'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry • The Register

[Brian E Carpenter]

Since the topic was raised here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/26/girls_in_ict_day/

Note the comment about the need for role models.

Regards
   Brian

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Stephane Bortzmeyer]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 09:35:03AM +0100,
 Brian E Carpenter  wrote 
 a message of 9 lines which said:

> Since the topic was raised here:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/26/girls_in_ict_day/

So, IETF folklore never scares men? Good. 

I also note that the "prominent women from the technology industry"
invited by the IUT were not technologists at all... The IUT apparently
sees women in technology only as lawyers or managers.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Monique Morrow]

Not quite true -- I participated at this venue btw -- though the comment was
sourced from Nelli Kroes AFAIK

M


On 4/30/12 1:39 AM, "Stephane Bortzmeyer"  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 09:35:03AM +0100,
>  Brian E Carpenter  wrote
>  a message of 9 lines which said:
> 
>> Since the topic was raised here:
>> 
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/26/girls_in_ict_day/
> 
> So, IETF folklore never scares men? Good.
> 
> I also note that the "prominent women from the technology industry"
> invited by the IUT were not technologists at all... The IUT apparently
> sees women in technology only as lawyers or managers.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Stephane Bortzmeyer]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:39:56AM +0200,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer  wrote 
 a message of 13 lines which said:

> I also note that the "prominent women from the technology industry"
> invited by the IUT 

s/IUT/ITU/ of course.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Riccardo Bernardini]

I understand that this was the result of a "high-level dialogue"
(whatever that means) among few (how many?) people.  This reminds me
of the "the Emperor of China nose length" problem

  http://imaginatorium.org/stuff/nose.htm

Discussion among a limited group of people is not guaranteed to give
you the "truth,"  in this case the conclusion is maybe more the result
of the preconception of the participants, rather than the real
motivations behind low woman participation in ICT.

In this case the best solution (although not easy to implement) would
be to ask directly to young women: "Are you interested in an ICT
carrer?, If yes, why?  If no, why not?"

My personal (limited, I admit it) experience with my high-school
female co-students, was that most of them  were not interested in
technical stuff, telling them about the latest program for C-64 was
the most efficient algorithm to get them bored.  If you say that
personal interest does not matter and that they should be attracted by
the career opportunities in a field that they do not like, let me beg
to disagree: I had enough negative experiences about people that do
their work only for money, rather than for passion.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:39:56AM +0200,
>  Stephane Bortzmeyer  wrote
>  a message of 13 lines which said:
>
>> I also note that the "prominent women from the technology industry"
>> invited by the IUT
>
> s/IUT/ITU/ of course.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Monique Morrow]

Well I do engage quite actively in these discussion with girls in high
school; young women in universities and women in the industry the problem
space and opportunity is  multifaceted, cultural depending upon the
country--- and btw  my motto:

"geek c ést chic! "


Monique

On 4/30/12 2:03 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini"  wrote:

> I understand that this was the result of a "high-level dialogue"
> (whatever that means) among few (how many?) people.  This reminds me
> of the "the Emperor of China nose length" problem
> 
>   http://imaginatorium.org/stuff/nose.htm
> 
> Discussion among a limited group of people is not guaranteed to give
> you the "truth,"  in this case the conclusion is maybe more the result
> of the preconception of the participants, rather than the real
> motivations behind low woman participation in ICT.
> 
> In this case the best solution (although not easy to implement) would
> be to ask directly to young women: "Are you interested in an ICT
> carrer?, If yes, why?  If no, why not?"
> 
> My personal (limited, I admit it) experience with my high-school
> female co-students, was that most of them  were not interested in
> technical stuff, telling them about the latest program for C-64 was
> the most efficient algorithm to get them bored.  If you say that
> personal interest does not matter and that they should be attracted by
> the career opportunities in a field that they do not like, let me beg
> to disagree: I had enough negative experiences about people that do
> their work only for money, rather than for passion.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer 
> wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:39:56AM +0200,
>>  Stephane Bortzmeyer  wrote
>>  a message of 13 lines which said:
>> 
>>> I also note that the "prominent women from the technology industry"
>>> invited by the IUT
>> 
>> s/IUT/ITU/ of course.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Mary Barnes]

Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only goes to
show your own bias towards women in science and engineering in general.  By
the time most females reach high school they have already been conditioned
that girls aren't as good as boys in math and science. There's a far amount
of studies showing this - at least in the US.  As Monique said it is a very
complex issue.  Some of it starts at home and it starts extremely early.
It's far more common for girls to be told they are pretty rather than
smart.  They have found some physiologic reasons that do influence math
abilities - those with "math brains" tend to have higher levels of
testosterone.

That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of women active
in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that are in the field. But
it might have something to do with IETFers sharing your perspective that
women just aren't interested.

Regards,
Mary.
On Apr 30, 2012 4:04 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini" 
wrote:

RE: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Worley, Dale R (Dale)]

On 4/30/12 2:03 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini"  wrote:
> In this case the best solution (although not easy to implement) would
> be to ask directly to young women: "Are you interested in an ICT
> carrer?, If yes, why?  If no, why not?"

From: Monique Morrow [mmor...@cisco.com]
> Well I do engage quite actively in these discussion with girls in high
> school; young women in universities and women in the industry the problem
> space and opportunity is  multifaceted, cultural depending upon the
> country

In the countries with which you are most familiar, what answers do
girls give you?

> and btw  my motto:
> 
> "geek c ést chic! "

What responses do you receive to your motto?

Dale

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Huub van Helvoort]

Hi Dale,

You wondered:


and btw  my motto:

"geek c ést chic!"


What responses do you receive to your motto?


That it is spelled wrong...

BR, Huub.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Riccardo Bernardini]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Mary Barnes  wrote:
> Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only goes to
> show your own bias towards women in science and engineering in general.  By
> the time most females reach high school they have already been conditioned
> that girls aren't as good as boys in math and science. There's a far amount
> of studies showing this - at least in the US.  As Monique said it is a very
> complex issue.  Some of it starts at home and it starts extremely early.
> It's far more common for girls to be told they are pretty rather than
> smart.  They have found some physiologic reasons that do influence math
> abilities - those with "math brains" tend to have higher levels of
> testosterone.

Yes, as I told (well, not actually told, but I think it was clear from
the context), what I reported was just anecdotal evidence and over a
very tiny sample.   Should I place a bet right now, I would say that
the reason is a very complex mix of external influence, cultural
background and maybe the tiniest hint (q.b.) of physiology.

My remark wanted to emphasize the fact that if I had asked to those
girls "Did you consider graduating in engineering?"  they would have
not answered something like "I would like, but... it is not for
girls", "...I am too pretty for that", "...my parents never would
allow me;" I think they would have answered "No, it does not interest
me."  So it seems (by this anecdotal and very limited evidence) that
at that age the choice of not becoming an engineer is not "forced"
over the girl, but just she makes her choice freely.  If the choice is
forced by the cultural background that acts over the years and it
convinces girls that engineering is not for them, I cannot say and
cannot guess.

