Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:06:31AM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer bortzme...@nic.fr wrote a message of 17 lines which said: Any statement somewhere explaining what will be done with the data? Since you talk about electronic blue sheets, I assume there will be many sensors, at least one per room so, in theory, the readers may be able to gather a lot of data about attendees. OK, the complete lack of answer is in itself a good indication. I will opt out. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Stephane, My apologies, I actually thought that I'd responded to this. Handheld readers will be passed around the meeting rooms, much as the clipboards are now (and still will be). Individuals will swipe their card through the reader and pass it on. Once collected, the data will be used as the current Blue Sheet data is used, that is, to respond to subpoena requests for attendance at different sessions typically issued during a dispute over intellectual property. At the moment, we are planning to print out a copy of the electronically obtained data and store it with the regular blue sheets, then keep the source file with the rest of our electronic archives. The data collected consist solely of an individuals full name and company/organization affiliation. We are not collecting email address information on the e-blue sheets. Alexa On Aug 31, 2009, at 2:15 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:06:31AM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer bortzme...@nic.fr wrote a message of 17 lines which said: Any statement somewhere explaining what will be done with the data? Since you talk about electronic blue sheets, I assume there will be many sensors, at least one per room so, in theory, the readers may be able to gather a lot of data about attendees. OK, the complete lack of answer is in itself a good indication. I will opt out. --- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amor...@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com http://www.amsl.com/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. But first some background. This draft was brought to a second last call in June because several IESG members felt uncomfortable with the IESG notes being used only in exceptional circumstances. I asked Russ to prepare the -07 version. This version allowed notes to be used at the IESG's discretion and suggested that the linkage (or lack thereof) to IETF work would typically be explained in the note. This version was taken to the second last call. While the number of comments we received was small, after the last call was over I determined that the consensus was against this change. As a result, I asked Russ to prepare the -08 version. This version goes back to the exceptional wording from -06, but incorporated a number of editorial corrections that had been made in interim. I also took the draft back to the IESG telechat last week. The IESG was not extremely pleased with the new version, but my understanding is that they were willing to accept the changes. However, a new issue was brought up: one of the changes that Russ and I felt was editorial highlighted the fact that the document makes the IESG notes a recommendation to the RFC Editor, not something that would automatically always be applied to the published RFC. Some IESG members were concerned about this, and preferred the latter. And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. (For the record my own slight preference is b. But I have to say that I think the document has been ready to be shipped from version -06, and its unfortunate that we're not there yet, particularly since this document is holding up the implementation of the new headers and boilerplates system for independent submissions, IRTF submissions and IETF submissions. I will exhaust all possible means of getting this approved in the next meeting, as soon as I know what the community opinion is.) Jari Arkko ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
--On Monday, August 31, 2009 16:29 +0300 Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. ... And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. Jari, I've said this before, but not during the recent Last Call, so, to get a note on the record... Any IESG note or comment, exceptional or otherwise, has always (always == since the IESG was created and long before it started writing notes) been an recommendation to the RFC Editor. That position is reflected in long-term precedent, in RFC 4844, and in the new RFC Editor Model document. Under the new model, should the RFC Editor decide to not accept a proposed IESG note, the IESG can raise the issue with the RSE and, if necessary, with the IAB, presumably causing a wider community review of the proposed note itself. That level of protection (which goes beyond that historically available) should be both necessary and sufficient for the IESG's purposes. Procedurally, should the IESG wish to change that position, I believe it would require the approval of the IAB (because it changes the RFC Editor role and relationship) and a review of the Headers and Boilerplates document, the RFC Editor Model document, and perhaps some of the statements of work associated with the new RFC Editor contracts and appointments. I have reason to believe that the IAB would insist on community review before granting such approval, so trying to change things in this area at this late date is not consistent with rapid progress and may be inconsistent with having a fully-functional RFC Editor function in place at the beginning of January. More broadly, as the community has discussed extensively, the IESG should not have the right to deprecate or denigrate the contents of any document from another stream without broad community consensus. Nothing in any community-approved IETF procedural document from RFC 2026 forward gives the IESG such authority (or authority for doing much of anything else other than steering/managing) without community approval and consensus. Even the claim in the original version of 3932 that a document has not been reviewed in the IETF is inappropriate unless such review has actually not occurred (whether or not consensus was reached). So I believe that your clarifying change was, in fact, editorial and that it should remain. ... regards, john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Following a request to look at this document, and with only a cursory look at the archives, I'm confused. The note is always intended to be included in the document itself, right? Is this change designed to compel, as opposed to request, the RFC Editor to include the note? If the answer to those is yes, then I support the change. The RFC Editor is not selected to make judgments on whether a note from the IESG should, or should not be included in a document. It's not an editorial judgment, it's is a technical concern. However, I think some form of appeal is needed, perhaps to the IAB, that would allow authors some measure of control of what goes in their document. Brian On 8/31/09 9:29 AM, Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. But first some background. This draft was brought to a second last call in June because several IESG members felt uncomfortable with the IESG notes being used only in exceptional circumstances. I asked Russ to prepare the -07 version. This version allowed notes to be used at the IESG's discretion and suggested that the linkage (or lack thereof) to IETF work would typically be explained in the note. This version was taken to the second last call. While the number of comments we received was small, after the last call was over I determined that the consensus was against this change. As a result, I asked Russ to prepare the -08 version. This version goes back to the exceptional wording from -06, but incorporated a number of editorial corrections that had been made in interim. I also took the draft back to the IESG telechat last week. The IESG was not extremely pleased with the new version, but my understanding is that they were willing to accept the changes. However, a new issue was brought up: one of the changes that Russ and I felt was editorial highlighted the fact that the document makes the IESG notes a recommendation to the RFC Editor, not something that would automatically always be applied to the published RFC. Some IESG members were concerned about this, and preferred the latter. And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. (For the record my own slight preference is b. But I have to say that I think the document has been ready to be shipped from version -06, and its unfortunate that we're not there yet, particularly since this document is holding up the implementation of the new headers and boilerplates system for independent submissions, IRTF submissions and IETF submissions. I will exhaust all possible means of getting this approved in the next meeting, as soon as I know what the community opinion is.) Jari Arkko ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
--On Monday, August 31, 2009 10:59 -0400 Brian Rosen b...@brianrosen.net wrote: Following a request to look at this document, and with only a cursory look at the archives, I'm confused. The note is always intended to be included in the document itself, right? Is this change designed to compel, as opposed to request, the RFC Editor to include the note? If the answer to those is yes, then I support the change. The RFC Editor is not selected to make judgments on whether a note from the IESG should, or should not be included in a document. It's not an editorial judgment, it's is a technical concern. Brian, Remember that 3932bis applies to the Independent Submission stream, not to IETF documents of any flavor. These are, in general, documents that have not been formally reviewed in the IETF (although many of them have been extensively discussed). They are not IETF Stream documents, about which, subject to push-back from WGs and the community, the IESG can do pretty much as it likes. For these documents, there is no IETF Last Call. If the IESG creates a note, that note reflects the individual judgments of the ADs (and presumably IESG review and approval of those judgments) and not the rough consensus of the IETF community. Given that, while it may be a technical concern (or at least reflective of a technical preference), it is a concern from (at most) a group of individuals who happen to be on the IESG; there is no requirement that it represent a technical concern from the IETF community. In that context, what you are really asking for is that the preferences or concerns of that group of individuals -- preferences that they could not get the RFC Editor or document authors to accept through normal review channels -- override the decision-making process and approval of a non-IETF stream. Especially since we expect documents in the Independent Submission stream that would carefully criticize or provide alternatives to IETF-approved approaches (see RFC 4846), giving the IESG that much authority, especially without consulting the IETF Community and determining consensus, does not seem sensible or consistent to me. Indeed, it seems like a mechanism for permitting only authorized dissent. ... YMMD. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
John, Jari - I was one of the folks expressing the concern Jari points to below, and it's a small facet of a larger worry I have about a potential (and I think likely) unintended consequence of the header/boilerplate changes. To capture that in this thread (with apologies for walking through old discussions) : specifically, I think we're making it even harder for people who are not deeply steeped in IETF arcana to tell the difference between the output of a working group (or any other IETF product) and the output of an individual. By downplaying that distinction, we are also making it easier for people with the motivation to champion technologies that compete with IETF products to convince those non IETF-arcana-steeped folks around them to follow. But, that's water under the headers and boilerplate consensus building bridge. I think it should be more _routine_ than we are making it for _some_ body representing IETF consensus to shine a light on that distinction when necessary. The escalation process you point to is a fairly high bar and it puts providing the required energy on the wrong parties. I'm sensitive to the 'how it has always been' argument, but we are exactly in the process of changing to a new RFC-editor model. I've also been asking a few regular contributors and some chairs what they thought about this, and am very frustrated with how little attention the entire change this small conversation is part of appears to have received in the greater community. I don't know what to do to improve that beyond what we're doing now (through calls like this and through individual prodding). RjS On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:37 AM, John C Klensin wrote: --On Monday, August 31, 2009 16:29 +0300 Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. ... And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. Jari, I've said this before, but not during the recent Last Call, so, to get a note on the record... Any IESG note or comment, exceptional or otherwise, has always (always == since the IESG was created and long before it started writing notes) been an recommendation to the RFC Editor. That position is reflected in long-term precedent, in RFC 4844, and in the new RFC Editor Model document. Under the new model, should the RFC Editor decide to not accept a proposed IESG note, the IESG can raise the issue with the RSE and, if necessary, with the IAB, presumably causing a wider community review of the proposed note itself. That level of protection (which goes beyond that historically available) should be both necessary and sufficient for the IESG's purposes. Procedurally, should the IESG wish to change that position, I believe it would require the approval of the IAB (because it changes the RFC Editor role and relationship) and a review of the Headers and Boilerplates document, the RFC Editor Model document, and perhaps some of the statements of work associated with the new RFC Editor contracts and appointments. I have reason to believe that the IAB would insist on community review before granting such approval, so trying to change things in this area at this late date is not consistent with rapid progress and may be inconsistent with having a fully-functional RFC Editor function in place at the beginning of January. More broadly, as the community has discussed extensively, the IESG should not have the right to deprecate or denigrate the contents of any document from another stream without broad community consensus. Nothing in any community-approved IETF procedural document from RFC 2026 forward gives the IESG such authority (or authority for doing much of anything else other than steering/managing) without community approval and consensus. Even the claim in the original version of 3932 that a document has not been reviewed in the IETF is inappropriate unless such review has actually not occurred (whether or not consensus was reached). So I believe that your clarifying change was, in fact, editorial and that it should remain. ... regards, john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
