[Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kapil Hari Paranjape]

Hello,

Malaysia and Vietnam have gone for large scale FOSS adoption.
 http://english.vietnamnet.vn/tech/2009/01/822425/
Is the MIT, GOI listening?

Kapil.
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009 7:20:53 am Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> Malaysia and Vietnam have gone for large scale FOSS adoption.
>  http://english.vietnamnet.vn/tech/2009/01/822425/
> Is the MIT, GOI listening?

it is DIT - please bring this to the attention of DIT.

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KG
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Arun Kumar Khan]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009, Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Malaysia and Vietnam have gone for large scale FOSS adoption.
>  http://english.vietnamnet.vn/tech/2009/01/822425/
> Is the MIT, GOI listening?
>

I suppose GOI == Govt. of India and MIT == Mass. Inst. of Tech?

Anyway, as for GOI (and PSUs under it), forget FOSS adoption; even open 
standards adoption is lip service.  Otherwise, we would not have broken 
e-governance sites (i.e. requiring MS Windows/IE combo to conduct 
business with the govt./psu).  Ditto for the states.

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Arun Khan

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009 9:52:14 am Arun Kumar Khan wrote:
> On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009, Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Malaysia and Vietnam have gone for large scale FOSS adoption.
> >  http://english.vietnamnet.vn/tech/2009/01/822425/
> > Is the MIT, GOI listening?
>
> I suppose GOI == Govt. of India and MIT == Mass. Inst. of Tech?

MIT = Ministry of Information Technology (actually it is DIT, Department of 
Information Technology under MCIT)
>
> Anyway, as for GOI (and PSUs under it), forget FOSS adoption; even open
> standards adoption is lip service.  Otherwise, we would not have broken
> e-governance sites (i.e. requiring MS Windows/IE combo to conduct
> business with the govt./psu).  Ditto for the states.

ever heard of NRC-FOSS?

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KG
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Arun Kumar Khan]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009 9:52:14 am Arun Kumar Khan wrote:
> > On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009, Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Malaysia and Vietnam have gone for large scale FOSS adoption.
> > >  http://english.vietnamnet.vn/tech/2009/01/822425/
> > > Is the MIT, GOI listening?
> >
> > I suppose GOI == Govt. of India and MIT == Mass. Inst. of Tech?
>
> MIT = Ministry of Information Technology (actually it is DIT,
> Department of Information Technology under MCIT)

From what I have seen it is Ministry of Information and 
Telecommunications and commonly referred to as DoT, please see 


> > Anyway, as for GOI (and PSUs under it), forget FOSS adoption; even
> > open standards adoption is lip service.  Otherwise, we would not
> > have broken e-governance sites (i.e. requiring MS Windows/IE combo
> > to conduct business with the govt./psu).  Ditto for the states.
>
> ever heard of NRC-FOSS?

Yes, I have heard of it and your point is?

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Arun Khan

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Arun Kumar Khan]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009, Arun Kumar Khan wrote:

>
> From what I have seen it is Ministry of Information and
> Telecommunications 

Oops, it is Ministry of Communications and Information Technology.

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kapil Hari Paranjape]

Hello,

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Arun Kumar Khan wrote:
> Anyway, as for GOI (and PSUs under it), forget FOSS adoption; even open 
> standards adoption is lip service.  Otherwise, we would not have broken 
> e-governance sites (i.e. requiring MS Windows/IE combo to conduct 
> business with the govt./psu).  Ditto for the states.

I would not blame the government entirely for the latter. Most of the
time they outsource to our "software giants" most of whom produce the
websites in this broken fashion. (Note that infosys and tcs also
use IIS servers though their pages are less broken).

Of course, you could ask that the officers of the government become
more aware about computers and perhaps hire people to develop sites
for them. We have already see how poorly banks fare in this regard so
I would not wait for that to happen.

What is *required* is that centres like nic.in which are *supposed* to
help the government in setting up the sites do a little more homework
before outsourcing their work or before doing it themselves.

