Re: [Q] Presentation at 49th meeting
At 11:40 04/12/2000 +0900, Lee, Jiwoong wrote: >Neophyte speaker question: > >Is a piece of 2HD disk enough to give a presentation at 49th IETF meeting? >Then, when shall I 'put' it into a laptop? recent meetings, the secretariat (or the host) has provided a lot of projectors. So far, they don't provide laptops. mandatory rant against spending time on presentations rather than discussions at WG meetings deleted. -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, [EMAIL PROTECTED] +47 41 44 29 94 Personal email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Q] Presentation at 49th meeting
Neophyte speaker question: Is a piece of 2HD disk enough to give a presentation at 49th IETF meeting? Then, when shall I 'put' it into a laptop? Many thanks Jiwoong
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
- Original Message - From: "lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 19:00 Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web? > > > "I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email > address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit > reply". > > Adi > Good point. I didn't think about e-mail addresses. Kimon _NetZero Free Internet Access and Email__ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
> "I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email > address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit > reply". if the app-presentation -> internal coding -> dns request mapping is not one:one and reversable on the other end, even this is not sure to work. randy
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 04:56:38PM -0500, Kimon A. Andreou wrote: > > > You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or > amharic > > characters and expect it to reach. However you can address a letter to > someone > > in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in ASCII characters with a poor-phonetic > > approximation and expect it to reach (choice of locales based on > experience). > > > > > > > Adi > > But don't packets get routed using IP addresses (i.e. numbers) ? er, wrong layer. Although I'm as good at remembering IP addresses as phone numbers, you'll have a hard time convincing others to give up DNS. "I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit reply". Adi
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
Kimon gets a A. Betsy gets an F. d/ At 03:30 PM 12/3/00 -0500, Kimon A. Andreou wrote: >But isn't the Internet a medium of communication as is the Post and the >telephone? >Therefore, shouldn't it support communication between any two points, >wherever they may be or however they're called? > >Kimon >- Original Message - >From: "Betsy Brennan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already > > have the postal system and the phone system. T =-=-=-=-= Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brandenburg Consulting Tel: +1.408.246.8253, Fax: +1.408.273.6464
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
- Original Message - From: "R . P . Aditya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 16:20 Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web? > You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or amharic > characters and expect it to reach. However you can address a letter to someone > in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in ASCII characters with a poor-phonetic > approximation and expect it to reach (choice of locales based on experience). > > > Adi But don't packets get routed using IP addresses (i.e. numbers) ? Kimon ___ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
As has been noted, the _hard part_ is making the protocol that is used between countries' communications systems "language independent". > > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere > > in the world? I have yet to see a telephone dialpad that even has non-arabic base-10 numbers on it (has it slowed the spread and use of the phone system?). > > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to postal mail a letter or > > package to anywhere in the world? You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or amharic characters and expect it to reach. However you can address a letter to someone in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in ASCII characters with a poor-phonetic approximation and expect it to reach (choice of locales based on experience). At some point it's not worth the effort to "internationalize" all the layers...will the lucrative returns on additional domains pay for such an effort? and will that make an already "complex" Internet more accessible? Does Babelization without language isomorphism lead to Balkanization? Or, "why is machine translation so hard?". Adi On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 03:06:10PM -0500, Betsy Brennan wrote: > But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already > have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does > that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what > these systems do? BLB > > Dave Crocker wrote: > > > At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote: > > >I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of > > >the Internet community such a bad thing?". > > > > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere > > in the world? > > > > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to postal mail a letter or > > package to anywhere in the world? > > > > d/ > > > > ps. strictly rhetorical questions, as I hope is obvious. > > > > =-=-=-=-= > > Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Brandenburg Consulting > > Tel: +1.408.246.8253, Fax: +1.408.273.6464 >
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