I have a serious concern about the impact of this decision and the perception of RFCs by the community that uses the output of the IETF. The IETF process has a number of very strong safeguards in place to ensure that the protocols we publish have certain levels of quality and safety built in, and the Internet community at large has grown to associate that level of quality with the RFC series. While the presence of alternate streams of publication doesn't bother me, I think they need to be automatically and prominently marked as being something other than an IETF document. In particular, when a user accesses a document at a url of the form http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc.txt, there is going to be a strong presumption on their part that the document was produced by the IETF. In the cases that this presumption is incorrect, it seems tantamount to deception to tuck the distinction between IETF and non-IETF documents away in an obscure header field. /a Jari Arkko wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. But first some background. This draft was brought to a second last call in June because several IESG members felt uncomfortable with the IESG notes being used only in exceptional circumstances. I asked Russ to prepare the -07 version. This version allowed notes to be used at the IESG's discretion and suggested that the linkage (or lack thereof) to IETF work would typically be explained in the note. This version was taken to the second last call. While the number of comments we received was small, after the last call was over I determined that the consensus was against this change. As a result, I asked Russ to prepare the -08 version. This version goes back to the exceptional wording from -06, but incorporated a number of editorial corrections that had been made in interim. I also took the draft back to the IESG telechat last week. The IESG was not extremely pleased with the new version, but my understanding is that they were willing to accept the changes. However, a new issue was brought up: one of the changes that Russ and I felt was editorial highlighted the fact that the document makes the IESG notes a recommendation to the RFC Editor, not something that would automatically always be applied to the published RFC. Some IESG members were concerned about this, and preferred the latter. And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. (For the record my own slight preference is b. But I have to say that I think the document has been ready to be shipped from version -06, and its unfortunate that we're not there yet, particularly since this document is holding up the implementation of the new headers and boilerplates system for independent submissions, IRTF submissions and IETF submissions. I will exhaust all possible means of getting this approved in the next meeting, as soon as I know what the community opinion is.) Jari Arkko ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Before commenting on the question, I wish to comment slightly on the exposition. While I understand that some IESG members were surprised that the text brought to them treated IESG notes as a recommendation to the RFC Editor, such surprise gap in historical information rather than a change. That text was not a change in practice. The documented rules and practice has long been that with regard to Independent Submissions the IESG notes are a request / recommendation to the RFC Editor (soon to be ISE), not a statement of what will be included in the result. Based on having seen a number of IESG notes, and reading the resulting text and its inherent tone, I would strongly prefer that IESG notes be an exception. Also, I believe that the stream identification and associated indications are quite sufficient for the normal case. Unless we wish to deliberately denigrate the Independent Submissions tream, we should not be putting extra notes on the front of them. I consider the Independent Stream to be an important source of information and commentary that helps the overall internet process, and would be very unhappy to see it denigrated. Thus, I strongly prefer (a). I prefer that such notes be rare, and that they remain recommendations to the ISE. Even if the IAB were to agree that such notes should be common, I would strongly recommend that the tone and content of such notes remain at the discretion of the ISE. Otherwise, there is no true Independent series. Yours, Joel M. Halpern Jari Arkko wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. But first some background. This draft was brought to a second last call in June because several IESG members felt uncomfortable with the IESG notes being used only in exceptional circumstances. I asked Russ to prepare the -07 version. This version allowed notes to be used at the IESG's discretion and suggested that the linkage (or lack thereof) to IETF work would typically be explained in the note. This version was taken to the second last call. While the number of comments we received was small, after the last call was over I determined that the consensus was against this change. As a result, I asked Russ to prepare the -08 version. This version goes back to the exceptional wording from -06, but incorporated a number of editorial corrections that had been made in interim. I also took the draft back to the IESG telechat last week. The IESG was not extremely pleased with the new version, but my understanding is that they were willing to accept the changes. However, a new issue was brought up: one of the changes that Russ and I felt was editorial highlighted the fact that the document makes the IESG notes a recommendation to the RFC Editor, not something that would automatically always be applied to the published RFC. Some IESG members were concerned about this, and preferred the latter. And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. (For the record my own slight preference is b. But I have to say that I think the document has been ready to be shipped from version -06, and its unfortunate that we're not there yet, particularly since this document is holding up the implementation of the new headers and boilerplates system for independent submissions, IRTF submissions and IETF submissions. I will exhaust all possible means of getting this approved in the next meeting, as soon as I know what the community opinion is.) Jari Arkko ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Joel M. Halpern wrote: Thus, I strongly prefer (a). I prefer that such notes be rare, and that they remain recommendations to the ISE. +1 to that, S. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Stephane, Chill out, it's an experiment. The details are yet to be worked out, but for instance it COULD be used to identify the person at the mike which would be good for the minutes and good for the Jabber scribe. WIDE has used it for such in the past. A *possible* use would be to automate the blue sheet data collection, but there are NO PLANS AT THIS TIME to replace the paper version. This is an EXPERIMENT. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:06:31AM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer bortzme...@nic.fr wrote a message of 17 lines which said: Any statement somewhere explaining what will be done with the data? Since you talk about electronic blue sheets, I assume there will be many sensors, at least one per room so, in theory, the readers may be able to gather a lot of data about attendees. OK, the complete lack of answer is in itself a good indication. I will opt out. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
If I understand your note properly, your primary concern is that folks will think that Independent submission are IETF products. This is a fair concern. But the same could be said all our experimental and informational RFCs. Should we insist that all experimental and informational RFC, even from IETF WGs, carry big warnings THIS IS NOT AN IETF STANDARD. Repeated multiple times to make sure folks do not miss it? (remember, Independent Submissions are never standards track documents.) Wed try very hard to make it clear to folks that there is a difference between standards track documents and non-standards track documents. Independent Stream documents are not standards track documents. While it is important to note when experimental or informational documents have had community review, and when they haven't, I do not see that the distinction, for these documents, warrants denigrating outside comment and input. Remember also that in terms of the text being a recommendation, this is not a change in practice. This is the practice we have had for more than the last 15 years. If, for Independent Submissions, it is that big a problem, I would expect ot have heard of it. Also, to pick up a comment from Robert, and reinforce and answer from John, in providing an IESG note for an Independent Submission, the IESG is not shining the light of IETF consensus (rough or otherwise) on the document. While I strongly respect the IESG judgment, and want them to keep using and applying that judgment, I do not think it fair to conflate that with reflecting IETF consensus on something where there no source for such consensus. (For clarity, I do want the IESG to have the opportunity to make their recommendation, and I want it taken serious by the ISE / RSE. This is because they do have a view of the IETF activity picture, and can provide necessary perspective and judgment about the relationships among the moving parts. But let us not induce confusion by assigning that judgment inappropriate grounding.) Yours, Joel Adam Roach wrote: I have a serious concern about the impact of this decision and the perception of RFCs by the community that uses the output of the IETF. The IETF process has a number of very strong safeguards in place to ensure that the protocols we publish have certain levels of quality and safety built in, and the Internet community at large has grown to associate that level of quality with the RFC series. While the presence of alternate streams of publication doesn't bother me, I think they need to be automatically and prominently marked as being something other than an IETF document. In particular, when a user accesses a document at a url of the form http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc.txt, there is going to be a strong presumption on their part that the document was produced by the IETF. In the cases that this presumption is incorrect, it seems tantamount to deception to tuck the distinction between IETF and non-IETF documents away in an obscure header field. /a Jari Arkko wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. But first some background. This draft was brought to a second last call in June because several IESG members felt uncomfortable with the IESG notes being used only in exceptional circumstances. I asked Russ to prepare the -07 version. This version allowed notes to be used at the IESG's discretion and suggested that the linkage (or lack thereof) to IETF work would typically be explained in the note. This version was taken to the second last call. While the number of comments we received was small, after the last call was over I determined that the consensus was against this change. As a result, I asked Russ to prepare the -08 version. This version goes back to the exceptional wording from -06, but incorporated a number of editorial corrections that had been made in interim. I also took the draft back to the IESG telechat last week. The IESG was not extremely pleased with the new version, but my understanding is that they were willing to accept the changes. However, a new issue was brought up: one of the changes that Russ and I felt was editorial highlighted the fact that the document makes the IESG notes a recommendation to the RFC Editor, not something that would automatically always be applied to the published RFC. Some IESG members were concerned about this, and preferred the latter. And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. (For the record my own slight preference is b. But I have to say
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Joel M. Halpern wrote: The documented rules and practice has long been that with regard to Independent Submissions the IESG notes are a request / recommendation to the RFC Editor (soon to be ISE), not a statement of what will be included in the result. ... Based on having seen a number of IESG notes, and reading the resulting text and its inherent tone, I would strongly prefer that IESG notes be an exception. ... Thus, I strongly prefer (a). I prefer that such notes be rare, and that they remain recommendations to the ISE. +1. It might help folks to understand the independent relationship, between the IETF/IESG and these other RFC streams, if the title of this draft were changed from Handling of to Assisting with. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
At 5:55 AM -0700 8/31/09, Alexa Morris wrote: The data collected consist solely of an individuals full name and company/organization affiliation. We are not collecting email address information on the e-blue sheets. Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I have noted that some people I know who have signed a blue sheet before me have used personal email addresses while (I assume) their badge lists their actual company/organization affiliation. As a person with multiple company/organization affiliations, I sometimes change the email address I put on the blue sheets to be the one most appropriate to the topic of the WG. It is a bad idea to have this experiment create combined blue sheets that have data that differs depending on the collection method. There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Please strongly consider having the readers record exactly what the current blue sheets record, or change the blue sheets to record what the readers are recording for this meeting. The first of these two will most likely cause less revolt. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to make a judgment of whether a technical note is, or is not appropriate to be included in a document. I think the presumption should be that it is appropriate, and the authors have a way to object. While I understand the role of the ISE is somewhat different from the RFC Editor, I understand the role to be primarily editorial and we are not choosing the ISE with regard to their ability to make judgments like whether the IESG note is appropriate or not. I think it would be okay to have the note go through an IETF consensus call. Brian On 8/31/09 11:25 AM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: Brian, Remember that 3932bis applies to the Independent Submission stream, not to IETF documents of any flavor. These are, in general, documents that have not been formally reviewed in the IETF (although many of them have been extensively discussed). They are not IETF Stream documents, about which, subject to push-back from WGs and the community, the IESG can do pretty much as it likes. For these documents, there is no IETF Last Call. If the IESG creates a note, that note reflects the individual judgments of the ADs (and presumably IESG review and approval of those judgments) and not the rough consensus of the IETF community. Given that, while it may be a technical concern (or at least reflective of a technical preference), it is a concern from (at most) a group of individuals who happen to be on the IESG; there is no requirement that it represent a technical concern from the IETF community. In that context, what you are really asking for is that the preferences or concerns of that group of individuals -- preferences that they could not get the RFC Editor or document authors to accept through normal review channels -- override the decision-making process and approval of a non-IETF stream. Especially since we expect documents in the Independent Submission stream that would carefully criticize or provide alternatives to IETF-approved approaches (see RFC 4846), giving the IESG that much authority, especially without consulting the IETF Community and determining consensus, does not seem sensible or consistent to me. Indeed, it seems like a mechanism for permitting only authorized dissent. ... YMMD. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
I won't be in Hiroshima and won't be able to participate nor will I be able to opt-out, so I don't have a personal stake in this and am commenting only as an interested observer. As has been noted, this won't be an absolutely clean, seamless replacement of the blue sheets. The list of possible downsides is already growing, e.g. privacy issues, inflexibility in choosing which email address to use for each working group, and I won't be surprised if the list grows a bit. At the same time, the list of possible new capabilities is also growing, e.g. identifying the speaking at the microphone. This sort of discussion is similar to other settings that are introducing electronic versions of previously manual processes, e.g. in the health care industry. Let me offer a point of view and a suggestion. Point of view: Rather than thinking of the RFID chips as serving to be simply a direct replacement of the blue sheets, take as a given that this will be a new and somewhat different technical foundation with some positives and some negatives. The blue sheets also had positives and negatives, e.g. the cost and pain of storing them, the difficulty and cost of reading them, their legal status and retention policy, etc. Look at the RFID chips from a fresh perspective, not solely as an automation of the blue sheets. Suggestion: As noted above, similar issues apply in other settings. This community has an opportunity to tackle the interplay of technology and social policy issues that affect itself far more cogently and efficiently than most communities do. Let's grasp the nettles and see if we can work through the issues in a sensible and rational way. Do we need a privacy policy regarding the information collected? If so, let's create one. Do we need access controls on the information? If so, let's create them. Do we need an ability to edit information that's been collected if it's inaccurate? If so, let's build it. Do we need more flexibility in the information stored in the record, e.g. a distinct email address for each working group? If so, let's add it. Steve On Aug 31, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: At 5:55 AM -0700 8/31/09, Alexa Morris wrote: The data collected consist solely of an individuals full name and company/organization affiliation. We are not collecting email address information on the e-blue sheets. Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I have noted that some people I know who have signed a blue sheet before me have used personal email addresses while (I assume) their badge lists their actual company/organization affiliation. As a person with multiple company/organization affiliations, I sometimes change the email address I put on the blue sheets to be the one most appropriate to the topic of the WG. It is a bad idea to have this experiment create combined blue sheets that have data that differs depending on the collection method. There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Please strongly consider having the readers record exactly what the current blue sheets record, or change the blue sheets to record what the readers are recording for this meeting. The first of these two will most likely cause less revolt. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Paul, The reason this is an EXPERIMENT is exactly to find out what/how/where/when information needs to be collected to be useful for the IETF. So, I can well imagine that we could have a alias or identity field that would represent exactly what you put on the bluesheet and THIS is the information that would be collected. It might get complicated if you have numerous aliases that you use for different working groups etc, but anyway, all of this is a matter of programming. I am going to assume (without having looked at the details) that the RFID card can hold a lot of information. I am going to suggest that we, with the help of WIDE, start a discussion list where some of these details can be ironed out. Cheers, Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, Paul Hoffman wrote: At 5:55 AM -0700 8/31/09, Alexa Morris wrote: The data collected consist solely of an individuals full name and company/organization affiliation. We are not collecting email address information on the e-blue sheets. Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I have noted that some people I know who have signed a blue sheet before me have used personal email addresses while (I assume) their badge lists their actual company/organization affiliation. As a person with multiple company/organization affiliations, I sometimes change the email address I put on the blue sheets to be the one most appropriate to the topic of the WG. It is a bad idea to have this experiment create combined blue sheets that have data that differs depending on the collection method. There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Please strongly consider having the readers record exactly what the current blue sheets record, or change the blue sheets to record what the readers are recording for this meeting. The first of these two will most likely cause less revolt. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Paul Hoffman wrote: There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Can you give examples of how providing company/organization affiliation has caused bites to the backside during protocol development/deployment? Were the bites well-deserved? /Larry -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:28 AM To: Alexa Morris Cc: IETF-Discussion Subject: Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration At 5:55 AM -0700 8/31/09, Alexa Morris wrote: The data collected consist solely of an individuals full name and company/organization affiliation. We are not collecting email address information on the e-blue sheets. Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I have noted that some people I know who have signed a blue sheet before me have used personal email addresses while (I assume) their badge lists their actual company/organization affiliation. As a person with multiple company/organization affiliations, I sometimes change the email address I put on the blue sheets to be the one most appropriate to the topic of the WG. It is a bad idea to have this experiment create combined blue sheets that have data that differs depending on the collection method. There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Please strongly consider having the readers record exactly what the current blue sheets record, or change the blue sheets to record what the readers are recording for this meeting. The first of these two will most likely cause less revolt. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
I like this thought quite a bit. I see the RFID thing as being a good idea in concept, and we need to work through how to use it most effectively. In this specific case, I think we treat the tag as an identifier, and allow the user to decide what the data associated with this identifier should be. After all, you can write whatever you please on the blue sheets. I personally would not have a problem if the name was immutable, but I could see giving up on that. Suppose there was a website where you could, either before, during, or after the event, indicate, per session, what you want on the electronic blue sheet. The swipe was the token that enabled the content of the website data to be copied. Establish a time limit (5 days after the session maybe) to freeze the content, do the mapping, and delete the website data. Brian On 8/31/09 12:56 PM, Steve Crocker st...@shinkuro.com wrote: I won't be in Hiroshima and won't be able to participate nor will I be able to opt-out, so I don't have a personal stake in this and am commenting only as an interested observer. As has been noted, this won't be an absolutely clean, seamless replacement of the blue sheets. The list of possible downsides is already growing, e.g. privacy issues, inflexibility in choosing which email address to use for each working group, and I won't be surprised if the list grows a bit. At the same time, the list of possible new capabilities is also growing, e.g. identifying the speaking at the microphone. This sort of discussion is similar to other settings that are introducing electronic versions of previously manual processes, e.g. in the health care industry. Let me offer a point of view and a suggestion. Point of view: Rather than thinking of the RFID chips as serving to be simply a direct replacement of the blue sheets, take as a given that this will be a new and somewhat different technical foundation with some positives and some negatives. The blue sheets also had positives and negatives, e.g. the cost and pain of storing them, the difficulty and cost of reading them, their legal status and retention policy, etc. Look at the RFID chips from a fresh perspective, not solely as an automation of the blue sheets. Suggestion: As noted above, similar issues apply in other settings. This community has an opportunity to tackle the interplay of technology and social policy issues that affect itself far more cogently and efficiently than most communities do. Let's grasp the nettles and see if we can work through the issues in a sensible and rational way. Do we need a privacy policy regarding the information collected? If so, let's create one. Do we need access controls on the information? If so, let's create them. Do we need an ability to edit information that's been collected if it's inaccurate? If so, let's build it. Do we need more flexibility in the information stored in the record, e.g. a distinct email address for each working group? If so, let's add it. Steve On Aug 31, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: At 5:55 AM -0700 8/31/09, Alexa Morris wrote: The data collected consist solely of an individuals full name and company/organization affiliation. We are not collecting email address information on the e-blue sheets. Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I have noted that some people I know who have signed a blue sheet before me have used personal email addresses while (I assume) their badge lists their actual company/organization affiliation. As a person with multiple company/organization affiliations, I sometimes change the email address I put on the blue sheets to be the one most appropriate to the topic of the WG. It is a bad idea to have this experiment create combined blue sheets that have data that differs depending on the collection method. There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Please strongly consider having the readers record exactly what the current blue sheets record, or change the blue sheets to record what the readers are recording for this meeting. The first of these two will most likely cause less revolt. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Ole Jacobsen wrote: The reason this is an EXPERIMENT is exactly to find out what/how/where/when information needs to be collected to be useful for the IETF. a reasonable goal. nothing has been offered to indicate that this will do that. there is a tendency in the IETF to confuse data with information. merely doing something differently doesn't mean that it teaches anything useful. this will produce some data -- and it's not entirely clear even what that will be -- but no indication of what analyses can be done with it to tell us anything useful. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Brian Rosen wrote: Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. It seems important to begin a discussion with true facts, and the statement immediately above is false. To quote Harald's words from RFC 3932: In March 2004, the IESG decided to make a major change in this review model. The new review model will have the IESG take responsibility ONLY for checking for conflicts between the work of the IETF and the documents submitted; soliciting technical review is deemed to be the responsibility of the RFC Editor. If an individual IESG member chooses to review the technical content of the document and finds issues, that member will communicate these issues to the RFC Editor, and they will be treated the same way as comments on the documents from other sources. Sigh. I suppose this message is a derivative work. Bob Braden' ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Steve Crocker wrote: Point of view: Rather than thinking of the RFID chips as serving to be simply a direct replacement of the blue sheets, take as a given that this will be a new and somewhat different technical foundation with some positives and some negatives. The blue sheets also had positives and negatives, e.g. the cost and pain of storing them, the difficulty and cost of reading them, their legal status and retention policy, etc. Look at the RFID chips from a fresh perspective, not solely as an automation of the blue sheets. The blue sheets have an established legal role. There's no indication that there is a problem with the information that is obtained, for this role. They are to be replaced by something that does not provide the same information. What is the basis for believing they will satisfy the established job for the blue sheet? What do we do if we find that they fail in this primary use? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Paul Hoffman wrote: Sorry, I hope that others reading my message understood it better. Paul, I still don't understand. The first sentence in your original email was: Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I thought that was the problem to which you were alluding. And my question remains: Is there any evidence that participants in IETF should not provide their company/organization affiliation when they participate? Is there something to hide? I appreciate and respect the following comment, also in your email: As a person with multiple company/organization affiliations, I sometimes change the email address I put on the blue sheets to be the one most appropriate to the topic of the WG. But that is not an excuse to provide no affiliation whatsoever, if you have one (or many). Also, what is the revolt you are expecting in your email? I've reread this entire thread about IETF 76 Meeting Registration and can't figure out who or what you find revolting about meeting registration data being collected by IETF? I'm sorry if I'm just being dense. /Larry -Original Message- From: Paul Hoffman [mailto:paul.hoff...@vpnc.org] Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:18 AM To: Lawrence Rosen; 'Alexa Morris' Cc: 'IETF-Discussion' Subject: RE: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration At 10:08 AM -0700 8/31/09, Lawrence Rosen wrote: Paul Hoffman wrote: There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Can you give examples of how providing company/organization affiliation has caused bites to the backside during protocol development/deployment? Were the bites well-deserved? Sorry, I hope that others reading my message understood it better. By this problem I meant the bit just before what you quoted: data that differs depending on the collection method. A few examples would be IDNs collected from DNS responses vs. user input, MIME headers that get fixed in various transports, IP addresses that differ depending on which side of the NAT you collect them, and so on. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:39 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to make a judgment of whether a technical note is, or is not appropriate to be included in a document. I think the presumption should be that it is appropriate, and the authors have a way to object. While I understand the role of the ISE is somewhat different from the RFC Editor, I understand the role to be primarily editorial and we are not choosing the ISE with regard to their ability to make judgments like whether the IESG note is appropriate or not. I think it would be okay to have the note go through an IETF consensus call. +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. (...and to venture into the water under the consensus bridge part of the discussion...) Joel wrote: If I understand your note properly, your primary concern is that folks will think that Independent submission are IETF products. This is a fair concern. But the same could be said all our experimental and informational RFCs. Should we insist that all experimental and informational RFC, even from IETF WGs, carry big warnings THIS IS NOT AN IETF STANDARD. Repeated multiple times to make sure folks do not miss it? (remember, Independent Submissions are never standards track documents.) Wed try very hard to make it clear to folks that there is a difference between standards track documents and non-standards track documents. Independent Stream documents are not standards track documents. And we fail miserably in those cases too. Since I first started contributing in the IETF, I have on countless occasions had to explain to people who don't participate that some given RFC is not a standard. To most of the world, RFC==standard. Maybe putting THIS IS NOT AN IETF STANDARD all over the place would help, but I'm not sure about even that. Even worse, I have personally seen multiple instances of marketing people intentionally introducing FUD by talking about compliancy to some non standards-track RFC. (or even an ID that had been actively deprecated by the relevant working group.) Personally, I think our first mistake was using the same document name prefix for the different streams. I am most particularly concerned about the case where a draft that was presented to a work group that selected not to publish it, and then later gets published in the independent stream. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, Dave CROCKER wrote: Ole Jacobsen wrote: The reason this is an EXPERIMENT is exactly to find out what/how/where/when information needs to be collected to be useful for the IETF. a reasonable goal. nothing has been offered to indicate that this will do that. Right, but of of course this hasn't stopped anyone from jumping on this and saying it's a bad idea etc. there is a tendency in the IETF to confuse data with information. This is a technology that is being offered by our HOST. The original idea expanded beyond the meeting, the card would work on trams, buses and subways. For various reasons that isn't going to happen, but I think you will find a lot of cool stuff being demonstrated here, let's just leave it at that for now. merely doing something differently doesn't mean that it teaches anything useful. There is no obligation to participate in the experiment or observe the cool use of the technology. this will produce some data -- and it's not entirely clear even what that will be -- but no indication of what analyses can be done with it to tell us anything useful. This isn't something the IAOC came up with as a policy or a bluesheet replacement, it is merely a technology demonstration. If all it leads to is some DISCUSSION about what/how we might use it in the future, then it will have achieved something. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
The blue sheets have an established legal role. There's no indication that there is a problem with the information that is obtained, for this role. They are to be replaced by something that does not provide the same information. NO, NO, and NO again. They aren't being replaced by anything, we are running an EXPERIMENT. What is the basis for believing they will satisfy the established job for the blue sheet? Nobody is talking about replacing the bluesheets with RFID cards. What do we do if we find that they fail in this primary use? Maybe I should get some sleep before I flame you for such blatant mis-information :-) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
At 9:59 AM -0700 8/31/09, Ole Jacobsen wrote: The reason this is an EXPERIMENT is exactly to find out what/how/where/when information needs to be collected to be useful for the IETF. No need to go all-caps on me, dude. :-) I used that word in my response in the way it was intended. I am going to suggest that we, with the help of WIDE, start a discussion list where some of these details can be ironed out. Excellent! --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Joel M. Halpern wrote: And given that these are Independent Submissions, they aren't supposed to be subject to community review. Given this fact, why is there pushback on the idea that we would prominently mark the documents to indicate that they have not been subjected to community review? It seems like the kind of thing that is of extreme relevance to the reader. /a ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
