RE: [IceHorses] Resistance
> there is always a reason for resistance - it is just > a matter of finding it. Thanks, Robyn, for this input. I'm so happy that we, as a group, are of the mind to listen to the horse and not push, push, push a request, and overlook a behavior. >>>I believe that horses are incredibly generous<<< I do, too, and I think if we don't look for the reason for a behavior / resistance, we can still, because of the way the horse is, dull down the horse to ignore the problem. Doesn't make the problem go away.
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> they are sometimes resistant because they were having fun and dont want to stop. Like a child wanting to play with his friends getting furious cause you wont let him play in the street.<< And that is what I think Whisper's resistance is all about. She wants things her way and on her terms. She doesn't really have any respect, not even for the lead mare. She will move off hay, but crooks her tail up and shakes her head, moving off, but refusing to give respect. The resistance she gives me is like that. She says "what you want me to do doesn't happen to be on the list of things I want to do today, sorry." Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Disclaimer CAUTION: DO NOT DRIVE WITH HOT COFFEE IN YOUR LAP Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
What do you think? You're quite right. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 08:52:38PM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: > well why does curly ray take bites out of my qumquat tree?! i presume he thinks it tastes nice. that said, i agree there are aggressive-behaving horses. if stjarni treated me the way he treats rio (the former king of the paddock, before my ponykins put him in place) we would not be friends at all :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
> It could be anything, but I think that resistance shows that there is > something wrong somewhere, and we should try to find out what the problem is. > > What do you think? bearing in mind that sometimes there is resistance and it has to be worked thru because its goofy. like fox, he has a weird sulk that stems from him being sorta dumber than most horses and him wondering when something hurts if you are doing it on purpose. he stands there sulking, you can watch his expression change to a big SULK while he considers doing something BAD while you say "come on come on" in a real sweet high pitched voice while he stands there all stiff and bowed up saying in effect "NO you said I could go into the water" and i am saying "no, come on come on" in a high pitched voice while he is sinking into the black goo quicksand like a 1300 pound block of concrete. so yes he is resistant. but you have to get them to trust you a little bit so they can learn you arent always gonna cause them pain and they have to do what you tell them to do... they are sometimes resistant because they were having fun and dont want to stop. Like a child wanting to play with his friends getting furious cause you wont let him play in the street. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
>> So, if a horse shows resistance when he's supposed to >> be working / learning, what should we think about >> that? > > maybe he is confused, getting mixed messages. frustrated. That could be! Maybe we can generalize a little and say that a horse's resistance may be an indication that something is wrong. For instance, if he doesn't give to the bit for some reason, maybe it's a teeth problem; maybe it's a bit problem; maybe it's too much pressure from the rider's hand; or maybe it's a problem with his heel! Maybe if he doesn't want to turn right as easily as he turns left, it could be a teeth problem, a saddle problem, etc. It could be anything, but I think that resistance shows that there is something wrong somewhere, and we should try to find out what the problem is. What do you think? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
well why does curly ray take bites out of my qumquat tree?! He's not playing! He is trying to make me mad! he only does it when i come out onto the porch! maybe vengeful is a better word. horses can be vengeful. They are! Look at tivar, if i let another horse pass us he flattens his ears, sulks, starts plodding along all depressed, then sees an opening, goes to pass and take the lead, I say no, uhuh, and gee all of a sudden whack my knee hits a tree. then it starts happening every time he tries to pass and I say no, gee all of a sudden whack my knee hits a tree, but hmm, if he is first in line for two hours in and out trees even at a fast trot, even at a canter, hairpin turns, my knee NEVER hits a tree. what is that, playfulness?? I dnt think sooo i think it is bwaaha revenge of the icelandic grump.ok, believe me, i appreciate his not launching me, bolting or biting so I aint complaining. But I just see they can have a leetle mean streak. and I think horses bite and kick to be mean sometimes also. not just out of pain. I have seen some mean vengeful horses. In fact I have seen a couple i dont believe had any redeeming value whatsoever. I saw one kick his owner like in a bugs bunny cartoon and sent him flying thru the air and land with his head in a fence and all the owner was doing was bending over to pick something up and that horse had never been mistreated a day in his life and in fact, had often tried to kick at my truck when i drove by, kicked