Re: The internet architecture
Am 24.12.2008 um 19:50 schrieb Bryan Ford: So in effect we've gotten ourselves in a situation where IP addresses are too topology-independent to provide good scalability, but too topology-dependent to provide real location-independence at least for individual devices, because of equally strong forces pulling the IP assignment process in both directions at once. Hence the reason we desperately need locator/identity separation: so that "locators" can be assigned topologically so as to make routing scalable without having to cater to conflicting concerns about stability or location-independence, and so that "identifiers" can be stable and location-independent without having to cater to conflicting concerns about routing efficiency. As far as specific forms these "locators" or "identifiers" should take, or specific routing protocols for the "locator" layer, or specific resolution or overlay routing protocols for the "identity" layer, I think there are a lot of pretty reasonable options; my paper suggested one, but there are others. Cheers, Bryan thanks brian for your great explanation , something came to my mind imediatly, .i remember these days when i connect to the internet using my 1 und 1 - 14,4kb modem in the 90th there was no NAT, i connected with a little programm to a specific ip adress, there was not even DNS involed at that time. for the programm i was talking about ;) So there were no caches und buffers with information about my usage exept on the server where i was connected to. Just one question because i am reading a lot about all these routing ptotocols in the past , is uia / uip more usefull in sparse or dense networks or both ? bright new 2009 cheers from cologne Marc i believe that "Kademlia " [ 1 ] for example and the technologies mentioned in the linked paper [ 2 ] would fit the needs and requirements for a future proof internet. [ 1 ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia [ 2 ] http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/uip:hotnets03.pdf -- -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: m...@let.de jabber :m...@kgraff.net IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: The internet architecture
dear john day
would you please reply just to the list , sorry it was not my
intention to make such a fuzz when i involved brians opinion about
u.i.a.
Thanks for the other opinions aswell.
regards
and happy new year
Marc
<https://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=122388&ssid=96693
>
Am 29.12.2008 um 16:32 schrieb John Day:
Let me get this straight. You are saying that there are other
reasons why an application should never see an IP address? And you
feel that your reason is more important than simply getting level of
abstractions wrong. So you agree?
Yes, of course. There are lots of ugly things that can happen. You
don't have to go very far to run into why. The question is why have
we insisted on not doing it right for so long?
Take care,
John
At 7:56 -0500 2008/12/29, John C Klensin wrote:
--On Sunday, 28 December, 2008 16:22 -0500 John Day
wrote:
Why should an application ever see an IP address?
Applications manipulating IP addresses is like a Java program
manipulating absolute memory pointers. A recipe for problems,
but then you already know that.
John,
Let me try to explain, in a slightly different way, what I
believe some others have tried to say.
Suppose we all agree with the above as a principle and even
accept your analogy (agreement isn't nearly that general, but
skip that for the moment). Now consider an IPv6 host or a
multihomed IPv4 host (as distinct from multihomed IPv4 network).
The host will typically have multiple interfaces, multiple IP
addresses, and, at least as we do things today and without other
changes in the architecture, only one name. One could change
the latter, but having the typical application know about
multiple interfaces is, in most cases, fully as bad as knowing
about the addresses -- one DNS name per interface is more or
less the same as one DNS name per address.
Now the application has to pick which interface to use in, e.g.,
opening a connection to another system. Doing that optimally,
or even effectively, requires that it know routing information.
But requiring the application to obtain and process routing
information is worse than whatever you think about its using IP
addresses -- the latter may be just a convenient handle ("blob")
to identify what we have historically called an interface, but
having the application process and interpret routing information
is completely novel as far as the applications layer is
concerned (as well as being a layer violation, etc., etc.) and
requires skills and knowledge that application writers rarely
have and still more rarely should need to use.
At least to me, that is the key architectural problem here, not
whatever nasty analogies one can draw about IP addresses.
john
--
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Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and
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Re: The internet architecture
hello, thanks for your reply, i prefer answering questions to the list, hope thats ok for you. Let me try to answer your question with one sentence: i believe that "Kademlia " [ 1 ] for example and the technologies mentioned in the linked paper [ 2 ] would fit the needs and requirements for a future proof internet. meery christmas Marc Manthey [ 1 ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia [ 2 ] http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/uip:hotnets03.pdf -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: m...@let.de jabber :m...@kgraff.net IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: The internet architecture
Am 18.12.2008 um 18:10 schrieb Dick Hardt: On 17-Dec-08, at 11:06 AM, Scott Brim wrote: Mark Seery allegedly wrote on 11/30/08 10:38 AM: Some questions have also risen WRT identity: http://www.potaroo.net/presentations/2006-11-30-whoareyou.pdf Is identity a network level thing or an application level thing? Whatever. All of the above. There are many possible ways to use identifiers, particularly for "session" (whatever that is, at whatever layer) authentication and re-authentication. The point to locator/identifier separation is primarily to get identification- related functions to stop depending on location-dependent tokens, i.e. locators. Once that's done, they can use anything they like -- and they do :-). Agreed. They do. That does not mean that identity should not be an important part of the internet architecture. Note also that the paper above mixes identity with identifiers. They are not the same thing ok try this paper and tell me what you think ;) http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/uip:hotnets03.pdf -Marc -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: m...@let.de jabber :m...@kgraff.net IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: where to send RFC 5378 license forms
federal works sorry for my might be oftopic comment, so if i see something like this in a source code, , This material is partially based on work sponsored by the National Science foundation under Cooperative Agreement No NCR-x.The Government has certain rights in this material. --- this would encumber me from using it, if i understand it correctly, so i thing you really need to be careful when you get sposorship for an "open" source project for example. just my 2 cents best regards marc Also do not forget that the US Government does not claim copyright. Were any RFCs written by US Civil Servants ? Then their work is in the Public Domain. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: where to send RFC 5378 license forms
http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/IETF_General_TM_License.pdf, which would be: IETF Trust 1775 Wiehle Ave Reston, VA 201905108 c/o IETF Administrative Director Facsimile: 703.326.9881 ok, i put an IETF logo on our sourceforge oage last week , please don´t sue me i will send a signed document in the next days. thanks for your appreciation marc However, it would REALLY be good if the Contributor licence I've seen -- Les Enfants Terribles - WWW.LET.DE Marc Manthey 50672 Köln - Germany Hildeboldplatz 1a Tel.:0049-221-3558032 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 mail: m...@let.de jabber :m...@kgraff.net IRC: #opencu freenode.net twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast web: http://www.let.de Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
