Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Brian E Carpenter wrote: x.x Compensation for IOAC members The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from exceptional reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the IOAC. This text works for me. And I agree with Jonne that it makes sense for the BCP to talk about compensation. Brian's text leaves the decisions about reimbursement of expenses to the operative management and operative policies, as they should be. --Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
--On 3. januar 2005 07:40 -0800 EKR ekr@rtfm.com wrote: I don't think that anyone is saying that. However, AFAIK there's in fact no rule prohibiting IESG/IAB members from being directly paid by IETF--not that that's a likely event. At at least one point in the IETF's history, there was a nomcom interviewing a candidate for an IETF role where the candidate said that he would take the job only if the job was compensated - he had neither an employer willing to sponsor nor a sufficient personal fortune he was willing to spend. This received serious consideration at the time, but in the end the result of the consideration was to pick someone else. I'd like to reinforce EKR's point here - there should be rules for this sort of thing - but *these do not need to be in this document*. My opinion. Harald ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Harald, On Tue, 2005-01-04 at 10:28, ext Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: --On 3. januar 2005 07:40 -0800 EKR ekr@rtfm.com wrote: I don't think that anyone is saying that. However, AFAIK there's in fact no rule prohibiting IESG/IAB members from being directly paid by IETF--not that that's a likely event. At at least one point in the IETF's history, there was a nomcom interviewing a candidate for an IETF role where the candidate said that he would take the job only if the job was compensated - he had neither an employer willing to sponsor nor a sufficient personal fortune he was willing to spend. This received serious consideration at the time, but in the end the result of the consideration was to pick someone else. I'd like to reinforce EKR's point here - there should be rules for this sort of thing - but *these do not need to be in this document*. Compensation in the form of a salary of the board (== IAOC) members is a thing that is usually written in the by-laws. Especially, if some sort of compensation is paid it is important to document how the compensation is defined in the term of actual dollars. So, I would still support the wording that Brian put forward some mails ago. Cheers, Jonne. My opinion. Harald -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Brian et al., would x.x Compensation for IOAC members The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the IOAC. do the trick then? (Modified from the ISOC by-laws.) I really do believe that at least the fact that the IOAC members are not payed for their services should be documented. Cheers, Jonne. On Sun, 2005-01-02 at 12:20, ext Brian E Carpenter wrote: John C Klensin wrote: --On Thursday, 30 December, 2004 11:21 -0800 EKR ekr@rtfm.com wrote: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. ... Jonne, The argument you're making here is for a policy that IAOC members should be responsible for their own expenses. That's a perfectly reasonable policy, but the course of action you're arguing for is to write it into the BCP so that it can't be changed without extraordinary difficulty. Can you explain why you think that that's necessary? EKR has now tried to make this point several times, and others don't seem to be hearing him, so let me try and, in the process, provide an additional data point. I think it is key that this is a management decision, not material for the BCP. The right way to deal with this, IMO, is the way we have (apparently) agreed to handle other details, i.e., to have the BCP charge the IAOC with coming up with a policy and making that policy known in the community. Were that policy to be, or become, abusive, then it needs to be fixed by (or with) the IAOC. But let's not lock a specific, perhaps over-specific, policy into the BCP. In case anyone doesn't know, IAB and IESG members, and probably others, have occasionally been reimbursed for travel expenses to meetings where they were representing the IETF and no other source of funds was available. If I recall, travel expenses to IETF meetings have occasionally, although I think very rarely, been reimbursed as well. When it has been done, those expenses have been covered out of IETF Chair discretionary funds provided by ISOC. The reimbursements have not been widely publicized, I think, out of consideration for the privacy of the people involved. The new IASA disclosure rules would, I believe, require at least an accounting of the total amounts of money expended in this way. But going further than that could, IMO, hurt our ability to operate effectively, and to get the best people to key meetings (rather than just the best-supported people) and we should be careful to not shoot ourselves in the foot in this area. Exactly. If for whatever reason a person who doesn't have corporate support gets appointed to the IAOC, we mustn't have a rule that prevents that person from being reimbursed for legitimate expenses. The rule that Jonne cited for ISOC Trustees covers that nicely. The principle that IAOC members donate their time might be worth writing down, but expenses are an operational matter. Brian -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Jonne asks: would x.x Compensation for IOAC members The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the IOAC. do the trick then? works for me ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Scott reponds to Jonne:
Jonne asks:
would
x.x Compensation for IOAC members
The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from
reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the
IOAC.
do the trick then?
works for me
personal opinion:
Not for me. It seems to make it autotmatic that IAOC members DO receive
reimbursement for expenses. I think I can live with the fact that thye
may get it in special circumstances, but I do not like the idea
that text suggests that it is normal to reimburse them.
