Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
wow.sellability. hmm. would be subject to trend and buyer whim and not quantifiable but again. a nebulous concept on which to judge quality unless it had something to do with swimming icy fjords etc if you wonder why I seem blunt maybe. icant find the comma on my cell phone which I am posting from since my boss banished us from the internet the witch janice
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
I think phil > should come back I am still dazzled by an actual man being able to > spell or maybe robyn that cheater edits him! > janice > Robyn is in Wyoming doing a clinic. It is all Phil. ann
RE: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Janice McDonald >I think phil should come back I am still dazzled by an actual man being >able to spell or maybe robyn that cheater edits him! janice It is a mechanical thing; I know how to turn on spell-check Phil
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:13:13 -0500, you wrote: >is that a joke or is sellability a criteria of judging? Not a joke - not sure it's actually stated that it's a criteria, but I guess having sellability as part of your breed aim isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
is that a joke or is sellability a criteria of judging? I think phil should come back I am still dazzled by an actual man being able to spell or maybe robyn that cheater edits him! janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
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On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:04:50 -0500, you wrote: >The way it's evaluated the breed obviously values the long flowy mane >and tail with heavy forelock moreso than the puffy bushy mane and tail >why?? Appearance only? A horse with lots of mane and tail and feather is easier to sell. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
I have seen horses with tendons that swell after exertion and they have to be wrapped and have ice packs. Its a chronic thing after a while and the horse has to be put out to pasture. I dont think of it at all as a little minor thing! So I want to know, IS it a minor thing?? Or is it what other horses get when they develop tendons that swell on exertion and make them lame. IS it a precursor to that? I mean for gosh sakes surely there is a veterinary explanation or definition of wet tendons. And to me see, this is part of the overall problem. Trying to get around the culture barrier in this breed in order to find anything out. And if you ask questions you get bullied and ran out on a rail. Why can't someone just answer a dang question and then if we americans dont know what the heck it means maybe someone international who knows both cultures can explain. I know intellectually that there has to be a medical explanation of "wet tendons" and someone has to know it and its just maddening that no one will explain it. Also, why doesnt someone make a list of all the criteria the horses are evaluated by with an explanation to the side of why that particular aspect is important. For instance. Fetlock hair. Its given some merit. Why? Why is it important to the breed? Seems Feif or somebody could do that and it would be very interesting to all, why some things that seem silly are not. Like mane and tail. The way it's evaluated the breed obviously values the long flowy mane and tail with heavy forelock moreso than the puffy bushy mane and tail why?? Appearance only? Does it have something to do with not catching on weeds, swimming in icy fjords, speedracking through volcanic ash... surely, logically, these points of evaluation are based on how it furthers the breed, or hurts it, and to do that, first of all you have to know what the heck it is, define it. Define wet tendons, define the acceptable length of fetlock hair or mane and tail, explain why etc. Its like someone knows, and it would nice if everyone knew. I could propose it as an article for the quarterly but someone else would have to write it. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
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Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > what are wet tendons. its scarey that no one knows the official > answer to this simple question > janice > Janice, Are you looking for a lay-person's explanation / understanding of the term, or something more schlolarly? I've always thought of "wet tendons" as tendons that don't feel firm and tight -- but feel more like they have some fluid around them. -- Renee M. in Michigan P.S. I thought your daughter was gorgeous! And you're right, she gets away with that haircut very well!