>
> That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of women active
> in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that are in the field. But
> it might have something to do with IETFers sharing your perspective that
> women just aren't interested.
>

Honestly, I do not know what the reason could be.  To be double
honest, I do not even know the percentage of women in the field and in
the IETF.  I guess "in the field" should be the field of networking.
I am quite new as an IETFer, so I do not have enough experience to say
if there is something in the IETF culture that scares women, but, as a
first and personal impression, I did not notice anything that could
make me think that women are unwelcome.
I guess that any problem here is quite complex too.  For example, I
guess that many IETFers participate because their employer asks so.
So, maybe could be the problem (in part, at least) on the employer's
side?

I do not know.  This is very complex and sensitive an issue and it is
difficult to discuss about the causes and possible solutions without
enough background solution.  My fear is that it would produce more
energy beyond 750 nm rather than in the 390-700 nm range :-)

Riccardo

> Regards,
> Mary.
>
> On Apr 30, 2012 4:04 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini" 
> wrote:

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Melinda Shore]

On 4/30/12 7:33 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote:

So it seems (by this anecdotal and very limited evidence) that

> [ ... ]

So it seems to me that when in possession of only anecdotal,
limited evidence that it might be a good idea to acquire more
evidence before drawing conclusions.

Melinda

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Mary Barnes]

Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the situation
than I did:
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp

The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work environment
and perceived lack of support from colleagues.

Although, the one bonus of the lack of women in IETF is that we never have
to wait in line for the restroom with one exception - the little broom
closets in the Paris venue.

Mary.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Mary Barnes wrote:

> Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only goes to
> show your own bias towards women in science and engineering in general.  By
> the time most females reach high school they have already been conditioned
> that girls aren't as good as boys in math and science. There's a far amount
> of studies showing this - at least in the US.  As Monique said it is a very
> complex issue.  Some of it starts at home and it starts extremely early.
> It's far more common for girls to be told they are pretty rather than
> smart.  They have found some physiologic reasons that do influence math
> abilities - those with "math brains" tend to have higher levels of
> testosterone.
>
> That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of women active
> in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that are in the field. But
> it might have something to do with IETFers sharing your perspective that
> women just aren't interested.
>
> Regards,
> Mary.
> On Apr 30, 2012 4:04 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini" 
> wrote:
>

RE: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Worley, Dale R (Dale)]

> From: Mary Barnes [mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com]
> 
> Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the
> situation than I did:
> http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp
> 
> The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work
> environment and perceived lack of support from colleagues.

Even the summary of the study that is given in the article is a
fascinating read, with a lot of information on the subject that I've
never seen before.

Who would have expected:
The study also found that 15 percent of women who earn undergraduate
degrees in engineering never entered the profession at all.  Many of
them went on to enter the legal or medical professions or other fields
where their engineering education served them well.

The full study is at:
http://www.studyofwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/NSF_Women-Full-Report-0314.pdf

Though this study only looks at women who entered engineering programs
in college, thus missing the ones who never entered an engineering
program at all.

Dale

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Janet P Gunn]

My own anecdotes.

Yes, it starts early.

When I was 3 I announced that I was going to be a physicist when I grew 
up.  WHY?

1 - a physicist has a chair that  is on WHEELS, and spins ROUND and ROUND
2 - a physicist has a blackboard with COLORED CHALK
3 (and MOST important) a physicist has a CANDY machine in the hall outside 
his office.

Well, I didn't become a physicist, but those features certainly put 
technology in a good light from an early age.!!

Second, while the statistics may say something else, I find MORE WOMEN, in 
MORE RESPECTED positions, at IETF than in my work environment.

Janet


ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 04/30/2012 10:13:50 AM:

> Mary Barnes  
> Sent by: ietf-boun...@ietf.org
> 
> 04/30/2012 10:13 AM
> 
> To
> 
> Riccardo Bernardini 
> 
> cc
> 
> IETF discussion list 
> 
> Subject
> 
> Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register
> 
> Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only 
> goes to show your own bias towards women in science and engineering 
> in general.  By the time most females reach high school they have 
> already been conditioned that girls aren't as good as boys in math 
> and science. There's a far amount of studies showing this - at least
> in the US.  As Monique said it is a very complex issue.  Some of it 
> starts at home and it starts extremely early.  It's far more common 
> for girls to be told they are pretty rather than smart.  They have 
> found some physiologic reasons that do influence math abilities - 
> those with "math brains" tend to have higher levels of testosterone.
> That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of women 
> active in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that are in 
> the field. But it might have something to do with IETFers sharing 
> your perspective that women just aren't interested.  
> Regards,
> Mary.
>

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Richard L. Barnes]

There are fewer women, per capita, at the IETF than at my day job.  

There are fewer women, per capita, at the IETF than at any of the RIR meeting I 
have attended (incl. RIPE, APNIC, ARIN).




On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

> My own anecdotes. 
> 
> Yes, it starts early. 
> 
> When I was 3 I announced that I was going to be a physicist when I grew up.  
> WHY? 
> 
> 1 - a physicist has a chair that  is on WHEELS, and spins ROUND and ROUND 
> 2 - a physicist has a blackboard with COLORED CHALK 
> 3 (and MOST important) a physicist has a CANDY machine in the hall outside 
> his office. 
> 
> Well, I didn't become a physicist, but those features certainly put 
> technology in a good light from an early age.!! 
> 
> Second, while the statistics may say something else, I find MORE WOMEN, in 
> MORE RESPECTED positions, at IETF than in my work environment.
> 
> Janet
> 
> 
> ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 04/30/2012 10:13:50 AM:
> 
> > Mary Barnes  
> > Sent by: ietf-boun...@ietf.org
> > 
> > 04/30/2012 10:13 AM 
> > 
> > To 
> > 
> > Riccardo Bernardini  
> > 
> > cc 
> > 
> > IETF discussion list  
> > 
> > Subject 
> > 
> > Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register 
> > 
> > Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only 
> > goes to show your own bias towards women in science and engineering 
> > in general.  By the time most females reach high school they have 
> > already been conditioned that girls aren't as good as boys in math 
> > and science. There's a far amount of studies showing this - at least
> > in the US.  As Monique said it is a very complex issue.  Some of it 
> > starts at home and it starts extremely early.  It's far more common 
> > for girls to be told they are pretty rather than smart.  They have 
> > found some physiologic reasons that do influence math abilities - 
> > those with "math brains" tend to have higher levels of testosterone. 
> > That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of women 
> > active in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that are in 
> > the field. But it might have something to do with IETFers sharing 
> > your perspective that women just aren't interested.  
> > Regards,
> > Mary. 
> >

RE: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[ned+ietf]

> > From: Mary Barnes [mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com]
> >
> > Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the
> > situation than I did:
> > http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp
> >
> > The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work
> > environment and perceived lack of support from colleagues.