I basically agree with your mail that even while we worry about FOSS
adoption, a more basic thing is to ask for standards compliance in
e-governance.

Kapil.
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009 10:52:26 am Arun Kumar Khan wrote:
> > From what I have seen it is Ministry of Information and
> > Telecommunications
>
> Oops, it is Ministry of Communications and Information Technology.

as I said - MCIT.

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009 10:57:52 am Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> What is *required* is that centres like nic.in which are *supposed* to
> help the government in setting up the sites do a little more homework
> before outsourcing their work or before doing it themselves.

given the present salary structure, the governent cannot afford to employ 
competent programmers. Max that NIC or CDAC pay is between 14-25K a month. 
The moment a person gets some experience, he leaves for the private sector. 
The max that NRC-FOSS pays for an engineering graduate is 14K and for a MSc 
is 18K - go figure.

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kapil Hari Paranjape]

Hello,

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> it is DIT - please bring this to the attention of DIT.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> MIT = Ministry of Information Technology (actually it is DIT, Department of 
> Information Technology under MCIT)

Thanks for the corrections.

Kapil.
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[satyaakam goswami]

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Arun Kumar Khan wrote:
> > Anyway, as for GOI (and PSUs under it), forget FOSS adoption; even open
> > standards adoption is lip service.  Otherwise, we would not have broken
> > e-governance sites (i.e. requiring MS Windows/IE combo to conduct
> > business with the govt./psu).  Ditto for the states.
>
> I would not blame the government entirely for the latter. Most of the
> time they outsource to our "software giants" most of whom produce the
> websites in this broken fashion. (Note that infosys and tcs also
> use IIS servers though their pages are less broken).
>

Most of them are not outsourced but are done using out of date employees and
intern students .To earn brownie points.


> Of course, you could ask that the officers of the government become
> more aware about computers and perhaps hire people to develop sites
> for them. We have already see how poorly banks fare in this regard so
> I would not wait for that to happen.


No zeal left to learn , Fag end of there careers ,  Trying to Keep political
bossses  happy, No budgets so how do you propose to pull this one.

>
> What is *required* is that centres like nic.in which are *supposed* to
> help the government in setting up the sites do a little more homework
> before outsourcing their work or before doing it themselves.
>

As i said the Vendors are all over the place and they make it happen , So
the so called Govt Babu is happy in getting things done and earning the
brownie points than tinkering with Foss Solutions.There has been some
successes though in this direction but they are far and few.


> I basically agree with your mail that even while we worry about FOSS
> adoption, a more basic thing is to ask for standards compliance in
> e-governance.
>
>
Agreed but what happens when people are overwhelmed with thousands of pages
of documents and standards talk . The sales or presales person on the field
makes a fast killing in locking in the application early on,  so that the
Legacy continues to Live on ever after, and there company makes money year
after year.


-Satya
http://www.linkedin.com/in/satyaakam
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Vamsee Kanakala]

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
given the present salary structure, the governent cannot afford to employ 
competent programmers. Max that NIC or CDAC pay is between 14-25K a month. 
The moment a person gets some experience, he leaves for the private sector. 
The max that NRC-FOSS pays for an engineering graduate is 14K and for a MSc 
is 18K - go figure.
  


I know this is armchair advice, but I think govt. institutions have a 
crucial difference from regular companies - they don't have a profit 
motive. If you make a BHAG (big, hairy, audacious goal) and promote it 
like crazy in the newspapers, I think there plenty of competent 
programmers who are willing to give it a go even at the risk of lesser 
salaries.


As I said, I might be completely off my rocker here, but when people can 
spend their free time writing code so that it will benefit the 
'community', why can't we engage the same idealistic sentiments for 
improving governance? The key, I think, is providing alternative reward 
system - viz., recognition. Or, if I can dare to be even more 
optimistic, probably just a big, crazy enough goal will do :).


