Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Hi Brian, --On January 24, 2006 2:06:20 PM +0100 Brian E Carpenter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. it would be much appreciated, subject to financial limits, to have some wireless connectivity through Friday afternoon. It may be enough just to keep the terminal room open as long as possible (with both wired and wireless access only in that area) but allow wireless in the meeting rooms to be dismantled after all meetings are done. -- Cyrus Daboo ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Questionnaire [Re: IETFs... the final Friday?]
Ken Raeburn wrote: ... Finally, I noticed the IAD included a question about Friday meeting or not in the survey we were invited to on 9 January. Getting a sense of peoples' views quantitatively is good, though that was a self-selected group, rather than a random sample that could be assigned a statistical mapping to the IETF population. How about a questionnaire at the next IETF or two? (With collection going through Friday noon at least, of course.) Still somewhat self- selected, but it's reaching out specifically to those who attend regularly. I think we'll stick to an on-line survey; having people do their own data entry and having a computer add up the numbers saves a lot of clerical expense. We can discriminate in the survey between attendees and non-attendees. As for the self-selection bias that Allison notes, I'm afraid that is very hard to avoid without much more work. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Theodore Ts'o wrote: ... not to mention the cost of keeping the hotel rooms for the extra day or so. (Presumably if some or all of the wireless infrastructure is left running until Friday night, it means that at least some of the rooms can't get released back to the hotel until mid-day Saturday, and the volunteers will have to do some of the final teardown Saturday morning.) Teardown doesn't take so much time (from my last participation to it) that you couldn't postpone the final moment and still be able to remove it the same day. In addition, we're not necessarily talking about leaving it all up. It would be enough to leave a few Wifi spots and a couple of wired switches in/close to the terminal room, leaving a lot of space for teardown work (meeting rooms, most of the APs, cables, terminal room tables/switches/power/printers, backup links,...). Routers and other equipment would go last, but most of the work would already be done by then. So it doesn't have to be exactly noon, there is some wiggle room there. Regards, Julien. -- Julien Maisonneuve ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Let's not sweat the details on this list. We've got two points from this conversation: 1. it is good to have BOFs earlier in the week if possible, subject to scheduling constraints. 2. it would be much appreciated, subject to financial limits, to have some wireless connectivity through Friday afternoon. I'm sure the IAD will note these points for future planning. Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theodore Ts'o wrote: ... not to mention the cost of keeping the hotel rooms for the extra day or so. (Presumably if some or all of the wireless infrastructure is left running until Friday night, it means that at least some of the rooms can't get released back to the hotel until mid-day Saturday, and the volunteers will have to do some of the final teardown Saturday morning.) Teardown doesn't take so much time (from my last participation to it) that you couldn't postpone the final moment and still be able to remove it the same day. In addition, we're not necessarily talking about leaving it all up. It would be enough to leave a few Wifi spots and a couple of wired switches in/close to the terminal room, leaving a lot of space for teardown work (meeting rooms, most of the APs, cables, terminal room tables/switches/power/printers, backup links,...). Routers and other equipment would go last, but most of the work would already be done by then. So it doesn't have to be exactly noon, there is some wiggle room there. Regards, Julien. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Ack. Let's not sweat the details on this list. We've got two points from this conversation: 1. it is good to have BOFs earlier in the week if possible, subject to scheduling constraints. 2. it would be much appreciated, subject to financial limits, to have some wireless connectivity through Friday afternoon. I'm sure the IAD will note these points for future planning. Brian And thanks! Spencer ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
On 1/20/06 at 1:20 PM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: Tim Chown wrote: If you look back over past agendas, it's typically a day with around 3-5 meetings in one session to 11.30am, of which half or more are BoFs. Friday morning is part of the IETF. It's true that generally we schedule about half as many parallel sessions as during the rest of the week, but that means you only need to be in 4 places at once instead of 8 the rest of the time. The survey results indicate that we shouldn't extend to a full day on Friday, but scrapping those ~4 sessions would have serious impact on scehduling constraints earlier in the week. However, one of Tim's points is well-taken: We MUST stop scheduling BOFs when the likelihood of people attending drops. And saying Friday is a real day does no good if you put mostly BOFs on Friday. If you want people to stick around on Friday, put only the most important meetings then. (And no, I don't mind if my meetings are then. I'll be there anyway.) To the extent possible, BOFs should be early in the week so that they can be chewed on during the week. pr -- Pete Resnick http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/ QUALCOMM Incorporated ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Three comments on Friday scheduling: 1. In my scheduling struggle as AD, I've always needed Fridays pretty desperately, though I'm hopeful that with the RAI/TSV split, things will be better. 2. Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of the day. Anyone else find resonance with that? 3. Finally, I noticed the IAD included a question about Friday meeting or not in the survey we were invited to on 9 January. Getting a sense of peoples' views quantitatively is good, though that was a self-selected group, rather than a random sample that could be assigned a statistical mapping to the IETF population. Allison ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
On Jan 23, 2006, at 17:07, Allison Mankin wrote: 2. Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of the day. Anyone else find resonance with that? Definitely. Tearing it down at noon definitely gives the feeling of you're done, you should be gone now. 3. Finally, I noticed the IAD included a question about Friday meeting or not in the survey we were invited to on 9 January. Getting a sense of peoples' views quantitatively is good, though that was a self-selected group, rather than a random sample that could be assigned a statistical mapping to the IETF population. How about a questionnaire at the next IETF or two? (With collection going through Friday noon at least, of course.) Still somewhat self- selected, but it's reaching out specifically to those who attend regularly. Ken ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
On Jan 23, 2006, at 23:07, Allison Mankin wrote: Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of the day. Anyone else find resonance with that? Yes! Since HIPRG meets Friday afternoon and there are often no flights back to Europe after it ends, we typically have to stay until Saturday. (Then again, free wireless is pretty easy to find in most cities these days.) Lars -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Ken Raeburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Jan 23, 2006, at 17:07, Allison Mankin wrote: 2. Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of the day. Anyone else find resonance with that? Definitely. Tearing it down at noon definitely gives the feeling of you're done, you should be gone now. Totally agree. -Ekr ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
2. Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of the day. Anyone else find resonance with that? Oh, yeah. In addition to the people who mentioned RGs and ad hocs meeting on Friday afternoon, there really are a bunch of IETF people staying over Friday night for Saturday flights, but you can't find them, because the bars went offline after lunch, so they're all in their rooms :-) I've stayed for drafting sessions on Friday afternoons - we were the last people unplugged (thanks to the secretariat), but we were unplugged at about 2:30 PM, and we were a lot more productive when we were plugged in. There are IETF meeting sites where I've found reasonable non-IETF wireless on Friday afternoons and evenings, but it's not consistently there yet. I've also seen hotels offering Internet access, which turned out to be one computer that you couldn't unplug, in major cities within the last six months. Not at the hotels we have deals with, but not everyone can afford to stay at the official hotels... Thanks for asking, Allison, Spencer ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
To the extent possible, BOFs should be early in the week so that they can be chewed on during the week. This strikes me as a singularly useful point: Some meetings, such as BOFs, can be expected to generate (and warrant) follow-on hallway discussion. We should try to schedule those meetings to leave days for that. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking http://bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:07 PM, Allison Mankin wrote: Three comments on Friday scheduling: 1. In my scheduling struggle as AD, I've always needed Fridays pretty desperately, though I'm hopeful that with the RAI/TSV split, things will be better. 2. Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of the day. Anyone else find resonance with that? Yes, strongly. An afternoon social would not be out of place, either, I suspect. Maybe a beer and gear could be arranged with sponsors. Of course, the volunteers probably want to get out of town ASAP, so it's a balancing act. Regards Marshall Eubanks 3. Finally, I noticed the IAD included a question about Friday meeting or not in the survey we were invited to on 9 January. Getting a sense of peoples' views quantitatively is good, though that was a self-selected group, rather than a random sample that could be assigned a statistical mapping to the IETF population. Allison ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
An afternoon social would not be out of place, either, I suspect. Maybe a beer and gear could be arranged with sponsors. What a fine idea! Maybe since it would be after the working IETF time, we could get away with the gear part; to my knowledge (not perfect) we've historically not agreed to showcases etc in proximity to the meetings. Of course, the volunteers probably want to get out of town ASAP, so it's a balancing act. Indeed. After a hard week. So this would have to be thought through and triaged. Allison Allison ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:30 PM, Allison Mankin wrote: An afternoon social would not be out of place, either, I suspect. Maybe a beer and gear could be arranged with sponsors. What a fine idea! Maybe since it would be after the working IETF time, we could get away with the gear part; to my knowledge (not perfect) we've historically not agreed to showcases etc in proximity to the meetings. Exactly. Marshall Of course, the volunteers probably want to get out of town ASAP, so it's a balancing act. Indeed. After a hard week. So this would have to be thought through and triaged. Allison Allison ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
IETFs... the final Friday?
Hi, Has there been any discussion in the upper echelons of the IETF about the issue of Friday sessions? If you look back over past agendas, it's typically a day with around 3-5 meetings in one session to 11.30am, of which half or more are BoFs. Is this likely to continue, such that if you're from a different continent to the host, and you choose to travel home on Friday to get home a day earlier and save a little hotel money, you stand a (slim) chance of missing a WG session you'd like to attend? Personally I would be happy to travel back Saturday if I knew Friday was a fullish day, but as it is it's neither here nor there really... thoughts? -- Tim/::1 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IETFs... the final Friday?
Tim, The web site says: We start Monday morning and run through Friday lunchtime, with late scheduling changes. Newcomer's training and technical tutorials takes place the previous Sunday afternoon. Participants should plan their travel accordingly. Friday morning is part of the IETF. It's true that generally we schedule about half as many parallel sessions as during the rest of the week, but that means you only need to be in 4 places at once instead of 8 the rest of the time. The survey results indicate that we shouldn't extend to a full day on Friday, but scrapping those ~4 sessions would have serious impact on scehduling constraints earlier in the week. Brian Tim Chown wrote: Hi, Has there been any discussion in the upper echelons of the IETF about the issue of Friday sessions? If you look back over past agendas, it's typically a day with around 3-5 meetings in one session to 11.30am, of which half or more are BoFs. Is this likely to continue, such that if you're from a different continent to the host, and you choose to travel home on Friday to get home a day earlier and save a little hotel money, you stand a (slim) chance of missing a WG session you'd like to attend? Personally I would be happy to travel back Saturday if I knew Friday was a fullish day, but as it is it's neither here nor there really... thoughts? ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