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
what are wet tendons. its scarey that no one knows the official answer to this simple question janice
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>>> It seems to me that the most logical way for you to be dissuaded from >>> your beliefs of what happens at an Evaluation, or to have the >>> satisfaction of proving that you were right all along, would be to >>> attend an evaluation. No need to take a horse. Spectators can get close >>> to the action and attend the seminars. Why should every single interested individual have to assume the "burden of proof" when the orgs could answer a lot of basic questions for ALL newbies in a single document or video? Documents can be posted on the websites and dispersed to the masses for no additional cost. Videos are pretty cheap to make in the greater scheme of things, and have been for many years - especially when someone like Stan volunteers his time and talents - and can be posted to the websites, or sold for a nominal fee. There's no reason for anyone to have to "go" anywhere to get such basic information in this day and age. The only reason to force people to "go" as far as I can see is to enforce the elitist gap between those who have the time and means to travel about this big old continent of ours...versus those won't don't have the means. Karen Thomas, NC
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>>> I meant to add one other thing - while I am not that convinced about the >>> effectiveness of Icelandic horse evaluations, I have seen no evidence >>> whatsoever of judges being drunk or hungover while judging, or of judges >>> showing any bias in favour of their host's horses. It occurs to me that each national organizations probably can do a lot about setting the tone in what they allow, or in what they conveniently ignore. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
phil. what are wet tendons. janice
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
>>>We have one per year here if we're lucky. Some years there's none if it's >>>not economically viable due to low numbers of horses to be judged (ie >>>less than 10). I've been to a few in the Netherlands, and the occasional >>>WC or Landsmot one, but frankly IMO attending a breeding show is about as >>>exciting as watching paint dry unless you happen to have a horse there >>>or are otherwise involved (and I'm speaking as a former Breeding >>>Leader!). ... Breeding seminars are a bit of a different thing, and I've >>>been to a few more of those, but again, not that many, simply because of >>>costs and the fact that so many of them held in Europe or Iceland are, >>>not surprisingly, not held in English, and while I can get by in >>>Icelandic it's bloody hard work spending an entire weekend trying to >>>learn things at a seminar in a foreign language. Thanks, Mic. If the logistics (time, money, language) are hard for you to get to many or to get a lot out of them, imagine how difficult they are in a country the geographical size of the USA where we probably have a similar number of evaluations and horses involved. It's just not feasible to try to bully everyone with a interest in the future of the breed into making this sort of travel happen...and in the meantime, when we see SO many things wrong with the process, WHY would we want to move mountains to get to a questionable event? I started out with an interest, but by the time there was an evaluation anywhere close to me, I'd already seen some great results from my own breeding programand I saw way too many flaws in the system to be persuaded to change my schedule to go. >>> In my opinion the shoeing and boots etc are not the problem at breeding >>> shows, but the system as a whole desperately needs a rethink. Sigh. What's wrong with us, Mic?We're not the women we once were, I'm afraid. I think I agreed with about everything you said in that last post! ;) Karen Thomas, NC
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I meant to add one other thing - while I am not that convinced about the effectiveness of Icelandic horse evaluations, I have seen no evidence whatsoever of judges being drunk or hungover while judging, or of judges showing any bias in favour of their host's horses. The system is not perfect, but I do believe the judges, on the whole, are honourable and do the best job they can (though whether that's a GOOD job or not is sometimes debatable). Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
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On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:57:00 -0400, you wrote: >it to point out that if people who have been to lots of evaluations can't >clearly answer basic breeding evolution questions, I think though that perhaps part of the problem in the US (and the UK) is that very few - if any - people have actually been to lots of evaluations. We have one per year here if we're lucky. Some years there's none if it's not economically viable due to low numbers of horses to be judged (ie less than 10). I've been to a few in the Netherlands, and the occasional WC or Landsmot one, but frankly IMO attending a breeding show is about as exciting as watching paint dry unless you happen to have a horse there or are otherwise involved (and I'm speaking as a former Breeding Leader!). Breeding seminars are a bit of a different thing, and I've been to a few more of those, but again, not that many, simply because of costs and the fact that so many of them held in Europe or Iceland are, not surprisingly, not held in English, and while I can get by in Icelandic it's bloody hard work spending an entire weekend trying to learn things at a seminar in a foreign language. Then there's the whole system for training breeding judges - as with sports judges, every country has their own system for their national judges. The first UK national breeding judge became one by default (don't ask, it's a long story) and is no longer one - we don't have