--On Monday, August 31, 2009 10:30 -0700 Bob Braden bra...@isi.edu wrote: Your argument seems to me to be the latest version of the 30-year old discussion about whether all RFCs are standards. ... Not quite 30 years, because it took us a while to start using terms like standard, and even longer to get the IETF into existence into existence. But, as part of that long argument it is worth reminding those those think that non-standards RFCs should be published in a different series that the IETF, after it was created, decided to publish its standards-track documents in the RFC Series. It isn't as if the other documents were somehow grafted on -- it is the IETF standards-track materials that were grafted on to what was previously an almost-all-independent-submissions situation (there were a few IANA and IAB documents in the series too). I know you know that, but others seem to forget, and to do so fairly regularly. The Headers Boilerplate document is supposed to help with the identification situation by explicitly identifying the streams and the role of each. If those warnings are not sufficient, it is not clear to me that boilerplate notes, of the variety that RFC 3932 has been read as calling for, will help much. ... And even documents in the IETF stream (which includes individual submission, by the way) very considerably in quality and safety. Hmm. I have a counter-proposal to those IESG members who believe in their right to include negative-sounding comments about independent submission documents without explaining the reasons for their objections (or, often, even the objections themselves) or taking responsibility for those objections by signing their names or at least putting explicit information into the tracker. The current RFC Editorial Board contains significant expertise and does review the Independent Submission documents for technical adequacy. If IESG membership is a special qualification, it is worth noting that the Editorial Board's membership includes several former ADs and even two former IETF Chairs. How about we start Editorial Board review of all IETF Stream documents arriving from the IESG and, where the Editorial Board deems it appropriate, attaches notes that reflect on the quality and/or safety of the ideas suggested. I imagine that the Editorial Board would at least be willing to be specific about objections and to sign specific notes, unlike, at times, the IESG. Let the second-guessing begin! No, not really it is a terrible idea and I can't imagine most Editorial Board members having time, but perhaps it makes the point. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Joel M. Halpern wrote: Wed try very hard to make it clear to folks that there is a difference between standards track documents and non-standards track documents. Independent Stream documents are not standards track documents. And I agree that there is an issue of the community not distinguishing among standards-track, informational, and experimental documents. But that's a separable problem that is, in my opinion, of much smaller consequence. I assert that the distinction between these classes of documents is much, much smaller than the distinction between IETF-reviewed documents and independent stream documents. Remember also that in terms of the text being a recommendation, this is not a change in practice. This is the practice we have had for more than the last 15 years. If, for Independent Submissions, it is that big a problem, I would expect ot have heard of it. Perhaps I'm just unclear on the frequency of independent submissions -- but can you find me an RFC that came from a source other than the IETF that does not include a prominent note indicating that fact? I'm under the distinct impression that historical practice tagged all (or almost all) such documents with a prominent note. The proposed procedure tries to make this an extreme exception, not the norm. /a ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
If every document needs this marking, then that is a matter for headers and boilerplates. I can understand arguing about how we mark documents. If our headers and boilerplate are not sufficient, then we should renegotiate them. I personally think that they are about as good as we can get. But the IESG review is for checking for conflicts with IETF work. It is for reporting such conflicts. It is not a general review for does the IETF like this work. Yours, Joel Adam Roach wrote: Joel M. Halpern wrote: And given that these are Independent Submissions, they aren't supposed to be subject to community review. Given this fact, why is there pushback on the idea that we would prominently mark the documents to indicate that they have not been subjected to community review? It seems like the kind of thing that is of extreme relevance to the reader. /a ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
--On Monday, August 31, 2009 13:20 -0500 Adam Roach a...@nostrum.com wrote: Joel M. Halpern wrote: And given that these are Independent Submissions, they aren't supposed to be subject to community review. Given this fact, why is there pushback on the idea that we would prominently mark the documents to indicate that they have not been subjected to community review? It seems like the kind of thing that is of extreme relevance to the reader. Because the statement this has not been subjected to community review is often factually incorrect and because there are multiple communities out there. Some of these documents are actually more intensively reviewed, by more experts, than some things the IETF puts on the standards track. If the IESG were inclined to quiz the RFC Editor as to what review had occurred and then jointly identify each document, including IETF Stream documents, with the precise type of review that had occurred, we would be having a different discussion. Headers and Boilerplates provides for some of that type of annotation without requiring any IESG notes. Alternately, if the IESG wanted to subject every Independent Submission document to IETF Last Call, review the results of that Last Call, and on that basis, sometimes generate a note and subject it to IETF Last Call, I'd have no problem at all introducing a section into Independent Submission Track RFCs containing the IETF's opinion of the document, identified as such. For lots of good reasons, I don't expect that to happen and do not consider vague text that may be false (e.g., claiming that no review within the IETF community occurred when, in fact, it might have) to be helpful in this regard. I also believe that having the IESG tell lies that can easily be tested and exposed as such does not contribute positively to the reputation of the IETF. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Ole Jacobsen wrote: This isn't something the IAOC came up with as a policy or a bluesheet replacement, it is merely a technology demonstration. If all it leads to is some DISCUSSION about what/how we might use it in the future, then it will have achieved something. oh. we'll still have the blue sheets? as a parallel exercise, it sounds dandy. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
If we really feel that the current approach does not make non-standards clear enough, then we should address that for all experimental or informational documents. It is basically unrelated to the Independent Stream issue. With regard to documents that are alternatives to existing IETF work, the RFC Editor has always required, as is appropriate for any academic work, a description of the relationship to existing work. Reviewers who know the area and work are selected. Thus, the document, in its text, is expected to explain why it is different from the standard. Which also requires it to be clear that it is different from the standard. Handling such discrepancies in the document is both clearer, more effective, and fairer to the authors than trying to solve the problem by slapping a note on the front of the document. And before someone says but the ISE is not requrie to do that, note that the ISE is required to maintain the quality of the stream. That includes ensuring that there is suitable description of the relationship to existing work. So not only is this the current practice, but it is part of what we can reasonably expect. I guess this relates to a lot of my problem with this whole mandatory IESG notes approach. If there is a real problem with the document, then the document should address the problem. If the IESG does not like the light the document puts the IETF into, then we probably made a mistake earlier, and this is not the place to fix it. And given that these are Independent Submissions, they aren't supposed to be subject to community review. Yours, Joel Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:39 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to make a judgment of whether a technical note is, or is not appropriate to be included in a document. I think the presumption should be that it is appropriate, and the authors have a way to object. While I understand the role of the ISE is somewhat different from the RFC Editor, I understand the role to be primarily editorial and we are not choosing the ISE with regard to their ability to make judgments like whether the IESG note is appropriate or not. I think it would be okay to have the note go through an IETF consensus call. +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. (...and to venture into the water under the consensus bridge part of the discussion...) Joel wrote: If I understand your note properly, your primary concern is that folks will think that Independent submission are IETF products. This is a fair concern. But the same could be said all our experimental and informational RFCs. Should we insist that all experimental and informational RFC, even from IETF WGs, carry big warnings THIS IS NOT AN IETF STANDARD. Repeated multiple times to make sure folks do not miss it? (remember, Independent Submissions are never standards track documents.) Wed try very hard to make it clear to folks that there is a difference between standards track documents and non-standards track documents. Independent Stream documents are not standards track documents. And we fail miserably in those cases too. Since I first started contributing in the IETF, I have on countless occasions had to explain to people who don't participate that some given RFC is not a standard. To most of the world, RFC==standard. Maybe putting THIS IS NOT AN IETF STANDARD all over the place would help, but I'm not sure about even that. Even worse, I have personally seen multiple instances of marketing people intentionally introducing FUD by talking about compliancy to some non standards-track RFC. (or even an ID that had been actively deprecated by the relevant working group.) Personally, I think our first mistake was using the same document name prefix for the different streams. I am most particularly concerned about the case where a draft that was presented to a work group that selected not to publish it, and then later gets published in the independent stream.___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Adam Roach wrote: While the presence of alternate streams of publication doesn't bother me, I think they need to be automatically and prominently marked as being something other than an IETF document. In particular, when a user accesses a document at a url of the form http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc.txt, there is going to be a strong presumption on their part that the document was produced by the IETF. In the cases that this presumption is incorrect, it seems tantamount to deception to tuck the distinction between IETF and non-IETF documents away in an obscure header field. /a Your argument seems to me to be the latest version of the 30-year old discussion about whether all RFCs are standards. They are not. And even documents in the IETF stream (which includes individual submission, by the way) very considerably in quality and safety. Bob Braden Jari Arkko wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. But first some background. This draft was brought to a second last call in June because several IESG members felt uncomfortable with the IESG notes being used only in exceptional circumstances. I asked Russ to prepare the -07 version. This version allowed notes to be used at the IESG's discretion and suggested that the linkage (or lack thereof) to IETF work would typically be explained in the note. This version was taken to the second last call. While the number of comments we received was small, after the last call was over I determined that the consensus was against this change. As a result, I asked Russ to prepare the -08 version. This version goes back to the exceptional wording from -06, but incorporated a number of editorial corrections that had been made in interim. I also took the draft back to the IESG telechat last week. The IESG was not extremely pleased with the new version, but my understanding is that they were willing to accept the changes. However, a new issue was brought up: one of the changes that Russ and I felt was editorial highlighted the fact that the document makes the IESG notes a recommendation to the RFC Editor, not something that would automatically always be applied to the published RFC. Some IESG members were concerned about this, and preferred the latter. And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. (For the record my own slight preference is b. But I have to say that I think the document has been ready to be shipped from version -06, and its unfortunate that we're not there yet, particularly since this document is holding up the implementation of the new headers and boilerplates system for independent submissions, IRTF submissions and IETF submissions. I will exhaust all possible means of getting this approved in the next meeting, as soon as I know what the community opinion is.) Jari Arkko ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
At 10:08 AM -0700 8/31/09, Lawrence Rosen wrote: Paul Hoffman wrote: There are probably a dozen WGs in the IETF who have had this problem come back and bite them on their collective backsides during protocol development or, unfortunately, after their protocols have deployed. Can you give examples of how providing company/organization affiliation has caused bites to the backside during protocol development/deployment? Were the bites well-deserved? Sorry, I hope that others reading my message understood it better. By this problem I meant the bit just before what you quoted: data that differs depending on the collection method. A few examples would be IDNs collected from DNS responses vs. user input, MIME headers that get fixed in various transports, IP addresses that differ depending on which side of the NAT you collect them, and so on. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Joel M. Halpern wrote: If every document needs this marking, ... If this line of discussion needs to happen, it needs to happen on a separate thread, because I believe it has nothing to do with the current text, proposal, or concern. As noted, it is opening a very old -- and I believe very different -- basic concern. The current question is about IESG Notes. We ought to restrict postings on this thread to that question. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Dave, The current question is about IESG Notes. We ought to restrict postings on this thread to that question. Yes. As always, before a draft is actually approved we appreciate getting all kinds of feedback on it. Particularly if there's a serious problem somewhere. Of course, when a Last Call period is over, we do not re-open a document lightly even if it hasn't been approved yet. However, in this case: if you have a general comment on 3932bis, please post to the Last Call thread. If you want to answer my specific question about the optional/mandatory nature of the IESG note, please respond to this thread. My current plan is NOT to reopen other aspects of the document, though I understand that some of them may have to be discussed to provide context for the specific question. Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Jari Arkko wrote: However, in this case: if you have a general comment on 3932bis, please post to the Last Call thread. If you want to answer my specific question about the optional/mandatory nature of the IESG note, please respond to this thread. So, to be clear, the question you have raised has to do with the difference between: The IESG may choose to add an IESG note to an Independent Submission... and: The IESG may choose to request the addition of an IESG note to an Independent Submission... Right? This has nothing to do with the text: In exceptional cases, when the relationship of the document to the IETF standards process might be unclear... ? /a ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