The current text in section 3, 1st para states
The IAOC consists of volunteers,
does that not say enough?
Bert
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RE: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
bert asks: The current text in section 3, 1st para states The IAOC consists of volunteers, does that not say enough? I'd say no - volunteers can get paid in some cases Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
bert asks:
The current text in section 3, 1st para states
The IAOC consists of volunteers,
does that not say enough?
I'd say no - volunteers can get paid in some cases
Sure... sometimes they also get a bottle of wine with Xmas.
Should we add clear text about that too?
Bert :-)/2
Scott
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Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Scott Bradner wrote:
bert asks:
The current text in section 3, 1st para states
The IAOC consists of volunteers,
does that not say enough?
I'd say no - volunteers can get paid in some cases
x.x Compensation for IOAC members
The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from
exceptional reimbursement of expenses) for their services as
members of the IOAC.
Does this fix Bert's objection?
Brian
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RE: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Bert, On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 16:46, ext Wijnen, Bert (Bert) wrote: Scott reponds to Jonne: Jonne asks: would x.x Compensation for IOAC members The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the IOAC. do the trick then? works for me personal opinion: Not for me. It seems to make it autotmatic that IAOC members DO receive reimbursement for expenses. I think I can live with the fact that thye may get it in special circumstances, but I do not like the idea that text suggests that it is normal to reimburse them. The current text in section 3, 1st para states The IAOC consists of volunteers, does that not say enough? I don't think that is quite enough, IMHO. I think the fact that the IAOC members are not to be payed for their services (no compensation for lost free time) should be documented. I am (as my original proposal was not to have the IAOC people reimbursed at all) sympathetic of the idea to optimise the IASA funds by having reimbursements being rather an exception than a rule. I just thought that many people were saying that they for some reason would like the IAOC being treated a bit better than the IESG/IAB... Cheers, Jonne. Bert ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 17:10, ext Brian E Carpenter wrote: Scott Bradner wrote: bert asks: The current text in section 3, 1st para states The IAOC consists of volunteers, does that not say enough? I'd say no - volunteers can get paid in some cases x.x Compensation for IOAC members The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from exceptional reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the IOAC. Does this fix Bert's objection? Works at least for me. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bert, On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 16:46, ext Wijnen, Bert (Bert) wrote: Scott reponds to Jonne: Jonne asks: would x.x Compensation for IOAC members The IOAC members shall not receive any compensation (apart from reimbursement of expenses) for their services as members of the IOAC. do the trick then? works for me personal opinion: Not for me. It seems to make it autotmatic that IAOC members DO receive reimbursement for expenses. I think I can live with the fact that thye may get it in special circumstances, but I do not like the idea that text suggests that it is normal to reimburse them. The current text in section 3, 1st para states The IAOC consists of volunteers, does that not say enough? I don't think that is quite enough, IMHO. I think the fact that the IAOC members are not to be payed for their services (no compensation for lost free time) should be documented. I am (as my original proposal was not to have the IAOC people reimbursed at all) sympathetic of the idea to optimise the IASA funds by having reimbursements being rather an exception than a rule. I just thought that many people were saying that they for some reason would like the IAOC being treated a bit better than the IESG/IAB... I don't think that anyone is saying that. However, AFAIK there's in fact no rule prohibiting IESG/IAB members from being directly paid by IETF--not that that's a likely event. -Ekr ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Wijnen, == Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wijnen, The current text in section 3, 1st para states Wijnen, The IAOC consists of volunteers, Wijnen, does that not say enough? I think it does. I haven't seen an argument for why more text is needed in the BCP. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