Somehow I have a feeling that can work, because I've recently seen a 
couple of my close friends get actively involved with an NGO, even 
taking time off from their very well-paying jobs. Listening to their 
stories, plenty more are helping them, at least part-time. Even I'm 
tempted to go check out the place. So perhaps, it's just a matter of 
framing of a worthy goal and savvy marketing? Just my 2 paise :)


V.
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 14 Jan 2009 3:48:12 pm Vamsee Kanakala wrote:
> > given the present salary structure, the governent cannot afford to employ
> > competent programmers. Max that NIC or CDAC pay is between 14-25K a
> > month. The moment a person gets some experience, he leaves for the
> > private sector. The max that NRC-FOSS pays for an engineering graduate is
> > 14K and for a MSc is 18K - go figure.
> >  
>
> I know this is armchair advice, but I think govt. institutions have a
> crucial difference from regular companies - they don't have a profit
> motive. If you make a BHAG (big, hairy, audacious goal) and promote it
> like crazy in the newspapers, I think there plenty of competent
> programmers who are willing to give it a go even at the risk of lesser
> salaries.

there are lots of idealistic people who are (or say they are) willing to work 
for lesser salaries. But 14K a month is too much of a drop for them. In three 
years I have found only *one* person who was willing to do so. (And he took a 
drop from 30K to 14K). A few others are around - but they have EMI burdens. 



-- 
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KG
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Shuveb Hussain]

Hi,

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Vamsee Kanakala  wrote:

>
> As I said, I might be completely off my rocker here, but when people can
> spend their free time writing code so that it will benefit the 'community',
> why can't we engage the same idealistic sentiments for improving governance?
> The key, I think, is providing alternative reward system - viz.,
> recognition. Or, if I can dare to be even more optimistic, probably just a
> big, crazy enough goal will do :).


Vamsee, as I understand, good software takes a lot of time to write. Writing
good software during "free time" is an incredibly difficult proposition. For
many important open source projects, the contributions come from people who
are trying to satisfy customers or release cycles with open source software
and get paid in the process by companies like RedHat and IBM. The end result
is that there is good quality open source software available that is done
on-the-job. For example, the most significant contributors to the kernel are
corporates.

I am very interested to see how the recognition based reward system will
work, it is a brilliant suggestion. But like Kenneth says, 14K in Chennai is
tough for survival and with a family, you can just forget all about it. The
point is that organizations must pay enough money so that money is no longer
a problem. With financial issues looming large, I don't see how the poor
guys can even think.

Cheers,
-- 
Shuveb Hussain

Any technology sufficiently advanced
is indistinguishable from magic.
   - Arthur C. Clarke

Ibn 'Umar said "The Messenger of God, may God bless him
and grant him peace, took me by the shoulder and said,
'Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller on the road.'"
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Hadith 425
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Parthan SR]

Shuveb Hussain wrote:

, 14K in Chennai is
tough for survival and with a family, you can just forget all about it. 
  
Well, 14k in Chennai is as good as earning 25k in Bangalore, and if you 
don't  have *your own family* it is very much possible to survive 
happily. It might not be the best option for long time but for a year or 
two, especially when you ought to be looking for gaining experience, a 
14k job is more than enough.


--
---
With Regards,

Parthan "technofreak"
  2FF01026
 http://blog.technofreak.in

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 9:30:17 am Shuveb Hussain wrote:
> > recognition. Or, if I can dare to be even more optimistic, probably just
> > a big, crazy enough goal will do :).
>
> Vamsee, as I understand, good software takes a lot of time to write.
> Writing good software during "free time" is an incredibly difficult
> proposition. For many important open source projects, the contributions
> come from people who are trying to satisfy customers or release cycles with
> open source software and get paid in the process by companies like RedHat
> and IBM. The end result is that there is good quality open source software
> available that is done on-the-job. For example, the most significant
> contributors to the kernel are corporates.