At 09:56 31-08-2009, Steve Crocker wrote: This sort of discussion is similar to other settings that are introducing electronic versions of previously manual processes, e.g. in the health care industry. Let me offer a point of view and a suggestion. [snip] Suggestion: As noted above, similar issues apply in other settings. This community has an opportunity to tackle the interplay of technology and social policy issues that affect itself far more cogently and efficiently than most communities do. Let's grasp the nettles and see if we can work through the issues in a sensible and rational way. Do we need a privacy policy regarding the information collected? If so, let's create one. Do we need access controls on the information? If so, let's create them. Do we need an ability to edit information that's been collected if it's inaccurate? If so, let's build it. Do we need more flexibility in the information stored in the record, e.g. a distinct email address for each working group? If so, let's add it. I think that the above covers the larger issue. This is not the usual IETF experiment. It is a social experiment. There was a time when the IETF was a trend-setter. We can take the view where the IETF only publishes technical specifications and it cannot influence how the technology is used. Or we can take this opportunity to understand the social impact of the technologies. We have all heard the argument it's only the 'bad' people who should have something to fear about. The bluesheet is a piece of paper which is used as an attendance sheet for Working Group sessions. It would take some work and time to aggregate the information or do data mining on it. That's one advantage (or disadvantage) of paper records. With the advent of information technology, it takes less time to aggregate information stored in digital form. The e-bluesheet system uses a tag-reader where we still have a manual process to sign (or avoid signing) the attendance sheet. The following is unrelated to the existing e-bluesheet experiment. Let's go one step further. Imagine the entire floor space criss-crossed by scanners that can pick a RFID tag automatically. That is, we can pinpoint the participants in a room or hallway and collect information about social clusters within the different areas. We could identify where the I* bodies are and who are interacting with these people. This is not your usual (Web 2.0) social network where you list your friends. It's more than that as we do not have to ask you to list your interests. We can get that information from our tracking system. We can determine who is talking to NomCom. If you want to create the above as an experiment, separate the tag IDs from the personal information about the participant. Correlate the information in real-time to show the participants what can be done and destroy the mapping immediately after the end of the meeting. I don't have to tell you not to use the Internet to publish the real-time information as you already know what will happen. We tend to use the anonymity of the crowd as a protection. That is no longer true with the technologies that are available nowadays. We can identify individuals of interest and access information about them easily. Regards, -sm ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
+1 to Dave's suggestion below regarding the name of the draft, as well as Joel's and John's responses to Jari's original question (i.e., retain existing practice regarding IESG notes). Cheers, Andy On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Dave CROCKERd...@dcrocker.net wrote: Joel M. Halpern wrote: The documented rules and practice has long been that with regard to Independent Submissions the IESG notes are a request / recommendation to the RFC Editor (soon to be ISE), not a statement of what will be included in the result. ... Based on having seen a number of IESG notes, and reading the resulting text and its inherent tone, I would strongly prefer that IESG notes be an exception. ... Thus, I strongly prefer (a). I prefer that such notes be rare, and that they remain recommendations to the ISE. +1. It might help folks to understand the independent relationship, between the IETF/IESG and these other RFC streams, if the title of this draft were changed from Handling of to Assisting with. d/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
SM wrote: I think that the above covers the larger issue. This is not the usual IETF experiment. It is a social experiment. I'm not sure what you'd call the ipv6 hour other than a social experiment... There was a time when the IETF was a trend-setter. The ietf is an organizational framework through which work is organized and documents are published. The attendees bring the ideas and do the work. We can take the view where the IETF only publishes technical specifications and it cannot influence how the technology is used. If I bring work to the IETF, it's either because I intend to benefit from it or I intend that someone else benefit from it, while there are other probably less noble intentions that are played out here I don't believe that there are many people that would dispute that proposition. Or we can take this opportunity to understand the social impact of the technologies. There's an epistemological fallacy here since the social impact can be know a posteri but can only be speculated on by those of us who live in the present. I for one am more interested some simple questions: will it work? what is the workflow like? Can it be integrated into the remote/realtime participation technologies in fashion that has some utility? ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Hi Jari, At 06:29 31-08-2009, Jari Arkko wrote: And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. I prefer option (a); the IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor. If the IESG wants the IESG Note to always be applied, it is determining the RFC Editor policy and that's the role of the IAB according to Section 5. Regards, -sm ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [PART-II] Gen-ART LC and Telechat Review of draft-ietf-mext-binding-revocation-10
Hi, Ben, Sorry for the late reply, hope to close on all comments; please see inline. -Original Message- [...] [PART-II] Nits/editorial comments: -- General: I understand that, and I hope I didn't come off too critical. I know that it is very hard to make a draft that is both readable and correct, particularly when you have so many use cases that require different application behavior. [Ahmad] Not at all. I thank you much for the thorough review and comments! -- Same paragraph, last sentence: Do you mean user or mobile node? [Ahmad] I meant the user, because if the reason, administrative, then it probably requires the user intervention. Interesting. I assume there are cases where a typical mobile node would just quietly reestablish the binding. I gather you expect cases where it can't do so without some (possibly reconfiguration) effort on the user's part, right? It's worth thinking about whether there is some guidance you can give to implementors here. (I'm not sure there is--just something to think about.) [Ahmad] Probably we can allow it to be applicable to the user and mobile node. What about if we just state This mechanism enables the user or the mobile node to react .. -- S3.4.1, first paragraph, first sentence: Unclear sentence: What is doing the hosting? The LMA, the MAG, or the BRI message? I think you mean the MAG, but the sentence structure is ambiguous. [Ahmad] What about the following? The local mobility anchor may send a Binding Revocation Indication message with the appropriate revocation trigger value to the mobile access gateway which hosts a specific PMIPv6 binding to indicate that the mobile node binding has been terminated and the mobile access gateway can clean up the applicable resources. s/which/that, but otherwise I think it works. [Ahmad] Ok. -S 7.1, first paragraph: node, initiator, constructs Confusing sentence structure. Is initiator a name for the sending mobility node? If so, it would help to use it later [Ahmad] Sure. Will remove it. Actually, I meant to propose you keep it, so that you could simplify later sentences. For example, you could substitute The initiatior for The mobility node that sends a Binding Revocation Indication message. [Ahmad] Ok. (the next paragraph uses the same structure again.) -- 2nd paragraph: In the BRI message, the initiator MUST set the Sequence Number field to the next sequence number available for Binding Revocation Does this conflict with the section 6.1 statement that it could be random [Ahmad] I do not see a conflict with sec 6.1. If the sequence random is set using a random generator, then the next sequence number is random too. I think there is some danger that an implementor will be confused by the words sequence and next for something that is not necessarily sequential. I gather you don't care how the implementation selects this number as long as there are no collisions, right? [Ahmad] Yes. It might be helpful to have a sentence or two that say that--as it could be random doesn't fully explain that you expect this to be local policy. [Ahmad] Sure. More importantly, this implies a requirement that the responder MUST NOT attempt to infer meaning from the sequence numbers--for example, out-of-sequence numbers are meaningless. [Ahmad] True. The use of the sequence number is to enable the initiator to match the BRA with the outstanding associated BRI. Since the chance of having more than one outstanding BRI, we MUST make sure that there is no collision. Also, if an implementation chose to use sequential values, does it have to worry about rollovers? [Ahmad] No. Does the potential guess-ability of a sequence number have security implications? [Ahmad] Not at all. Packet must pass IPsec authentication first. -- Same Paragraph: Since sending Binding Revocation Indication message is not done on a regular basis, a 16 bit sequence number field is large enough to allow the initiator to match the Binding Revocation Acknowledgement to the outstanding Binding Revocation Indication with Acknowledge (A) bit set using the sequence number field only. Sentence is hard to follow. I suggest separating the idea that you can match BRAs to BRIs with a 16 bit sequence number from the idea that you only get a BRA if the BRI had it's A bit set. [Ahmad] Sure. What about the following: Since sending Binding Revocation Indication message is not done on a regular basis, a 16 bit sequence number field is large enough to allow the initiator to match the Binding Revocation Acknowledgement to its outstanding Binding Revocation Indication that had the Acknowledge (A) bit set. Actually, I think the point would be clearer if you dropped the part about the A bit
RE: [PART-I] Gen-ART LC and Telechat Review of draft-ietf-mext-binding-revocation-10
Hi Ben, Will address and comment on open ones. Please see inline. Regards, Ahmad -Original Message- Subject: Re: [PART-I] Gen-ART LC and Telechat Review of draft-ietf-mext-binding-revocation-10 Hi Ahmad, Let me comment on the security issues at a high level up front, since I think I can tie together responses to several of your comments below. More specific comments imbedded: I think the email from Jari helped clarify things for me to a point that I can make my concerns a little more precise. You clarify further down that mobile nodes are _never_ allowed to revoke bindings that weren't associated with them in the first place. This actually addresses a lot of my concerns, and I think it is fundamental enough to be reiterated in the SecCons section. [Ahmad] Sure, we can make that clear. I still have concerns about the use of IPSec, though, as without IPSec of some other form of authentication, an attacker could conceivably impersonate the node that bindings were associated with. This is particularly bothersome in use cases that allow a node to revoke bindings without having to know the details of each individual binding, such as the G-bit, or an included NAI of the form @example.com. I'm not saying that this draft needs to make IPSec into a MUST. [Ahmad] If it comes to me, I am comfortably fine with that:) But it is appropriate for it to point out that if you _don't_ use it, bad things could happen. (See my comment on that point further down.) It may be that using MIPv6 without IPSec is just as bad without BRI as with it--in which case it's fair to say that any attacks enabled by not using IPSec with BRI are no worse than using the base technologies without BRI. (Such statements are easier to believe with some discussion to support them, though :-) ) [Ahmad] When IPsec is used, the only issue that we identified that needs special attention was the Global Revocation with Revocation Trigger value Per-Peer Policy when sent from the MAG [because it deletes all sessions between the two peers]. Although, some people still disagreed that there is no great risk in there and no special treatment should take place. At any rate, since this message coming from a peer in the visited network, we wanted the home network to have the upper hand and be able to give specific privileges to peers in the different visited networks, i.e., MAGs. What this means? the ability to establish an IPsec SA between the MAG and the LMA does not give the MAG the automatic privilege to use Global Revocation with Revocation Trigger value of per-Peer Policy. That why we required authorization. More inline: On Aug 27, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Ahmad Muhanna wrote: Hi, Ben, -Original Message- Summary: This draft is on the right track, but there are open issues. Additionally, I have a number of editorial comments. Major issues: -- I think the security considerations need quite a bit of work. In particular, there is very little guidance on authorization for sending BRI messages. This seem to me have utility for DoS attacks, particularly with the G bit set. There is mention of reusing existing security associations if IPSec is used--but no mention of what to do if IPSec is not used. [Ahmad] Binding Revocation is used between two peers to revoke/terminate a mobility session(s) that have been created using an IPv6 mobility protocol signaling (Client Mobile IPv6 or Proxy MIP6). RFC3775 and RFC5213, which are the main protocols targeted by this specification, specify that IPsec SHOULD be used. On the other hand, there is NO other standard track specification which specify other security mechanisms to secure the IPv6 mobility signaling. Therefore, Binding Revocation specification assumes the use of whatever security mechanism that currently available to secure the IPv6 mobility signaling. I think there are still a couple of issues here. First, Since the underlying RFCs only specify IPSec at SHOULD strength, this draft needs to discuss the consequences of not using it for BRI. Depending on those consequences, it might be enough to just warn implementors that, if you don't use IPSec, certain bad things can happen. [Ahmad] It is NOT expected that BRI/BRA will use a different security mechanism than what is being used for securing IPv6 mobility signaling. Therefore, in order to alert implementors of the danger if IPsec is NOT used, IMO, that needs to be discussed in related IPv6 mobility specifications, e.g., RFC3775 and RFC5213, which is already there. On the other hand, it is very difficult to anticipate the criteria of other security mechanisms that would possibly be used in the future to secure IPv6 mobility signaling and consequently BRI/BRA. Sure--but it's appropriate for the BRI spec to say If BRI is used without IPSec,
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
--On Monday, August 31, 2009 16:29 +0300 Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: I would like to get some further input from the community on this draft. ... And now back to the input that I wanted to hear. I would like to get a sense from the list whether you prefer (a) that any exceptional IESG note is just a recommendation to the RFC Editor or (b) something that is always applied to the published RFC. Please reply before the next IESG meeting on September 10. Some e-mails on this topic have already been sent in the Last Call thread -- I have seen those and there is no need to resend. Jari, I've said this before, but not during the recent Last Call, so, to get a note on the record... Any IESG note or comment, exceptional or otherwise, has always (always == since the IESG was created and long before it started writing notes) been an recommendation to the RFC Editor. That position is reflected in long-term precedent, in RFC 4844, and in the new RFC Editor Model document. Under the new model, should the RFC Editor decide to not accept a proposed IESG note, the IESG can raise the issue with the RSE and, if necessary, with the IAB, presumably causing a wider community review of the proposed note itself. That level of protection (which goes beyond that historically available) should be both necessary and sufficient for the IESG's purposes. Procedurally, should the IESG wish to change that position, I believe it would require the approval of the IAB (because it changes the RFC Editor role and relationship) and a review of the Headers and Boilerplates document, the RFC Editor Model document, and perhaps some of the statements of work associated with the new RFC Editor contracts and appointments. I have reason to believe that the IAB would insist on community review before granting such approval, so trying to change things in this area at this late date is not consistent with rapid progress and may be inconsistent with having a fully-functional RFC Editor function in place at the beginning of January. More broadly, as the community has discussed extensively, the IESG should not have the right to deprecate or denigrate the contents of any document from another stream without broad community consensus. Nothing in any community-approved IETF procedural document from RFC 2026 forward gives the IESG such authority (or authority for doing much of anything else other than steering/managing) without community approval and consensus. Even the claim in the original version of 3932 that a document has not been reviewed in the IETF is inappropriate unless such review has actually not occurred (whether or not consensus was reached). So I believe that your clarifying change was, in fact, editorial and that it should remain. ... regards, john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
