Ravens grand opus about IceCapades and Dick Garden, sent to the list on February 28 and take it with you to the event. Then talk to it about anyone Icelandic you happen to spot. Talk to Gudmar or anyone else there with Icelandics. Please do. Show some courage to stand up for our horses. I can't go to Columbis this year (in case you want to tell me "go do it yourself") because we are truly in the middle of house constructions and decisions are needed literally by the minute. Or, if you already deleted it without forwarding to anyone (bad!) please Raven, send it to the list again so people can act on it. We - each and every one of us - can make a difference! Thanks, Anneliese
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
>>contacted Bernie Willis about the carnival on ice thing and forwarded Raven's collection of data to him. He took that to Anne Ellwell and it seems that even she intends to do something about it SUPER Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn, the American Ice Pony Dixie Chic, the Barn Goddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
> I contacted Bernie Willis about the carnival on ice thing and forwarded > Raven's collection of data to him. He took that to Anne Ellwell and it > seems > that even she intends to do something about it. > > I think that between this list and other lists, etc. we should be able to > stop it. Great, and thanks Anneliese! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
--- Anneliese Virro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 4/4/07 12:36 AM, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No Horses on > Ice". > >> > >> HA! That was funny..! Raven > > > > > > I'm serious! > > > > I think the organization should take a stand if they care about > the breed. > > > > > > Judy > > I contacted Bernie Willis about the carnival on ice thing and > forwarded > Raven's collection of data to him. He took that to Anne Ellwell and > it seems > that even she intends to do something about it. > > I haven't had time to pursue the matter (building a house is VERY > time > consuming, even if all you do is clean up after the diverse crews > and make > decisions) but I will probably talk to Gudmar about it when I get a > minute. > > I think that between this list and other lists, etc. we should be > able to > stop it. > > Anneliese This is exactly what I have been talking about...working together instead of just making assumptions about the Congress...this is nice. S. Lee
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
On 4/4/07 12:36 AM, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No Horses on Ice". >> >> HA! That was funny..! Raven > > > I'm serious! > > I think the organization should take a stand if they care about the breed. > > > Judy I contacted Bernie Willis about the carnival on ice thing and forwarded Raven's collection of data to him. He took that to Anne Ellwell and it seems that even she intends to do something about it. I haven't had time to pursue the matter (building a house is VERY time consuming, even if all you do is clean up after the diverse crews and make decisions) but I will probably talk to Gudmar about it when I get a minute. I think that between this list and other lists, etc. we should be able to stop it. Anneliese
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
>>Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No Horses on Ice". >> HA! That was funny..! Raven >>I'm serious! I think the organization should take a stand if they care about the breed. judy...i'm the choir...remember! i know you are serious, so am i. but...i just do not see the USIHC banning ice tolts. <;\ raven
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
>>>Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No Horses on Ice". > > HA! That was funny..! Raven I'm serious! I think the organization should take a stand if they care about the breed. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice-question
> >>Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No > Horses on Ice". > > HA! That was funny..! Raven > Ok. I don't get it. Do the horses use iceskates? How do horses perform on ice. Never heard of it. By the way, I think the show is coming to Pheonix. My area. Lorraine Happy Southwestern Trails Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
Re: [IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
>>Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No Horses on Ice". HA! That was funny..! Raven
[IceHorses] No Horses on Ice
Please feel free to use the attached image on your website, to support "No Horses on Ice" in our country. Perhaps someone could get the USIHC to support "No Horses on Ice". Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com <>
