Re: IPv6 standard?
Steve Crocker wrote: There are hundreds of millions of IPv4 computers and perhaps millions of individual IPv4 transport networks, large and small. Here are some useful points along the way from pure IPv4 to pure IPv6. A. Every new computer is able to talk IPv6 B. Every transport is able to talk IPv6, i.e. every network from tier 1 ISPs down through wifi hot spots and every internal corporate network C. Every major service, e.g. Google, CNN, Amazon, is reachable via IPv6 D. Every new computer is not able to talk IPv4 E. A substantial number of transports are unable to talk IPv4 F. A substantial number of major services are not directly accessible via IPv4 (but, of course, will be accessible via gateways) We're basically at A. Give some thought to the dates you'd assign to B through F. Feel free to disagree that these are significant steps along the path, but if you do disagree, please propose other reasonable and measurable mark points. I think there's an additional step in there. I'll call it C.5. C.5. Effectively all Internet resources are reachable via IPv6. I didn't include the bitter end of this process, i.e. the complete disappearances of IPv4. If we get through steps A through F, the rest won't matter much. I'd say that anything beyond my C.5 above won't matter much. And once we reach C.5, the same incentives that pushed IPX, DECNET, etc. out of the picture will also push IPv4 out of the picture at about the same sort of rate. Getting to C.5 is *hard*, clearly, but once there, I see IPv4 dieing off very quickly, probably in single-digit years. But, like I said, it doesn't really matter at that point, just like getting rid of IPX et all really didn't matter to the health of the Internet, but it happened rather quickly in any case. -- Jeff McAdams je...@iglou.com ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IPv6 will never fly: ARIN continues to kill it
Mark Andrews wrote: On Sep 13, 2007, at 12:05 AM, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: I believe that a more constructive assessment is that enterprises are unwilling to pay non-trivial costs to renumber, and ISPs are unwilling to pay non-trivial costs to support a non-scalable routing subsystem. my persistent question to the enterprise operator is this: how frequently do you plan to switch your isp, or how many times did you do that in the past? That's actually irrelevant. Regardless of the real answer, enterprises are not willing to buy into vendor lock. Except there really is no vendor lock anymore. It is possible to automate the entire renumbering process. If there are spots where it is not automated then they should be found and fixed. Oh man, that's rich. Do you actually believe that? I think you forgot to set your alarm clock and are living in that dream world that I mentioned previously. -- Jeff McAdams They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IPv6 will never fly: ARIN continues to kill it
Noel Chiappa wrote: In the enterprise world, where I live now, IPv6 is just flat out a non-starter without PI space. Its just not even a discussion that's even useful to have, because the answer to IPv6 without PI is just No. Let me see if I understand this. Without PI, the enterprises say no, and with PI, the ISP's say no. Got it. Just out of curiousity, how do the enterprises expect to exhange bits without ISP's? They will find ones that will, or they will start ones that will, or ones will start independently that will. And, yes, the entrenched ISP interests really should perceive that to be a business threat, because it is one. (I just realized that I mentioned nanog in my previous message...I'm so used to this discussion happening over there that I just assumed that was there this message was coming from. Regardless, the sentiments against PI space in IPv6 are very ISP-centric and just as ill-fated whether they're on ietf or nanog.) -- Jeff McAdams They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Renumbering
Dave Cridland wrote: On Thu Sep 13 12:39:52 2007, Jeff McAdams wrote: Mark Andrews wrote: Except there really is no vendor lock anymore. It is possible to automate the entire renumbering process. If there are spots where it is not automated then they should be found and fixed. Oh man, that's rich. Do you actually believe that? Welcome to the IETF, where dreams are made reality. I particularly agree with Mark's final sentence, there - if renumbering is a problem, let's solve it. FWIW, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of renumbering activity *is* automated, we've simply forgotten that it's already done. We've got autoconf, we've got DHCP, we have oodles of technology that's deployed already. Yes, automated technologies handle 80% or 90% or even 99% if you've been draconian in designing your provisioning systems. Its that remnant that makes the process infeasible, and that's not going to be fixed with better protocol designs or technology implementations. -- Jeff McAdams They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IPv6 will never fly: ARIN continues to kill it