I agree with Steve that we should look at the issues that arise, then deal with each in turn. Let me say up front that I am sure our hosts are offering this technology demo with an honorable intent, so we should in turn have a respectful discussion of the issues. I suspect the announced placement and handling of readers will have a significant impact on the participation rate. I was a speaker at an event a few years back that used an rfid reader system, where the readers tracked entry and exit times from each meeting room, as well as harvesting the badge proximity sensors which tracked each other and relative position in the building. I am not suggesting the offered demo has these capabilities, just noting that they do exist. While the announced functionality of the old non-IETF demo was to act as an e-business card for information sharing between the participants, as well as verification of payment for access to each session, the organizer had a much different data mining intent which was clear to those who knew of his other sleazy dealings. Somehow my reader was always forgotten in my room, but since I was a speaker they had to let me in anyway. At the end of the day, knowing the distance between people along with the period of time and where in the facility they were provides a lot of information to people with nefarious intent. Clearly from the discussion about aiding remote participation there is an intent to have a reader at each mic, and something related to the bluesheet clipboard. If it is clear that those are the only readers, and the badges don't track each other there is likely to be a higher level of participation than there would be for an unstated set, or a full mesh tracking system. One issue that comes to mind is the distance between the reader and badge for this to work. Physical contact or a swipe would make the mic line awkward and highlight who was participating and not, while anything more than about 25cm would unintentionally register the person who stepped in the door to look for someone just as the clipboard passed by. I don't know how much control they have over reader sensitivity, but the placement issue should be resolved and announced well in advance of the meeting. As far as data retention policy, I would suggest that the only data associated directly with the tag be the name, then use an out-of-band means to allow each person to provide whatever other information they are willing to share, including email aliases for each working group. If one use is bluesheet emulation, then the backend can do the correlation to create the logical equivalent. If another use is real-time mic announcement, the data associated with that should be destroyed as soon as the wg minute taker has published. I am sure other functionality is possible, but each should be considered in terms of data retention and possible misuse when the access controls break down (as they will at some point). Tony Steve Crocker wrote: I won't be in Hiroshima and won't be able to participate nor will I be able to opt-out, so I don't have a personal stake in this and am commenting only as an interested observer. As has been noted, this won't be an absolutely clean, seamless replacement of the blue sheets. The list of possible downsides is already growing, e.g. privacy issues, inflexibility in choosing which email address to use for each working group, and I won't be surprised if the list grows a bit. At the same time, the list of possible new capabilities is also growing, e.g. identifying the speaking at the microphone. This sort of discussion is similar to other settings that are introducing electronic versions of previously manual processes, e.g. in the health care industry. Let me offer a point of view and a suggestion. Point of view: Rather than thinking of the RFID chips as serving to be simply a direct replacement of the blue sheets, take as a given that this will be a new and somewhat different technical foundation with some positives and some negatives. The blue sheets also had positives and negatives, e.g. the cost and pain of storing them, the difficulty and cost of reading them, their legal status and retention policy, etc. Look at the RFID chips from a fresh perspective, not solely as an automation of the blue sheets. Suggestion: As noted above, similar issues apply in other settings. This community has an opportunity to tackle the interplay of technology and social policy issues that affect itself far more cogently and efficiently than most communities do. Let's grasp the nettles and see if we can work through the issues in a sensible and rational way. Do we need a privacy policy regarding the information collected? If so, let's create one. Do we need access controls on the information? If so, let's create them. Do we need an ability to edit information that's been collected if it's inaccurate? If so, let's build it. Do we need more flexibility in
Nomcom 2009-10: Reminder Call for Nominations, Local Office hours, Nominee Questionnaires available
Hi all, This email covers 3 topics: 1) Reminder: Call for Nominations 2) New: Local Office Hours 3) New: Questionnaires available for nominees Best Regards, Mary Barnes nomcom-ch...@ietf.org mary.h.bar...@gmail.com mary.bar...@nortel.com === 1) Call for Nominations The nomination period ends in less than 3 weeks on Sept. 18th, 2009. We appreciate the folks that have taken the time to make nominations thus far. But, we do need more nominations. Please use the online tool to nominate - it's easy and secure: https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/nominate Details on the open positions, as well as other details and options for making nominations are available on the Nomcom homepage: https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/ Please consider that the sooner you make the nominations, the more time your nominee(s) will have to complete the necessary questionnaire (item 3 below). As well, please consider nominating more than one person for a particular position. You will have the opportunity to provide additional feedback later and it's important to consider that not all nominees will be able to accept the nomination. 2) Local office hours --- In order to facilitate additional feedback, the Nomcom is planning to make themselves available for office areas at various geographic locations for 3 weeks in September, starting on the 8th. Below please find the list of locations where Nomcom members will be available for these f2f meetings . Unless dates are identified below, the Nomcom member is generally available for part of the day during the weeks of Sept 8-11, Sept 14-18 and Sept 21-25. Also, languages other than English in which the Nomcom member is fluent are identfied. Please contact a Nomcom member in a specific geographic location to arrange a convenient meeting time and place. Most Nomcom members are flexible as to meeting locations - i.e., we can travel to your office, meet at our offices or somewhere in between. As a reminder folks can always contact any Nomcom member to provide feedback at anytime - i.e., you don't need to participate in these f2f sessions to provide feedback. Belgium: Dimitri Papadimitriou - dimitri.papadimitr...@alcatel-lucent.be (Sept 21-25) (Languages: French) Boston, Mass, USA: Stephen Kent - k...@bbn.com (Sept 16-18) Boulder, CO, USA: Wassim Haddad - wmhad...@gmail.com (Sept 14-18) Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX, USA: Mary Barnes - mary.h.bar...@gmail.com Lucy Yong - lucyy...@huawei.com (Languages: Chinese) Helsinki, Finland: Simo Veikkolainen - simo.veikkolai...@nokia.com (Languages: Finnish) Ithaca, NY, USA: Scott Brim - scott.b...@gmail.com Montevideo, Uruguay: Roque Gagliano - ro...@lacnic.net (Sept 14-18, 21-25) (Languages: Spanish, Portuguese) Montreal, Quebec, Canada Wassim Haddad - wmhad...@gmail.com (Sept 8-11) -- Can also be available in Ottawa if folks are interested Paris, France: Dimitri Papadimitriou - dimitri.papadimitr...@alcatel-lucent.be (Sept 15-18) (Languages: French) San Diego, CA, USA: Randall Gellens - rg+i...@qualcomm.com Dave Crocker - dcroc...@bbiw.net (Sept 16-18) Silicon Valley/SF Bay, CA, USA: Dave Crocker - dcroc...@bbiw.net (Sept 8-11, Sept 14-15, Sept 21-25) Dorothy Gellert - dorothy.gell...@gmail.com 3) Questionnaires available for nominees: For folks that have been notified that they have been nominated for any of the positions, the questionnaires are now available on the Nomcom09 tools website: https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/iab-questionnaire https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/iaoc-questionnaire https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/iesg-questionnaire If you have any questions, please let me know. I will be contacting everyone individually, as well as sending reminders before the deadline. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
New major release of NroffEdit
For your information: A new major release of NroffEdit is available from: http://aaa-sec.com/nroffedit/index.html This version provides several features requested by the RFC editor as well as other IETF:ers. This includes: - Added background spellchecker - Color and style formats added to Nroff editing - Added support for the .tl directive for both nroff-text and text- nroff conversion - Added search and replace feature - Function for updating all issue and expiration dates /Stefan ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
On 2009-09-01 05:56, Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:39 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to make a judgment of whether a technical note is, or is not appropriate to be included in a document. I think the presumption should be that it is appropriate, and the authors have a way to object. While I understand the role of the ISE is somewhat different from the RFC Editor, I understand the role to be primarily editorial and we are not choosing the ISE with regard to their ability to make judgments like whether the IESG note is appropriate or not. I think it would be okay to have the note go through an IETF consensus call. +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: New major release of NroffEdit
Resending as original mail got lost. Sorry for double posing in case it turns up... On 09-08-31 7:21 PM, Stefan Santesson ste...@aaa-sec.com wrote: For your information: A new major release of NroffEdit is available from: http://aaa-sec.com/nroffedit/index.html This version provides several features requested by the RFC editor as well as other IETF:ers. This includes: - Added background spellchecker - Color and style formats added to Nroff editing - Added support for the .tl directive for both nroff-text and text- nroff conversion - Added search and replace feature - Function for updating all issue and expiration dates /Stefan ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Joel, I agree that IESG notes should be rare, but primarily because independent stream submissions should be rare :-). Long ago, when I served on the IAB, we grappled with this problem, and failed to find a good solution. Despite what we say about RFC status and origin markings, the public sees RFCs as carrying the imprimatur of the IETF (not just that of the RFC Editor). When Jon Postel was the RFC editor, we were pretty comfortable with his judgement on these matters, this was less of an issue. However, time have changed and I would be happy to see inclusion of an IESG note be mandatory, contrary to historical practice. Steve ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
On Aug 31, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: On 2009-09-01 05:56, Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:39 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to make a judgment of whether a technical note is, or is not appropriate to be included in a document. I think the presumption should be that it is appropriate, and the authors have a way to object. While I understand the role of the ISE is somewhat different from the RFC Editor, I understand the role to be primarily editorial and we are not choosing the ISE with regard to their ability to make judgments like whether the IESG note is appropriate or not. I think it would be okay to have the note go through an IETF consensus call. +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. Can't the IETF can have a consensus that a non-IETF document relates to other IETF work in some way? In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. How would you expect the RFC editor to evaluate such a request? Under what circumstances would it be reasonable to refuse to include it? Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
On 2009-09-01 13:14, Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: On 2009-09-01 05:56, Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:39 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: Yes, I understand, this only applies to the Independent Submission stream. We ask the IESG to review these documents, and that review is technical. I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to make a judgment of whether a technical note is, or is not appropriate to be included in a document. I think the presumption should be that it is appropriate, and the authors have a way to object. While I understand the role of the ISE is somewhat different from the RFC Editor, I understand the role to be primarily editorial and we are not choosing the ISE with regard to their ability to make judgments like whether the IESG note is appropriate or not. I think it would be okay to have the note go through an IETF consensus call. +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. Can't the IETF can have a consensus that a non-IETF document relates to other IETF work in some way? Well, yes, but that's a decision we have historically chosen to trust the IESG to take. I see no evidence that that has been a problem, and I didn't think Jari was reopening that aspect. In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. How would you expect the RFC editor to evaluate such a request? Under what circumstances would it be reasonable to refuse to include it? Well, in the future it will be the Independent Series Editor. I would expect him/her to take such a decision just like an academic journal editor would decide how to deal with a critical review. I'd expect that in the large majority of cases, the ISE would agree to the request, and would only consider refusing it if he/she concluded that the IESG was showing unreasonable bias. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: [...] +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. Can't the IETF can have a consensus that a non-IETF document relates to other IETF work in some way? Well, yes, but that's a decision we have historically chosen to trust the IESG to take. I see no evidence that that has been a problem, and I didn't think Jari was reopening that aspect. Ah, sorry, I was agreeing with Brian Rosen statement that a concensus call was okay. I didn't mean (and I doubt he did, but he can speak for himself) that I think we _needed_ one, only that if that were the only way we could make an IESG request binding, then it was okay. If we feel we can trust the IESG on this, I'm okay with it :-) In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. How would you expect the RFC editor to evaluate such a request? Under what circumstances would it be reasonable to refuse to include it? Well, in the future it will be the Independent Series Editor. I would expect him/her to take such a decision just like an academic journal editor would decide how to deal with a critical review. I'd expect that in the large majority of cases, the ISE would agree to the request, and would only consider refusing it if he/she concluded that the IESG was showing unreasonable bias. I assume an ISE could also who bias. It seems to me this all converges on deciding who has to appeal in a dispute. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
Making the IESG note mandatory, even if that required IETF agreement, would essentially give the IETf veto over the Independent stream. The IESG would simply propose a note so extreme that no author would accept it on their document. Given that I have seen proposed notes almost that bad in the past, I see no reason to believe it will not happen in the future. Unless we wish to gut the Independent Stream of its right and important role of providing critical review of ongoing ideas, I would strongly recommend that the IAB not accept any procedure by which this would occur. Remember, the IETF did not create the Independent Stream. It arguably predates the existence of standards track documents. Yours, Joel Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: [...] +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. Can't the IETF can have a consensus that a non-IETF document relates to other IETF work in some way? Well, yes, but that's a decision we have historically chosen to trust the IESG to take. I see no evidence that that has been a problem, and I didn't think Jari was reopening that aspect. Ah, sorry, I was agreeing with Brian Rosen statement that a concensus call was okay. I didn't mean (and I doubt he did, but he can speak for himself) that I think we _needed_ one, only that if that were the only way we could make an IESG request binding, then it was okay. If we feel we can trust the IESG on this, I'm okay with it :-) In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. How would you expect the RFC editor to evaluate such a request? Under what circumstances would it be reasonable to refuse to include it? Well, in the future it will be the Independent Series Editor. I would expect him/her to take such a decision just like an academic journal editor would decide how to deal with a critical review. I'd expect that in the large majority of cases, the ISE would agree to the request, and would only consider refusing it if he/she concluded that the IESG was showing unreasonable bias. I assume an ISE could also who bias. It seems to me this all converges on deciding who has to appeal in a dispute. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: Making the IESG note mandatory, even if that required IETF agreement, would essentially give the IETf veto over the Independent stream. The IESG would simply propose a note so extreme that no author would accept it on their document. Given that I have seen proposed notes almost that bad in the past, I see no reason to believe it will not happen in the future. Unless we wish to gut the Independent Stream of its right and important role of providing critical review of ongoing ideas, I would strongly recommend that the IAB not accept any procedure by which this would occur. Remember, the IETF did not create the Independent Stream. It arguably predates the existence of standards track documents. So can the mandate be scoped? It seems like a little word smithing could distinguish between notes to clarify relationship with standards work vs commentary on the quality of the work. Yours, Joel Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: [...] +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. Can't the IETF can have a consensus that a non-IETF document relates to other IETF work in some way? Well, yes, but that's a decision we have historically chosen to trust the IESG to take. I see no evidence that that has been a problem, and I didn't think Jari was reopening that aspect. Ah, sorry, I was agreeing with Brian Rosen statement that a concensus call was okay. I didn't mean (and I doubt he did, but he can speak for himself) that I think we _needed_ one, only that if that were the only way we could make an IESG request binding, then it was okay. If we feel we can trust the IESG on this, I'm okay with it :-) In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. How would you expect the RFC editor to evaluate such a request? Under what circumstances would it be reasonable to refuse to include it? Well, in the future it will be the Independent Series Editor. I would expect him/her to take such a decision just like an academic journal editor would decide how to deal with a critical review. I'd expect that in the large majority of cases, the ISE would agree to the request, and would only consider refusing it if he/she concluded that the IESG was showing unreasonable bias. I assume an ISE could also who bias. It seems to me this all converges on deciding who has to appeal in a dispute. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: draft-housley-iesg-rfc3932bis and the optional/mandatory nature of IESG notes