But isn't the Internet a medium of communication as is the Post and the telephone? Therefore, shouldn't it support communication between any two points, wherever they may be or however they're called? Kimon - Original Message - From: "Betsy Brennan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 15:06 Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web? > But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already > have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does > that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what > these systems do? BLB > NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
> But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already > have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does > that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what > these systems do? i am sorry, but i can not understand the above. perhaps you were writing in californian. qed. randy
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what these systems do? BLB Dave Crocker wrote: > At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote: > >I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of > >the Internet community such a bad thing?". > > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere > in the world? > > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to postal mail a letter or > package to anywhere in the world? > > d/ > > ps. strictly rhetorical questions, as I hope is obvious. > > =-=-=-=-= > Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Brandenburg Consulting > Tel: +1.408.246.8253, Fax: +1.408.273.6464
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
> I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the > Internet community such a bad thing?". Why should it matter if, say, > Chinese-based domains aimed at Chinese audiences are not meaningfully > accessible to non-Chinese Internet users? There's a distinct issue that exists apart from the inter-human aspects - the packets containing these new character forms will flow, at least occasionally, into pretty much everyone's machines, routers, NATs, firewalls, web caches, etc - all of which need to be able to handle these new packets without ill effects. (The definition of "ill effect" will vary depending on what the box is supposed to be doing.) For instance, it would be "a bad thing" if some "transparent" web cache in some ISP went south when it re-resolved a URL that contained a domain name that either had itself a label in some non-hostname character set or was resolved via a CNAME containing non-hostname characters. In other words, although the humans (and their user interfaces) may Balkanize, the infrastructure on which the net operates should not. --karl--
Re: ACAP (RFC 2244)
At 12:18 PM -0500 12/3/00, Henning G. Schulzrinne wrote: > Are there any ACAP implementations out there? CMU has a free ACAP server. Stalker Software's Communigate Pro includes an ACAP server. I've heard of other companies developing ACAP servers, but nothing has been announced as far as I know. Several email clients use ACAP to one extent or another. Some browser developers have said they will add support for the bookmarks dataset. > If so, in reasonably widespread use? Use does seem to be expanding, but at a slow rate. > Is this still considered the best blueprint for > application configuration, e.g., also as a format for configuration > files or in transports other than the ACAP transport? It's probably the easiest to use of any available mechanism, and offers a number of advantages (efficient use of bandwidth, easy resynchronization, etc.). In my opinion, it's also a very nice protocol.
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
In my opinion, it is vital to craft Internet's evolution so as to maintain full connectivity and interworking among all its parts. I do not see "balkanization" as a good thing at all. I believe there are sound technical means to achieve the objective of incorporating character sets associated with non-roman languages but that critics need to understand more fully just how important the limitations of the current character set for domain names have been in maintaining interworking and also ability of so many applications to incorporate and refer to domain names. The IA4 alphabet includes essentially just the letters A-Z, numbers 0-9 and the "-" (dash). This is the limit of what is allowed in domain names today. Incorporating other character sets without deep technical consideration will risk the inestimable value of interworking across the Internet. It CAN be done but there is a great deal of work to make it function properly. Vint At 08:03 AM 12/3/2000 +, Graham Klyne wrote: >There's a news story at: > > http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1201f.html#item10 > >under the heading "Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?" > >Leaving aside the issues of competing registries, touched upon in that article, I had >been wondering with the formation of IDN WG how I18N would affect >cross-character-type-boundary Internet activities. > >I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the Internet >community such a bad thing?". Why should it matter if, say, Chinese-based domains >aimed at Chinese audiences are not meaningfully accessible to non-Chinese Internet >users? At a purely technological level, the priority ascribed to the end-to-end >architecture of the Internet has underpinned and presumed non-discriminatory >any-to-any communication. I wonder if this is a reasonable expectation at the social >level of Internet use. > >#g > >PS: I think it is without doubt that it is a Good Thing that we make efforts to >internationalize protocols; my comments/questions are an attempt to explore how far >this process can reasonable go. > > >Graham Klyne >([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote: >I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of >the Internet community such a bad thing?". Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere in the world? Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to postal mail a letter or package to anywhere in the world? d/ ps. strictly rhetorical questions, as I hope is obvious. =-=-=-=-= Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brandenburg Consulting Tel: +1.408.246.8253, Fax: +1.408.273.6464