> Even the summary of the study that is given in the article is a
> fascinating read, with a lot of information on the subject that I've
> never seen before.

> Who would have expected:
> The study also found that 15 percent of women who earn undergraduate
> degrees in engineering never entered the profession at all.  Many of
> them went on to enter the legal or medical professions or other fields
> where their engineering education served them well.

> The full study is at:
> http://www.studyofwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/NSF_Women-Full-Report-0314.pdf

That link appears to be broken. The link that worked for me is:

  http://studyofwork.com/files/2011/03/NSF_Women-Full-Report-0314.pdf

Ned

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Fred Baker]

On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:03 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote:

> I understand that this was the result of a "high-level dialogue"
> (whatever that means) among few (how many?) people.  This reminds me
> of the "the Emperor of China nose length" problem
> 
>  http://imaginatorium.org/stuff/nose.htm

I expected the end of the article to be something to the effect of "eventually, 
the emperor measured it himself and announced the result, and as a result we 
now know how long a cm is."

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Ofer Inbar]

This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
worth watching:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2012/04/college_president_discusses_wo.html

  -- Cos

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Fred Baker]

On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Ofer Inbar wrote:

> This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
> subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
> worth watching:
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2012/04/college_president_discusses_wo.html

This is a discussion that comes up periodically.

If you want my opinion (nobody asked, but I will presume that someone is 
wondering), the corollary is "why aren't more students interested in 
math/science?". I'll observe that there are relatively few teachers that I can 
say "inspired" me to think their their directions; far-too-many years later, I 
could probably name them. Two were English teachers, one was a Math teacher, 
tenth grade geometry, one taught 7th grade Geography, and one taught senior 
Calculus. And, oh, I liked some of my college profs, but in this context my 
views were probably formed before I got there.

What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a year 
that asked "does teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Glen Zorn]

On 05/01/2012 02:52 AM, Mary Barnes wrote:
Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the 
situation than I did:

http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp

The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work 
environment and perceived lack of support from colleagues.


Although, the one bonus of the lack of women in IETF is that we never 
have to wait in line for the restroom with one exception - the little 
broom closets in the Paris venue.


Don't feel too bad, Mary: there were queues for the men' facilities, too :-(



Mary.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Mary Barnes 
mailto:mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only
goes to show your own bias towards women in science and
engineering in general.  By the time most females reach high
school they have already been conditioned that girls aren't as
good as boys in math and science. There's a far amount of studies
showing this - at least in the US.  As Monique said it is a very
complex issue.  Some of it starts at home and it starts extremely
early.  It's far more common for girls to be told they are pretty
rather than smart.  They have found some physiologic reasons that
do influence math abilities - those with "math brains" tend to
have higher levels of testosterone.

That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of
women active in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that
are in the field. But it might have something to do with IETFers
sharing your perspective that women just aren't interested.

Regards,
Mary.

On Apr 30, 2012 4:04 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini"
mailto:framefri...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Yoav Nir]

On May 1, 2012, at 12:31 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

My own anecdotes.

Yes, it starts early.

When I was 3 I announced that I was going to be a physicist when I grew up.  
WHY?

1 - a physicist has a chair that  is on WHEELS, and spins ROUND and ROUND
2 - a physicist has a blackboard with COLORED CHALK
3 (and MOST important) a physicist has a CANDY machine in the hall outside his 
office.

But engineers get to drive trains. Trains > swivel chairs.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Yoav Nir]

On Apr 30, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:

Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the situation than 
I did:
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp

The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work environment and 
perceived lack of support from colleagues.

Interesting, but I don't really get some of the distinctions they are making. 
Women *are not* leaving engineering to spend time with their families, but they 
*are* leaving engineering because of 60-hour weeks and having to work weekends.

I'm also not sure that stereotype is still valid. It's the romantic image of a 
technology start-up trying to get a product out before funding runs out, but 
most engineers won't work in those. Most will work at established companies or 
in corporate IT, and in those places, the 60-hour week is either rare or 
non-existent. There may be other things that scare women away from 
IT/engineering jobs, but there are plenty of those available that do not 
require that type of having no life.

Yoav

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Monique Morrow]

> In the countries with which you are most familiar, what answers do
> girls give you?

 The responses vary from lack of encouragement; lack of role models; lack of
education-inspiring instructors;

 "geek c ést chic! "

> What responses do you receive to your motto?

Very positive - my point is geek is not negative and it can be really really
cool 

Best -m



On 4/30/12 7:22 AM, "Worley, Dale R (Dale)"  wrote:

> On 4/30/12 2:03 AM, "Riccardo Bernardini"  wrote:
>> In this case the best solution (although not easy to implement) would
>> be to ask directly to young women: "Are you interested in an ICT
>> carrer?, If yes, why?  If no, why not?"
> 
> From: Monique Morrow [mmor...@cisco.com]
>> Well I do engage quite actively in these discussion with girls in high
>> school; young women in universities and women in the industry the problem
>> space and opportunity is  multifaceted, cultural depending upon the
>> country
> 
> In the countries with which you are most familiar, what answers do
> girls give you?
> 
>> and btw  my motto:
>> 
>> "geek c ést chic! "
> 
> What responses do you receive to your motto?
> 
> Dale

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Riccardo Bernardini]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Melinda Shore  wrote:
> On 4/30/12 7:33 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote:
>>
>> So it seems (by this anecdotal and very limited evidence) that
>
>> [ ... ]
>
> So it seems to me that when in possession of only anecdotal,
> limited evidence that it might be a good idea to acquire more
> evidence before drawing conclusions.

Sorry, I did not want to express any conclusive position about this
issue. I was just expressing my impression, given my personal
experience.  I am sorry if gave another impression, but English is not
my native language, so some misunderstanding can happen.

As I said in another post, I tend to avoid this type of discussions
because of the risk of generating more heat than light.

>
> Melinda
>

RE: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Yaakov Stein]

> What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a year 
> that asked "does teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".

Feynman recollected that when he returned from school his mother never asked 
him if he answered the teacher's questions correctly,
rather if he asked any interesting questions.

Y(J)S

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[t . p .]

- Original Message -
From: "Huub van Helvoort" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 4:52 PM

Hi Dale,

You wondered:

>> and btw  my motto:
>>
>> "geek c ést chic!"
>
> What responses do you receive to your motto?

That it is spelled wrong...


Sad, isn't it?  All that effort on i18e and we still get the basics wrong.  Bit
like all that effort I read about on breaking the glass ceiling.

