Re: More on bake-offs and trademarks

2000-11-07 Thread Jon Crowcroft


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Henning Schulzrinne typed:

 >>"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you... "
 >>Apparently, Pillsbury is on a bigger crusade, as the editorial change at
 >>http://cacheoff.ircache.net/ is indeed due to lawyer pressure, based on
 >>reports from the owners of the site.
 >>

an earliesh ref is below.

if (as i assume) they are referrng to 19th century pie competitions
between people at county fairs, i think they have a problem coz that
means its a word in common use and not a trademark

 cheers

   jon
-

11-Feb-88 18:46:52-PST,1331;M
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 88 21:33:49 ESTM
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:   Hal Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>M
cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], M
  [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:  Re:  Life in the Swamps / TestingM
Message-ID:  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>M
M
Hal,M
M
Once upon a time Vint Cerf was keeper of the alligators and even Bob
BradenM
collected a few. I've got a backyard full of the critters myself.
However,M
the point of my remark was that we don't need to invent bizarre test
suites,M
just how well it works in the current environment. What may be more
usefulM
for you would be to find out what the current environment really is
(lossM
rates, mangle angles, quench characteristiccs, etc., then build a
flakewayM
(broken network simulator) with similar characteristics and do war
with it.M
That's in fact how we did the initial IP testing (with credit to Bob
Braden)M
in the bakeoffs of antiquity.M
M
I'll rephrase my homily: We have met the enemy and he is us. Now you
mayM
understand my preocupation with swamps. Pass the stogies, Albert.M
M
DaveM




Re: Bake-off as trademark

2000-11-07 Thread John Stracke

Scott Brim wrote:

> At 09:22 PM 11/06/2000 +, Bob Braden wrote:
> >Henning,
> >
> >Please see RFC 1025 from Sept 1987, or IEN 160 (online at
> >the RFC Editor web site) for a November 1980 bake off.
> >Is this 20 years ago early enough?
>
> Since the first Pillsbury Bake-Off was 50 years ago, no.

Well, but if they've failed to defend their trademark for 20 years, maybe
they've lost it.

--
/==\
|John Stracke| http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own.|
|Chief Scientist |=|
|eCal Corp.  |Any sufficiently rigged demo is  |
|[EMAIL PROTECTED]|indistinguishable from advanced technology.  |
\==/







Re: Bake-off as trademark

2000-11-07 Thread Paul Hoffman / IMC

OK, we have now reached >20 messages from armchair lawyers on 
trademark law. Given the earlier threads this year from armchair 
lawyers on patents, that leaves us just two months for us to have a 
ponderous thread on trade secrets, and we will have covered the main 
parts of intellectual property law.

For 2001, I propose that we have at least one long thread with our 
expert opinions on international law, given that the IETF is a global 
community.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium




Is there a URL for the Pillsbury "bake-off" cease-and-desist letter?

2000-11-07 Thread Jeff . Hodges

thanks,

JeffH





RFC 2327 extensions - draft document

2000-11-07 Thread Raghavendra Rao

Hi,

Need to know how the IETF draft document on 
"extensions to RFC 2327 for use in ATM base network" may be
accessed.

The URL:://Draft-ietf-megaco-sdp-atm-00.txt is no longer accessible.

Thanks in adv,
Ragahvendra

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
leave a trail. -Ralph Waldo Emerson






why specify on-the-wire protocols?

2000-11-07 Thread Jeff . Hodges

"So why," I am asked from time-to-time, "should we bother thoroughly 
specifying on-the-wire protocols? Why isn't just having the app (or whatever) 
open a socket to the other machine and schlep bytes over to it good enough? 
Why isn't it good enough to hide the protocol behind an API and only think 
about this protocol stuff in terms of APIs?"

Examples of this are various apps or chunks of middleware which are built in a 
given environment and on a given (set of) platform(s). Often, it seems, the 
"protocols" aren't designed per se, rather APIs are designed and some common 
technique (perhaps one that's a feature of the environment this is being done 
within, e.g. SUN ONC RPC) is used "under the hood" of the API to actually get 
bits across the wire in a coherent fashion, but the on-the-wire protocol per 
se is (often) never designed and/or documented as such (in these situations).

Most everyone on this list "gets" why we (the IETF community) design and 
document protocols from an on-the-wire perspective --  but I can't seem to 
find it concisely written down anywhere.

What I'm looking for is existing documents that concisely explain this 
reasoning (so I can use 'em when trying to answer the above class of 
questions).

E.g. I've been trying to RTFM and have looked at..

  Architectural Principles of the Internet
  http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1958.txt

  The Design Philosophy of the DARPA Internet Protocols.
  D.D.Clark, Proc SIGCOMM 88, ACM CCR Vol 18, Number 4, August 1988.
  http://netweb.usc.edu/cs551f00/papers/Clark.pdf

  End-To-End Arguments in System Design. J.H. Saltzer,
  D.P.Reed, D.D.Clark, ACM TOCS, Vol 2, Number 4, November 1984.
  http://www.reed.com/Papers/EndtoEnd.html

  Stacks: Interoperability in Today's Comuter Networks.
  Carl Malamud, 1992.

  Computer Networks. Andrew Tanenbaum, 1981 (yes, my bookshelf is dusty).

  Internetworking with TCP/IP: Principles, Protocols, and Architecture.
  Douglas Comer, 1988.


..plus poked about in http://www.ietf.org/ and with http//google.com/, and yet 
I haven't been able to find a paper, book, or whatever that clearly and
concisely says something like..

  "when designing computer-to-computer network communications, it behooves 
   the designers to do so from an on-the-wire protocol perspective, because
   blah, blah, blah..."


[true story: while I was researching/writing this, someone dropped by to ask 
some questions w.r.t. an "industry leading" vendor's authentication server. We 
were discussing communication between the server and code running on another 
node, and I said something like "..and so one uses some protocol to talk with 
the server, right?", and he says "Right, they've defined an API that you 
call." and gives me an otherwise blank look.  ~sigh~ ]


Now, Comer does come pretty close with this bit in section 1.3 of the 
above-referenced book..

  Much of our discussion of services will focus on standards called 
  "protocols". Protocols, like TCP/IP, give the formulas for passing messages, 
  specify the details of message formats, and describe how to handle error 
  conditions. Most important, they allow us to discuss communication standards 
  independent of any particular vendor's network hardware. In a sense, 
  protocols are to communication what programming languages are to 
computation.
  A programming language allows one to specify or understand computation 
  without knowing the details of any particular CPU instruction set. 
Similarly,
  a communication protocol allows one to specify or understand data 
  communication without depending on a detailed knowledge of a particular 
  vendor's network hardware. 


..and I do like his analogy of protocols as compared to (higher than assembly) 
programming languages. But I guess I'm looking for something more fleshed out 
and focused on this point.

Anyone have any ideas and/or relevant pointers?

thanks,

JeffH

ps: I note that RFC 1983 has a nice concise definition for "protocol".