[IceHorses] Re: Fat circus ponies....versus muscled rears?

2008-07-05 Thread Stan Hirson, Sarah Jones

  The dressage instructor in Stan's videos mentioned something about
one of the Icelandic
  horses that we've talked about on the list before - how some of
the show-style-ridden
  horses seem to have overly developed shoulders and chests, and
underdeveloped rear-ends.
  Did anyone else notice that?

 Yes I have.

 I'm not sure if I have the terminology correct, but it's something
 I've always referred to as panty-waist.


Trish, the dressage instructor, called it a dinky-butt. Notice that
the saddle maker, in the video of the first Icelandic, admired his
rear-end and said it was like a 17h draft horse.  Maybe an
exaggeration, but that is where the engine is.

Stan
http://lifewithhorses.com




Re: [IceHorses] Re: Fat circus ponies....versus muscled rears?

2008-07-05 Thread Karen Thomas
 Trish, the dressage instructor, called it a dinky-butt.


Dinky-butt - that's what I was trying to remember.  Now...I hope whoever
owns the dinky-butt horse remembers that 1) Trish said it could be improved,
and isn't what I'd call a permanent flaw - so nothing to be ashamed of...and
2) that I just submitted a picture of one of MY favorite horses of all times
who happens to have some serious conformation issues.  I don't mean to
degrade anyone's horse...especially not someone who is actively trying to
learn and is working with a horse they love.  There's absolutely NOTHING
wrong with that scenario, as long as she continues to try to learn.   Good
for her!

BTW, I own two Icelandics that do have smallish butts, but they are small
horses overall.  If someone said they have dinky butts, I'd have to
agree...but, I think they are proportionally nice horses (one is even what
I'd call very correct), and I would never allow big riders on them.  They
just happen to fall into my viva la difference range of acceptable sizes,
just at the small end of the acceptable range.  When I was reading about the
Banker horses recently, the term I read from one of the professors studying
the Bankers (Dr. Sponenburg?) kept referring to the bell curve of Spanish
characteristics in the various Colonial Spanish Mustangs - in other words,
we can expect some range/diversity of traits in any breed.  Doesn't mean
we'd want to breed FOR the extremes, but not that we should worry about not
breeding those horses either.


 Notice that the saddle maker, in the video of the first Icelandic,
 admired his rear-end and said it was like a 17h draft horse.  Maybe an
 exaggeration, but that is where the engine is.

Exactly, and experienced horse people know that.  :)


Karen Thomas, NC



Re: [IceHorses] Re: Fat circus ponies....versus muscled rears?

2008-07-05 Thread Judy Ryder

 I'm not sure if I have the terminology correct, but it's something
 I've always referred to as panty-waist.

 Trish, the dressage instructor, called it a dinky-butt. Notice that
 the saddle maker, in the video of the first Icelandic, admired his
 rear-end and said it was like a 17h draft horse.  Maybe an
 exaggeration, but that is where the engine is.

Yes, the engine is always in the rear.  When the horse is in ventroflexion 
with the head pulled up, it sort of stops the flow of the power from the 
hindquarters and the horse ends up pulling with the front end.

The show horses, and any other horse that is ridden in that style, will have 
hypertrophy of the shoulder muscles, and a weak hindquarters.

We probably do not want to learn from trainers who ride the horse's face.

Here's an excerpt from Horse Breeding and Management about hypertrophy.

1.  Hypertrophy due to poor overall balance or lack of self-carriage.  This 
is a problem of green and badly-trained horses.  Muscles typically affected 
are the serrati of both the neck and body and the pectorals, especially the 
flat portions of the muscle that lie between the arms and that extend 
directly from the arms to the sternum just in front of the girth.  The 
muscles will be too firm in tone and bulging.

Rigidity in the serrati and pectoral muscles is the primary cause of binding 
up or restriction of movement in the shoulder.

Dressage was invented in order to produce self-carriage and loose, mobile 
shoulders; its exercises, when correctly executed, have the effect of 
inducing the horse to cease to carry itself on the forehand or to stretch 
the muscles of the neck, back, and shoulders (d la Gueriniere, 1751).

2.  Hypertrophy due to incorrect dressage.  Over-developments and muscular 
rigidities of the latissimus and rhomboideus muscles are especially 
prevalent among horses engaged in the new, competitive form of dressage. 
The cure for these problems is to stop pushing the horse onto the forehand 
during extensions, stop permitting or encouraging it to hollow its back and 
flick or hyper extend the forelimb, stop hanging on its mouth and go back 
to insisting that back and neck be swinging and elastic and that the fore 
and hind strides be of equal size during all phases of the trot (Hebermann, 
1984).

3.  Hypertrophy due to the application of weights to the forelimbs.  There 
is almost no muscular tissue in the forelimb of the horse below the carpus 
or knee.  The bulk of muscles that control the swing of the forelimbs is 
located above the elbow.

The majority of trainers who use weights such as heavy shoes or weighted 
boots on horses believe that their purpose is to product motion.  In fact, 
weights were originally used to change the timing of the footfalls which 
they do with an effect similar to that produced by adding weights to 
cogwheels or camshafts.  The major side-effect of weights is to 
exponentially increase the amount of lateral instability (wobble) in the 
forelimb of the horse.  When the weights are over 12 oz., forced 
hyperextension of the shoulder joint also occurs.

Under normal circumstances, lateral instability of the limb is controlled 
primarily by the pectoral muscles while movements of the scapulohumeral 
joint are controlled by the infraspinatus, supraspinatus, and subscapularis 
muscles.

The the horse, the arm is attached to the shoulder blade by no ligaments at 
all, except by the paper-thin joint-capsule.  Therefore, under the influence 
of weights, all muscles spanning the shoulder joint hypertrophy, pushing the 
scapulas laterally and producing a horse with an abnormally wide chest.

Heavy weights also induce hypertrophy of the brachiocephaicus and trapezius 
muscles from which an abnormally rigid neck carriage results (Bennett, 
1984).

Since the use of weights is entirely directed to forcing the horse to 
produce artificial or fantasy gaits often resulting in joint injuries, 
self-defensive muscular hypertrophy and rigidity in the horse, their use 
cannot be justified.

___

I believe we have all three of the above types of hypertrophy going on with 
the icelandic-style trainers.

Here's a couple of old messages where we talked about these things:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/message/24524

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/message/30857


Judy
http://iceryder.net
http://clickryder.com