Tom Petch






BR, Huub.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Mary Barnes]

The article clearly states that women leave for the two reasons you
mentioned, which are certainly the exact same things males deal with, but
you missed a few others that the article notes, specifically and directly
quoted below:

"...lack of real or perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil
work environments where women were treated in condescending or patronizing
manners. Only 25 percent of the women who left engineering did so for
family reasons."

Mary

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Yoav Nir  wrote:

>
> On Apr 30, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:
>
> Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the situation
> than I did:
> http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp
>
> The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work environment
> and perceived lack of support from colleagues.
>
>
> Interesting, but I don't really get some of the distinctions they are
> making. Women *are not* leaving engineering to spend time with their
> families, but they *are* leaving engineering because of 60-hour weeks and
> having to work weekends.
>
> I'm also not sure that stereotype is still valid. It's the romantic image
> of a technology start-up trying to get a product out before funding runs
> out, but most engineers won't work in those. Most will work at established
> companies or in corporate IT, and in those places, the 60-hour week is
> either rare or non-existent. There may be other things that scare women
> away from IT/engineering jobs, but there are plenty of those available that
> do not require that type of having no life.
>
> Yoav
>
>

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Scott Brim]

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 09:45, Mary Barnes  wrote:
> The article clearly states that women leave for the two reasons you
> mentioned, which are certainly the exact same things males deal with, but
> you missed a few others that the article notes, specifically and directly
> quoted below:
>
> "...lack of real or perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil
> work environments where women were treated in condescending or patronizing
> manners. Only 25 percent of the women who left engineering did so for family
> reasons."
>
> Mary

I conjecture there are few work environments where these are NOT the case.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Monique Morrow]

One of the points I discussed in NYC last week was also the role of media
and what is depicted in film, TV and so on wrt girls-women, a topic of the
Miss Representation initiative:

http://www.missrepresentation.org/

Monique


On 5/1/12 6:45 AM, "Mary Barnes"  wrote:

> The article clearly states that women leave for the two reasons you mentioned,
> which are certainly the exact same things males deal with, but you missed a
> few others that the article notes, specifically and directly quoted below:
> 
> "...lack of real or perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil work
> environments where women were treated in condescending or patronizing manners.
> Only 25 percent of the women who left engineering did so for family reasons."
> 
> Mary
> 
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Yoav Nir  wrote:
>> 
>> On Apr 30, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:
>> 
>>> Here is an article that does a far better job of explaining the situation
>>> than I did:
>>> http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/May/women-in-engineering.asp
>>> 
>>> The largest reason women leave engineering is due to the work environment
>>> and perceived lack of support from colleagues.   
>> 
>> Interesting, but I don't really get some of the distinctions they are making.
>> Women *are not* leaving engineering to spend time with their families, but
>> they *are* leaving engineering because of 60-hour weeks and having to work
>> weekends.
>> 
>> I'm also not sure that stereotype is still valid. It's the romantic image of
>> a technology start-up trying to get a product out before funding runs out,
>> but most engineers won't work in those. Most will work at established
>> companies or in corporate IT, and in those places, the 60-hour week is either
>> rare or non-existent. There may be other things that scare women away from
>> IT/engineering jobs, but there are plenty of those available that do not
>> require that type of having no life.
>> 
>> Yoav
>> 
> 
> 

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Yoav Nir]

On May 1, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:

The article clearly states that women leave for the two reasons you mentioned, 
which are certainly the exact same things males deal with, but you missed a few 
others that the article notes, specifically and directly quoted below:

"...lack of real or perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil work 
environments where women were treated in condescending or patronizing manners. 
Only 25 percent of the women who left engineering did so for family reasons."


Well, it says this:
   "The common perception is that women are leaving for taking care of their 
families," says Fouad. "But that's clearly not true. They left the profession 
for organizational culture reasons."

And then this:
   Among the common factors that women cited as their reasons for leaving the 
profession were too much travel, working too many hours, lack of real or 
perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil work environments where 
women were treated in condescending or patronizing manners. Only 25 percent of 
the women who left engineering did so for family reasons.

So on the one hand they claim that women are not leaving to take care of their 
families, but on the other the first two correct reasons they mention are too 
much travel and too many hours. I think these two are pretty much the same, and 
the primary reason why someone (male or female) would object to travel and long 
hours is because it takes time away from family. Sure, it's possible they don't 
want to work long hours so that they can spend more time playing online games 
(http://iqu.com/blog/women-dominate-mobile-game-spending) or gambling online 
(http://ezinearticles.com/?UK-Online-Gambling-Dominated-by-Women-Players&id=6934242),
 but I suspect that few people are quitting their jobs to spend more time on 
gaming. I could be wrong. IOW I don't see the difference between not wanting to 
spend too much time at work and wanting to spend more time with your family.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Randy Presuhn]

Hi -

> From: "Yoav Nir" 
> To: "Mary Barnes" 
> Cc: "IETF-Discussion list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:12 AM
> Subject: Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register
...
> IOW I don't see the difference between not wanting to spend too
> much time at work and wanting to spend more time with your family.

I think the notion that one's life is limited to work and family is a
great example of what makes for an unsupportive environment,
regardless of one's gender.  I have no scientific study to back me
up, but my experience has been that men (myself included at times)
tend to be fairly clueless about what makes for an "uncivil work
environment", and in particular, privilege tends to make us oblivious
to "condescending or patronizing" behaviour.

Randy

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Melinda Shore]

On 5/1/12 8:12 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:

Well, it says this:
"The common perception is that women are leaving for taking care of
their families," says Fouad. "But that's clearly not true. They left the
profession for organizational culture reasons."

And then this:
Among the common factors that women cited as their reasons for leaving
the profession were too much travel, working too many hours, lack of
real or perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil work
environments where women were treated in condescending or patronizing
manners. Only 25 percent of the women who left engineering did so for
family reasons.


Four reasons were listed, and you're focusing on two of them.  We really
don't know how those reasons were distributed.

It's certainly possible that the men who are being dismissive, here, or
who are saying that the real issue is that women don't *really* want
technology careers or are somehow unworthy are part of the problem.

Melinda

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[John C Klensin]

--On Tuesday, May 01, 2012 09:55 -0400 Scott Brim
 wrote:

>> "...lack of real or perceived opportunities for advancement,
>> and uncivil work environments where women were treated in
>> condescending or patronizing manners. Only 25 percent of the
>> women who left engineering did so for family reasons."
>> 
>> Mary
> 
> I conjecture there are few work environments where these are
> NOT the case.

And so?   

I agree with "few", but "few" is not zero.  It is possible to
have work environments where that doesn't happen.  One could
take "few" as "ok, we can give up now", but I don't think that
is a satisfactory inference (and can't imagine, knowing you,
that you do either).

The question for me is what we can and/or should usefully do
about the issue in the IETF.  Partially because I've observed
over the years that it is much easier to change behavior than to
change attitudes but that changing behavior often requires the
ability to apply sanctions, I'm pretty pessimistic about trying
to use the IETF to get ahead of the industrial / work
environment situation.  