any, because the training of breeding judges is long, expensive and needs lots of practise and we in the UK simply don't have enough Icelandic horses or evaluations. Most countries ask for breeding judges to hold some sort of university degree in Equine studies, and have "X" years practise writing for qualified judges/attending evaluations etc etc etc, but I still feel that the entire method of evaluating Icelandic breeding horses is far too subjective. Judges often appear to be swayed by huge action or very flashy appearance and can be more forgiving about conformation faults than they are with less "good" horses. If a horse has been judged previously they are given a set of the marks obtained before they present their own marks (!). Although there are two or three judges who judge together, if one judge has a very strong opinion about something he/she can usually manage to persuade the other judges as they all have to agree. A professional rider will nearly always get higher marks with a horse than an unknown - is that because the professional gets more out of the horse? - I'm not always convinced In my opinion the shoeing and boots etc are not the problem at breeding shows, but the system as a whole desperately needs a rethink. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
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>>>post prior, especially knowing that Mic is a sports judge. >> Which is very different from a breeding judge. and I'm always only >> too happy to answer questions. I believe that Mic, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I only mentioned it to point out that if people who have been to lots of evaluations can't clearly answer basic breeding evolution questions, then I don't know how I can expect an expensive cross-country trip to answer all of my questions...and I'm in no mood to spend days and potentially thousands of dollars to travel to an event that I have so many doubts about. Frankly, I also resent that I was singled out for a lecture, when you (and many others) obviously share at least some of my skepticism. That's an old tactic that's been applied to those of us who DARE to question things in this breed - attack the questioner, and hope they will shamefully scurry back to their corner and shut up. I'm not much of a corner-scurrier. There's the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, then shame on me." I was indeed very "fooled" once into believing that the Icelander led clinic I attended would be worthwhile, since the clinicians came highly recommended. It was a joke, the worst excuse of a "clinic" I've ever seen, and I've been to a lot of clinics in my life. Looking back, I wished I'd asked more questions before I went, so after that, I tried to ask many questions before going to a breeding evaluation - I'm not a person who's happy being "fooled twice". But, I am glad in a way that I went - I think it jolted me out of my complacency about the problems in this breed, just as seeing Eight Belles dead on the Churchill Downs track did about TB racing. Since I couldn't get many very basic questions answered, and I was continually met with that vague and unhelpful "you have to go see for yourself" attitude, a lot of red flags started going up. Why don't more people who've been to these things volunteer to answer some basic questions? Gosh, those of us who attend Parelli clinics, or Liz Graves clinics, or Jane Savoie demos, or Centered Riding clinics or saddle-fit clinics, whoever/whatever, we all come back to the list and try to share what we've learned. When the same people who (blindly?) recommended the clinicians I saw also seemed to be the same people who touted the breeding evaluations in the USA, I got even more skeptical. If they couldn't see the obvious problems with those clinicians, then why would I believe anything else they recommend? Then I started noticing how vague the praise was - "he's wonderful," "we had so much fun," and "Jane Doe's new facility is just beautiful", and such, but nothing specific about the clinics, and no general information about what they'd learned about the HORSES at the evaluation clinics, no evaluation clinic reports at all to speak of... Hmmm... The more I've dug, the more skeptical I've become with the whole process, and I've been digging hard for six years. Again, if the system were indeed intended to benefit the breed and its future, basic questions SHOULD be welcomed. A good system will stand up to scrutiny. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
-Original Message- From: Karen Thomas >>> It is unfair to state what the judges attitudes will be when you have never been to an >>> evaluation. >It's unfair that you quoted me for saying that, when I was echoing what Mic >said in one >post prior, especially knowing that Mic is a sports judge. Of course, the >archives will >show that attitude has been demonstrated over and over to people who ask >questions. It's >unfair that people like you can't answer questions about the process, but >still put the >burden on the masses to "go see for yourself". I am telling you that at all the evaluations I have attended there have never been the problems or difficulties you describe. Questions could be asked at appropriate times. The process was explained fully. The details of the judging process and how the marks were awarded was explained. If you did ask a question about the process perhaps I can give an answer. The only "burden" I wish to place on anyone is to be factual. It seems to me that the most logical way for you to be dissuaded from your beliefs of what happens at an Evaluation, or to have the satisfaction of proving that you were right all along, would be to attend an evaluation. No need to take a horse. Spectators can get close to the action and attend the seminars. It is not the criticism of Breeding Evaluations I oppose. It is the fact you use descriptions of events that never occur, IMHO, as the basis of your critique. Phil