I am constantly amazed at the amount of time people have free to write 
software - good software. Makes me wonder when these guys sleep (if they 
sleep). I am mostly a watcher of django and wxPython and the python community 
in general. Most of the developers have full time jobs - fortunately for them 
the jobs usually involve the open source projects they are contributing to, 
so their free time development work also complements their full time job 
work.

And we have quite a few sleepless ones in India too - like Gopal from Yahoo! 
who does overtime work in Yahoo! and finds time for quality work in other 
projects. So people contributing in their free time is viable. But to what 
are they going to contribute? Even if the govt uses/develops open source for 
e-governance, the very nature of govt is to keep it secret and bar outside 
contributions. To date, barring a few minor things released by NRC-FOSS no 
government (or university or scientific institute in India has released 
anything as open source) - so even if free time developers are available, 
they have nothing to code on.

The other option is to develop open source egovernance software and get the 
governments to use it. This is also a no-go, because government is bound by 
the tender system of purchase of software - and open source software does not 
fit in here. The only exception I have seen is Sahana - and the adoption of 
that by various governments is mainly due to the backing of IBM.

-- 
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KG
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 9:59:52 am Parthan SR wrote:
> > , 14K in Chennai is
> > tough for survival and with a family, you can just forget all about it.
> >  
>
> Well, 14k in Chennai is as good as earning 25k in Bangalore, and if you
> don't  have *your own family* it is very much possible to survive
> happily. It might not be the best option for long time but for a year or
> two, especially when you ought to be looking for gaining experience, a
> 14k job is more than enough.

yes, precisely, the people we get are freshers who want experience - not much 
use for writing quality software. What we need are experienced people who 
want to take a sabbatical.

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Vamsee Kanakala]

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
What we need are experienced people who 
want to take a sabbatical.
  


Perhaps that's where the answer lies for both Shuveb's question and 
yours. Perhaps an organization like NRC-FOSS can have tie-ups with 
companies wherein employees can take an year's sabbatical and work on 
governance related projects. Looking at the current financial situation, 
I think companies should be open to this. They would obviously love to 
save money and look good at the same time.


Also, making it a short-term plan would encourage more experienced 
programmers with less commitments to try this out, without significant 
financial risk on their part.


V.

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Venkatraman S]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Vamsee Kanakala wrote:

> Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
>
>> What we need are experienced people who want to take a sabbatical.
>>
>>
>
> Perhaps that's where the answer lies for both Shuveb's question and yours.
> Perhaps an organization like NRC-FOSS can have tie-ups with companies
> wherein employees can take an year's sabbatical and work on governance
> related projects. Looking at the current financial situation, I think
> companies should be open to this. They would obviously love to save money
> and look good at the same time.
>

The the larger question is the Indian Societal Structure and the
distance-factor that good-programmers(geeks) have from it.
Sabbaticals are still a dream (according to me) for many Indians - even
those Indians who are overseas.  For ex. I had quit my job and wandered
around, and got asked a zillion times as to what was wrong with me and
whether i was laid off or not.
Loss-of-pay is  considered a sin, and is primarily either for honeymoon or
maternal-leave.

Not referring to the 'programming scene' alone, but the same scenario exists
with backpackers/traveling. Not many go on dollar-a-day backpacking. And the
general travel bloggers that you see around(barring a few) are the ones who
stay in all the expensive hotels and wander around in the most crowded
places.From the travels that i have had, i clearly realized that you can at
the max show a person a door, it is for him to go and open it.

Am sure NRC-FOSS has a long way to go.