I do think we should be more aggressive about leadership
development activities, not just with occasional newcomers
orientations but by making more mentoring opportunities
available to relative newcomers (of both genders).  And I think,
with some reinforcement from some of the articles and
discussions on this list, that it is probably more practical to
focus efforts on retention and advancement rather than
recruitment.  If nothing else, we probably don't have a lot of
control over recruitment given organizational and support
decisions.

best,
john

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Hector]

Fred Baker wrote:

On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Ofer Inbar wrote:


This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
worth watching:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2012/04/college_president_discusses_wo.html


This is a discussion that comes up periodically.

If you want my opinion (nobody asked, but I will presume that someone is wondering), the corollary 
is "why aren't more students interested in math/science?". I'll observe that there are 
relatively few teachers that I can say "inspired" me to think their their directions; 
far-too-many years later, I could probably name them. Two were English teachers, one was a Math 
teacher, tenth grade geometry, one taught 7th grade Geography, and one taught senior Calculus. And, 
oh, I liked some of my college profs, but in this context my views were probably formed before I 
got there.

What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a year that asked "does 
teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".


+1.

What about other minorities?  Is the recruitment levels the same?
Public funded, social programs to fill certain needs? Both at the
school and business levels?

A Puerto Rican from the Sough Bronx, I wanted to go to the vocational
school up the block - Alfred E. Smith.  AP/College bounds programs
were presented to me. I didn't know enough to see it or even dream
about it.

A HS counselor helped with showing the availability of AA/Minority
college grant programs which included girls among the selected group
she called to her office.  Otherwise, while a good grades student, I
wasn't thinking about college. I selected Drexel only because a
recruiter came to the HS showing a photo with white, black, spanish
and women all wearing cool Drexel Engineering helmets!  I selected
Chemical Engineering because I saw they made the most salary as a
co-op student among all degrees! I had no idea how brutal the Chemical
Engineering curriculum would be.

But I had even failed a HS class called "Computers" that introduced
this thing called FORTRAN using some punch card thingy.  So I was
presented with even more Pre-college Grant programs to learn about
applied engineering with computers, and it still took an act of GOD
with a lightning strike knocking out a PDP-11, forcing us to do the
engineering problem translation to BASIC on paper by hand, and only
then did I finally get the AH-AH of GIGO!

And even with all that, it still took AA programs it finally get a job
because it was mist of a recession that did not help many get a job
and this dude called Ted Turner speaking in our graduation getting
loud boos recommending that we go into the MILITARY!

IMO, background is very important. Unless there are active social
programs and recruitment efforts A.K.A "Marketing," I don't think
there will a natural tendency of the so called "minority segment" of
(any) society that are not often encouraged or have the family
background already, to explore or even think about the science related
industry as a career.

Take myself. I was deep into computers and the blossoming world of
Telecomputing, micro-at-home era. The wife (Technical Sales Engineer)
and I specifically did not want our two new girls to get into the same
High Tech business as Daddy and Mommy were in.  No Way! Doctors,
Lawyers perhaps! No way ENGINEER!  It was too tough and I also saw how
tough it was for my women peers at Mobil and Westinghouse with an
extreme competition going on, and quite frankly faced tough family
decisions at some point. In fact, during some pending layoffs at big
W, I was told I was going to stay and found out a pregnant software
programmer in the group was going to get laid off. With my existing
"Fire in my Belly" to quit and start my business already, I took the
opportunity and asked the boss to keep her and to lay me off instead
so I can get the benefits, Cobra, etc.  If I had quit, I lose all that.

I had already saw that the salaries were different too. The idea of
working for a corporation lost its appear when I saw a lost of loyalty
with people of 20, 25-30 years who had dedicated their engineering
lives were now forced to get early retirement, laid off or fired.
With no more Federal funding for Advanced Energy programs and the even
Defense in AI, Robots and Star Wars, etc, I did not want my two girls
to go into these life commitment hard sciences. I didn't push the
computers at home on them at all. I didn't teach them about the idea
of "programming" etc. Perhaps only to play games, and perhaps to use
the early on-disc encyclopedias. They were using Apple stuff at school
anyway and that was good enough for us.

Today, both living in NYC, one works for Sony Music productions
department and the oldest is a successful independent artist making
more money that I can ever imagine possible. She was even a contestant
on Bravo's first season "Next Great Artist."  The only thing that
first 

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Melinda Shore]

On 5/1/12 9:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote:

I'm pretty pessimistic about trying
to use the IETF to get ahead of the industrial / work
environment situation.


Me too, and I'm pretty sure that that's the real issue, anyway.
But still, I do think that if supporting diversity is a cultural
value at the IETF (and do I have a more concrete description of
what that means?  No, I do not) it's something that participants
can take home with them, and that's a positive thing.


I do think we should be more aggressive about leadership
development activities, not just with occasional newcomers
orientations but by making more mentoring opportunities
available to relative newcomers (of both genders).


Me, too.

Melinda

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Hector]

Monique Morrow wrote:

One of the points I discussed in NYC last week was also the role of media
and what is depicted in film, TV and so on wrt girls-women, a topic of the
Miss Representation initiative:

http://www.missrepresentation.org/

Monique


My young artist daughter depicted the woman dilemma in her well 
received, career advancing gallery showing painting:


   http://www.jaclynsantos.com/images/large/g.jpg

--
HLS

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Janet P Gunn]

This is VERY narrow minded, and, to be honest, somewhat insulting.

You suggest that "time at work" and "family" are the only important things 
to women.

First off, "working too many hours", and "too much travel" are 
considerably MORE onerous when you DON'T have a family to back you up - 
especially if you have a house to be maintained, animals to be fed and 
exercised, and so on. 

If you have a family, they can pick up some of the slack when you have to 
work late  or travel.  If not, you have to struggle to find a pet sitter 
and so forth.

Furthermore, many of us have extensive non-family commitments outside of 
work - serious (time consuming) hobby's and  competitions, volunteer 
organizations for which we are part of the management team, to say nothing 
of exercise and sleep.


No! "too much travel and too many hours" is NOT "pretty much the same" as 
"takes time away from family".

Janet
.



From:   Yoav Nir 





And then this:
   Among the common factors that women cited as their reasons for leaving 
the profession were too much travel, working too many hours, lack of real 
or perceived opportunities for advancement, and uncivil work environments 
where women were treated in condescending or patronizing manners. Only 25 
percent of the women who left engineering did so for family reasons.

So on the one hand they claim that women are not leaving to take care of 
their families, but on the other the first two correct reasons they 
mention are too much travel and too many hours. I think these two are 
pretty much the same, and the primary reason why someone (male or female) 
would object to travel and long hours is because it takes time away from 
family. 