The scope already says that the IESG is only supposed to comment on the relationship to existing work. When the comments are on that topic, there has rarely been an issue. (The one related difficulty is when the IESG has asked for reasonable delays, to let a working group get its product out, and then the WG has taken much longer than expected to deliver.) However, even then the editor has needed to edit the words provided. Of course, such editing has to be negotiated with the IESG. (The edit can edit, but he can't put words in someone elses mouth.) Part of the problem I face is that there is significant evidence that the IESG has unintentionally produced very biased and inappropriate text. The ISE (RSE) needs to have a strong position from which to discuss such things. I will grant that an unreasonable ISE can do unreasonable things. There is no history of difficulties in the converse. If the ISE / RSE is unreasonable, the IAB will slap the editor and say stop doing that. There is no equivalent process if we reverse the structure. Yours, Joel M. Halpern Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: Making the IESG note mandatory, even if that required IETF agreement, would essentially give the IETf veto over the Independent stream. The IESG would simply propose a note so extreme that no author would accept it on their document. Given that I have seen proposed notes almost that bad in the past, I see no reason to believe it will not happen in the future. Unless we wish to gut the Independent Stream of its right and important role of providing critical review of ongoing ideas, I would strongly recommend that the IAB not accept any procedure by which this would occur. Remember, the IETF did not create the Independent Stream. It arguably predates the existence of standards track documents. So can the mandate be scoped? It seems like a little word smithing could distinguish between notes to clarify relationship with standards work vs commentary on the quality of the work. Yours, Joel Ben Campbell wrote: On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: [...] +1 , including the IETF consensus call part. I don't understand how IETF consensus is relevant to a non-IETF document. Can't the IETF can have a consensus that a non-IETF document relates to other IETF work in some way? Well, yes, but that's a decision we have historically chosen to trust the IESG to take. I see no evidence that that has been a problem, and I didn't think Jari was reopening that aspect. Ah, sorry, I was agreeing with Brian Rosen statement that a concensus call was okay. I didn't mean (and I doubt he did, but he can speak for himself) that I think we _needed_ one, only that if that were the only way we could make an IESG request binding, then it was okay. If we feel we can trust the IESG on this, I'm okay with it :-) In fact the answer to Jari's question appears to be a matter of logic, not of opinion. The IESG, which acts for the IETF, logically cannot determine anything about the contents of a non-IETF document. So the inclusion of an IESG note can only be a request. How would you expect the RFC editor to evaluate such a request? Under what circumstances would it be reasonable to refuse to include it? Well, in the future it will be the Independent Series Editor. I would expect him/her to take such a decision just like an academic journal editor would decide how to deal with a critical review. I'd expect that in the large majority of cases, the ISE would agree to the request, and would only consider refusing it if he/she concluded that the IESG was showing unreasonable bias. I assume an ISE could also who bias. It seems to me this all converges on deciding who has to appeal in a dispute. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Lawrence Rosen lrosen at rosenlaw dot com wrote: Please note that you are now also collecting information that *is not* on the current blue sheets, namely company/organization affiliation. I thought that was the problem to which you were alluding. And my question remains: Is there any evidence that participants in IETF should not provide their company/organization affiliation when they participate? Is there something to hide? Speaking only as an RFC author and WG participant, not as an IETF conference attendee, either in the past or in the foreseeable future... I declined to state either my previous or current employer as my affiliation for either RFC 4645 or draft-4645bis, and instead listed myself as Consultant, for two reasons: (1) neither employer has ever provided any support for my activities in the LTRU WG, and (2) a certain particularly ill-willed participant in LTRU had already used another participant's affiliation against him, writing to the legal department of that person's employer and demanding that he be professionally disciplined, something I didn't feel like risking for myself. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Important Information about IETF 76 Meeting Registration
Good grief. Before we do anything specific depending on the RFID tags, we'd like to know whether they are useful for the stated purpose. If they don't give us the information we need (if they can't be relied on to be read correctly by the RFID reader, which records the RFID tag, which can later be associated with a database entry containing the information you gave when you registered), they can't replace the blue sheets or do anything else that is useful. If they are functional, we can go on to rehash a discussion that has happened on this list many times - replace the blue sheet, or do other things with it. We're not selling your souls. We're not taking pictures of you with a view to putting you under a spell. We're not selling your passport data to witch doctors. We're not doing a whole long list of things. We're seeing if the RFID system in question works. Nothing more, nothing less. And BTW, the blue sheet gave a key (your email address) that could be associated with the information you gave when you registered, or could be looked up in google to find other interesting things about you. Chill Out. Go ahead and opt out. PLEASE opt out if you you can't deal with technology that might change - as all IETF technology does over time. Leave Alexa out of this. On Aug 31, 2009, at 2:15 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:06:31AM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer bortzme...@nic.fr wrote a message of 17 lines which said: Any statement somewhere explaining what will be done with the data? Since you talk about electronic blue sheets, I assume there will be many sensors, at least one per room so, in theory, the readers may be able to gather a lot of data about attendees. OK, the complete lack of answer is in itself a good indication. I will opt out. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Last Call: draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-resumption (IKEv2 Session Resumption) to Proposed Standard
The IESG has received a request from the IP Security Maintenance and Extensions WG (ipsecme) to consider the following document: - 'IKEv2 Session Resumption ' draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-resumption-07.txt as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the i...@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-09-14. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to i...@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-resumption-07.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_iddTag=17990rfc_flag=0 ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Protocol Action: 'Definitions of Managed Objects for Mapping SYSLOG Messages to Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Notifications' to Proposed Standard
The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Definitions of Managed Objects for Mapping SYSLOG Messages to Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Notifications ' draft-ietf-opsawg-syslog-msg-mib-06.txt as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Operations and Management Area Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Dan Romascanu and Ron Bonica. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-opsawg-syslog-msg-mib-06.txt Technical Summary This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it defines a mapping of SYSLOG messages to Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) notifications. Working Group Summary There was consensus in the working group to publish these documents. Document Quality SNMP and SYSLOG are widely used and deployed. The document was reviewed in the Working Group and by MIB DOctors. Personnel Scott Bradner is the Document Shepherd. Dan Romascanu is the Responsible Area Director. ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Protocol Action: 'Mapping Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Notifications to SYSLOG Messages' to Proposed Standard
The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Mapping Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Notifications to SYSLOG Messages ' draft-ietf-opsawg-syslog-snmp-05.txt as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Operations and Management Area Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Dan Romascanu and Ron Bonica. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-opsawg-syslog-snmp-05.txt Technical Summary This memo defines a mapping from Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) notifications to SYSLOG messages. Working Group Summary There was consensus in the working group to publish this document. Document Quality SYSLOG and SNMP are widely implemented and deployed. The document was reviewed in the Working Group and by the MIB DOctors. Personnel Scott Bradner is the Document Shepherd. Dan Romascanu is the Responsible Area Director. ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Last Call: draft-ietf-calsify-2446bis (iCalendar Transport-Independent Interoperability Protocol (iTIP)) to Proposed Standard
The IESG has received a request from the Calendaring and Scheduling Standards Simplification WG (calsify) to consider the following document: - 'iCalendar Transport-Independent Interoperability Protocol (iTIP) ' draft-ietf-calsify-2446bis-09.txt as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the i...@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-09-14. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to i...@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsify-2446bis-09.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_iddTag=13952rfc_flag=0 ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Protocol Action: 'Elliptic-Curve Algorithm Integration in the Secure Shell Transport Layer' to Proposed Standard
The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Elliptic-Curve Algorithm Integration in the Secure Shell Transport Layer ' draft-green-secsh-ecc-09.txt as a Proposed Standard This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an IETF Working Group. The IESG contact person is Tim Polk. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-green-secsh-ecc-09.txt Technical Summary This document describes algorithms based on Elliptic Curve Cryptography (ECC) for use within the Secure Shell (SSH) transport protocol. In particular, it specifies: Elliptic Curve Diffie-Hellman (ECDH) key agreement, Elliptic Curve Menezes-Qu-Vanstone (ECMQV) key agreement and Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm (ECDSA) for use in the SSH Transport Layer protocol. Working Group Summary This document is the result an individual submission by members of the community interested in seeing support for use of ECC algorithms in the SSH protocol. While there is no active working group behind this work, it was extensively reviewed and discussed on the ietf-ssh mailing list, which was the home of the Secure Shell Working Group before that group concluded and still counts many of the participants of that working group among its members. Document Quality While there are no existing implementations of this protocol, there has been indication of interest from SSH implementors. Personnel The document shepherd for this document is Jeffrey Hutzelman The responsible Area Director is Tim Polk. RFC Editor Note Section 12.1 Please remove the URL from the reference [FIPS-180-3]. Section 12.2 Please remove the URLs from references [NIST-800-57] and [NIST-CURVES]. ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Protocol Action: 'Alarms in SYSLOG' to Proposed Standard
The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Alarms in SYSLOG ' draft-ietf-opsawg-syslog-alarm-02.txt as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Operations and Management Area Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Dan Romascanu and Ron Bonica. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-opsawg-syslog-alarm-02.txt Technical Summary This document describes how to send alarm information in syslog. It includes the mapping of ITU perceived severities onto syslog message fields and a number of alarm-specific SD-PARAM definitions from X.733 and the IETF Alarm MIB. Working Group Summary The document was revised based on WG feedback the result meets the issues that were raised. Document Quality SYSLOG is widely implemented and deployed, and the ITU severities are used by a number of protocols and alarm models including the IETF Alarm MIB. Personnel Scott Bradner is the Document Shepherd for this document. Dan Romascanu is the Responsible Area Director. RFC Editor Note Please insert the following edits in the published version: 1. In section 1, Old:Alarm related terminology is defined in [RFC3877]. New:Alarm related terminology is defined in [RFC3877]. SD-ID, SD-PARM and other syslog related terms are defined in [RFC5424] 2. In section 3 Old: the SD-PARARMS are mandatory. New: the SD-PARAMS are mandatory. 3. In section 3.6 Old: [RFC1738] and its updates. In the case of an SNMP resource, the New: [RFC3986] and its updates. In the case of an SNMP resource, the 4. In section 4 Old: In this example, extended from [Syslog], the VERSION is 1 and the New: In this example, extended from [RFC5424], the VERSION is 1 and the OLD: 'APP-NAME is su' NEW: 'APP-NAME is evntslog' OLD: 'examples...@0' NEW: 'examples...@32473' OLD: 'resourceURI =' NEW: 'resourceURI=' 5. In section 6 Old: IANA is requested to register the SD-IDs New: IANA is requested to register the syslog Structured Data ID Values 6. In section 8.1 Old:[RFC1738] Berners-Lee, T., Masinter, L., and M. McCahill, Uniform Resource Locators (URL), RFC 1738, December 1994. New:[RFC3986] Berners-Lee, T., Fielding, R., and Masinter, L., Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax, RFC RFC3986, January 2005. 7. In Section 3.1: OLD: If the alarm SD-ID is supported, the resource SD-PARAM MUST be supported. NEW: If the alarm SD-ID is included, the resource SD-PARAM MUST be included. 8. In Section 3.2: OLD: If the alarm SD-ID is supported, the probableCause SD-PARAM MUST be supported. NEW: If the alarm SD-ID is included, the probableCause SD-PARAM MUST be included. 9. In Section 3.3: OLD: If the alarm SD-ID is supported, the perceivedSeverity SD-PARAM MUST be supported. NEW: If the alarm SD-ID is included, the perceivedSeverity SD-PARAM MUST be included. 10. In Section 3.4: OLD: If the alarm SD-ID is supported, the eventType SD-PARAM SHOULD be supported. NEW: If the alarm SD-ID is included, the eventType SD-PARAM SHOULD be included. 11. In Section 3.5: OLD: If the alarm SD-ID is supported, the trendIndication SD-PARAM SHOULD be supported. NEW: If the alarm SD-ID is included, the trendIndication SD-PARAM SHOULD be included. 12. In Section 3.6: OLD: If the alarm SD-ID is supported, the resourceURI SD-PARAM SHOULD be supported. NEW: If the alarm SD-ID is included, the resourceURI SD-PARAM SHOULD be included. ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Protocol Action: 'Extended MKCOL for WebDAV' to Proposed Standard