at jaspar on the trail and narrowly missed my ankle, reached and bit my leg when the owner rode up and whoaed to stand next to me. now what was that. the horse wasnt in pain, had lived a charmed life, never been mistreated a day. all i can figure is they named him macho and i have a secret belief that if you name a horse a name like maverick, bucky, macho, stuff like that, it can cause a mean horse. the worse horse accident i ever witnessed, brain damaging the rider, was on a horse named diablo but i regress. I have seen mean horses with no redeeming value. just as there are evil worthless humans like ted bundy there are bad horses. sociopaths. jmo!! 99.9% are mistreated, abused, in pain, and some, like my Tivar, are hilariously grumpy, to me, but he has has been mean to others, out of pain, and they deserve and need some compassion and some slack but there is that 1% that are purely evil. I just believe that!! My friend marilyn bought a hanoverian that was sold with a disclosure that it had bucked off every person who'd ever been on it. her daughter was a gifted rider and could stay on any horse. that horse not only launched her daughter about twenty times, nearly killing her, but when she hit the ground he would go for her and try to stomp her like a PBR bull, and while i was there, just in the pasture it was constantly running her other horses and cornering them, trying to kick them down. he never rested, just constantly in a vilent frenzied manner running all her horses down to beat them up. I just said wow, cut your losses he's brain damaged or something! She sold him to a rodeo circuit as a bronc and guess what! he never bucked again. I dont know what became of him! I think most really bad horses can be healed with love, but there is that 1%, they exist. there are jeffrey dahmer horses. Janice Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
> > So, if a horse shows resistance when he's supposed to > be working / learning, what should we think about > that? maybe he is confused, getting mixed messages. frustrated. My Fox sulks when he feels you are being mean. and wont do what you ask. just stands firm and his eyes get a sort of offended look. I have to let him know by petting him that i am not meaning to be offensive. he is my horse most resistant, and most in tune with pressure. he perceives even the least thing as pressure. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Resistance
In fact, I pretty much think he'd rather I were not mad at him - ever. I think so too. If they are playing, that's in the spirit of fun, not to make us mad. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
Oh Karen, my husband doesn't have to try. It comes naturally to him. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Resistance
I am absolutely convinced that horses do not "try" to do stuff to make us mad. Nancy No, that's what husbands are for. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
Absolutely! It's really funny to watch the herd dynamics. Tosca is in love with a very elderly black Arab mare and stands with her at the corner where their two pastures join. They're both black and both mares, other than that they're very different. I'm not sure why Tosca takes such comfort from her. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:21:56PM -0800, Judy Ryder wrote: > So, if a horse shoes resistance when he's supposed to > be working / learning, what should we think about > that? how to make it easier, less scary, and more fun for the horse. imho... --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:16:56PM -0800, Nancy Sturm wrote: > Ah yes, Vicka, but you're talking about games, which I suspect horses love. *nod* exactly -- i think horses sometimes find it funny to do things that frustrate or annoy humans or other horses. i'm pretty sure that when stjarni steps on my feet he's merely being clumsy -- but i'm also quite certain he thinks it's lots of fun to upend my grooming box in search of treats, which really i'd rather he didn't do. (i haven't kept treats in there in ages, but he still hopes, or perhaps just enjoys my grumbling and putting stuff back in order :) > In fact, I pretty much think he'd rather I were not mad at him - ever. i think the same is true of stjarni and me. but i'm pretty sure he LIKES me. he definitely doesn't mind annoying his paddockmates though; he is very BOSSY with them and doesn't mind if they mind. and i've seen many a pony (including miss molly, the mix who was my introduction to iceys) get the same kind of BOSSY with riders (esp. kids) that they didn't like or respect. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
I > started to write that no one had ever trained a buffalo to do dressage, but > I'm sure someone somewhere has a story about a third level buffalo that went > to the 200 Olympics and represented the nation of South Dakota or something. HAHAHA - I'd pay good money to see that !! -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
Well, Judy, in a perfect world, I would assume I hadn't done a good job of communicating with the horse. Since many of our horses have been handled before we got them, sometimes it's a result of a previous owner setting us up, but even with a horse with "issues" I should in time be able to show him what I'm asking for and most "normal" horses will want to produce it. A friend and I were having this conversation one day not long ago about the basically tractable nature of horses - otherwise, why ever would man have even considered the possibility that they could be partnered with. I started to write that no one had ever trained a buffalo to do dressage, but I'm sure someone somewhere has a story about a third level buffalo that went to the 200 Olympics and represented the nation of South Dakota or something. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