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Hector]

Hector wrote:

Monique Morrow wrote:

One of the points I discussed in NYC last week was also the role of media
and what is depicted in film, TV and so on wrt girls-women, a topic of 
the

Miss Representation initiative:

http://www.missrepresentation.org/

Monique


My young artist daughter depicted the woman dilemma in her well 
received, career advancing gallery showing painting:


   http://www.jaclynsantos.com/images/large/g.jpg



Here is Jaclyn's view on this topic:

  http://www.jaclynsantos.com/statement.html

  "I FEEL that contemporary American society places an unattainable
   amount of expectations on women; cinematography in particular
   often creates "superwomen" who are unnaturally beautiful, smart,
   talented, successful, and sexually gifted. However, due to time 
constraints

   as well as genetically determined physical and mental limitations, no
   real woman could ever possibly achieve equality with these
   fictitious idols.

   While women have always been my chosen subject matter, I feel that
   my work simultaneously functions as a more general commentary on the
   dominant isolationist spirit of modern American culture. This is 
why I

   typically paint the figures by themselves. I prefer to place them
   within their own environments to emphasize their isolation."


--
HLS

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Thomas Narten]

This is a complex topic and one where it's easy to be naive or even
dismissive if one hasn't experienced stuff themselves or worked with
people who have.

If this conversation was about IETF culture, and how it's hard for
non-Americans to participate "IETF style", I bet folk would much more
quickly recognize some of the real issues.

If folk really want to dive, http://www.ncwit.org/ is a good place to
start.

For the IETF, I think that interested folk might want to form an ad
hoc support/networking group and *especially* see about putting
together some sort of mentoring program. I'm sure if there was a way
for potential mentors to volunteer, there would be a good number of
interested volunteers (myself included). Growing a next generation of
leaders is something the entire IETF should do more of.

Thomas

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Yoav Nir]

On May 1, 2012, at 8:44 PM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

This is VERY narrow minded, and, to be honest, somewhat insulting.

You suggest that "time at work" and "family" are the only important things to 
women.

I'm suggesting no such thing. This authors of this survey say that women who 
left engineering did not do so to take care of their families, although their 
own data says that 25% of them did. They mention long hours and travel, but 
they offer no explanation why these would be different between men and women.

The one issue that would seem to be different between men and women is the 
attitude of co-workers and superiors towards women, and workplace climate 
issues, yet only one in three give that as the reason for leaving. So if women 
go from 20% when they graduate to 11% at the workplace, only about 3 of those 
percent are explained by workplace climate. I still don't see how those other 
things are different for women.

It should also be noted, that this study is not about the kind of engineering 
we do at the IETF. The women interviewed are mechanical, industrial, and 
chemical engineers. In fact in a couple of places computer programming is 
mentioned as one of those alternative careers women can take when they leave 
engineering:
"...I got to a certain point in my engineering career when I NO LONGER 
ADVANCED. I felt I needed additional education to move forward, but no topics 
interested me as much as computer programming, so I changed my career to that. 
It was a good change. I have been more successful in the computer field than I 
was in the engineering field.”

I don't know the figures for the IT industry, but I would guess that they're 
not as lopsided as those for those so-called real engineering.

Yoav

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Janet P Gunn]

Yoav Nir  wrote on 05/01/2012 02:24:57 AM:

> From: Yoav Nir 
> To: Janet P Gunn/USA/CSC@CSC
> Cc: Mary Barnes , "ietf-
> boun...@ietf.org" , IETF discussion list 
> 
> Date: 05/01/2012 02:26 AM
> Subject: Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The 
Register
> 
> On May 1, 2012, at 12:31 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:
> 
> My own anecdotes. 
> 
> Yes, it starts early. 
> 
> When I was 3 I announced that I was going to be a physicist when I 
> grew up.  WHY? 
> 
> 1 - a physicist has a chair that  is on WHEELS, and spins ROUND and 
ROUND 
> 2 - a physicist has a blackboard with COLORED CHALK 
> 3 (and MOST important) a physicist has a CANDY machine in the hall 
> outside his office. 
> 
> But engineers get to drive trains. Trains > swivel chairs.

If I go back even further, when I was born my father reportedly told a 
colleague "I don't care if she IS a girl.  She is still going to like 
trains!"

Janet

RE: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Richard Shockey]

 [RS> ] +1 This is not just something we should do, its something we have to
do. I know the AD's try and keep a strong hand in talent spotting among the
WG chairs on who might succeed them, but one thing I believe WG chairs need
to do is appoint WG Secretaries. I always did. Limit the number of WG's a
single individual can co-chair.  The best way to mentor promising talent of
is to give them a start on the "career ladder"  

I'm sure if there was a way for potential mentors to volunteer, there would
be a good number of interested volunteers (myself included). Growing a next
generation of leaders is something the entire IETF should do more of.

Thomas

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Mary Barnes]

Here is a very timely article on this topic:
http://news.mentornet.net/content/why-getting-women-stem-matters

Note, this is from an organization that is focused on getting diversity in
engineering and science, so for those interested in more information on
this topic, there are many, many other articles on that website.

I also agree with Thomas and others that IETF would definitely benefit as a
whole by setting up a mentor program.  There is information on how an
organization can get involved with mentor net to setup a mentoring program
here:
http://www.mentornet.net/societies.aspx

Note, that ISOC already has some programs in place that encourage new
leaders in the industry as well as participation from developing developing
countries:
 - Next Generation Leaders Program:
http://www.internetsociety.org/what-we-do/leadership-programmes/next-generation-leaders-ngl-programme
 - the IETF Fellowship Program:
http://www.internetsociety.org/what-we-do/education-and-leadership-programmes

I personally was not at all aware of the NGL program.  As I understand it,
the Fellowship Program is already setup to assign a mentor to each of the 5
individuals.

So, it may be worth discussing whether this ought to be part of the ISOC
programs (or an enhancement to the NGL program) or something that does fall
directly under the IETF similar to the newcomer events.

Regards,
Mary.

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Hector Santos]

Fred Baker wrote:

On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Ofer Inbar wrote:


This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
worth watching:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2012/04/college_president_discusses_wo.html


This is a discussion that comes up periodically.

If you want my opinion (nobody asked, but I will presume that someone is wondering), the corollary 
is "why aren't more students interested in math/science?". I'll observe that there are 
relatively few teachers that I can say "inspired" me to think their their directions; 
far-too-many years later, I could probably name them. Two were English teachers, one was a Math 
teacher, tenth grade geometry, one taught 7th grade Geography, and one taught senior Calculus. And, 
oh, I liked some of my college profs, but in this context my views were probably formed before I 
got there.

What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a year that asked "does 
teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".


+1.

What about other minorities?  Is the recruitment levels the same? 
Public funded, social programs to fill certain needs? Both at the 
school and business levels?