John C Klensin wrote: --On Thursday, 30 December, 2004 11:21 -0800 EKR ekr@rtfm.com wrote: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. ... Jonne, The argument you're making here is for a policy that IAOC members should be responsible for their own expenses. That's a perfectly reasonable policy, but the course of action you're arguing for is to write it into the BCP so that it can't be changed without extraordinary difficulty. Can you explain why you think that that's necessary? EKR has now tried to make this point several times, and others don't seem to be hearing him, so let me try and, in the process, provide an additional data point. I think it is key that this is a management decision, not material for the BCP. The right way to deal with this, IMO, is the way we have (apparently) agreed to handle other details, i.e., to have the BCP charge the IAOC with coming up with a policy and making that policy known in the community. Were that policy to be, or become, abusive, then it needs to be fixed by (or with) the IAOC. But let's not lock a specific, perhaps over-specific, policy into the BCP. In case anyone doesn't know, IAB and IESG members, and probably others, have occasionally been reimbursed for travel expenses to meetings where they were representing the IETF and no other source of funds was available. If I recall, travel expenses to IETF meetings have occasionally, although I think very rarely, been reimbursed as well. When it has been done, those expenses have been covered out of IETF Chair discretionary funds provided by ISOC. The reimbursements have not been widely publicized, I think, out of consideration for the privacy of the people involved. The new IASA disclosure rules would, I believe, require at least an accounting of the total amounts of money expended in this way. But going further than that could, IMO, hurt our ability to operate effectively, and to get the best people to key meetings (rather than just the best-supported people) and we should be careful to not shoot ourselves in the foot in this area. Exactly. If for whatever reason a person who doesn't have corporate support gets appointed to the IAOC, we mustn't have a rule that prevents that person from being reimbursed for legitimate expenses. The rule that Jonne cited for ISOC Trustees covers that nicely. The principle that IAOC members donate their time might be worth writing down, but expenses are an operational matter. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Personally, I don't understand why we would have a different reimbursement policy for IAOC members than for IESG and IAB members. just being willing to pay travel expenses might make it possible for someone to be able to do the IAOC job (since I think it can be done in non-day-job time) - that is not the case for IAB or IESG members Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Sam, most probably (I would guess) you have a bridge with a US phone number (both toll and toll-free). However, people from outside US have to pay for the long distance fee to call those numbers. However, maybe that particular information was a little bit too specific... Cheers, Jonne. On Fri, 2004-12-31 at 02:39, ext Sam Hartman wrote: Soininen == Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Soininen x.x IAOC members compensation for labor, travel, and Soininen other costs Soininen The IAOC membership is considered voluntary. Hence, the Soininen costs sustained by the members to participate in the Soininen IAOC are not be reimbursed by the IASA or the Soininen ISOC. These costs include but are not limited to time Soininen used to perform duties of IAOC, travel to face-to-face Soininen meetings and accommodation during the meetings, and Soininen long-distance calls to IAOC teleconferences. I don't know about IAB calls, but with some exceptions IESG members do not pay to participate in the telechats. -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Scott, On Fri, 2004-12-31 at 15:18, ext Scott Bradner wrote: Personally, I don't understand why we would have a different reimbursement policy for IAOC members than for IESG and IAB members. just being willing to pay travel expenses might make it possible for someone to be able to do the IAOC job (since I think it can be done in non-day-job time) - that is not the case for IAB or IESG members To be honest, I don't quite follow this logic. What would be the major difference here on the reimbursement? Cheers, Jonne. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
just being willing to pay travel expenses might make it possible for someone to be able to do the IAOC job (since I think it can be done in non-day-job time) - that is not the case for IAB or IESG members To be honest, I don't quite follow this logic. What would be the major difference here on the reimbursement? the key difference is if the job can be done while holding down a full time day-job (so the employer does not have to donate significant time) - since an AD job is at least half time it can not be done without significant employer support (or by someone with their own money) - if the IAOC job can be done on someone's own time then they do not need employer support for their time and, if the expenses for the few trips needed are covered, support for travel (outside of normal IETF travel) Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
--On Thursday, 30 December, 2004 11:21 -0800 EKR ekr@rtfm.com wrote: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. ... Jonne, The argument you're making here is for a policy that IAOC members should be responsible for their own expenses. That's a perfectly reasonable policy, but the course of action you're arguing for is to write it into the BCP so that it can't be changed without extraordinary difficulty. Can you explain why you think that that's necessary? EKR has now tried to make this point several times, and others don't seem to be hearing him, so let me try and, in the process, provide an additional data point. I think it is key that this is a management decision, not material for the BCP. The right way to deal with this, IMO, is the way we have (apparently) agreed to handle other details, i.e., to have the BCP charge the IAOC with coming up with a policy and making that policy known in the community. Were that policy to be, or become, abusive, then it needs to be fixed by (or with) the IAOC. But let's not lock a specific, perhaps over-specific, policy into the BCP. In case anyone doesn't know, IAB and IESG members, and probably others, have occasionally been reimbursed for travel expenses to meetings where they were representing the IETF and no other source of funds was available. If I recall, travel expenses to IETF meetings have occasionally, although I think very rarely, been reimbursed as well. When it has been done, those expenses have been covered out of IETF Chair discretionary funds provided by ISOC. The reimbursements have not been widely publicized, I think, out of consideration for the privacy of the people involved. The new IASA disclosure rules would, I believe, require at least an accounting of the total amounts of money expended in this way. But going further than that could, IMO, hurt our ability to operate effectively, and to get the best people to key meetings (rather than just the best-supported people) and we should be careful to not shoot ourselves in the foot in this area. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
However, people from outside US have to pay for the long distance fee to call those numbers. the services that teh IESG used when I was an AD called out to non-US folk (or to folk that were in those %%(*$%$ hotels that charge per minute for toll free calls longer than some time) Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Hi, I think one of the things still missing from the document is setting of the compensation for the IAOC members for their services, travel, etc. I think that everybody expects the job to be voluntary and that's why it has not been documented. However, for the sake of avoiding future discussions I would propose it to be documented. Here is some proposed text: (maybe for 4.2? - if you like it, maybe somebody can translate it to English...) x.x IAOC members compensation for labor, travel, and other costs The IAOC membership is considered voluntary. Hence, the costs sustained by the members to participate in the IAOC are not be reimbursed by the IASA or the ISOC. These costs include but are not limited to time used to perform duties of IAOC, travel to face-to-face meetings and accommodation during the meetings, and long-distance calls to IAOC teleconferences. Cheers, Jonne. -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think one of the things still missing from the document is setting of the compensation for the IAOC members for their services, travel, etc. I think that everybody expects the job to be voluntary and that's why it has not been documented. However, for the sake of avoiding future discussions I would propose it to be documented. Here is some proposed text: (maybe for 4.2? - if you like it, maybe somebody can translate it to English...) x.x IAOC members compensation for labor, travel, and other costs The IAOC membership is considered voluntary. Hence, the costs sustained by the members to participate in the IAOC are not be reimbursed by the IASA or the ISOC. These costs include but are not limited to time used to perform duties of IAOC, travel to face-to-face meetings and accommodation during the meetings, and long-distance calls to IAOC teleconferences. Hmm... Just because something is voluntary doesn't mean that we shouldn't reimburse people's expenses. I don't think I'd be comfortable wiring this into the BCP. -Ekr ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
thanks to Jonne for bringing this up - I agree that some text about this should be in the document but I disagree on what it should say. imo - the IAOC members should not be compensated for their time but I think its reasonable for them to be reimbursed for expenses for travel to meetings not held in the same place and time as IETF meetings (or just before or after an IETF at the same location) - since I would hope that almost all of the work of the IAOC shoudl be done over the net or by phone I would not think this would come up that often but it might during startup (revaluating RFP responses for example) - doing this enables peopel who do not have strong money support to still be able to be on the IAOC Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Ekr, if we decide to reimburse for the expenses created by the position in the IAOC we have to create also rules what is reimbursed and on what terms. E.g., in what are reasonable costs (traveling in economy, business, first?) etc. Especially difficult is to lay down the price for the labor invested to the IAOC work. I think what I have proposed is in line with the current practice in IAB/IESG as well, for instance. Cheers, Jonne. On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:10, ext EKR wrote: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think one of the things still missing from the document is setting of the compensation for the IAOC members for their services, travel, etc. I think that everybody expects the job to be voluntary and that's why it has not been documented. However, for the sake of avoiding future discussions I would propose it to be documented. Here is some proposed text: (maybe for 4.2? - if you like it, maybe somebody can translate it to English...) x.x IAOC members compensation for labor, travel, and other costs The IAOC membership is considered voluntary. Hence, the costs sustained by the members to participate in the IAOC are not be reimbursed by the IASA or the ISOC. These costs include but are not limited to time used to perform duties of IAOC, travel to face-to-face meetings and accommodation during the meetings, and long-distance calls to IAOC teleconferences. Hmm... Just because something is voluntary doesn't mean that we shouldn't reimburse people's expenses. I don't think I'd be comfortable wiring this into the BCP. -Ekr -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if we decide to reimburse for the expenses created by the position in the IAOC we have to create also rules what is reimbursed and on what terms. E.g., in what are reasonable costs (traveling in economy, business, first?) etc. Sure, but these are exactly the kinds of rules that companies have to make every day. They're management decisions, not things that get written into the corporate bylaws. Especially difficult is to lay down the price for the labor invested to the IAOC work. I agree that we shouldn't be paying the IAOC members. There's a bright line between that and reimbursing them for expenses, IMHO. -Ekr ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Actually... Section 4. The Trustees shall not receive any compensation (apart from reimbursement of expenses) for their services as Trustees, but this shall not preclude reasonable compensation for services rendered to the Society by a Trustee in some other capacity. This is from the ISOC by-laws... Cheers, Jonne. On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:30, ext EKR wrote: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if we decide to reimburse for the expenses created by the position in the IAOC we have to create also rules what is reimbursed and on what terms. E.g., in what are reasonable costs (traveling in economy, business, first?) etc. Sure, but these are exactly the kinds of rules that companies have to make every day. They're management decisions, not things that get written into the corporate bylaws. Especially difficult is to lay down the price for the labor invested to the IAOC work. I agree that we shouldn't be paying the IAOC members. There's a bright line between that and reimbursing them for expenses, IMHO. -Ekr -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Scott, On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:14, ext Scott Bradner wrote: thanks to Jonne for bringing this up - I agree that some text about this should be in the document but I disagree on what it should say. imo - the IAOC members should not be compensated for their time but I think its reasonable for them to be reimbursed for expenses for travel to meetings not held in the same place and time as IETF meetings (or just before or after an IETF at the same location) - since I would hope that almost all of the work of the IAOC shoudl be done over the net or by phone I would not think this would come up that often but it might during startup (revaluating RFP responses for example) - doing this enables peopel who do not have strong money support to still be able to be on the IAOC I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. If we would decide to reimburse traveling I think we cannot make the distinction between meetings co-located with IETF or not. There will always be people to argue that they wouldn't or couldn't come to the IETF and travel to IAOC meetings during the IETF should also be reimbursed. Cheers, Jonne. Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. not everyone does I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. I agree - see my note - I do not think that face to face meetings are all that needed but might happen for special things However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. that limits who can be on the IAOC to people who can afford it not to those who would do the best job If we would decide to reimburse traveling I think we cannot make the distinction between meetings co-located with IETF or not. There will always be people to argue that they wouldn't or couldn't come to the IETF and travel to IAOC meetings during the IETF should also be reimbursed. I disagree - I do not think we should easily have people who do not come to the IETF on the IAOC deciding what is good for the IETF Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
I really wonder if you start re-imbursing, then I want to be re-imbursed too for my IESG services! Bert -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 19:57 To: ext Scott Bradner Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members Scott, On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:14, ext Scott Bradner wrote: thanks to Jonne for bringing this up - I agree that some text about this should be in the document but I disagree on what it should say. imo - the IAOC members should not be compensated for their time but I think its reasonable for them to be reimbursed for expenses for travel to meetings not held in the same place and time as IETF meetings (or just before or after an IETF at the same location) - since I would hope that almost all of the work of the IAOC shoudl be done over the net or by phone I would not think this would come up that often but it might during startup (revaluating RFP responses for example) - doing this enables peopel who do not have strong money support to still be able to be on the IAOC I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. If we would decide to reimburse traveling I think we cannot make the distinction between meetings co-located with IETF or not. There will always be people to argue that they wouldn't or couldn't come to the IETF and travel to IAOC meetings during the IETF should also be reimbursed. Cheers, Jonne. Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Jonne Soininen Nokia Tel: +358 40 527 46 34 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I maybe have too much a view point of someone working for a relatively large company. I try to approach this from a position where the IAOC itself does not become a significant cost for IASA. However, as these are the people that are responsible for setting the budget and supervising the finances of the IASA and there is no real owner to control the expenses it would be clearer to have the IAOC members being responsible for their own expenses. If we would decide to reimburse traveling I think we cannot make the distinction between meetings co-located with IETF or not. There will always be people to argue that they wouldn't or couldn't come to the IETF and travel to IAOC meetings during the IETF should also be reimbursed. Jonne, The argument you're making here is for a policy that IAOC members should be responsible for their own expenses. That's a perfectly reasonable policy, but the course of action you're arguing for is to write it into the BCP so that it can't be changed without extraordinary difficulty. Can you explain why you think that that's necessary? -Ekr ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
The other Scott's approach looks like it's clearly the most reasonable, and follows a model we have used before. No reimbursement for performance of services; no reimbursement for meetings that are associated with IETF; reimbursement for travel to special (not IETF-associated) meetings where necessary. As usual, we have to be careful not to get too specific. This might be just specific enough. swb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Soininen == Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Helsinki) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Soininen x.x IAOC members compensation for labor, travel, and Soininen other costs Soininen The IAOC membership is considered voluntary. Hence, the Soininen costs sustained by the members to participate in the Soininen IAOC are not be reimbursed by the IASA or the Soininen ISOC. These costs include but are not limited to time Soininen used to perform duties of IAOC, travel to face-to-face Soininen meetings and accommodation during the meetings, and Soininen long-distance calls to IAOC teleconferences. I don't know about IAB calls, but with some exceptions IESG members do not pay to participate in the telechats. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
imo - the IAOC members should not be compensated for their time but I think its reasonable for them to be reimbursed for expenses for travel to meetings not held in the same place and time as IETF meetings (or just before or after an IETF at the same location) - since I would hope that almost all of the work of the IAOC shoudl be done over the net or by phone I would not think this would come up that often but it might during startup (revaluating RFP responses for example) - doing this enables peopel who do not have strong money support to still be able to be on the IAOC The IESG also has meetings that are not scheduled in conjunction with IETF meetings (about two times per year, based on my short experience). And, the IAB has workshops and other meetings that are not scheduled before, during or after IETF meetings. Do you think that those expenses should also be reimbursed? What about IETF attendance for an IAOC, IESG or IAB member who is not currently employed? BTW, I am not worried about the ability to create a consistent travel policy. ISOC already has a well-documented travel reimbursement policy. Margaret ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
please do not read more into what I said than I said - I *only* meant what I said - nothing more (I have a hard time understanding how anyone could have misread what I said) I did not suggest any change to the non-reimbursment of IESG IAB expanses - nor did I intend to I expect the job of being an IAOC member will take little time and almost no travel (after maybe a startup phase) - someting that someone who was willing to put non-day-job time in could do - thus I'd like the maximum flexability in being able to get the right people and if that means paying expenses for one or two face to face meetings a year (if the IAOC feels that it must meet face to face other thna at an IETF meeting) it seems like a small price to pay Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Adminrest: BCP -03: Compensation for IAOC members
Sorry, Scott, I did not mean to imply that you had said anything more than you actually said. I was simply asking whether you (or others) though that non-IETF travel for IESG and IAB members should also be reimbursed if it is not covered by an employer. Personally, I don't understand why we would have a different reimbursement policy for IAOC members than for IESG and IAB members. The fact that an IAOC job may take less time than IESG or IAB participation does not seem, to me anyway, to be a reason why we should have a more generous reimbursement policy for the IAOC members. Margaret At 8:57 PM -0500 12/30/04, Scott Bradner wrote: please do not read more into what I said than I said - I *only* meant what I said - nothing more (I have a hard time understanding how anyone could have misread what I said) I did not suggest any change to the non-reimbursment of IESG IAB expanses - nor did I intend to I expect the job of being an IAOC member will take little time and almost no travel (after maybe a startup phase) - someting that someone who was willing to put non-day-job time in could do - thus I'd like the maximum flexability in being able to get the right people and if that means paying expenses for one or two face to face meetings a year (if the IAOC feels that it must meet face to face other thna at an IETF meeting) it seems like a small price to pay Scott ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