Mark Andrews wrote: If you design the network for IPv6 and not just copy the IPv4 model. If you use the technology that has been developed over the last 20 years, rather than disabling it, yes it is possible. Yep, dream-world. -- Jeff McAdams They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IPv6 will never fly: ARIN continues to kill it
Noel Chiappa wrote: From: Sam Weiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is remarkably easy to get involved with the ARIN public policy procecss and submit a proposal Yes, and they listen so well! Just like they listened to the people telling them that PI addresses were a bad idea; and how can we forget that recent todo about /48's vs. /56's? Huh...and here I was thinking, Maybe ARIN actually does listen to people. Apparently they paid attention to those of us saying that PI space was absolutely critical for any real level of adoption of IPv6. It seems that nanog is focused (somewhat understandably) on the ideas of the ISP world. In the enterprise world, where I live now, IPv6 is just flat out a non-starter without PI space. Its just not even a discussion that's even useful to have, because the answer to IPv6 without PI is just No. The sooner ISPs quit trying to fight this fight, and just start implementing this stuff widely, the better off everyone will be. To borrow from Nike, Just Do It. OK, maybe not all the tools are fully mature for IPv6, maybe some network gear handles it in main CPU rather than hardware. So what?! Its possible to deploy IPv6 today. The technology is good enough. Maybe its not ideal, but its good enough to make it possible. I'm just sick of the bickering and idiocy about IPv6 not being at complete feature parity with IPv4. Well, no duh! It doesn't need to be right out of the gate. IPv6 doesn't need to be as scaleable as IPv4 right away. It will take time for traffic levels to ramp up, so all of the scalability tricks that we're all using for IPv4 aren't needed right away in IPv6 land. If we want these capabilities to exist, we all need to pressure vendors to bring it about. Saying I want to do IPv6, at some point, if it would be convenient for you. just doesn't hack it. Saying, as I have to a vendor in just these words, We're implementing IPv6 *now*, and your gear is standing in our way. You're behind the curve and you need to catch up, or we quit buying it. brings a lot more pressure to bear. In short, just drop the arguing over it and start deploying. I don't care how, just do it. But if you tell me I can't use PI space, I'm gonna laugh in your face and tell you you're dreaming. -- Jeff McAdams They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Prague
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the former Soviet bloc countries, the train network was well-developed. From personal experience in Russia and Ukraine, I would suggest that you check out train schedules first and only consider car rental if it doesn't work out for you. http://www.myczechrepublic.com/prague/trains_buses.html Wikitravel seems to agree about trains to Konopiste - there is hourly service to Prague http://wikitravel.org/en/Konopiste Yes, the train service is quite good in the Czech Republic. My parents lived there for a year and traveled over much of the country and only had a rented car for about 3 weeks of cumulative time (4 days of that was when I visited). The factoid they laid on me was that the Czech Republic has the most miles of train rails per capita in the world. I won't make the claim that this factoid is really true, but I certainly would not be surprised. Oh, and while I'm writing...if you do get a car to drive out in the surrounding country, you might want to be aware of the practice that I call passing down the middle. This was...exciting...the first time I experienced. When overtaking a car, its frequently done with oncoming traffic. The overtaking car straddles the middle line, and both the car being overtaken and any oncoming traffic slide off to the side (most significant roads have large shoulders) to give room for the overtaking car. At least outside of Prague (I didn't drive in Prague so don't have direct experience in the city) use your turn signals a lot! It was typical for drivers to use a right turn signal to enter a roundabout, a left turn signal as they go around the roundabout, and another right turn signal to exit the roundabout! (just an example) -- Jeff McAdams They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