PS: I like this thread, for it has some genuine ideas and likes to tackle
the problem, than shouting arbit and yap(like in #linux-india)

-V-
http://twitter.com/venkat83
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 11:55:57 am Venkatraman S wrote:
> > related projects. Looking at the current financial situation, I think
> > companies should be open to this. They would obviously love to save money
> > and look good at the same time.
>
> The the larger question is the Indian Societal Structure and the
> distance-factor that good-programmers(geeks) have from it.
> Sabbaticals are still a dream (according to me) for many Indians - even
> those Indians who are overseas.  For ex. I had quit my job and wandered
> around, and got asked a zillion times as to what was wrong with me and
> whether i was laid off or not.
> Loss-of-pay is  considered a sin, and is primarily either for honeymoon or
> maternal-leave.

true - my nephews in New Zealand took around ten years to qualify as doctors 
as they kept taking a year off to travel or to work with the 
underpriviledged. Even now, they keep taking a year or two off from their 
jobs now and then.

>
> Not referring to the 'programming scene' alone, but the same scenario
> exists with backpackers/traveling. Not many go on dollar-a-day backpacking.
> And the general travel bloggers that you see around(barring a few) are the
> ones who stay in all the expensive hotels and wander around in the most
> crowded places.From the travels that i have had, i clearly realized that
> you can at the max show a person a door, it is for him to go and open it.

also true
>
> Am sure NRC-FOSS has a long way to go.
>
> PS: I like this thread, for it has some genuine ideas and likes to tackle
> the problem, than shouting arbit and yap(like in #linux-india)

well, there are a lot of good guys with sound ideas on #linux-india. I had 
this same sabbatical discussion there. People from the much higher levels of 
employment *do* on occasion take time off, and are able to get re-employed 
when they come back. But not the general run of person. I have tempted a lot 
of people, but at the last moment they get scared and back off. 



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KG
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Vamsee Kanakala]

Venkatraman S wrote:

The the larger question is the Indian Societal Structure and the
distance-factor that good-programmers(geeks) have from it.
Sabbaticals are still a dream (according to me) for many Indians


Well, don't get me started on the 'Indian Societal Structure' - from 
what I've seen so far, it's thoroughly corruptible and hypocritical to 
boot. I see no reason any young people of this generation should give a 
rat's behind about it. If the Indian society can learn how a global 
recession feels like, sure enough, they can learn to live with 
sabbaticals too :).



V.

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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Sujith]

Vamsee Kanakala wrote:
> Well, don't get me started on the 'Indian Societal Structure' - from 
> what I've seen so far, it's thoroughly corruptible and hypocritical to 
> boot. I see no reason any young people of this generation should give a 
> rat's behind about it. If the Indian society can learn how a global 
> recession feels like, sure enough, they can learn to live with 
> sabbaticals too :).
> 

'rat's behind' ?
See, that is hypocritical too.
'Rat's ass' rolls of the tongue nice and easy. :-)

Sujith
-- 
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Vamsee Kanakala]

Sujith wrote:

'rat's behind' ?
See, that is hypocritical too.
'Rat's ass' rolls of the tongue nice and easy. :-)
  


Heh. Just being considerate towards spam filters, but you might have a 
point there :)



V.
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 8:07:11 pm Sujith wrote:
> > rat's behind about it. If the Indian society can learn how a global
> > recession feels like, sure enough, they can learn to live with
> > sabbaticals too :).
>
> 'rat's behind' ?
> See, that is hypocritical too.
> 'Rat's ass' rolls of the tongue nice and easy.

actually the term is 'dont give a rats f**k'

-- 
regards
KG
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
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Re: [Ilugc] Anyone at MIT, GOI listening?

[Selvakumar Rajeswaran]

Guys,
To make things happen & turn each and every stone, actual transformations, 
reformations (say in Indian socieal structure as someone pointed out...) and 
essential systems need to be in place.
 
Essential systems could be like sabbaticals, promoting entrepreneurs & new 
ventures, incubating new ideas etc.
 
Only when there is a real economics and a real eco-system revolving around 
whatever avenues you think of (like sabbaticals) for mobilising something 
related to FOSS, you can minimize your 'distance-factor'.
 
Thanks,
Selva.



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