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
At 03:03 03/12/00, Graham Klyne wrote: >I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the Internet >community such a bad thing?" A partioning based on nationality, which is of course different than language group, would be harmful. Lack of interoperability of standard protocols would be bad, for whatever reason, including incompatible localisations. Lack of standards support for internationalisation/multi-lingual computing, as different from localisation, would also be bad. > Why should it matter if, say, Chinese-based domains aimed >at Chinese audiences are not meaningfully accessible to >non-Chinese Internet users? What about people who can read and perhaps also write in Chinese characters but who are not Chinese (either ROC on Taiwan or PRC on the mainland) nationals ? Consider not only folks in Singapore or SE Asia generally, but also Chinese-capable folks in other places (e.g. North America, Europe). [NB: I'm deliberately ignoring the issues with Traditional vs Simplified characters just now, though that is also part of the internationalisation equation]. I regularly read my news from British or Hong Kong or other countries' web sites. Living in North America, I'm certainly not the target audience for the HK Standard or South China Morning Post. However, I do read those newspapers online. Less regularly, but occasionally, I do read Chinese web sites (in Chinese) or Japanese web sites (reading the Kanji portion only). I am most assuredly NOT the target audience for any of these web sites. On a daily basis, I receive mail with Chinese language contents, though a surprising amount of that turns out to be unsolicted bulk email in my own case. I receive a modest amount of German or Vietnamese email. So multi-lingual protocol capabilities are quite important to me. So for all those reasons, it does in fact matter a great deal. >At a purely technological level, the priority ascribed to the end-to-end architecture >of the Internet has underpinned and presumed non-discriminatory any-to-any >communication. I wonder if this is a reasonable expectation at the social level of >Internet use. I do think so. >PS: I think it is without doubt that it is a Good Thing that we make efforts to >internationalize protocols; my comments/questions are an attempt to explore how far >this process can reasonable go. I don't want to try to predict the future, so I won't. I can say that today, we are NOT anywhere close to a reasonable end point or stopping point for internationalisation of IETF standards-track protocols. In particular, we haven't resolved the basic internationalisation issues for a number of core infrastructure protocols (e.g. DNS). Regards, Ran [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
Graham; > Leaving aside the issues of competing registries, touched upon in that > article, I had been wondering with the formation of IDN WG how I18N would > affect cross-character-type-boundary Internet activities. Nothing. Cross-character-type-boundary is a pure localization issue and has nothing to do with people wrongly working on I18N. > PS: I think it is without doubt that it is a Good Thing that we make > efforts to internationalize protocols; If only you understand what "internationalize protocols" mean. ASCII (latin, numeric and hypen) characters are the only characters internationally recognizable by so many people. Masataka Ohta
Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
you may want to look at the work going on in the idn wg. randy
ACAP (RFC 2244)
Are there any ACAP implementations out there? If so, in reasonably widespread use? Is this still considered the best blueprint for application configuration, e.g., also as a format for configuration files or in transports other than the ACAP transport? Thanks (including for any 302 responses) -- Henning Schulzrinne http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs
Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
There's a news story at: http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1201f.html#item10 under the heading "Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?" Leaving aside the issues of competing registries, touched upon in that article, I had been wondering with the formation of IDN WG how I18N would affect cross-character-type-boundary Internet activities. I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the Internet community such a bad thing?". Why should it matter if, say, Chinese-based domains aimed at Chinese audiences are not meaningfully accessible to non-Chinese Internet users? At a purely technological level, the priority ascribed to the end-to-end architecture of the Internet has underpinned and presumed non-discriminatory any-to-any communication. I wonder if this is a reasonable expectation at the social level of Internet use. #g PS: I think it is without doubt that it is a Good Thing that we make efforts to internationalize protocols; my comments/questions are an attempt to explore how far this process can reasonable go. Graham Klyne ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
async voice wireless messaging update
For the first time, there is now an internet-enabled phone with email and voice recording capability approved for use in the US and Canadian markets: http://www.kyocera.com/News/displaypress.cfm?PressID=95 http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/showroom/showcase/coming_soon_6000.htm http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=112798&native_or_pdf=pdf http://spectrum.ic.gc.ca/~cert/rdaily.html This is the closest I've seen the gap yet. All that remains is to ask QUALCOMM to allow recorded voice memos to be attached to outgoing email messages with Eudora for PalmOS. QUALCOMM is headquartered in San Diego. I hope a lot of IETFers have the opportunity to request the feature in person. Maybe this will be made easier by the fact that they are co-hosting the terminal room. Cheers, James