A Puerto Rican from the Sough Bronx, I wanted to go to the vocational 
school up the block - Alfred E. Smith.  AP/College bounds programs 
were presented to me. I didn't know enough to see it or even dream 
about it.


A HS counselor helped with showing the availability of AA/Minority 
college grant programs which included girls among the selected group 
she called to her office.  Otherwise, while a good grades student, I 
wasn't thinking about college. I selected Drexel only because a 
recruiter came to the HS showing a photo with white, black, spanish 
and women all wearing cool Drexel Engineering helmets!  I selected 
Chemical Engineering because I saw they made the most salary as a 
co-op student among all degrees! I had no idea how brutal the Chemical 
Engineering curriculum would be.


But I had even failed a HS class called "Computers" that introduced 
this thing called FORTRAN using some punch card thingy.  So I was 
presented with even more Pre-college Grant programs to learn about 
applied engineering with computers, and it still took an act of GOD 
with a lightning strike knocking out a PDP-11, forcing us to do the 
engineering problem translation to BASIC on paper by hand, and only 
then did I finally get the AH-AH of GIGO!


And even with all that, it still took AA programs it finally get a job 
because it was mist of a recession that did not help many get a job 
and this dude called Ted Turner speaking in our graduation getting 
loud boos recommending that we go into the MILITARY!


IMO, background is very important. Unless there are active social 
programs and recruitment efforts A.K.A "Marketing," I don't think 
there will a natural tendency of the so called "minority segment" of 
(any) society that are not often encouraged or have the family 
background already, to explore or even think about the science related 
industry as a career.


Take myself. I was deep into computers and the blossoming world of 
Telecomputing, micro-at-home era. The wife (Technical Sales Engineer) 
and I specifically did not want our two new girls to get into the same 
High Tech business as Daddy and Mommy were in.  No Way! Doctors, 
Lawyers perhaps! No way ENGINEER!  It was too tough and I also saw how 
tough it was for my women peers at Mobil and Westinghouse with an 
extreme competition going on, and quite frankly faced tough family 
decisions at some point. In fact, during some pending layoffs at big 
W, I was told I was going to stay and found out a pregnant software 
programmer in the group was going to get laid off. With my existing 
"Fire in my Belly" to quit and start my business already, I took the 
opportunity and asked the boss to keep her and to lay me off instead 
so I can get the benefits, Cobra, etc.  If I had quit, I lose all that.


I had already saw that the salaries were different too. The idea of 
working for a corporation lost its appear when I saw a lost of loyalty 
with people of 20, 25-30 years who had dedicated their engineering 
lives were now forced to get early retirement, laid off or fired. 
With no more Federal funding for Advanced Energy programs and the even 
Defense in AI, Robots and Star Wars, etc, I did not want my two girls 
to go into these life commitment hard sciences. I didn't push the 
computers at home on them at all. I didn't teach them about the idea 
of "programming" etc. Perhaps only to play games, and perhaps to use 
the early on-disc encyclopedias. They were using Apple stuff at school 
anyway and that was good enough for us.


Today, both living in NYC, one works for Sony Music productions 
department and the oldest is a successful independent artist making 
more money that I can ever imagine possible. She was even a contestant 
on Bravo's f

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Mary Barnes]

Note that mentor net that I mentioned in another email is also focused on
increasing minorities in engineering: http://www.mentornet.net/
They are always looking for new mentors:
http://www.mentornet.net/mentor.aspx

If your child doesn't seem to have the aptitude for engineering, then
certainly you shouldn't push them in that direction.  But, I do have to
wonder if you wouldn't have treated a son differently.  As you likely
figured out, you really do need to allow your child to find their own
interests and make their own career decisions,while making sure they  have
exposure to a broad range of areas.   Unfortunately, a lot of public
schools don't give kids that exposure these days - they often cut the
arts/music and there is almost always an extremely high demand for science
and math teachers.

As far as my kids, my oldest son is a Freshman studying mechanical
engineering (entirely his decision, but he did get awards for the top math
and science student, so it does seem a sensible choice). My younger son is
the artsy one although he does quite well in math and science.  I can't see
either or them ever getting involved in IETF - they've gone with me to
meetings (and have more t-shirts than many regular attendees) and they were
turned off by the overall geekiness (so it's not just women ;)  and told me
that I actually seem normal relative to everyone else ;)

Mary.

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Hector Santos wrote:

> Fred Baker wrote:
>
>> On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Ofer Inbar wrote:
>>
>>  This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
>>> subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
>>> worth watching:
>>>
>>> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/**extra/video/blog/2012/04/**
>>> college_president_discusses_**wo.html
>>>
>>
>> This is a discussion that comes up periodically.
>>
>> If you want my opinion (nobody asked, but I will presume that someone is
>> wondering), the corollary is "why aren't more students interested in
>> math/science?". I'll observe that there are relatively few teachers that I
>> can say "inspired" me to think their their directions; far-too-many years
>> later, I could probably name them. Two were English teachers, one was a
>> Math teacher, tenth grade geometry, one taught 7th grade Geography, and one
>> taught senior Calculus. And, oh, I liked some of my college profs, but in
>> this context my views were probably formed before I got there.
>>
>> What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a
>> year that asked "does teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".
>>
>
> +1.
>
> What about other minorities?  Is the recruitment levels the same? Public
> funded, social programs to fill certain needs? Both at the school and
> business levels?
>
> A Puerto Rican from the Sough Bronx, I wanted to go to the vocational
> school up the block - Alfred E. Smith.  AP/College bounds programs were
> presented to me. I didn't know enough to see it or even dream about it.
>
> A HS counselor helped with showing the availability of AA/Minority college
> grant programs which included girls among the selected group she called to
> her office.  Otherwise, while a good grades student, I wasn't thinking
> about college. I selected Drexel only because a recruiter came to the HS
> showing a photo with white, black, spanish and women all wearing cool
> Drexel Engineering helmets!  I selected Chemical Engineering because I saw
> they made the most salary as a co-op student among all degrees! I had no
> idea how brutal the Chemical Engineering curriculum would be.
>
> But I had even failed a HS class called "Computers" that introduced this
> thing called FORTRAN using some punch card thingy.  So I was presented with
> even more Pre-college Grant programs to learn about applied engineering
> with computers, and it still took an act of GOD with a lightning strike
> knocking out a PDP-11, forcing us to do the engineering problem translation
> to BASIC on paper by hand, and only then did I finally get the AH-AH of
> GIGO!
>
> And even with all that, it still took AA programs it finally get a job
> because it was mist of a recession that did not help many get a job and
> this dude called Ted Turner speaking in our graduation getting loud boos
> recommending that we go into the MILITARY!
>
> IMO, background is very important. Unless there are active social programs
> and recruitment efforts A.K.A "Marketing," I don't think there will a
> natural tendency of the so called "minority segment" of (any) society that
> are not often encouraged or have the family background already, to explore
> or even think about the science related industry as a career.
>
> Take myself. I was deep into computers and the blossoming world of
> Telecomputing, micro-at-home era. The wife (Technical Sales Engineer) and I
> specifically did not want our two new girls to get into the same High T

Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Rumbidzayi Gadhula]

Culture plays a vital role in determining what one's options are, incuding
career options. When I was in high schoool I was good at maths and science.
After  completing my O'levels, there was a general assumptions that I wold
take up Commercial/business subjects and when I opted for the science
subjects the genral notion was that i wouldn't do well. Now 8 after my
undergrad. I find that the workplace can really be hostile and uncivil to
women in the technical field, that is,  if you are lucky to get an
opportunity. I have found that at times male colleagues look at you as an
intruder and you are expected to behave like a wife in the boardroom, very
subservient and always looking up and aying the man.