The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Extended MKCOL for WebDAV ' draft-ietf-vcarddav-webdav-mkcol-06.txt as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the vCard and CardDAV Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Lisa Dusseault. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-vcarddav-webdav-mkcol-06.txt Technical Summary This specification extends the Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) MKCOL method to allow collections of arbitrary resourcetype to be created and to allow properties to be set at the same time. It avoids minting new MK* methods (such as MKCALENDAR) for each new type of collection. Working Group Summary Process was smooth; the only early disagreement was about the scope of this document (whether it should apply to non-collection resources as well, and whether it should also setting ACLs). In the end, the WG converged on the minimal functionality needed to resolve the issue. Document Quality This protocol extension defined in this document is used by the VCARDDAV protocol (another deliverable of the Working Group), for which several vendors have announced support (for instance, Apple, and Viagenie). Personnel The Document Shepherd for this document was Julian Reschke, and the responsible Area Director is Alexey Melnikov. ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
IETF 76 - Registration Now Open
76th IETF Meeting Hiroshima, Japan November 8-13, 2009 Host: WIDE Registration is now open! Note: while we stated earlier that we would be moving to a new registration system, we have postponed that transition to IETF 77. If you have attended a recent IETF meeting, the IETF 76 registration system will be quite familiar. Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/76/ 1. Registration Categories 2. RFID Tagging Experiment 3. Visas and Letters of Invitation 4. Accommodations Breakfast Information Changes from daylight savings to standard time are noted below. 1) Registration Categories A. Early-Bird Registration - USD 635.00 Register and pay before Friday, 30 October 2009 at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT) for Early-Bird rate. B. After Early-Bird cutoff - USD 785.00 C. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 Full-time students with proper ID are eligible to receive a special USD 150.00 student rate. Student rate is not subject to any late-fees. Students will also be able to register on-site at the special student rate. Failure to provide valid student ID on-site will revoke the special student status. D. NEW: One Day Pass Registration - USD 200.00 For IETF 76 we are also experimenting with a one-day pass for $200. Benefits are: 1. Attend all sessions during any one day of the Meeting, and partake of the food and beverage during the breaks 2. You select which day to attend when you show up onsite to check-in 3. Payments may be made onsite without a late fee 4. Pass can be upgraded to a full Meeting Registration, however, late fee may apply if initial one-day payment not made before Early Bird deadline 5. Attend Sunday Tutorials at no additional charge 6. Attend Sunday Welcome Reception at no additional charge 7. Attend Wednesday and Thursday Plenaries at no additional charge 8. If available, you may purchase a ticket between 4-5pm on Tuesday to attend the Host's social event that evening CANCELLATION The cut-off for registration cancellation is Monday, 2 November 2009 at 17:00 PST (01:00 Tuesday, November 3 UTC/GMT). Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation fee if requested by that date and time. Online Registration ends: Friday, 6 November, 2009 at 17:00 local Hiroshima time (00:00 Pacific, 08:00 UTC/GMT). On-site Registration You can register onsite at the meeting in Hiroshima, Japan starting Sunday, 8 November at 12:00 noon PST (local Hiroshima time). Meeting Schedule: Start Monday morning and run through Friday at 15:15 local Hiroshima time. Most training sessions will take place on Sunday afternoon 13 November 2009. Participants should plan their travel accordingly. 2) RFID Tagging Experiment The hosts for IETF 76 are organizing an RFID tag experiment for the meeting. The tag will be affixed to the underside of your meeting badge, as a sticker, and will contain only your full name and any listed affiliation. The experiment will allow us to explore the possibility of electronic blue sheets (though we are still using paper blue sheets as the official blue sheets of record for this meeting). We also hope that the RFID tag will improve the experience for remote participants, since speakers will be identified through the RFID tags. While you will be given the option to opt out of this experiment when you register for the meeting, we sincerely hope you will participate. More information is available here: http://www.ietf.org/EbluesheetInformation.html 3) Visas and Letters of Invitation Please check the Japanese MOFA site (http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/02.html ) for list of countries with visa exemptions. If you travel on a passport issued by a country NOT on this list, you will require documents issued in Japanese by the local host. An English language letter of invitation from the IETF Secretariat WILL NOT suffice to obtain a visa. We recommend at least one month to complete the visa process. To begin the process: 1) please complete Meeting registration and payment of registration fees, 2) reserve accommodation, 3) complete and return the visa information form, which are available in either xls or PDF format on the host site here: http://www.ietf76.jp/ In addition, if you would also like to receive the official IETF letter of invitation, you will be given the option of requesting one after you have completed your meeting registration. Please note that this letter will not assist with the visa process. 4) Accommodations Breakfast Information Information on IETF 76 accommodations can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/76/hotel.html . Please note that breakfast will NOT be provided as part of the on- site meeting services. If you reserve a sleeping room at the ANA Crown Plaza Hotel or at any of the IETF overflow properties, breakfast is included with your room. If you choose to
Nomcom 2009-10: Reminder Call for Nominations, Local Office hours, Nominee Questionnaires available
Hi all, This email covers 3 topics: 1) Reminder: Call for Nominations 2) New: Local Office Hours 3) New: Questionnaires available for nominees Best Regards, Mary Barnes nomcom-ch...@ietf.org mary.h.bar...@gmail.com mary.bar...@nortel.com === 1) Call for Nominations The nomination period ends in less than 3 weeks on Sept. 18th, 2009. We appreciate the folks that have taken the time to make nominations thus far. But, we do need more nominations. Please use the online tool to nominate - it's easy and secure: https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/nominate Details on the open positions, as well as other details and options for making nominations are available on the Nomcom homepage: https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/ Please consider that the sooner you make the nominations, the more time your nominee(s) will have to complete the necessary questionnaire (item 3 below). As well, please consider nominating more than one person for a particular position. You will have the opportunity to provide additional feedback later and it's important to consider that not all nominees will be able to accept the nomination. 2) Local office hours --- In order to facilitate additional feedback, the Nomcom is planning to make themselves available for office areas at various geographic locations for 3 weeks in September, starting on the 8th. Below please find the list of locations where Nomcom members will be available for these f2f meetings . Unless dates are identified below, the Nomcom member is generally available for part of the day during the weeks of Sept 8-11, Sept 14-18 and Sept 21-25. Also, languages other than English in which the Nomcom member is fluent are identfied. Please contact a Nomcom member in a specific geographic location to arrange a convenient meeting time and place. Most Nomcom members are flexible as to meeting locations - i.e., we can travel to your office, meet at our offices or somewhere in between. As a reminder folks can always contact any Nomcom member to provide feedback at anytime - i.e., you don't need to participate in these f2f sessions to provide feedback. Belgium: Dimitri Papadimitriou - dimitri.papadimitr...@alcatel-lucent.be (Sept 21-25) (Languages: French) Boston, Mass, USA: Stephen Kent - k...@bbn.com (Sept 16-18) Boulder, CO, USA: Wassim Haddad - wmhad...@gmail.com (Sept 14-18) Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX, USA: Mary Barnes - mary.h.bar...@gmail.com Lucy Yong - lucyy...@huawei.com (Languages: Chinese) Helsinki, Finland: Simo Veikkolainen - simo.veikkolai...@nokia.com (Languages: Finnish) Ithaca, NY, USA: Scott Brim - scott.b...@gmail.com Montevideo, Uruguay: Roque Gagliano - ro...@lacnic.net (Sept 14-18, 21-25) (Languages: Spanish, Portuguese) Montreal, Quebec, Canada Wassim Haddad - wmhad...@gmail.com (Sept 8-11) -- Can also be available in Ottawa if folks are interested Paris, France: Dimitri Papadimitriou - dimitri.papadimitr...@alcatel-lucent.be (Sept 15-18) (Languages: French) San Diego, CA, USA: Randall Gellens - rg+i...@qualcomm.com Dave Crocker - dcroc...@bbiw.net (Sept 16-18) Silicon Valley/SF Bay, CA, USA: Dave Crocker - dcroc...@bbiw.net (Sept 8-11, Sept 14-15, Sept 21-25) Dorothy Gellert - dorothy.gell...@gmail.com 3) Questionnaires available for nominees: For folks that have been notified that they have been nominated for any of the positions, the questionnaires are now available on the Nomcom09 tools website: https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/iab-questionnaire https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/iaoc-questionnaire https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/09/iesg-questionnaire If you have any questions, please let me know. I will be contacting everyone individually, as well as sending reminders before the deadline. ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
RFC 5616 on Streaming Internet Messaging Attachments
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5616 Title: Streaming Internet Messaging Attachments Author: N. Cook Status: Informational Date: August 2009 Mailbox:neil.c...@noware.co.uk Pages: 28 Characters: 65579 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag:draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-13.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5616.txt This document describes a method for streaming multimedia attachments received by a resource- and/or network-constrained device from an IMAP server. It allows such clients, which often have limits in storage space and bandwidth, to play video and audio email content. The document describes a profile for making use of the URLAUTH- authorized IMAP URLs (RFC 5092), the Network Announcement SIP Media Service (RFC 4240), and the Media Server Control Markup Language (RFC 5022). This memo provides information for the Internet community. This document is a product of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF. INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
RFC 5641 on Layer 2 Tunneling Protocol Version 3 (L2TPv3) Extended Circuit Status Values
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5641 Title: Layer 2 Tunneling Protocol Version 3 (L2TPv3) Extended Circuit Status Values Author: N. McGill, C. Pignataro Status: Standards Track Date: August 2009 Mailbox:nmcg...@cisco.com, cpign...@cisco.com Pages: 11 Characters: 23133 Updates:RFC3931, RFC4349, RFC4454, RFC4591, RFC4719 I-D Tag:draft-ietf-l2tpext-circuit-status-extensions-05.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5641.txt This document defines additional Layer 2 Tunneling Protocol Version 3 (L2TPv3) bit values to be used within the Circuit Status Attribute Value Pair (AVP) to communicate finer-grained error states for Attachment Circuits (ACs) and pseudowires (PWs). It also generalizes the Active bit and deprecates the use of the New bit in the Circuit Status AVP, updating RFC 3931, RFC 4349, RFC 4454, RFC 4591, and RFC 4719. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Layer Two Tunneling Protocol Extensions Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
RFC 5647 on AES Galois Counter Mode for the Secure Shell Transport Layer Protocol
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5647 Title: AES Galois Counter Mode for the Secure Shell Transport Layer Protocol Author: K. Igoe, J. Solinas Status: Informational Date: August 2009 Mailbox:kmi...@nsa.gov, jaso...@orion.ncsc.mil Pages: 10 Characters: 20990 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag:draft-igoe-secsh-aes-gcm-03.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5647.txt Secure shell (SSH) is a secure remote-login protocol. SSH provides for algorithms that provide authentication, key agreement, confidentiality, and data-integrity services. The purpose of this document is to show how the AES Galois Counter Mode can be used to provide both confidentiality and data integrity to the SSH Transport Layer Protocol. This memo provides information for the Internet community. INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
STD 69, RFC 5731 on Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Domain Name Mapping
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. STD 69 RFC 5731 Title: Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Domain Name Mapping Author: S. Hollenbeck Status: Standards Track Date: August 2009 Mailbox:shollenb...@verisign.com Pages: 44 Characters: 87764 Obsoletes: RFC4931 See Also: STD0069 I-D Tag:draft-hollenbeck-rfc4931bis-01.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5731.txt This document describes an Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) mapping for the provisioning and management of Internet domain names stored in a shared central repository. Specified in XML, the mapping defines EPP command syntax and semantics as applied to domain names. This document obsoletes RFC 4931. [STANDARDS TRACK] This is now a Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
STD 69, RFC 5732 on Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Host Mapping
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. STD 69 RFC 5732 Title: Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Host Mapping Author: S. Hollenbeck Status: Standards Track Date: August 2009 Mailbox:shollenb...@verisign.com Pages: 29 Characters: 56219 Obsoletes: RFC4932 See Also: STD0069 I-D Tag:draft-hollenbeck-rfc4932bis-01.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5732.txt This document describes an Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) mapping for the provisioning and management of Internet host names stored in a shared central repository. Specified in XML, the mapping defines EPP command syntax and semantics as applied to host names. This document obsoletes RFC 4932. [STANDARDS TRACK] This is now a Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
RFC 69, RFC 5733 on Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Contact Mapping
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 69 RFC 5733 Title: Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Contact Mapping Author: S. Hollenbeck Status: Standards Track Date: August 2009 Mailbox:shollenb...@verisign.com Pages: 41 Characters: 80698 Obsoletes: RFC4933 See Also: RFC0069 I-D Tag:draft-hollenbeck-rfc4933bis-02.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5733.txt This document describes an Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) mapping for the provisioning and management of individual or organizational social information identifiers (known as contacts) stored in a shared central repository. Specified in Extensible Markup Language (XML), the mapping defines EPP command syntax and semantics as applied to contacts. This document obsoletes RFC 4933. [STANDARDS TRACK] This is now a Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
STD 69, RFC 5734 on Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Transport over TCP
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. STD 69 RFC 5734 Title: Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) Transport over TCP Author: S. Hollenbeck Status: Standards Track Date: August 2009 Mailbox:shollenb...@verisign.com Pages: 13 Characters: 27887 Obsoletes: RFC4934 See Also: STD0069 I-D Tag:draft-hollenbeck-rfc4934bis-01.txt URL:http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5734.txt This document describes how an Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) session is mapped onto a single Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) connection. This mapping requires use of the Transport Layer Security (TLS) protocol to protect information exchanged between an EPP client and an EPP server. This document obsoletes RFC 4934. [STANDARDS TRACK] This is now a Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce