Re: Proceeding CDs
IETF Administrative Director wrote: > Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? No opinion - but on a related issue: Some slide shows are very interesting, and the HTML output of Powerpoint is *_MUCH_* better than huge PDFs. Frank ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is preparing the 2007 budget and would like feedback on whether > or not to continue producing the IETF meeting CDs of the Proceedings. > > It has been suggested as a way of employing limited Secretariat labor > more productively that the IAOC discontinue production of the Proceedings > on CDs and, instead, make the files available collectively on the web site > for each meeting in a zip file for downloading. If you do so, make sure there is at least a tar.gz also. > > Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? > > Ray Pelletier > IAD > > ___ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > sleekfreak pirate broadcast http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
Does anyone know of any libraries that attempt to acquire / archive a complete set of IETF proceedings ? They might not read this list and should be contacted directly in my opinion. Regards Marshall On Oct 6, 2006, at 1:01 PM, shogunx wrote: On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is preparing the 2007 budget and would like feedback on whether or not to continue producing the IETF meeting CDs of the Proceedings. It has been suggested as a way of employing limited Secretariat labor more productively that the IAOC discontinue production of the Proceedings on CDs and, instead, make the files available collectively on the web site for each meeting in a zip file for downloading. If you do so, make sure there is at least a tar.gz also. Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? Ray Pelletier IAD ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf sleekfreak pirate broadcast http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is preparing the 2007 budget and would like feedback on whether or not to continue producing the IETF meeting CDs of the Proceedings. It has been suggested as a way of employing limited Secretariat labor more productively that the IAOC discontinue production of the Proceedings on CDs and, instead, make the files available collectively on the web site for each meeting in a zip file for downloading. Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? No. IMO, free online retrieval of IETF proceedings is sufficient. Spend the time and money on something more important. My 2 cents on data format: If I really wanted to have a CD of the proceedings, then I would want to retrieve a .iso file from the archive. (Moving from the Print Era to the Electronic Age is hard... I just recycled my collection of paper IETF proceedings a year ago. I bet some of you still have every one!) Ray Pelletier IAD Andy ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
At 01:57 PM 10/6/2006, Andy Bierman wrote: If I really wanted to have a CD of the proceedings, then I would want to retrieve a .iso file from the archive. Actually, I *like* this option a lot. I don't see any reason to continue to produce the CDs, but I do see a need for a permanent archival form and having an ISO I could download and burn (or mount for that matter) makes a lot of sense. Mike ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Proceeding CDs
It makes sense now, but will it make sense in 10 years? With today's DVD technology, is it completely unlikely that ISO CD formats may not be supported by then? Is it not possible that CDs will go the way of 8-track tapes, beta-max, and 3.25 " floppy and 100 Mega-byte Zip drives? I can store more data on a memory stick than I can on a CD. In 10 years, I expect I'll be able to store as much as 20 times the data of a CD on a stick - and I don't think the stick uses the ISO format. It would be a shame to have to support an "ISO format converter" in 10 years so that people could access the older IETF documents and proceedings... -- Eric --> -Original Message- --> From: Michael C. StJohns [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 2:14 PM --> To: Andy Bierman; [EMAIL PROTECTED] --> Cc: ietf@ietf.org --> Subject: Re: Proceeding CDs --> --> At 01:57 PM 10/6/2006, Andy Bierman wrote: --> >If I really wanted to have a CD of the proceedings, --> >then I would want to retrieve a .iso file from the archive. --> --> Actually, I *like* this option a lot. --> --> I don't see any reason to continue to produce the CDs, but --> I do see a --> need for a permanent archival form and having an ISO I --> could download --> and burn (or mount for that matter) makes a lot of sense. --> --> Mike --> --> --> ___ --> Ietf mailing list --> Ietf@ietf.org --> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Proceeding CDs
New production of CDs for music will probably end in 10 or so years, but not much earlier - I don't know that the discussion to end them is even taking place yet - you have to have a replacement technology well penetrated in the market before you stop the old stuff. But the successor to CDs (DVD, HD-DVD) drives will still be able to read CDs. And an ISO is just a set of bits - I don't expect the drivers that allow us to read such a set of bits to go away soon. Given the choice between ZIP and ISO, I'd choose iso because I can either burn it or mount it. As for the memory stick, its just a storage device, not a storage format. Its oranges to the apples discussion of zip vs ISO vs PDF vs etc... At 02:26 PM 10/6/2006, Gray, Eric wrote: It makes sense now, but will it make sense in 10 years? With today's DVD technology, is it completely unlikely that ISO CD formats may not be supported by then? Is it not possible that CDs will go the way of 8-track tapes, beta-max, and 3.25 " floppy and 100 Mega-byte Zip drives? I can store more data on a memory stick than I can on a CD. In 10 years, I expect I'll be able to store as much as 20 times the data of a CD on a stick - and I don't think the stick uses the ISO format. It would be a shame to have to support an "ISO format converter" in 10 years so that people could access the older IETF documents and proceedings... -- Eric --> -Original Message- --> From: Michael C. StJohns [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 2:14 PM --> To: Andy Bierman; [EMAIL PROTECTED] --> Cc: ietf@ietf.org --> Subject: Re: Proceeding CDs --> --> At 01:57 PM 10/6/2006, Andy Bierman wrote: --> >If I really wanted to have a CD of the proceedings, --> >then I would want to retrieve a .iso file from the archive. --> --> Actually, I *like* this option a lot. --> --> I don't see any reason to continue to produce the CDs, but --> I do see a --> need for a permanent archival form and having an ISO I --> could download --> and burn (or mount for that matter) makes a lot of sense. --> --> Mike --> --> --> ___ --> Ietf mailing list --> Ietf@ietf.org --> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Proceeding CDs
--On Friday, 06 October, 2006 14:26 -0400 "Gray, Eric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It makes sense now, but will it make sense in 10 years? > > With today's DVD technology, is it completely unlikely > that ISO CD formats may not be supported by then? Is it > not possible that CDs will go the way of 8-track tapes, > beta-max, and 3.25 " floppy and 100 Mega-byte Zip drives? > > I can store more data on a memory stick than I can on a > CD. In 10 years, I expect I'll be able to store as much > as 20 times the data of a CD on a stick - and I don't > think the stick uses the ISO format. > > It would be a shame to have to support an "ISO format > converter" in 10 years so that people could access the > older IETF documents and proceedings... Eric, I made a suggestion similar to Andy's and Mike's in a offlist note to Ray. I also suggested doing it as well as the ZIP file, not instead of it -- the marginal costs in terms of storage or production would not be large and it seems to me that they meet the needs of different audiences. Ultimately, an ISO CD image is good for only one thing, which is producing CDs, and a compact format where individual files are more accessible is clearly a good idea. To my knowledge, no one has suggested discontinuing the current online HTML accessibility either. Beyond that, while I understand the concerns you list, one could make the same observations about HTML (and make the same "size of installed base" argument for CDs that most of us would make about HTML).One needs to be conservative, but not to get ridiculous. Remember that there was no particular reason to assume that zip-format files would last when they were first introduced, or that the format would survive its author (several other archive formats of the time basically didn't). Speaking as someone who can still read and write 9-track tapes (but not 8 track), 100 Mb ZIP disks, and 3 1/2 (and 5 1/4) inch diskettes. :-) ... john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
On Fri, Oct 06, 2006 at 02:26:23PM -0400, Gray, Eric wrote: > It makes sense now, but will it make sense in 10 years? > > With today's DVD technology, is it completely unlikely > that ISO CD formats may not be supported by then? Is it > not possible that CDs will go the way of 8-track tapes, > beta-max, and 3.25 " floppy and 100 Mega-byte Zip drives? I didn't understand the suggestion to be "produce *only* an ISO image." -- Ted Faber http://www.isi.edu/~faber PGP: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkeys.asc Unexpected attachment on this mail? See http://www.isi.edu/~faber/FAQ.html#SIG pgp2f0LCEFbVS.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 06:35:15PM -0400, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is preparing the 2007 budget and would like feedback on whether > or not to continue producing the IETF meeting CDs of the Proceedings. > > It has been suggested as a way of employing limited Secretariat labor > more productively that the IAOC discontinue production of the Proceedings > on CDs and, instead, make the files available collectively on the web site > for each meeting in a zip file for downloading. > > Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? > > Ray Pelletier > IAD > > ___ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf i've been told that it is often useful to have a token of the money that was spent. and for some, the hardcopy proceedings filled the bill nicely. The CD, while not quite the same impact for mgmt, does provide a tangible token of participation. Remove that, and the question might be asked? "What do we get for our money?" more often. --bill ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
On 6-Oct-2006, at 14:26, Gray, Eric wrote: It makes sense now, but will it make sense in 10 years? If there is concern about a permanent archive, then surely this is entirely orthogonal to the question of whether to burn things to scratch-prone, flimsy plastic discs. To give information a good shot at being available for a long time, make sure it's widely distributed. If there was a straightforward way for entities such as universities, libraries, and dedicated archival and data indexing companies, ISPs and interested individuals to mirror the proceedings in an automated and robust fashion, I'm sure it would happen on a grand scale. This kind of distribution, coupled with document formats which are as open and plain as possible (ASCII!), seems like the best way to ensure that the material is preserved on as many different types of media and filesystem as possible. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
On Fri, Oct 06, 2006 at 10:56:51PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Remove that, and the question might be asked? "What do we get for > our money?" more often. Are you suggesting that proceeding CD's are actually a valid answer to this question, or that people should merely be convinced to ask this question less frequently by any means available other than actually providing answers? -- ISC Training! October 16-20, 2006, in the San Francisco Bay Area, covering topics from DNS to DDNS & DHCP. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- David W. Hankins"If you don't do it right the first time, Software Engineer you'll just have to do it again." Internet Systems Consortium, Inc. -- Jack T. Hankins pgpaoLTjtfkUZ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
On Oct 7, 2006, at 0:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i've been told that it is often useful to have a token of the money that was spent. and for some, the hardcopy proceedings filled the bill nicely. The CD, while not quite the same impact for mgmt, does provide a tangible token of participation. Remove that, and the question might be asked? "What do we get for our money?" more often. the T-shirt, of course :-) Lars -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
To be honest, if the corporate sponsor doesn't know the answer to that level of question, they fundamentally don't get it. I have left companies over that level of disconnectedness before, and they in each case (note the plural) have departed from the industry not far behind. On Oct 7, 2006, at 1:15 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: On Oct 7, 2006, at 0:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i've been told that it is often useful to have a token of the money that was spent. and for some, the hardcopy proceedings filled the bill nicely. The CD, while not quite the same impact for mgmt, does provide a tangible token of participation. Remove that, and the question might be asked? "What do we get for our money?" more often. the T-shirt, of course :-) Lars -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
CDs of Proceedings always seemed like an excellent idea but: - sometimes they never arrived - I cannot ever recall them arriving in good time, that is closer to the time of the meeting they relate to than to that of the next meeting. Tom Petch - Original Message - From: "IETF Administrative Director" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:35 AM Subject: Proceeding CDs > The IAOC is preparing the 2007 budget and would like feedback on whether > or not to continue producing the IETF meeting CDs of the Proceedings. > > It has been suggested as a way of employing limited Secretariat labor > more productively that the IAOC discontinue production of the Proceedings > on CDs and, instead, make the files available collectively on the web site > for each meeting in a zip file for downloading. > > Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? > > Ray Pelletier > IAD > > ___ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Proceeding CDs
Is there strong rationale for maintaining production of the CDs? No. IMO, free online retrieval of IETF proceedings is sufficient. Spend the time and money on something more important. I agree. - Stewart ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