> I'm probably conducting an exercise in semantics > here. I do think my horse > might do something to make me mad - step on my foot, > give me a shove with > his sweaty head, even spill his pan of gruel all > over instead of eating it. > But I don't think he does any of those things with > the express intent of > making me mad. > > In fact, I pretty much think he'd rather I were not > mad at him - ever. I think I agree with that. Good separation of circumstances. I think in a training situation, that a horse generally, for the most part, wants to get along, wants to get it right, after all, it's easier on him if he does! So, if a horse shoes resistance when he's supposed to be working / learning, what should we think about that? Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
Ah yes, Vicka, but you're talking about games, which I suspect horses love. Even the youngster coming up and bumping Janice is probably thinks he's playing a funny game. I'm probably conducting an exercise in semantics here. I do think my horse might do something to make me mad - step on my foot, give me a shove with his sweaty head, even spill his pan of gruel all over instead of eating it. But I don't think he does any of those things with the express intent of making me mad. In fact, I pretty much think he'd rather I were not mad at him - ever. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
> hm, why not? i have certainly seen horses tease one another in the > pasture, playing halter tag, ragging on the horse shut in the run-in, > and so on... I smacked my donkey for biting my qumquat tree and now everytime he is out in that area and sees me sit down in the porch swing he saunters over and deliberately takes a bite out of it, then flattens his ears and saunters off like "there's your qumquat right THERE" and then one day i smacked nasi on the head with a rolled up newspaper cause he tried to bite me and he waited til I walked way ahead, waitind til he knew I was so far ahead he would be able to gallop, and he took off galloping and deliberately bonked me in the shoulder so I went sprawling. that was when he was a yearling and would often, almost daily, enjoy aggravating me! I would read all these things on here about how sweet iceys are and think i had a changeling. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 12:45:42PM -0800, Nancy Sturm wrote: > I am absolutely convinced that horses do not "try" to do stuff to make us > mad. hm, why not? i have certainly seen horses tease one another in the pasture, playing halter tag, ragging on the horse shut in the run-in, and so on... --vicka (whose horse is nice as pie to people, but a real tyrant sometimes to his paddockmates)
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
On 11/27/07, Nancy Sturm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am absolutely convinced that horses do not "try" to do stuff to make us > mad. i donnt know about THAT :) Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
I am absolutely convinced that horses do not "try" to do stuff to make us mad. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
>I have thought about what we consider resistance and I wonder if it isn't > the basic nature of horses and ponies to resist pressure. > > Yrsa is young and has had minimal training. If I push on her side to move > her over in the barn, her first and instinctive reaction is to push back. Yes, I think that is a natural response to push back. But what of the trained horse that no longer wants to give to pressure? Were they ever really *taught* to give to pressure? or just forced (without learning)? Does the resistance mean that something is wrong? Are they trying to tell us something? Or are they being resistant *just because*; maybe to purposely make us mad? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Resistance
I have thought about what we consider resistance and I wonder if it isn't the basic nature of horses and ponies to resist pressure. Yrsa is young and has had minimal training. If I push on her side to move her over in the barn, her first and instinctive reaction is to push back. I can make pointy fingers and say "over" and she will move willingly, but her very first reaction will be not to move away from pressure, but to move into it. When I first began to drive and ride Tosca, if I closed a hand on a rein, instead of moving toward the tension on the rein, she would instinctively move against it. I would label that resistance, but Tosca might say it was her nature to push against something. "Fxing" it, in my experience, comes from rewarding Yrsa for moving away from my fingers on her side my releasing the pressure and rewarding the young horse in training by releasing tension on the rein when she yields. If I continue to apply pressure, I think their inclination is to continue to push. I like verbal praise and a pat on the neck too. "Good girl" Pat. Pat. Nancy
[IceHorses] Resistance
Where does resistance come from? Examples of resistance? How do you "fix" it? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