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 06:28:05 -0400, you wrote: >post prior, especially knowing that Mic is a sports judge. Which is very different from a breeding judge. and I'm always only too happy to answer questions. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
>>> It is unfair to state what the judges attitudes will be when you have never >>> been to an >>> evaluation. It's unfair that you quoted me for saying that, when I was echoing what Mic said in one post prior, especially knowing that Mic is a sports judge. Of course, the archives will show that attitude has been demonstrated over and over to people who ask questions. It's unfair that people like you can't answer questions about the process, but still put the burden on the masses to "go see for yourself". Karen Thomas, NC
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>>> You learned this by ? By reading circular questions/answers on these lists, answers that never get us any information but just keep us going in circles. By listening to people who attack the questioners - that's a real sign of problems in any organization. By listening to people who can't answer basic questions about the process, but who keep saying, over and over, "you have to go see for yourself." Like you just did, Phil... >>> AMAZING you can comment on the sobriety of the judges when you have never >>> attended an >>> evaluation. People like you put the burden on the masses to go to the evaluations to prove the system valid. I say the burden should be on the system to be meaningful, and to stand up to scrutiny and to be fair and valid...and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I say if the evaluations were up to snuff, I would go. I was all for the system when I first heard about it, but a flawed system is worse than no system at ll Why on earth would I spend my time and money when I can see so many flaws from afar? That I have heard about the drinking and partying is just one more reason for me to question the processbut it's not the only one. Sadly I can't think of one single reason to support the evaluations, and I don't have to waste my money to know that. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
Karen Thomas wrote >You know, this whole thing just blows my mind. I mean, these are supposed >to be BREEDING EVALUATIONS. They aren't supposed to be shows that one >"wins" or "loses", they are supposed to be tools for educating owners what >to look for in breeding horses, so as to preserve the breed, right? Yet, >the written evaluation rules are so vague as to be meaningless. Every breeding evaluation I know of in North America had a seminar offered, usually the day before where anyone could learn the details of how and what the judges look at and how the marks are be arrived at. There were usually live animals used so that you could see exactly what's looked at and there were lots of chances to ask questions such as, what are wet tendons? >Then, while it's going on, I can't ask the judge questions >while he's judging my horse If the judges had to answer questions and explain the process while they were judging they would never get through all the horses. They are observing and discussing among themselves most of the time. Outside distractions would bog down the process. >...and if I ask him afterwards, I'm told that I'm >probably such a little nobody that this oh-so-important JUDGE won't >remember >me or my fat circus pony. It is unfair to state what the judges attitudes will be when you have never been to an evaluation. I have never seen this attitude by the judges at the evaluations I have attended. Remember it is multiple judges. In North America where we usually have 20 odd horses evaluated it is more likely the judges will remember individual animals. In Iceland they sometimes are judging hundreds of horses at a single evaluation and are less likely to recall most individual animals afterwards. >I'd say that I learned >that someone knows how to sucker me out of my money, and I'd better keep a >better watch on my bank account next time. And apparently people keep >falling for this... You learned this by ? >Funny, you can't talk to the judge about the specifics of your horse's >conformation, because that might seem "improper" Again never have I seen this occur. Generally the judges are very open to explaining details at the end of the day, if they can. There are also notes on the evaluation forms they use to help outline details of what they liked or disliked about each part and overall. >but it's perfectly ok >that judges can stay in the homes of people whose horses they are judging, I started out writing; Well I suppose you would rather see the fees increased so the judges can be put up at hotels. As you wrote earlier "..these are supposed to be BREEDING EVALUATIONS. They aren't supposed to be shows that one "wins" or "loses"," A better response would be; I will admit this may not be ideal but personally my complaint in this vein is that the judges look at the pedigree before judging the horses. >sometimes drinking and partying into the night and even into next day when >they will be judging again. Amazing. AMAZING you can comment on the sobriety of the judges when you have never attended an evaluation. A very unfair statement from you, implying the judges are drunk while judging, IMHO. Never an issue at evaluations I have attended. As in many human endeavors I am sure there have been incidents where excessive drinking has occurred but I would contend it is the exception not the rule. Lord knows there are lots of things I would like to see changed about the breeding evaluations. Constructive criticism is useful but it gets tiring to see some of the complaints about the system from people that either have little or no understanding about how the evaluations work or just dislike anything to do with any FEIF/USIHC functions because it is FEIF/USIHC. -I could put CIHF in there too but for most of the list members it does not matter-. Phil