Getting ahead is very difficult and the best way to do so is to move jobs.
I have three kids and two of them are girls. If they want to enter the
technical field, I will definitely sit down and have an honest ho holds
barred talk with them to prepare them for the disappointments they may
face. However if it was my decision, I would discourage them even tough I
am in the technical field, enjoy my job and wouldn't want to change careers.

The workplace is supposed to have evolved, to include women, but the
workplace really isn't inclusive.

What I have outllined is my perception of things and could very well be
true for other professions, which I find to be very similar to that of
other women techies. The reason for the perception above are varied and
addressing each of them is essential for women to have an interest in
engineering. There really won't be a need to push unless being geeky can be
pereived as being attractive. What makes geek attractive? That should be
the question we need to answer. How do we make geek attractive?



On 2 May 2012 22:06, Mary Barnes  wrote:

> Note that mentor net that I mentioned in another email is also focused on
> increasing minorities in engineering: http://www.mentornet.net/
> They are always looking for new mentors:
> http://www.mentornet.net/mentor.aspx
>
> If your child doesn't seem to have the aptitude for engineering, then
> certainly you shouldn't push them in that direction.  But, I do have to
> wonder if you wouldn't have treated a son differently.  As you likely
> figured out, you really do need to allow your child to find their own
> interests and make their own career decisions,while making sure they  have
> exposure to a broad range of areas.   Unfortunately, a lot of public
> schools don't give kids that exposure these days - they often cut the
> arts/music and there is almost always an extremely high demand for science
> and math teachers.
>
> As far as my kids, my oldest son is a Freshman studying mechanical
> engineering (entirely his decision, but he did get awards for the top math
> and science student, so it does seem a sensible choice). My younger son is
> the artsy one although he does quite well in math and science.  I can't see
> either or them ever getting involved in IETF - they've gone with me to
> meetings (and have more t-shirts than many regular attendees) and they were
> turned off by the overall geekiness (so it's not just women ;)  and told me
> that I actually seem normal relative to everyone else ;)
>
> Mary.
>
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Hector Santos wrote:
>
>> Fred Baker wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Ofer Inbar wrote:
>>>
>>>  This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
 subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
 worth watching:

 http://www.pbs.org/newshour/**extra/video/blog/2012/04/**
 college_president_discusses_**wo.html

>>>
>>> This is a discussion that comes up periodically.
>>>
>>> If you want my opinion (nobody asked, but I will presume that someone is
>>> wondering), the corollary is "why aren't more students interested in
>>> math/science?". I'll observe that there are relatively few teachers that I
>>> can say "inspired" me to think their their directions; far-too-many years
>>> later, I could probably name them. Two were English teachers, one was a
>>> Math teacher, tenth grade geometry, one taught 7th grade Geography, and one
>>> taught senior Calculus. And, oh, I liked some of my college profs, but in
>>> this context my views were probably formed before I got there.
>>>
>>> What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a
>>> year that asked "does teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".
>>>
>>
>> +1.
>>
>> What about other minorities?  Is the recruitment levels the same? Public
>> funded, social programs to fill certain needs? Both at the school and
>> business levels?
>>
>> A Puerto Rican from the Sough Bronx, I wanted to go to the vocational
>> school up the block - Alfred E. Smith.  AP/College bounds programs were
>> presented to me. I didn't know enough to see it or even dream about it.
>>
>> A HS counselor helped

RE: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Worley, Dale R (Dale)]

> From: Thomas Narten [nar...@us.ibm.com]
> 
> If this conversation was about IETF culture, and how it's hard for
> non-Americans to participate "IETF style", I bet folk would much more
> quickly recognize some of the real issues.

Has there been any organized attempt to reduce the difficulty for
non-Americans to participate "IETF style"?

Dale

Re: [IETF] Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register

[Warren Kumari]

On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

> My own anecdotes. 
> 
> Yes, it starts early. 
> 
> When I was 3 I announced that I was going to be a physicist when I grew up.  
> WHY? 
> 
> 1 - a physicist has a chair that  is on WHEELS, and spins ROUND and ROUND 
> 2 - a physicist has a blackboard with COLORED CHALK 
> 3 (and MOST important) a physicist has a CANDY machine in the hall outside 
> his office. 

Hmmm... when I was young I wanted to be a garbage man... then one day I 
realized I didn't own the correct gloves, so I decided I would a doctor 
instead...

Apparently that fact that I would A: be able to buy garbage man gloves (or get 
some provided) and B: doctors also need gloves completely didn't occur to me...

:-P

W


> 
> Well, I didn't become a physicist, but those features certainly put 
> technology in a good light from an early age.!! 
> 
> Second, while the statistics may say something else, I find MORE WOMEN, in 
> MORE RESPECTED positions, at IETF than in my work environment.
> 
> Janet
> 
> 
> ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 04/30/2012 10:13:50 AM:
> 
> > Mary Barnes  
> > Sent by: ietf-boun...@ietf.org
> > 
> > 04/30/2012 10:13 AM 
> > 
> > To 
> > 
> > Riccardo Bernardini  
> > 
> > cc 
> > 
> > IETF discussion list  
> > 
> > Subject 
> > 
> > Re: 'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry ? The Register 
> > 
> > Yes, the article is far from complete.  But, your antecdote only 
> > goes to show your own bias towards women in science and engineering 
> > in general.  By the time most females reach high school they have 
> > already been conditioned that girls aren't as good as boys in math 
> > and science. There's a far amount of studies showing this - at least
> > in the US.  As Monique said it is a very complex issue.  Some of it 
> > starts at home and it starts extremely early.  It's far more common 
> > for girls to be told they are pretty rather than smart.  They have 
> > found some physiologic reasons that do influence math abilities - 
> > those with "math brains" tend to have higher levels of testosterone. 
> > That all said, it still doesn't explain why the percentage of women 
> > active in the IETF is less than the percentage of women that are in 
> > the field. But it might have something to do with IETFers sharing 
> > your perspective that women just aren't interested.  
> > Regards,
> > Mary. 
> >